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Can we talk about being guilt tripped for wanting to be feminine?

February 5, 2021
168 upvotes

Do you also remember the answer "why do you care?" when you asked the question "what does he want?"

Do you also remember the question "why do you need a man to define who you are?" when you wanted to talk about wanting a boyfriend, husband or partner?

Do you remember the question "why don't you feel pretty the way you naturally are?" "why do you even want to be pretty?" when you asked about what you should wear or which make up to apply for a date?

Do you remember the question "why do you not love and respect yourself?" when you asked if and what you could have done better, after an argument or after a break up?

They sound like questions that seem to have your best, your feeling of self-worth at heart, but in fact they direct you away from what you actually need to understand in order to learn, improve and become better. They teach you that it is wrong wanting to be loved by a man. They direct you towards believing that love can be demanded, that love is deserved, irrespective of how unlovable one acts. They even deny that unlovable exists. They will feed your anger if you don't improve and fail again and again because everybody rejects your attempts of trying to understand what you could do better. They all have in common that they assume that what you want is wrong and make you feel bad and guilty for wanting to be feminine and loved.

Essentially they will make you feel as if you cannot be loved because they deny you the right to become who and how you want to be.

And usually they are asked by those people that will stab you in the back as soon as you don't meet THEIR expectations.

Update: Since I feel that my intention might not have been clear. The OP refers to the thoughts and feedback that I and probably many other women were growing up with. It was an evironment and mindset with that I constantly had to defend myself against the accusation of being a doormat, not respecting myself enough, or thinking too much when I questioned the "as soon as he loves you", "you just have to find the right one" narrative. It creates insecurity and guilt for the most natural desire to please ones partner or to seek harmony. These statements serve as examples for the subtle way in which the appeal to self-love and self-respect are used as manipulative instruments to justify hostility and mistrust against the man with whom one might spent a life-time.

It is easy to ignore this as soon as one understands the redpill. For a BP girl those statements are relationship and love destructors.

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Post Information
Title Can we talk about being guilt tripped for wanting to be feminine?
Author DelicateDevelopment
Upvotes 168
Comments 80
Date February 5, 2021 9:18 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/can-we-talk-about-being-guilt-tripped-for-wanting.1192976
https://theredarchive.com/post/1192976
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/ldhkam/can_we_talk_about_being_guilt_tripped_for_wanting/
Red Pill terms in post
Comments

[–]IcarusKiki 38 points39 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I’m lucky but I’ve never experienced this. My friends can be envious low key but they’re definitely supportive of me. Maybe try finding more feminine like minded friends? However if you are constantly whining I could see why they try to placate you. One of the laws of power is to keep your self improvement to yourself and grow quietly

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow, I love 'keep your self improvement to yourself and grow quietly'. Great words!!

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

It's not just friends IRL. You will see the same answers here on RPW. On a recent post about being overdressed, the top voted comment is "Who cares? Dress for yourself. It's 2021"

One of the laws of power is to keep your self improvement to yourself and grow quietly

Is that why you are here, commenting on self improvement posts?

[–]IcarusKiki 5 points6 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

I mean irl. On an anonymous Internet forum dedicated to self improvement it’s fine just not to friends or people you have serious relationships with. Also it seems like that comment was deleted, still not sure how “do what you want” is anti-feminine. Do you want your friends to criticize you? I’m not sure what she wants a friend or a life coach

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you never talk with friends about a date?

"Do what you want" itself is not anti-feminine. But if you are looking for someone with whom you want to spend your life with it is usually useful - as basically everywhere - to consider the impression and effect you have on the other. Even more if you want to be able to choose with whom you want to spend your life the ability to do what is consistent with that person and your own desire is a crucial skill needed for sucess.

You just can't ignore the preferences of somebody else and expect them wanting to spend their life with you.

[–]IcarusKiki 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah I talk about dates and my BF but I don’t expect them to be red-pilled or give me the life advice you would see on here. Just because your friends don’t have the same worldview as you doesn’t make them anti-feminine or bad friends. If you see your friends as people who should have the same views as you find more conservative women to hang out with.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Where did I say that they are anti-feminine or bad friends?

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor -1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Lol good mods. Did you read the replies on the deleted post? Especially the picture.

So... you don't discuss life plans or serious mistakes with your friends? Or point out when they go wrong or when they stray from your shared values? Or even diet or workout schedules?

[–]IcarusKiki 4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Depends on how close the friend is. My sister is my BFF and we talk real to each other. But for the most part I don’t really discuss self improvement with my friends since that’s a decision only I can make for myself. It seems as though OP expects her female acquaintances to hand out life advice instead of, ya know, being friends and enjoying each other’s presence. People don’t like negative nellies so yeah if she consistently complains about not being able to attract a man or be pretty of course they are gonna spit some feel good nonsense to get her to move on and keep the conversation pleasant. It’s not everyone’s responsibility to fix your problems like it or not.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Above you just stated that even though your friends are envious they are also supportive.

What do you consider supportive if you don't talk to them about anything meaningful?

[–]IcarusKiki 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I do share meaningful things but I don’t expect them to have the same worldview as mine. Everyone has their own life path and your friends aren’t anti-feminine they just have a different perspective and aren’t red pill. Let’s face it, red-pilled women are hard to find and a lot of women find love successfully without being red-pill, it’s more of a tool for when you’re in a relationship already. If you really can’t vibe with them or take you seriously you should find new friends.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I did not even talk about my friends? You just argued in the other comments that you only talk meaningful with your sister. I didn't even say that I expect anybody to have the same view as me. What are you reading into my words???

[–]IcarusKiki 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your OP said people try to dissuade you from femininity. I assumed those were your friends. I talk meaningful with my close friends sometimes but it’s usually not about red pill tactics or femininity. And I expect support not advice because that’s how women usually talk.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then you misunderstood what I wanted to express with the OP

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Those people you describe are what I call "acquaintances". Friends I would be able to share important things with.

[–]IcarusKiki 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah they are my friends and I share important things with them but not all the time. Usually we just chat and have fun. But I’m also 21 so maybe it’s different as you get older. And I definitely don’t expect them to be red pilled or tailor their life advice to my needs. Idk but being red-pilled isn’t something I share with others.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder 27 points28 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Do you also remember the answer "why do you care?" when you asked the question "what does he want?"

"Why do you need me to not care?"

Do you also remember the question "why do you need a man to define who you are?" when you wanted to talk about wanting a boyfriend, husband or partner?

"What business is it of yours how I define myself?"

Do you remember the question "why don't you feel pretty the way you naturally are?" "why do you even want to be pretty?" when you asked about what you should wear or which make up to apply for a date?

"I've made my choice about who I want to be. Are you going to support me or not?"

Do you remember the question "why do you not love and respect yourself?" when you asked if and what you could have done better, after an argument or after a break up?

"Why do you not love and respect me how I am, instead of wanting me to be different?"

And usually they are asked by those people that will stab you in the back as soon as you don't meet THEIR expectations.

Exactly.

Remember that Social Justice Warriors always accuse the innocent of what they are guilty of themselves. They claim to want you to be free and empowered, but the moment you use your freedom and power to pursue your own happiness, instead of theirs, they will try to shove you back in their box.

I've given you some things to say, above, but my real advice is this:

Don't hang out with people who do not approve of the person you want to be. They will fight tooth and nail against anything you consider progress.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well said.

This comment would have really come in handy 10 years ago on the askwomen subs when all the femininity shaming was rampant.

[–]NationalMouse 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which is why I NEVER frequented that sub, Reddit is toxic. I only started using Reddit again for THIS sub in particular and a few others I find enjoyable. But the echo chambers in most other subs is exhausting.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you :)

[–]just_a_mum 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you also remember the answer "why do you care?" when you asked the question "what does he want?"

"Because I care about him. I expect he's asking the same question about me".

Do you also remember the question "why do you need a man to define who you are?" when you wanted to talk about wanting a boyfriend, husband or partner?

"I don't. Having a man won't define me or who I am, but neither will a grilled cheese sandwich. Doesn't mean I don't still want one."

Do you remember the question "why don't you feel pretty the way you naturally are?" "why do you even want to be pretty?" when you asked about what you should wear or which make up to apply for a date?

"I do. But I would like to enhance my best features tonight, to feel extra special"

Do you remember the question "why do you not love and respect yourself?" when you asked if and what you could have done better, after an argument or after a break up?

"I do love and respect myself, but I'm not perfect. I want to be able to identify my faults and work on them. I want to better myself and therefore my next relationship will be better".

Relationships include 2 people. If I want to be worshiped by my partner, I expect to worship him in return. If I want to have the perfect relationship, with the perfect man, then I need to strive for perfection in myself. I don't need a man to be happy, but that doesn't mean I am not happier in a good relationship.

[–]JadedByEntropy 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Essentially they will make you feel as if you cannot be loved because they deny you the right to become who and how you want to be.

Let's break that claim down into simple sentences, because each one is a lie. 1. Their opinion is what makes you unlovable-they make you feel. 2. You cannot be loved. 3. They have power to deny you rights. 4. You cannot become who or how you want.

All lies.

You seem to think unlovable is a thing and you must be it. What is actually true is that you will never be able to please everyone in every way all the time. And, they're toxic people you dont need to please.

  1. They can't make you feel anything without your consent to those emotions. They wont fix your problems. You need to disconnect their opinion of you from your worth.

  2. The only opinion that matters is yours and feelings aren't facts.You can feel ugly and not be ugly. You can feel unlovable, but honestly, you are lovable

  3. Its not a right that can be taken from you. They don't have power over you even if they are family. It sounds like you are young, but even parents are not in control of your every move, mood, amd feeling. You are. You have to be your own helper. Stop asking people who want to see you fail.

  4. You are in charge of your life, your wardrobe, your makeup. Research your features online and do your best. Sometimes less is best. But your goals are yours and only you can achieve them. Have confidence in your choices. Stop looking to others to know how to feel or do....do it yourself. Decide yourself. Codependency and anxiety about your decisions is a major issue for people with narcissist parents or relationships.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is about the implication of those questions, not about people. These implications create over time a certain mindset towards men and women's feelings about themselves and men. With that mindest, which is contrary to what RPW states, most attempts of women at successfull and satisfying relationships are likely to fail.

[–]cloudsongs_ 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

"They teach you that it is wrong wanting to be loved by a man."

It's wrong if that's the only thing you want. The next question would be, "Do you love yourself? Can you provide yourself the love that you crave and desire?"

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Who concludes from me wanting something that this is the only thing I want?

This is exactly the toxic way of thinking that I adressed in my OP. Human beings are not self-sufficient bubbles. No human being can exit without context and you cannot be your own context. Read Heidegger if you want. It is the interaction with the world and other human beings that makes us feel that we are alive, knowing that we exist. And either we experience our effect on the world in a positive way or we don't. This cannot be delegated to "just love yourself more and become self-sufficient".

[–]IcarusKiki 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but having a man and not being complete as yourself will just destroy the relationship when you take out your own personal flaws on the man. Having an anxious attachment style and being desperate will make sane men run far in the opposite direction and the only ones left will be controllers and abusers. That’s why we have nun mode. Desperation will only make you a plate

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Really, you completely miss the point of what I am talking about

[–]IcarusKiki 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Then what is your main point? I’m confused if you want advice or not

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No I did not seek advice. It was rather wanting to share, see if it is a common experience, but also point out the danger and disrespect in those type of replies. These are just examples for some type of replies that can make some young girls question their feminity.

[–]IcarusKiki 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok gotcha. I wouldn’t say they are disrespectful just cajoling and ignorant.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am glad we could resolve this. Maybe I should have made it more obvious in the OP that I am not looking for advice, but I also wanted to leave it open so that anyone could answer whatever they felt they wanted to. On the other hand I wasn't aware that one could understand it as seeking advice.

I would say it is very disrespectful to tell someone that what he or she wants for himself in his life is wrong...

[–]pillchangedmylife 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Misery loves company. Ignore them

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is relatively easy when one is redpill aware... Without being redpill aware it is just all too easy to believe the lies.

[–]DeLovehlyCoconute 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't want to improve themselves to better their lives. Ignore their bitterness and find better people with Conservative values to answer your questions.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (34 children) | Copy Link

This is also what I have noticed. All of my relationship failures have come from personal defects. If I look back, not a single failure could be improved by "self love" and "caring less what others think". There was something wrong with me and I was on the wrong path and I needed to change.

Good people do not end up with bad people by chance. Good people do not lose the affection of good people by chance. All of it has a cause and a lesson.

Most of my personality could be changed. Maybe some things can't, but I have somehow managed to become funny and charming rather than awkward, to be less angry and frustrated, to be more affectionate and forgiving, even to change who I am attracted to, and are these all not core personality traits? Things that are seemingly fixed and unchangeable? Things that you just have to "learn to accept you can't change" or "love and forgive yourself for". Nobody is born wise. Yet it is my goal to attain wisdom. Do I just have to learn to accept and love myself for being a fool?

I totally agree with you. Self love is anti-empowerment. It is complacence. This way I know his affection and respect for me will be genuine, because of what I've worked hard to achieve and become, and I will love him for loving the best in me.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Self love is anti-empowerment?? You don't understand what self love means. Let's take a couple. They meet each other but they're still on their journey of self improvement, yet they love each other for who they are, and where they are on their journey, and support each other on their growth. They don't have to be perfect to love each other -- they love each other, build a solid foundation, and continue to grow to become better versions of themselves.

Let's take another example -- parent and child. The child is still vulnerable, has a lot to learn and improve on, yet the parent loves the child and helps the child grow. The child does the same for their parent. They know that their parents are not perfect, but they love them and help them grow and become better parents.

That is unconditional love -- there's no if you're not good enough, I don't love you. Or if you're bad at this, I don't love you. Or I won't love you until you become this. The love you talk about is conditional. It's problematic. It leaves people wanting/needing to be perfect in order to feel like they're worthy of love -- they become perfectionists. But guess what? No one is perfect and no one can ever become perfect. Perfectionists can never truly experience love because they can never be perfect.

[–]IcarusKiki 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Perfectionism is arrogance and it drives people away. Learned this the hard way

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It sure does! Learned this the hard way too as a former perfectionist.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

The concept of self-love already shows that love is conditional. Think about conflicting interests. Can two people who prioritize self-love arrive at a compromise if both claim to love or be loved unconditionally?

Nobody can expect to affect others negatively and be loved for it. Only children.

And - after all - what you think the feeling of being unloved reflects other than the experience that one is unable to feel loved in a relationship for whichever reason? Feeling rejected? What else than feedback over ones own effect on other people and oneself is constant failure in having the relationship one wants to have?

You will automatically love yourself if you experience self-efficacy. Helping/supporting people towards self-efficacy is helping them to love themselves.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Self love is unconditional. And it doesn't mean being selfish and inconsiderate of other people. You don't get it.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you mean with self-love the basic will to survive then I agree it should be unconditional. Otherwise love, even self-love is conditional, you CANNOT pose expectations on feelings. Love is a feeling, it is not a decision. You can nourish them, you can trigger them, inspire them. You CANNOT define or put demands on them.

You cannot tell yourself to love yourself. Nor can you make yourself feel loved by yourself. You can act in ways that make you feel better and content with yourself, but you cannot love yourself. Love is a feeling that is directed towards something, it has a direction. Without direction it does not exist.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

There are different kinds of love. In general, love takes time to grow. It's not about telling or making yourself to love yourself, it's about learning to love yourself over time. Some -- or a lot -- of women seek love from men when they don't even love themselves. If you don't love yourself, how can you expect that from someone else? And do you want someone to love you only when you do/are/have something? Is that the love you want -- a love that is conditional?

Of course, we're not going to love everyone in the world, but the greatest love you can ever have is self love. Once you have that, everything falls into place.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course, we're not going to love everyone in the world, but the greatest love you can ever have is self love. Once you have that, everything falls into place.

You might believe that it is like that. But that is a lie that we have been told for a very long time. Self-love does not make everything falls into it's place.

Think about the many situations that cannot be solved by self-love.

There are so infinitely many circumstances that cause suffering. Yes, having self-doubts might make those situations even more difficult to bear. However (!), self-love does neither avoid those situations nor does it improve the situations.

Self-love does not suddenly make you know the right decisions or right way. Self-love does not make you disciplined or a pleasant to be around. Self-love does not make you build a life in which you feel great.

If you manage to build your life such that it satisfies you, then you will automatically forget about self-love. If instead you concentrate on developing self-love, you might regret less, however it does not solve the problems that made you feel bad in the first place.

It is just a mental cover up... Something that only eases the symptom emotional pain. The symptom of a dissatifying life.

Most girls only wake up when reality is so ugly that self-love does not help to cover up for the many bad choices and decisions.

Don't be that girl.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

We are 2 different people. Self love has transformed my life in ways I could've never imagined. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. You do what you think is best for you, and I will continue to do what's best for me.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor -2 points-1 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Love is conditional. Love is an involuntary response to virtue. Without virtue there is no love. I will not invalidate the meaning of love by using the word to refer to some sort of anti-perfectionism. It means too much to me. If I love someone it simply means they are a person who mirrors my virtues.

I don't relate with your last paragraph at all. I'm a perfectionist but I think I'm worthy of love. By any standard I love very deeply and am willing to sacrifice much for the right man, and improve for them. And I enjoy being loved too.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I love you for your perfectionism :) I think people also don't understand that perfectionism does not imply that you are never satisfied. It is incredibly satisfying to experience oneself being consistent with ones own standards and it is by no means exclusive to acknowledging that while perfectionism implies that one strives towards certain standards it by no means implies that not already the fact of coming closer to those standards is satisfying. The 100% are not needed for happiness... striving towards those 100% is :)

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's it exactly. If anything my perfectionism comes in a way that demands No Contradictions and Internal Consistency rather than Perfection. I can't stand hypocrisy or internal contradictions, I must work them all out or find them all out.

As long as I'm moving forwards, and meet my standards, I am satisfied.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

True love is not conditional. Conditional love means that you stop loving someone once they lose something or once they change in some way. Keep being conditional with your self love, I will keep being unconditional with mine :)

You will never be perfect -- striving to be your possible best will one thing, and striving to be perfect is another. As a perfectionist, you will impose it on other people -- you will want them to be "perfect" like you, and that will only or has already pushed them away.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I'm not a perfectionist? Or if I am, I've figured out how to not make the bad stuff happen.

I just don't get all this doom and gloom. There's a huge disconnect between what you're saying and how things are in my life. I don't demand perfection of others (or myself). I merely want improvement. Gradual, steady, ongoing improvement. I have high standards and I don't get involved with people that don't meet them. And they generally, do not lose their values over the course of their life but if they did, I would stop loving them.

I don't just mean self love, all love is conditional (except parent-child but there's a reason). If someone you love committed an aggressive violent act, e.g. murder, unjustifiably, or if they betrayed your shared values in any other way, you would stop loving them. It's crazy to think otherwise. If you did something like that you would stop loving yourself. It's nonsense to say "true love is unconditional" because there must be limits. Absolutely there must be limits. If you fall in love with someone because they're strong, and calm, and do the right thing, you would fall out of love if they turned out to be weak, and anxious, and a wrongdoer. Moments of weakness are ok. But reversals of character are not.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you think that parent-child love should be unconditional, I can't understand why you believe that self love should be conditional. In this life, the only person you'll ever have always is yourself. Your family can abandon you, you children can walk away from your life, your partner can walk away too. Some lose family members to death too. You will always have yourself, no matter what.

Based on your comments, you're not a perfectionist. I used to be a perfectionist, and I demanded it from people I "loved" -- you treat people you love how you treat yourself. If you demand perfection from yourself, you'll demand it from them too, and you don't even realize it -- it's subconscious.

The conditional love you talk about, is it really love? If you truly love someone, can you really ever stop loving them? There are couples who are "madly in love", but then when they get divorced, they become monsters to each other. Did they ever truly love each other? I don't think so.

If a woman loves a man, then he beats her. Should she walk away? Hell yes. Does that mean that she stopped loving him? No, it doesn't. If she truly loved him, she'd wish him the best but still walk away for her life. My point is that if you truly love someone, you'll always want the best for them. With or without you. Nothing they do would stop you from loving them. If you can stop loving someone, that's not true love in the first place.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You know that this idea of love is incredibly co-dependent? That it is exactly this idealized seemingly morally superior idea of love that feeds a violent cycle? It is highly abusive and narcissistic.

People who respect each other also fight with each other because they hold each other responsible for their actions and yes then, when they miss the point of letting go, it can happen that they hate each other. But it happens because they have the expectation towards each other of living up to the standards that they have with each other agreed on. They have each others back but they also confront each other for BS because they treat each other as adults and not as co-dependent children.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If a woman loves a man, then he beats her. Should she walk away? Hell yes. Does that mean that she stopped loving him? No, it doesn't.

I would stop loving anyone that did something like that. It would be involuntary, I wouldn't even get a choice, I would just immediately stop.

This is the major difference between me and you. You think you're selling love to me with this? Dude, that's horrifying. If that's "true love" than thank goodness I am incapable of it!

[–]IcarusKiki -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Perfectionism is neuroticism. If there’s one thing most men can’t stand it’s an overly neurotic perfectionist woman. It’s the opposite of being a goddess of fun and light and will drive good men away from you. Harsh truth I learned as a former perfectionist

[–]IcarusKiki 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I somewhat disagree. You cannot love someone else without loving or at least accepting yourself. Anger and frustration a lot of the times comes from the root of self loathing or not accepting what cannot be changed. True self love is knowing what to change while accepting what you cannot change about yourself and learning to love that. Personally, the times where I felt self loathing I usually ended up unable to love others or able to accept their love because I felt I was undeserving. This drove people away from me. When I learned to cherish myself is when I finally started taking care of myself and improving for the better.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I totally agree with you on this! I've personally experienced the same!

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I will never accept this "self love" phrase. Everything about it gets my hackles up.

In the spirit of things, yes I know what you mean. But I wouldn't call it self love. Self care maybe. But there's a time and a place. No one should have to love themselves when they're lying in the gutter (metaphorically). Get out of the gutter, clean yourself up, and then you can be proud of yourself.

How do you know that your self acceptance didn't follow self improvement? How do you know that your decision to "clean up" didn't cause the feelings of pride, acceptance, etc., rather than the other way around?

[–]IcarusKiki 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I know it because I was depressed and literally couldn’t take care of myself because I believed I was somehow inferior ( I wasn’t). I took on a new perspective based on prayer and self acceptance and that’s what lead my to meditation, working out, and being a pleasant person to be around.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So if you didn't take those concrete steps to self improve, do you think you would still be able to practice self acceptance? Ie, if you stopped meditating, working out, and being pleasant.

[–]IcarusKiki 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s a feedback loop that started when I started accepting what I couldn’t change instead of beating myself up and dwelling on it. If I stopped doing those things I would definitely not be as happy but I would still love and accept my core self as I was. People can smell low self esteem and it drives others away except abusers and controllers. It’s exhausting to be around to be honest.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah understood. I'm a bit different. I also stopped beating myself up about things, but I decided to always improve and never accept myself as I was, since that just meant stagnating. I have never been with anyone abusive, and I don't attract them nor am I attracted to them.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

So what you did is you replaced the lethargy with action, you started to actively take control and this helped you to understand that you are the master over yourself and can control how you feel. This is a powerful feeling. It leads to self love because it shows you that you are able to align your actions consistent with your intentions. But it is not based on self-love, except you consider the will to survive and feel good as self-love, but then again it would be so basic that it would be hardly deserve to be mentioned.

Do you really think being depressed about being unable to be who you want to be is a sign of lack of self-love? Or is not rather the opposite? Namely that self-love makes you want certain things for yourself and that self-love will lead you along the way of improvement and assessing your weaknesses in a realistic way?

If someone constantly stumbles over his own feet, would it then not be better to teach that person how to walk properly instead of telling that person to simply love who he or she is?

[–]IcarusKiki 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can love your inner self while still trying to improve parts of you. You seem desperate for affection and man to complete you and that will only cause misery for yourself and will cause the good men to run away while you cling onto abusers who will use you and probably plate you because you will take any man. Not a personal attack just what I got from what you’ve written.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I love your comment. I think the concept of "self-love" is toxic and disabling. Nobody will feel good about him- or herself when constantly failing at the task that they want to perform. It is ok if every body is their own frame of reference. You can only improve from were you are starting from. Not improving and instead loving stagnation is probably one of the unhealthiest concept that can exist for a human being.

Good people do not end up with bad people by chance. Good people do not lose the affection of good people by chance. All of it has a cause and a lesson.

One can only see this when one does not demonize the other but realizes instead that the biggest part of "feeling bad" is that it really is feedback about ones own experience in this world and that at the same time every human being itself has the power to change that feedback, but not by demanding the world and others to provide different feedback but by modifying his or her own actions such that they will trigger different feedback.

But many people really have a big aversion to accept that feeling of miserableness that goes along with realizing ones own mistakes. They just deflect with declaring that the past cannot be undone and overlook that repeated mistakes will continue to make you feel miserable until one has learned to avoid them.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."

Reality is pain, and if you deny reality, you create suffering. If someone made such bad decisions that they ended up with an abusive partner, they must have ignored a lot of reality. Self love will not help with ignoring reality.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I would even go so far to state that in 95% of the cases abuse is reciprocal as is everything else and that this realization is particularly painful but also particularly healing. The concept of self love might be useful to end a cycle that probably both lack insight to solve and make the decision to leave an unhealthy situation, but definitely the concept of self love does not help to be more empathic with the partner when one's own pride feels hurt.

I read an article at TRP that explains in detail and much better than I am able to how forced emotional intimacy is comparable to forced sexual intimacy. Force can be anything, emotional blackmailing, endless nagging, endless crying, etc. I wonder how many women are willing and ready to see how they have actually abused and caused pain in their partners, if they are even able to realize that the "abuser" can feel pain and even if they are objective enough to see part of their own contribution, society and friends and family will tell them that they are innocent co-dependents or worse "empaths" and that because of their empathy they fall prey to non-empathic exploitative narcissists. And it works because it confirms people in their bias of subjective goodnes and their projective idea of the other being the one that causes the suffering.

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't even need to go that far.

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt - even if you assume they weren't mutually abusive, that's still a big enough lapse in judgement, that can't be solved with self-love.

In truth the abuse situation is worse. https://www.bettinaarndt.com.au/video/bettina-arndt-on-monstrous-lies-about-domestic-violence/

Of physically abusive relationships observed by children,

14.4% of children witnessed "couple violence", i.e. mutually abusive parents

9% of children witnessed male on female violence

7.8% witnessed female on male violence

You don't need to talk about "emotional abuse" when physical abuse is already rampant among women. But this is never reported; they will simply report the male-on-female statistic and ignore the rest. Whenever someone says they were in an abusive relationship, already I know in my head that there is a 2/3 chance they were reciprocating or initiating.

[–]Fearless_Selection69 -2 points-1 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

The outcome of all things, is at the cemetery. Whether if you are Red pilled, Blue pilled, Or hardcore Feminazi...there’s only 2 outcomes for women in the end. Do you not want to die alone? Or do you want to die alone?

Women who chose to be submissive wives, be better wives, be better women in General...they didn’t die alone.

Combative women love to try and bend reality with their feelings. The world doesn’t work that way unfortunately. As a former apprentice mortician, I’ve seen my fair share of doom and gloom. Men are mentally tough when the end is near, we die with conviction. Women on the other hand, well....not so much. “I am strong independent, don’t need a man, don’t need to be submissive and feminine”- This reality bending magic won’t work when the Grim reaper is near.

There’s nothing wrong with being a traditional woman, a traditional housewife. It has worked for thousands of years, why go against the order of things is beyond me.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You can't generalize though. Some of the housewives I know are the most miserable women I've ever met in my life -- disrespected, mistreated, and taken for granted by their husbands.

[–]Fearless_Selection69 -3 points-2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Yes the F we CAN generalize. Why are you women always trying to bend reality with your feelings?

The reason Men generalize is because it’s based on probabilities. A possibility is 1 in 1 million chance. A probability is a chance greater than 50%.

Put a number on the housewives you know that you think are miserable. “I know some”- That’s the exception, that’s a possibility, trying to bend reality with feelings again.

And I’ll put a number on the amount of non-housewives that have died ALONE. A generalization, a probability chance greater than 50%.

Former Mortician here, don’t argue facts with me lol. I’m the one who sees it all at the end of your journey.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Do you know those women personally? You men don't see what women go through. Some women live great lives as housewives, but some women don't. Men don't see or understand what women go through. Some divorced women swear to never get married again. Marriage does not always translate to fulfillment for women. I'm not saying that you are wrong -- I'm just saying that you shouldn't generalize, neither should I.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

That is not the point of this subreddit. This sub is for women that seek fulfillment with a man. So please respect that. Just because some have bad relationship or marriage experience doesn't mean that it hast to be bad for all of us and definitely they contributed to the failure of that marriage. The intention of this subreddit is for women to understand what they themselves can do better. If they think that they cannot do anything better then it is not the right place.

[–]IcarusKiki 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s not the issue. Of course having a good man is important. But other things such as cultivating good friendships and strong bonds with family are also important and we shouldn’t lose sight of that.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I know what the purpose of this sub is which is why I'm here. I'm just saying that he shouldn't generalize, claiming that every single married woman is better off than those who aren't. It's just not true.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Read again what he wrote... He did not express it perfectly. But he didn't say that every single married women is better off than those who aren't. He said that the probability to be better when old and married is higher than the probability for crazy old cat ladies... Take 100 married women and 100 "single" women. How many of the married women do you think are really trapped in a very bad marriage? Maybe 5%? What do you think?

You will see that when you get older, friends move to different places because of work, some marry have kids and their lifes change completely, parents die, it is more difficult to meet new people, etc. Being single at later stages gets only worse... The probability of being isolated and having noone to look after you, e.g. when being sick for some days such that one cannot do grocery shopping is much higher than the probability of being in an unhappy marriage. Particularly since the climate in your marriage can also be influenced by you.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe you should read his comment again. His first comment. I am not against marriage, I'm against the notion men like him have that without marriage, a woman can't be content with her life. For women like you, it's probably true, but not all women are like you.

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The only thing he said is that the probability to die alone and lonely is higher without marriage. That is neither an opinion nor has it anything to do with being pro or against, it is a fact. If someone thinks that "dying alone" is better than the risk of an unhappy marriage then it is their choice. However it still includes a higher risk of regret at the end because one has missed out on one of the most central human experiences.

[–]IcarusKiki 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women live longer than men so we usually die alone anyways is the sad fact. The important thing is to cultivate a strong family and friend group

[–]DelicateDevelopment4 Star[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How do you cultivate a strong family without a father and husband?

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

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You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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