~ archived since 2018 ~

Dealing with Hitting the Wall

September 26, 2020

I’m 42.5 and been married for 20 years next year. Marriage is great and our only daughter is grown and will be getting married herself to a lovely young man very soon.

My mother died 11 years ago and I don’t really have anyone to talk to about losing my looks and effectively turning into an old lady at this point lol. I could really use her words and wisdom right now but obviously I cannot summon those but I need some advice unfiltered on hitting the wall if you will.

I had a facelift when I was 39 and just had a breast lift this summer and my goodness my breasts are absolutely stunning and I’m so happy with the results. But I can’t help but notice my face is changing. Just taking on that overall tired matronly look and my eyes are a little baggy and I just don’t look like myself anymore.

In all honesty I look forward to getting older and I enjoy every aspect of my life, marriage, family life, financial standing, good health (knock on wood) and running our business has been great. I feel like there are some real benefits to getting older that I can appreciate more than other stage in my life.

But watching my beauty being ripped away from me has been psychologically painful. As a young woman it was part of my identity for so long and now it’s slipping away. It’s been bittersweet because now I like being an average woman but it’s like watching yourself “die” and you’re seeing your own mortality staring you in the face.

How have you/do you deal with hitting the wall? Do you have the support of your older friends? Do you keep having plastic surgery to stave it off? Does it matter to you and/or do you refuse to give in? Or do you just let nature take its course and understand this is a natural part of womanhood for better or for worse?

Thanks for reading and I look forward to any advice you can offer.

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Post Information
Title Dealing with Hitting the Wall
Author notahappygirl211
Upvotes 96
Comments 57
Date September 26, 2020 3:50 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link
Original Link
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[–]jonmarli57 points58 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Aging is scary. I'm in my early 30s and starting to see little signs of age. It just creeps and creeps.

In all honesty I look forward to getting older and I enjoy every aspect of my life, marriage, family life, financial standing, good health (knock on wood) and running our business has been great. I feel like there are some real benefits to getting older that I can appreciate more than other stage in my life.

It sounds like you have a good attitude toward aging overall. But the awareness of our own mortality is hard to handle no matter what.

My mother is in her 50s and we've talked a lot recently about her feelings about getting older. She is currently interested in finding representation of older women. She shops makeup brands that use mature models, looks for movies featuring women near her she and reads fiction about older women (apparently there is a growing subgenre of paranormal mysteries and thrillers with mature women protagonists! Who knew?).

One way that modern culture has failed us, I believe, is that older women are hidden away instead of being celebrated as the absolute backbone of civilization that they are. TRP talks about gender dynamics from an evolutionary psychology perspective, and one theory I've read recently is that the existence of grandmothers (or post-childbearing years women) is the catalyst for the evolution of modern humans. Menopause and "the wall" is not something to fear but rather part of what makes women the bedrock of families and communities. We will look different, sure, but our worth in many ways only grows.

Edit to say that I'm not trying to de-sexualize women over 40 or 50 or whatever here. Our sexiness won't be the sexiness of peak fertility and youth forever, but older women can absolutely be super hot to the right man.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 22 points23 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I read a few articles and watched some videos on becoming “the crone” aka a gracious old woman who imparts wisdom and guidance towards the people in her family and her surrounding community. I have to say the idea of it intrigues me and I’ve already begun to take on that role for my daughter and future son-in-law. I FaceTime with them for hours on end and they hang on my every word lol. They love my outlook on life and always look to me for advice on finances, running a household and various other nuances to married life and life in general. It’s so beyond rewarding to support them in such a way I wouldn’t be able to otherwise without developing into a “a wise old woman” lol. Can’t wait for them to give me my 6 grandchildren haha.

I think it’s up to us as women to foster this sort of support system to those we love and to recognize the people who need us in this capacity. It’s priceless beyond measure—I see it written on my kids’ faces whenever I have the pleasure of spending time with them.

[–]jonmarli7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I absolutely love this. It's too bad that "crone" doesn't have the cutest connotations, but seriously what a badass transition in life. I hope my son looks up to me like your daughter looks up to you!

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love this comment. Thank you

[–]vintagegirlgame2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Anthropologist here and I’m usually the one citing the grandmother/menopause/evolution theory ;)

Older women are definitely the matriarchs to be respected and revered moving forward. Our culture has lost a lot of wisdom overall but I hope that the next “generation” of wise old ladies can help bring it back. For example my MIL is adored by my friends as one of the wisest women I know, one of the “original hippies” who did yoga years before it was mainstream. She already has all the wisdom that my yogi friends are only just discovering.

At the same time, there is so much available to women for their health and fitness as they age. My own mother is an anti-aging medical doctor who started doing marathons/ultramarathons/ironman in her 50s (and winning women’s masters!). Now at 65 she‘s barely aged in 15 years and during quarantine she started doing 25 pull ups a day!

[–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I only recently discovered Botox for forehead lines and filler for undereye circles. I too am early 40's. I workout 5 days a week with a trainer. Staying healthy and cultivating good habits staves off aging better than any surgery but I will likely have some sort before 50.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 18 points19 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I agree. I’m no gym rat and could stand to lose a few pounds. But as I think Courtney Cox once said when you reach a certain age, “You can only choose one, your face or your body because you can’t have both.” I’ve found that to be so true. I notice when I get gung ho on a diet and exercise program my face completely falls apart. Looks so haggard. :(

[–]kneesofthetrees19 points20 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You could focus on building muscle rather than losing weight. That might mean you stay the same weight or even gain a few pounds, but it will show as “toning” on your arms, shoulders, hips, and legs, and make you generally look healthier and stronger. This way you won’t lose the fat that keeps your face plump, but you’ll still get the benefits of exercise.

Not to mention, lifting weights is excellent for joint and bone health into older age. There’s much more to exercise than weight loss. Even if you don’t want to change your body it’s very important to maintain an active lifestyle in some way.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are some seriously beautiful fitness ladies on Instagram that are over 50 and look 30. It’s great inspiration

[–]bel_esprit_2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to mention, an active lifestyle as you age also helps prevent brain deterioration - aka dementia and Alzheimer’s disease.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Definitely. I have some exercise bands and I use them periodically but have been too lazy and unmotivated to stick to it. That’s all on me. But the primary reason I don’t stick to a program is because my face falls apart every time. Wish there was a way to keep my face intact and it just gets worse every year.

[–]ihopemewingworks2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I also think getting too fat will also age you because your skin will still sag but the nasolabial folds will be even worse because the fat makes the fold even heavier if that makes sense... Also I do think it's best to maybe be 5-10lbs heavier then what is preferred to have the face not age horrible. But still work your glutes to then make the body look more curvy rather then overweight. Salma Hayek is a great example of a good body, she has a few pounds extra and she looks great she also has aged in the face amazingly

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh absolutely. I’m 20 pounds over, 5’2” 135 pounds, size 7-8. I watch my portions mostly and take a more “realistic” approach towards my weight for my current mindset and tolerance level. Sure I could kill myself in the gym and whittle myself down to 110 pounds but I feel like what’s the use? I’m not doing any beauty pageants anytime soon. Stems from getting old and not giving enough of a fk lol.

[–]Brendadonna2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Catherine Deneuve has said this as well. I think she chose her face in the end I think the best choice for me will be to get lipo on my midsection around menopause and to keep some fat in the face. Also, Botox and filler work great in moderation

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Aging is indeed scary, even for me in my 20s lol, and I totally get when you feel like beauty is a part of your identity... but I feel that "the wall" is kind of a lie. I love this sub but I disagree with the whole idea of the wall, except for biologically speaking, of course. There will ALWAYS be men out there who think you're attractive, and even if you're not super conventionally pretty, if you're fun and feminine, men will take note. I truly believe that at the end of the day, a vibrant feminine energy is the most attractive thing to men. I know so many women even into their 60s who have men after them. These women have wrinkles and ain't perfect but they're confident and fun. Don't be too hard on yourself, energy and vitality is the most beautiful thing of all.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I believed the same when I was your age. I had an older aunt who just recently passed away who told me after she became a widow in her late 50s it was impossible to find a man. She was very feminine, played golf, stayed svelte, went to Curves gym for women, the whole gamut. She never dated anyone ever again. I didn’t believe her either but now I’m beginning to fully understand.

There’s a period in a woman’s life in which she becomes “invisible” to the world. It’s a real phenomenon and you can google it and read firsthand accounts of older women who swear by it. My 53-year old sister in law has also professed it to me on several occasions. It generally begins after menopause.

I wholeheartedly agree that femininity is indispensable and is a tremendous part of being attractive. But there’s no denying the wall. Especially in America where becoming an old woman is akin to becoming a leper to American men. Perhaps I’ll move to Monaco when it happens to me. At least I’ll be seaside drinking Cristal while being fat and invisible lmao.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Hey, I totally get what you mean, but I think that this doesn't necessarily apply to every woman. I think your personality and how much you try to maintain your appearance matters. I know a woman in her late 50s who is really attractive - her personality is great and she also does stuff to keep her skin, hair, and body looking good. I also know that my dad (he's 72) has been with women in their 60s who are attractive for their age. I think it depends on how active the woman is and if she tries to maintain her appearance as well as how vibrant her personality is. Yes she will probably still be invisible to most men, but I still think men can become interested in an older woman when they get to know her. I think theres a difference between being invisible as in, you don't get checked out at the grocery store, and then being completely invisible as in no man ever notices you or likes you at ALL. I would argue that while the former may be true, the latter still makes it possible for men in certain contexts to take interest...just, the widespread attention is gone.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s not just invisible to men, but invisible to society in general. My sister-in-law has told me that people run right into her at malls and such because they don’t even see her standing there or passing. People don’t wait on her and she is ignored and overlooked everywhere she goes. We went shopping at the boutiques in Las Vegas on the strip and she complained to me for a half hour how she got “run over” by pedestrians on the walkways who didn’t even notice she was there. I’ve read about this very thing in countless online articles and forums as well.

It seems almost unbelievable to the average onlooker because it’s so cruel, demeaning and callous. We don’t want to believe that society can be so inhuman towards women. But it’s a fact of life for so many and it’s humiliating and demoralizing to the women who experience it day-to-day.

[–]MilkiesMaximus7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You should try doing some serious sweating. Like hot yoga or just anything that makes you looks super gross after lol. I find my skin looks it's best post shower after a lot of sweating. I'm sure there is evidence that it cleanses your skin somehow and keeps it tighter and just makes it glow.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is an excellent idea. I love dry saunas and spas and such. Sweating def does bring out a glow as it’s detoxifying. I’ll try that.

[–]MilkiesMaximus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hot yoga has the double benefit of keeping your skin and bod looking great.

[–]neverbringsajacket16 points17 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think beauty is “ripped away” in the sense you describe. I think it changes. My mother just turned 60 and she is stunning. Men look at her all the time. You’d never guess she’s 60, but it’s not because she’s spent thousands to look that way. She’s not social media standard hot in the Kris Kardashian sense. It’s honestly more in the means that she conducts herself, how she dresses, and she chooses to live a full passionate life.

I think a facelift and boob jobs are great! There’s plenty of other maintenance that you can do as well if you choose to, I’m not against that at all, I plan to have some work done myself! I mean how you interpret your own self projects out. If you think you’re old and and tired, you’re going to project old and tired. Don’t sell yourself short! Change your hair, get some new clothes, find something to be interested in!

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Haha you’re right. I just dropped stacks on a new fall wardrobe at Saks and yes, it’s wonderful to update my look and stay well-groomed. At the same time I put on my designer clothes and I often think “Man I would rock this like no other if I was 27 again.” Except when I was 27 I was broke af and could never afford these luscious designer clothes lmao. The trade off is a bit ironic to say the least.

Now I’m thinking, “Does this look frumpy? Do I look like I’m trying to dress too youthful for my age? Am I too old to wear this?” lol. Maybe I’ll try a tight Ariana Grande ponytail and see if it’ll pull my eyes and forehead tighter. No wait I can’t do that because my thinning hairline will get even thinner and I can no longer wear tight ponytails. Ugh! 🤣

[–]JoyfullMommy0063 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I totally feel you on this one!! I love some of the new looks that come out but, as I start trying to incorporate them into my own looks, I worry about whether I "can" or "should" wear it. So I end up sticking with my same old.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The great thing about really nice clothes is they don’t look age inappropriate. They look classy. And as I’ve gotten older it’s become even more vitally important for me to buy nicer things. It’s the cheap crap that really ages you.

[–]JadedByEntropy4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Following. I had a traumatic major surgery and lost 5 years when i found a mirror two months later. I don't know what to do about these feelings of waking up significantly older with my first permanent "wrinkles" the creases of intense pain

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It all hits each and every one of us eventually. I’m so sorry to hear about the traumatic experience with your surgery. Puts my experience in perspective considering I’m very fortunate to be enjoying reasonably good health (I’m an ass here I admit 😞)

[–]JadedByEntropy6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're fine. Noone really 'gets it' unless you go through it, and noone should have to. Enjoy every mobility you have and use every muscle you want to still use when you're old. You're a long way from old. Best quote i found was: "No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.

Socrates "

It helped me to read some replies and feel less alone.

All grief is valid. All of it.

Find the beauty in your strengths and what you can do. Take pride from actual achievements.

[–]ajaa1232 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel for you. I know it can be devastating. My mum is in her late 50s and I remember growing up I always thought she was so beautiful - still do. The way she carried herself, dressed, hair and makeup. Her skin always looked glowing. You should look into getting some hyaluronic acid into your skincare routine if you don't already. Also maybe you need to learn how to do your makeup differently now. I know my mum's beauty secret was applying a thin layer of oil under her foundation and her skin looked glowing always. A dewy setting spray might do the trick? I know whenever I see someone over 50 looking amazing I am in awe and really appreciate their beauty because I know that they have put in the effort. Just remember you are still beautiful.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Think I’ll try the oil base under my bb cream. Thanks a lot for the tip! Skin has been super dry lately so I’m definitely going to try it.

As far as makeup I’ve had to wear as little as possible otherwise I just look old af. A full face will easily age me 10 years lol. Had to really stop using it when I got into my 30s. Now that I’m in my 40s I literally cannot wear it without looking really old. Brings out every imperfection. I don’t wear a lot regardless and have no patience for it but it’s even getting to the point that I’m going to have to use a tinted moisturizer because the bb cream is getting too heavy. For years it’s been just mascara, brows and lipstick. Sometimes even that’s too much lol!

[–]gorgeouskitten8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel like I could’ve written your post. I’m 40, been married 18 years, 3 awesome kids, Pilates 3-4 days a week, and as of late I have been shocked to see myself age in hyper speed all of a sudden. I had breast augmentation years ago and have done a bit of Botox in my forehead lines for years...but this is bigger than that. My youth and glow are quickly fading and no surgery will replace it. Its a heartbreaking realization I’ve become all too aware of and am struggling with keeping it in perspective. (And never realized how much my looks were part of my identity.) It’s scary bc it’s also not how I want to spend the rest of my life: obsessing about my looks. In order to enjoy the 2 half of my life I’m going to have to learn embrace this new normal, and age gracefully with a few perhaps a few minor improvements along the way. Moderation (in every part of life) is key! Big hugs to you. Thanks for sharing, it’s encouraging knowing I’m not the only one who feels this way!

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You have my deepest sympathies. It’s so difficult. At the same time I think our minds develop and grow from this experience. It’s humbling to say the least. And I’m certain as women we all go through it but there’s no real avenue to take to help us deal with it—nothing but blue pill tropes and cliches to assuage the ego instead of confronting the truth on what aging does to women psychologically in Western society.

[–]Brendadonna6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I used to get a ton of male attention in my teens and twenties. Obviously I was more attractive then, but I think part of it is that men know that you are naive when you are young, but In your 30s and up, they know you won’t be easily impressed by them It’s weird, but when I got to be about 38, I started attracting a lot of guys in their 20s. It’s funny becuase 28 was when I first noticed men paying less attention to me.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Same. There’s some kind of primal yet sinister, animal-like desire men have towards very young women and they literally can’t control themselves around us. Their minds go haywire and they only see sex (probably going to make a post about this sometime in the future). And it often manifests itself in crude remarks, abuse and exploitation. Not much fun at all to receive such copious amounts of negative attention. At least now if I get on the city bus I don’t have to worry about being groped or followed.

A lot of these red pill guys insist our teens and early 20s are our holy grail in terms of life satisfaction. It was the least satisfying period in my life and I couldn’t even find a decent man to go out with. They all looked at me as a toy, a novelty, just a ball of “trouble and fun.”

People see me as a human being now. You can’t put a price on that.

[–]Brendadonna1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Completely !! And now, people aren’t (usually) paying attention to just because they want to sleep with you

[–]LookingForEquanimity1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hi there. Just wondering since you seem okay with injections etc. Have you looked into tear trough filler? Will def make you look less tired. There truly is no cream for that...
42 is not old. You can absolutely still be sexy.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have. To my own dismay I’m a plastic surgery “junkie” who reads a lot of plastic surgery forums/follows Insta PS accts. And Instagram face terrifies me. Every woman looks the same and it’s not attractive, it’s kind of horrifying. I did a lot of research and learned that once you start using fillers you have to stay on them because when they dissolve your skin is loose and baggy from being stretched and you have to keep using more and more filler to achieve the same result. Hence why so many instagram girls end up with bloated pillow faces. The surgeons don’t tell you that, they’ll just keep putting filler in your face until you eventually wind up looking like a freak.

Rather just keep with I have before I’ll ever resort to looking like that. Lol!

[–]ShimmeringGlimmering2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

May want to looking into deep plan facelift/fat transfer/blepharoplasity I follow and tabanmd on Instagram for their natural results. I know you mentioned being wary of the overdone Instagram look - it’s definitely something that can make you look older. The deep plane lift helps prevent the stretched out look re: fillers that you mentioned. I’m 35 so just on undereye fillers but I’m saving up for a light fat transfer. But when the time comes I’ll do the deep plane. I did have laser tightening on my neck and jawline that worked well in the meantime. Either way, it sounds like you are doing the most that you can, I know it’s hard though. Time comes for us all!

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha I follow Dr. Karam. Truly amazing work he does. He emphasizes a natural look and his results are fantastic. Dr. Jacono in NY is another I follow and his work too is outstanding. The surgeon who did my lift purports natural results as well. Didn’t have a deep plane but a lower lift and necklift. Still very happy with the results. The deep plane is really something l, reestablishes the upside down triangle shape of a youthful face. Looks very feminine and so natural. As soon as mine drops again I’m going to look into it (should last me another 10 years or so).

[–]romgal3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. I'm very happy that your boob lift went well, sounds great! I'm sorry, but where would I find the definition of all these terms (wall, etc)?

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Haha thanks for the comment. “Hitting the wall” is the point in a woman’s life where she becomes completely sexually undesirable to men, taking on a middle-aged Karen sort of existence. I caution you on reading about it in men’s red pill circles because it’s extraordinarily depressing upon which they describe it.

[–]mydogwillbeinmyheart2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think "completely" undesirable is too magnified. I think it's more of a noticeable drop in a woman's appearance which decreases the pool of potential eligible men that she might be able to attract.

[–]romgal1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you!

[–]aussiedollface20 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Get a good Dermatologist and take their advice re skin care and anti aging procedures.

Aside from that, it really is just a part of being a woman I suppose. I’m over 30 now and still look pretty good I think, but I’ve definitely noticed society changing in their attitude towards me. I’ve written a post in this topic here before actually lol. I think the goal is to be as attractive and healthy and happy as you can be, and part of that is transitioning from “the hot chick” to the elegant woman. Yes there’s less sex appeal, but there’s a lot more to give too in terms of wisdom and kindness xo

[–]underhiscumspell0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is so painful, to age. You described it perfectly.

[–]bachbozo-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

r/zerocarb madaam

My 47 y/o Polish plate is the finest piece of ass I've landed in recent memory and has been full keto for years.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I wish. Done zero carb in the past and it completely blew my face apart. I was only 31 when I went on it for a year and I looked really terrible. Plus I have IBS and this will kill me lol.

[–]bachbozo2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Were you doing grass fed and supplementing elctrolytes?

One of the top posts in the past year is about an ex meth head whom cured his/her debilitating IBS with zero carb. Undigestable fiber is far more detrimental for IBS 🤔

I didn't defecate for almost two weeks (hahaha 😭) until I supplemented Magnesium Citrate and have been smooth sailin since.

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Last year I went to one of those “designer” physician’s offices that offer IV cocktails and zero carb eating programs and hormone replacement therapy. Dropped $2,000 on Vitamin B shots, magnesium supplements and injections and my stomach was in knots. Their solution was to prescribe me a $1,000 prescription drug for IBS. I became hopeless at that point lol. Yeah I’ve got the money but this was clearly going to cost me exorbitant amounts. Just to lose a few pounds?

[–]bachbozo4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wowza, that's dedication right there. Sorry to hear.

Only eating fatty cuts made the world off a difference (forgot to mention); stickin below a 50/50 fat to protein messed me up. Maybe this could be the culprit?

[–]bachbozo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

but say zerocarb ain't for you; simply avoid lectins (which gluten is) and you'll be a- okay (imo)

[–]bachbozo5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you want my advice for coming to terms and not diet..

Psilocybin mushrooms will sequester that ego (where this dread derives from) with no remorse

"Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize nothing is lacking, the whole world belongs to you."

Lao Tzu

[–]notahappygirl211[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha I’ll give it a shot.

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy Link


[–]notahappygirl211[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties. Thanks for being irate, unhelpful and frankly, embarrassingly stupid.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Be polite or be quiet.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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