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Do any of you worry about the future of male and female relationship?

December 19, 2019

I can’t help it sometimes. I’ve been reading and watching MGTOW/RP content for over 2 years. While I learned a lot and have applied a lot of goods to my marriage for the better but I can’t help but wonder what the dating scene will be like in 15-20 years when my children are grown. It worries me but at the same time I don’t know what to do about it? Some will say, speak up and change marriage laws so family court will be fair. Sure, I get it, the system is broken and unfair and needs to be corrected but we are so, so far gone from where it used to be... that I just worry.

Does anyone worry and what are your thought, especially if you have children?

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Post Information
Title Do any of you worry about the future of male and female relationship?
Author my_chopin_liszt
Upvotes 139
Comments 123
Date December 19, 2019 10:46 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
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Original Link
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[–]Manny1400126 points127 points  (46 children) | Copy Link

I am a guy, and I have a lot of younger friends. About 50-60% of these guys never intend on marrying, and are completely black-pilled when it comes to women and marriage. Most of these guys are handsome, smart, have careers, etc. Some of them don't even date (full mgtow).

That was unheard of 20 years ago. All my friends back then (including myself) wanted to marry and have kids.

There are a lot of reasons for this. Online dating has created a "candy store" situation for women, where they select from only the top men, even if they themselves are of average appearance and have little to offer. And we have heard the stories of women sleeping with dozens of Chads throughout their 20s and then looking for marriage afterwards.

I'm sure women don't want to marry some guy who has been banging nightclub girls for the last 5 years, but has suddenly decided he wants to "settle down" and find a simple woman to bear his kids and clean the house. So guys are not enthusiastic about getting used goods, or being "plan B".

So the future of dating isn't going to be pretty for men or women. Most regular guys will simply opt out, no longer willing to play the game. This will leave a select group of men who will treat women like members of a harem. Most of those women will go unmarried and childless, but before that happens, they will have lots of sex.

[–]Whopper_Jr45 points46 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Also factor in divorce, family courts, obesity, pornography addiction, and sex robots on the way

[–]sonder_one1 Star15 points16 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

The porn and robots are a big one. Feminism teaches real women to offer no material or emotional support (that would be one-sided!). It also teaches them that working on their physical appearance should not be necessary, and the idea that they should is offensive. Fat is beautiful, as are the tattoos, piercings, and blue hair (one side shaved). Stunning and brave!

So man's perceived choices are:

  1. Real woman, who offers nothing but her ugly body and is emotionally abusive.
  2. Porn/robots, which are far better looking and come with none of the abuse.

Men will increasingly opt for #2. Feminists will tell them they're missing out on the things that a real woman could offer that those things can't, even as they continue to make sure that real women don't offer anything that robots can't.

Now, the RPW answer to these conditions is that the rare woman who does offer emotional/material support in spite of the cultural pressure not to will be valued, but as always, she won't get her foot in the door unless her body is at least someone competitive with the robots. Will that be possible as robots improve? Hard to say.

All we can do is our best.

[–]more_magic_mike17 points18 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You just skip the major factors and go straight to the things men do that are wrong.

Men aren't opting out of marriage for porn and sex robots. They are avoid marriage because of things like divorce, family courts and fear of commitment. Porn just makes them less willing to deal with a bad situation.

[–]MyNameIsSaifa2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a young man, I'd value both of those roughly equally.

I know the plural of anecdote isn't evidence but my view and the view of every friend of mine that isn't a full on Billy beta is that the only real reason for a relationship right now is the sense of companionship and intimacy with another person. The biggest reason I've found for men rejecting relationships and just sticking to one night stands or staying single is because the women that offer the above are so few and far between, and are either in relationships or are so far above their league (in relation to other women in western society, not on an absolute scale) that the reward for effort spent isn't worth it.

[–]sonder_one1 Star-4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Two replies attacking me, one from each side. Neither read my post very carefully.

In your case, your conclusion was literally my entire point. In the new calculus, it is becoming irrational for men to choose "real women" over the fakes. Much like lottery tickets, this will not be because there are no winners out there, but rather, because the odds are poor.

[–]fosho_away5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is very black and white. Women, including feminists and traditionalists alike, aren’t either all perfect supportive beauties OR abjectly abusive beasts.

[–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

she won't get her foot in the door unless her body is at least someone competitive with the robots. Will that be possible as robots improve?

  • Men who are at a level in their life where they could have anything they want, will always want what is not freely given to them.

  • Robots, ultimately, do not have free will, otherwise they'd be considered sentient beings.

The value of a real woman is much more than just pleasant company and a flexible sexy body (things that a robot can theoretically provide). I'm not even talking about making babies, because there's so much more to a person than their reproductive value.

Of course, people who don't understand the concept of individuality would "look for love" the way any robot would mindlessly do something they're programmed to do, and that's why the idea of being replaced by robots are so scary for them.

After all, not all human beings behave like sentient beings.

[–]sonder_one1 Star4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Two replies attacking me, one from each side. Neither read my post very carefully.

The increasingly widespread perception among both men and women is that women do not provide anything outside of sex in a relationship. What they are capable of providing is irrelevant if they do not provide it. Women who are influenced by feminism believe this and celebrate it. Men who experience these women and their messaging (which dominates the airwaves) also come to believe this.

Women providing no value to men outside of sex is feminism's "achievement". And of course, they expect to get far more out of sex than they put into it. Men are right to check out under these circumstances.

Life will become increasingly difficult for women who are genuinely "not like that", as they will be angling for increasingly skeptical men.

[–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

attacking me

read my post very carefully

If you've read my reply without personal hangups, you'd realize it wasn't an "attack".

as they will be angling for increasingly skeptical men

The better strategy would be to aim for intelligent men capable of thinking for themselves (you know, men who don't behave like mindless robots).

Men who don't/can't vet well are men with lousy judgement. Such men don't even trust themselves, and because of that, they have trust issues in general. Such men are unworthy of trust, let alone submission.

[–]rosesonthefloor2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

God, that sounds like a terrifyingly sad life-view.

[–]sonder_one1 Star10 points11 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

We can see our future in Japan, where sex is rare and the birth rate is far below replacement level.

[–]Manny14002 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it is going to be more like the Middle-East, where 10-20% of the men have access to essentially all of the women, and vast numbers of men remain single, either unwillingly, or through choice

The men in this 20% might have wives, but they will also have "kept women", or a kind of harem. The ugly women will be kept around as virtual servants or "Monday night dates", while the attractive ones will get a LTR or ring.

Just as in the stock market, a small percentage of people will control the valuation of the overall market, leaving the "individual investors" the scraps.

[–]SistaSoldatTorparen8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I highly doubt it. Their system has two elements we lack. Firstly the husband and the local community is allowed to police women and even use physical force to control women. Secondly the women are entirely dependent on the man for her income and physical safety.

We are more likely to end up in a situation where higher value women and some high value men get married and live traditionally. Then a large group of mid-level women who end up as single mothers and have various short-term relationships and FWB-arrangements. On the bottom we will get incels and femcels. People who are essentially banished from the dating market and who will become increasingly weird as they give up on it.

[–]Manny14001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

that is another possibility for sure. Just as automation is disrupting the manufacturing and transportation sectors, the Internet is impacting dating and relationships in a huge way.

The high value men may conclude (and are probably already concluding) that they can have virtual harems, and that marriage and kids would constrain them.

But that is where we get into the difference between high value men and women. Traditionally, a high value woman is not simply attractive, but also smart, cultured, from a good family, feminine, etc. A high value guy is simply a Chad with a 6 pack and a Tinder account.

[–]Man_of_Hour1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Maybe the real agenda behind feminism is to lower the population so we don’t get overpopulated and exhaust all our resources. It would make sense from a very wealthy and powerful groups perspective.

[–]lumberjackinla0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sad part is biology has decided millions of years ago that females and males are different in their own way. Modern day feminism for 50 years is trying to tell us that men and women are equal.

[–]kp45920 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think anyone is arguing that men and women are biologically equal. I’ve definitely never heard that.

[–]Dr__Noonian__Soong18 points19 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

This is bleak dude.

[–]TyroneTheDriver19 points20 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

It’s bleak, but it’s the truth.

I’m a man. I’m 29.

I’ve had a few serious relationships in the past, and in all of them I was aiming for marriage, family, and children. My old man left the family when I was 14 and I spiraled pretty badly trying to grow up until I was about 23. I always dreamed of being able to raise a son alongside a loyal doting feminine wife, and give that kid the best dad in the world, but that dream is being slowly eroded as my life experience continues to reinforce the absolute insanity of thinking I’d ever find the “unicorn”.

The first serious relationship ended when she assaulted me and then threatened to call the police and tell them I raped her if she didn’t get the cat in the breakup. I had known her for 14 years.

The second I caught posting online about how she was looking for a way to break up with me while pretending we were fine in person, even when I KNEW something was wrong and tried desperately to get some communication out of her. Granted I fault this one less, she was a good girl, she just wasn’t ready to be a wife and a mother and didn’t know how to deal with those emotions. She wanted to be a girl in the big city. She was 27.

The most recent I had put on a pedestal my entire life, we had dated when I was much younger and In high school and the army, had separated for a long tome and found each other again, all for her to admit while drunk that she had fucked a good friend of mine during her “slutty years” and they had both conspired not to tell me.

I’ve gone on tons of dates, honestly looking for a real relationship, met some good women and some real bad, but it’s empty. All of these women whether gorgeous or not are usually so absorbed with social media, surrounded by men and bombarded with so much false attention, raised in a completely gynocentric feminist paradise that they have delusions of grandeur, of being some kind of princess, while most bring nothing to the table of value, and every time I think I’ve found one who’s different, it always ends the same.

I know I shouldn’t be so pessimistic and maybe I’m just a tad heartbroken about the reality I’ve grown into. On top of all of this, I’m surrounded by women at work who are cresting thirty, desperately, vocally, strategically settling for that earner who makes money, after having amassed a body count that would make your stomach turn as a man... and don’t even get me started on the reality of divorce laws and alimony... I mean what in the absolute fuck?! My younger cousin is 23 and brags about how many boyfriends she can juggle at the same time.

Idk... I become single again... I swear off marriage, bid a very sorrowful fair well to my dream of a family, and focus on me. Things get better. I start to believe again. I meet someone. I try to build something, and it gets set on fire.

I’m lucky I’m young... I guess the dream isn’t completely dead yet... but it’s more of a self imposed blind optimism in the face of ever increasingly contradictory evidence at this point.

[–]HumectantMenace9 points10 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Sad thing is there's alot of women who are down for a settle down lifestyle from the beginning, at church. My cousin is one great example of that. 25 year old virgin who has not even entered one serious relationship in her life because men out here fooling around too. She has alot of friends in the church like that too. But they get called, "prude" all the time. But prude is not a bad thing. Marriage is where sexuality should be cultivated, period.

[–]rosesonthefloor-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well the opposite is getting married and then realizing you’re sexuality incompatible, but okay.

It’s smart to wait, but if you have preferences, it’s important to communicate about them.

[–]HumectantMenace4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe in sexually incompatible. If that was anyone it was my husband and I when we first got married. But four years later we have learned to communicate and have amazing sex.

[–]rosesonthefloor1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m really glad that you guys worked it out! That’s awesome, and communication is really what it’s all about. It’s great you were able to communicate to make things better.

However, you only have to take a look at r/deadbedrooms to realize that sexual incompatibility is real. All I was saying is that it’s important to communicate ahead of time if you have particular preferences (which can include your expectations of how much sex to have). This is part of the vetting process. Spending your life unhappy because your husband doesn’t want sex, or wants sex way more than you do, doesn’t sound like a fun time.

[–]HumectantMenace2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ooof you're right. Another paradigm thing that I dont run into. Christianity also speaks about not depriving the other sexually so I guess that's a mutual thing we had going into marriage as well. That must suck. Sometimes there's times where I'm not in the mood to have sex, new mom i have every reason not to, but it just takes a little effort to get in that sexy mindset and switch gears. I think the rare exception is asexual, etc and yes it's important to discuss before marriage. I don't like the concept of "testing the vehicle before you bring it home." I think that's a poor representation of sexual compatibility. But it's def worth a conversation.

[–]ZigZagProton6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

At least you never get into the marriage hell, some men are facing the truth after marriage and they are crushed emotionally and financially.

[–]TyroneTheDriver6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the only silver lining for me.

[–]Dr__Noonian__Soong4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

God I’m sorry for all this. I know men have so much to navigate through and no one ever talks about it. Well, to give you hope, I’m a woman and my husband and I have been married for 18 years. We are 40. We’re happy. So it happens. Good luck, chin up.

[–]Manny14002 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was 29 when I met my future wife (still married). Like you, I went through some crummy relationships, or ones I knew wouldn't work. But I tried to always have LTRs with some level of commitment.

But check this out: I know a 31 year old girl who hasn't been in a relationship for like 5 years (no sex). It isn't because she isn't pretty--she's adorable. Not only that, she is smart, has a graduate degree, excellent career and owns a home. She is traditional in outlook, not some flaky leftist or feminist. Cultured and sweet. If I weren't happily married to my wife, I would go marry her.

And she can't find a guy. The dudes on social media are worthless fukbois or losers. The guys IRL seem to all have some major disqualification. So it isn't just guys going through this stuff--some women are having problems finding the right person as well

So don't give up--it is a numbers game, but you still have time

[–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not only that, she is smart, has a graduate degree, excellent career and owns a home.

It's refreshing to see a comment like this here.

More often than not, men with no interest in marriage come here to lecture women about how a woman's achievements aren't important to men (this is valid at TRP because marriage isn't the goal there). Any woman here who is married to a high quality man know that's simply not true, no matter how many men thumping the TRP-bible insists it's true.

[–]Ainsley_McRub0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Reading this actually upset me. No word of a lie I've been through exactly the same thing pretty much word for word. I'm a 29 year old man as well.

I Hope you find what you're looking for someday and don't let reality get you down.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Exactly my thoughts.

[–]goodbeer114 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A married man here, with friends in their 20 as well. I'm 40. What he wrote are my exact thoughts on the subject too. I have a couple of teen'ish aged girls.... And so, the state of dating in 20 years is something I think about often.

[–]jlp216171 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

"I'm sure women don't want to marry some guy who has been banging nightclub girls for the last 5 years, but has suddenly decided he wants to "settle down" and find a simple woman to bear his kids and clean the house. So guys are not enthusiastic about getting used goods, or being "plan B". "

But.... men have ALWAYS done this???? And its a problem now only because women are too, apprently. How about, we ALL- male AND female- have the sexual experiences we want, and then settle down when we are ready for it?? If you are a grown ass man who is insecure about his potential partner having relationships before you, you are not normal. Grow up. Get therapy.

Also, i see WAAAAYYYY more women "dating down" than men. And dating isn't some huge smorgasboard of the most eligible men for us. Its hard to find one who isn't a douche. Newsflash: women don't worry about just fucking whoever is hottest. Sex isnt usually so important to us that its all we are concerned about in relationships. You fucked one "Chad", you've fucked em all, pretty much. Empty sex isn't that fun to have constantly. That said, it CAN be fun SOMETIMES, or maybe all the time for some women, who tf knows. And thats fine too. Im so sick of men whining about how women have all the options now due to the internet and its just NoT fAiR just because Stacy the neurosurgeon/stripper won't come to their mom's basement to put out, make chicken tenders, clean their room, and wipe their ass for them, now that she can see that she has options. If you want a partner, do the work-physical and personal- to make yourself a great partner. Women mostly will date an ugly guy if he is really kind, or sweet to people, or funny af, or has alot in common w her. Ive dated many 'Chad' fratboys, true, but ive also dated blue collar consturction workers, several guys that were pretty ugly but made me fucking lol, some average guys who were just cool af and great people. What we want is someone with a great personality and who is a good partner. Of course physical attraction counts too but that also increases even with ugly people when we click with someone. So looksmax but also chill tf out. Its not the only important thing.

As for OPs question, no i dont worry about the future of relationships. Humans are wired to seek companionship,life partners, and reproduction. There will always be relationships. They may look a bit different, but they wont cease to exsist.

[–]Manny14008 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think that is how things used to be for the most part: the old paradigm. Some women still behave that way (dating a guy for his personality and character, kindness, etc.), but the women who are doing the online dating, and the women who are in college, have options open to them now, that they never did before.

Those ugly guys you speak of are not going to get any dates through dating apps. Not even the average guys get dates, and this has ben proven through research (although more studies need to be done).

I am not saying that women are entirely superficial, but if they are given a buffet of men, and the men outnumber them 10 to 1, what are they going to do? A girl isn't going to focus so much on finding a guy through traditional means in her everyday life--she is going to find Chad on the Internet, even if she is very average herself.

Now I am in my late 40s, but when I was in my 20s, I was probably in that 20% of men. Not Henry Cavill, but tall, fit, and pretty good looking. Highly educated and cultured, and from a good family. If stuff like Tinder, Bumble, etc. existed back then, I would have been getting a lot more dates, and probably getting involved with a lot more women --and that might not have been a good thing at all. Guys who start developing harems of women become distracted womanizers, and start sleeping with low-quality females.

A girl almost never "dates down" unless she has low SMV herself, or is getting older. I have seen several female friends with unrealistic standards pass over men, only to hit their early 30s and start panicking. That is when they start dating down.

And if a girl is having trouble getting dates, simple changes to her attitude, dress, and hair can turn everything around very quickly. American girls walk around in sweat pants and t-shirts, with unkempt hair, dropping f bombs right and left, and then wonder why guys aren't particularly interested.

But you are correct--men have settled down with women who have had their fun in the their 20s, gotten married, had kids, etc. I did that (wife had a lot more partners than I did before we got married), but that was back when things were different. Guys were not as knowledgable about this stuff and had much lower standards when it came to the behavior of women.

Now I am happy I married my wife, but the "me" of today would have broken things off with her upon hearing about her past. The marriage never would have happened. I was part of that Gen X, anything goes, who cares, generation. Guys of today are generally NOT like that.

[–]rosesonthefloor0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

How is your relationship with your wife?

[–]Manny14000 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

it's very good. She is honest, reliable, and affectionate

[–]rosesonthefloor0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That’s great to hear!

Are you holding her past against her? It seems, based on your last post, that it’s somewhat in your mind at least.

E: spelling

[–]Manny14001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have had to tap into my Stoic philosophy to let that go. Yeah, it did bother me, and still bothers me a bit, but it isn't something that will impact our marriage.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

deleted What is this?

[–]rosesonthefloor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well realistically any woman who wants a man like that needs to put in work, and the reality is that many women don’t. I think it’s a matter of people across the board buying into the “be yourself” movement to mean “I don’t have to change ever” which leads them to think they deserve rewards for under performing.

Ultimately you want to make yourself worthy of a partner and those who don’t should not automatically deserve a partner (barring serious health/mental concerns, etc. which are also not a reason to make someone stay in a relationship).

[–]CazyPablo-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your opinion sounds more like a rant than a thorough analysis of what you think the current climate around dating is like.

[–]vw211220 points21 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Some of it may be a result of asynchronous communication channels like texting, email, help desk systems, etc. The paradigm has shifted to where the vast majority lives and breathes communication this way in multiple ways.

All of it encourages immediate response (and also disappointment when not there) and lets people avoid what they aren’t comfortable with, and answer when they feel is best-if at all.

Really then, the question is, how do they behave in a conversation face to face? Maybe one that’s not trivial? What happens when they get bored by the other person? Or become uncomfortable talking about a situation? Can they “show up” and feel comfortable “being seen” and “seeing” other people as they are?

Are all these transactional communications allowing people to believe it’s ok to behave like they do online? Do they just disappear on someone during the middle of a conversation IRL too and feel ok about it?

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]vw21120 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know, right?! :) but in all seriousness, it’s kind of many people will respond better to transactional conversation vs engaged conversation? What gets more breakthroughs?

[–]LocalReligionMajor32 points33 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Tbh, maybe it's my age (20F), but I don't know many men irl whose aversion to marriage stems from family court issues. Men are avoiding marriage because they enjoy hook up culture and because they don't need to marry a woman to sleep with her. Most guys I know plan on getting married eventually, when they want children and after dating a woman for a very long time, which they believe will mitigate the risk of divorce. The men who are interested in marriage at a young age are religious.

I think conservative communities are just going to become more insular. Especially with the divisive and intolerant nature of politics today. I realized pretty quickly I could only date conservative Catholic men, so I knew I had to do the work of seeking out the conservative Catholic community. I think marriage-minded women will be fine as long as they are willing to put in the work of finding men with a similar mentality.

Most of my conservative homeschool Christian friends are engaged or in serious LTRs. I don't think the dating scene is or will be ruined for people who eschew hook up culture.

[–]Man_of_Hour14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hookup culture only works for 10-20% of men. The rest are left in the dust hoping to find a woman that hasn’t had kids with a loser already

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

deleted What is this?

[–]LocalReligionMajor3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I just ignore that and am the weird girl who's planning on getting married next year. But again, I was homeschooled, so I'm comfortable being the weird girl XD

[–]OhNeptune_00244 points45 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Yup. It's already so broken. A lot of things have become normalized and it's not getting better. Groups like this keep my hope alive but ultimately in the long term I low key feel the times where you grew old together are long gone. If wr are struggling this hard today, tomorrow will not be better unless we made steps to fix this yesterday and people seem to have no interest in that.

As for kids. That would be a main reason to not have them.

[–]Frrrosty18 points19 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Killing off your bloodline because your kids might have a marginally less pleasant life than you is insane.

[–]sebastianconcept7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No is not. If you cared to be psychologically healthy but then you have kids that the educational system poisons in ideology, you’re fucked up. Homeschooling can help but that depends where you are. The communist party is trans-national and is poisoning everything everywhere to subvert the western world.

[–]Animalcrossing4eva0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Where does homeschooling not work??

[–]sebastianconcept2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In countries where is illegal.

[–]Animalcrossing4eva0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then leave those countries!

[–]OhNeptune_00210 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The world we live in is insane. I rather not have my child jailed for being male over some stupid bs or have my girls live in a world obsessed with social media and vapidness.

[–]Frrrosty14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I grew up in an extremely liberal city and I turned out extremely conservative. Nothing is for certain. Even if the world goes to hell soon, I'm sure any kids you may have will be thankful you gave them the gift of life rather than conceding to fear.

[–]Rexguy120-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bro what fucking kids. No damn psychological harm can come to people who don't exist. Keep your children safe in the void instead of reproducing for your selfish desire of "having kids". Fuck off.

[–]Animalcrossing4eva-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let his genes and memes die with him! Our grandchildren will be better off without his grandchildren in the gene pool.

[–]lumberjackinla6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well we have reached the pinnacle in the west. Feminism has turned from empowering women to be great women into a male hating world. Boomers with no fault divorce have screwed up marriage and family value and learning from our parents we millennial have learnt that women get everything after divorce and men get nothing.

Men are checking out big time and women are looking for brad pitts on Tinder until they cross 35. With fertility clinics and instagrams women think they can have kids till 50. What is happening is women have turned into man haters. The end is close. Either women will change or america will get invaded and turn women to what women were.

[–]melitele313 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I am not worried. I am married. I know my relationship will be well. I don’t think choices many people are making these days are wise but ultimately I don’t care what they are doing because I believe everyone should live how it suits them.

As for my kids (I don’t have any yet but plan to in the future) I am not worried as well. I am not religious and I don’t plan to force any of my political views on them. All I want for them is to grow up in a healthy environment, loving family and teach them to think critically and be wise. If they learn how world works and they are intelligent, they will know what values are important. We don’t know what future will bring but what I know is that when there is imbalance, the resistance grows. There will always be traditionally minded people in the world and if my kids will choose to be traditional themselves they will be able to find like minded souls.

If my kids don’t turn out traditional it will be solely their choice. I don’t want to have kids to create clones of myself or reflections of my own beliefs.

[–]HumectantMenace2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]fosho_away42 points43 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

People will adapt socially and always be able to find love even if things change a lot. I’m more concerned with the health of the environment and economic stability for my future kids.

[–]MyNameIsSaifa2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ideally, yes. In reality, no. The breakup of the atomic family in favour of degeneracy is the social adaptation to reliable birth control/abortion/White goods/the internet.

Seriously, look at all the things which feminist "academics" say have liberated women and then look at the empirical change they've had on society.

Not to say that we shouldn't innovate etc. but to solve the problems these things cause requires society as a whole to at least acknowledge that they're not panacaeas

[–]FoxyVixenGirl2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not to distract from the point, but what you mean to say is “nuclear” family. An atomic family describes Dr. Manhattan and his relatives.

[–]MyNameIsSaifa1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Was lifting, have small brain. Thanks.

[–]fosho_away1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, with each wave of social change that has occurred, there has been blustering doom and gloom about how families as we know it will crumble! Protestantism, suffrage, interracial marriage, etc. Yet people still have families. It’s in our dna, and we are here able to make choices.

[–]LethalShade-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. The genders will adapt from this and come together better than ever, I'm 100% sure of it. Use the knowledge to avoid the pitfalls of those that came before you and embrace the love young ones ;)

[–]relaxilla42016 points17 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I already feel bad for younger people who are dating. I genuinely dont think I could make it in the modern dating game. I thank god for my fiancee.

The thought of using something like Tinder makes me nauseous yet everyone I know in their 20s uses it, almost exclusively, to meet the opposite sex. Sounds fucking awful.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My concern with online dating is that the young generation won't know the fantasies and the game and the chase and the lures and antics that "real life crushes" allow.

Don't you remember how you would see a cute guy and think of ways to attract him? Like try to dress cute and cross paths? Or for men, he'd have to think of excuses to talk to a girl / he'd have to man up and be brave and potentially face rejection while talking to a girl??

Nowadays it's just way too instant - and you already know everything about each other before even meeting. Absolutely no mystery. No prolongation or fantasies. Before you'd have to try to SLOWLY build up the tension and now it's just "fuck each other or fuck off."

[–][deleted]  (9 children) | Copy Link


[–]relaxilla4202 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I met my fiancee online too. I think organic online relationships are fine. But automatically swiping left and right on every body within a 10 mile radius of you and meeting for a hookup is not generally a good way to form a lasting relationship. The men on there arent looking for anything serious either. Its just sad, and to see people judge their self worth by it makes me depressed.

[–]Manny14000 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

when I was in my 20s, before online dating, the whole idea of a "hookup" was alien to me.

Even my most womanizing male friends were not out having one-night stands. Sure, some of them had short-term relationships, but sex almost never happened on the first date, and I only saw one girl ever respond to a buddy's "bootie call" for a fun time.

I had 7 partners before meeting my wife, and not once did we get together by virtue of a ONS or FWB situation. The whole idea of that didn't even occur to me--it simply wasn't what we did. And this was the 90s!

Do women these days really want to be in the harems of promiscuous men?

[–][deleted]  (6 children) | Copy Link


[–]Manny14000 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

it is a vicious circle. The RP guys complain endlessly about female behavior (promiscuity, hypergamy, etc.), but it takes two to Tango. If men were not allowing such behavior to continue, and contributing to the culture that makes it possible it would not be happening.

A vast majority of women could do much better than a hookup or FWB, and they know it. But women's magazines, television, and other women tell them "go for it!", and there is always some dude waiting out there who will make it happen.

I was never promiscuous, and I was (and still am) good-looking. I used to teach at a college, and my rateyourprofessor reviews were filled with comments from female students saying how hot I was lol. I also had a lot of education, money, etc. ONS and similar behavior was not my style, and I didn't want that reputation. I sought out quality women for LTRs. I honestly wanted romance with a girl I could connect with on multiple levels--I was picky.

And I know other attractive, quality guys like me.

[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy Link


[–]Manny14002 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

not always. It depends

A guy I work with isn't a Chad. He is like 5'9 and balding, but not ugly. He is like a 5-6 / 10

But, he is one of the smartest, most well-read guys I've ever encountered. Awesome to talk to. He has a great sense of humor, a job that pays 6 figures with good prospects for advancement. He is a terrific musician (guitar), dresses well. He is a pretty devout Catholic and completely honest. A dude that would never cheat, simply on principle.

But he is frozen out of the dating scene because he isn't 6+ feet tall with a full-head of hair. So he sits on the sidelines while women complain about all the good guys being taken.

[–]42gauge0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which job?

[–]Manny14000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Finance / markets

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I was 19, I used online dating for about a week. I would’ve had to paid a fee if I wanted to send messages but I was able to receive/read them. The first day I got like a dozen messages. Seriously, I deleted the account, it was too overwhelming. I was just curious but it was a no thanks for me.

[–]JohnPettimore5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I do worry. I have three daughters -- late teens and early twenties. Thanks to the legal system, they grew up without me. Their mother, who was a lawyer, decided that she wanted to divorce me and move all the way across the country. My options were either a protracted, hugely expensive and unbelievably destructive legal war (I'm a lawyer, too, among other things) or to let her go. I let her go.

My daughters have no firsthand idea what a good relationship looks like. And I am actively MGTOW, although I don't speak to them about it. The damage from the divorce, both financial and emotional, was so bad that I am never going through that again, no matter what. I had no chance. The deck was stacked against me and my girls from the start. I know exactly what a good marriage is and how it works -- my parents were married for 40 years, and it was a great thing. But believing in that now, unless you're incredibly lucky, is simply suicide.

And speaking rationally, I'm pretty much a catch. I'm 6'2". I have an Ivy League law degree. I make a mid six-figure income, and I own the business. I'm a good guy -- truly. But there is no way I'm going near marriage again, and I actively advise younger men not to, also. Which means what for my daughters? If good men understand that marriage is a ridiculous risk, what's left for them?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Gosh, I’m so sorry to hear that. I’ve heard stories like yours more than couple times. I knew a couple men who gave up the fight not because they don’t love their kids but the fight would cost them their homes, retirement, wellbeing, sanity... So I don’t blame you.

[–]JohnPettimore2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, the most important issue to me was that it would have seriously traumatized my daughters. Years of Mommy and Daddy trying to destroy each other in court, being interviewed by shrinks, testifying, etc. Nothing is worth that.

[–]rthayerf15 points16 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

No. I think that if my children are raised in traditionalist Catholic communities, they'll easily be able to find other children raised in the same environment.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I see where you come from but at some point they have to face the world. I’ve seen teenagers who were raised well in the Christian environment but as soon they go to college, it all changed. I have a family member who homeschooled her daughters and raised heavily in the church and in the end, they’re all into careers and being a feminist.

[–]rthayerf-5 points-4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Maybe. But then again, women don't really need to go to college, so...

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Under traditionalism where men are obligated to provide for women and women married at a young age, absolutely. But under the current situation... sigh

I’m from a religious background and even feminism is leaking into our church. Women go to college and accumulate tens of thousands of debt and want to be stay at home moms. Makes no sense. I know girls within our church who went wild in their early 20s and then come back to church later to “repent.”

[–]rthayerf7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. Sure is nonsense.

[–]LateralThinker134 Stars-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

but as soon they go to college, it all changed.

That's why you don't send them to radical liberal/feminist indoctrination camps college. You send them to trade school or the military where they actually learn USEFUL life skills.

[–]jtriangle18 points19 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not terribly worried. Life finds a way, and men and women are designed to be together. It's in our wiring. It's important to realize that there aren't many bonefied incels IRL, and they're massively over-represented in media and online.

As far as MGTOW's, they're out in the real world, but they mostly don't participate online, so the real properly redpilled MGTOW's are actually under-represented. Online, MGTOW's are mostly either closeted incels or redpilled men going through their bitterness phase, probably because the real ones are busy "going their own way" and don't derive much value from participating in an internet forum. Additionally, most of the MGTOW-aligned men that I've met IRL are fully open to dating and even marriage, they're just not looking for it actively. If some HB8-10 falls in their laps, they're more than happy to entertain their company.

What I'd personally like to see is a complete abolition of state-regulated marriage. Let marriage be contractual at most. That gets rid of most of the nonsense that really blackpills people on marriage.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Get the government out of the business of marriage.

[–]HB32345 Stars3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am honestly not worried. Research shows "kids these days" lose their virginity at a later age than before, they volunteer more than their parents did, they drink less and do fewer drugs. The kids are okay. The kids are great. I have full faith they will find their way to each other, lovingly.

[–]ApuAllAlone2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My advice to you would be to try finding similar minded people with children that could potentially marry yours in the future.

It's the only thing we can do as individuals. We aren't gonna be able to change the system.

[–]Icenri2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not seeing anyone concerned about girls that are just average or less than average attractive and don't have access to that online chad market and thus have chosen to become femcels, lesbian or bi out of spite of finding good men in the outside. Sometimes they can find a cohort of insecure men to follow them online but they are obviously not interested in them.

I think that part of the blame here also lies upon men not going outside. Go out any Saturday night or Sunday morning and you can find packs of chicks filling up bars and cafes so a daring man could approach them and try his luck. That's the only strategy that worked for me and I'm a happy man in a 6-year relationship: confidence and close distances.

I think that Internet has actually helped dating to some extent but it's been the Recession that has left men broke and without opportunities to climb the social hierarchy to become attractive enough to the average woman.

tl;dr: Internet helped dating but economic stress caused sexual stress, failed men and disappointed women.

[–]tsabhijith2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Before there was only Yes or No & only 2 persons involved. Now additional thing called #MeToo come and it destroys a guy & his family with the support of social media & news. I even know an actress who accused a random guy of raping her with eyes while sitting in a restaurant, she clicked his picture and posted it ( ) People like that are out there.

[–]more_magic_mike1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not entirely men's fault

[–]Icenri0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

True. I stopped being a failed man because I met a woman who supported me and gave me an opportunity instead of disregarding me. Many other before had given me the cold look and are now doing much worse than her.

[–]sebastianconcept1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, a lot more of MGTOW and manginas

[–]JaneAdamz1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The best thing you can do is be set an example with your actions for your kids

[–]frvalne1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do. I also have kept up-to-date on the MGTOW movement. I have a lovely little girl and two cute little boys. What are their relationship prospects like?

[–]lumberjackinla2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

nature will remove the weak women and men. most probably kids will be marrying their iphone version 200.00.

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy Link


[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

With the way you’re speaking, I know what religion you came from and I agree. My nieces are struggling with this right now.

[–]loneliness-inc4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You can only change yourself. You cannot change anyone else.

What parts of feminism are you willing to give up?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

It’s not so much about what I’m willing to give up. I do believe there needs to be a balance of authority and responsibility. For example, we hear so much from women that it’s “my body my choice.” Well, if that’s the standard then men can also have “my money my choice.” So we have to decide what we want, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

You can’t embrace the part of feminism that benefits you and reject the part of traditionalism that doesn’t benefit you. It’s contradictory.

Just my 2 cent.

[–]just_a_mum1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm fairly certain that the people who are shouting my body, my choice are not expecting money from men.

[–]thesillymachine6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The argument is if women can choose to have a baby or not, then men can choose not to pay child support.

[–]loneliness-inc2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm fairly certain that the people who are shouting my body, my choice are not expecting money from men.


You mean to say they're consistent?

[–]prettyprincess911 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And those same women are likely out earning men and would think “my money, my choice”

[–]Hammocknapping3 Stars0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think it’s necessarily a part of feminism, but I think more women should consider private marriage as an alternative to legal marriage.

I’m not keen on the idea of being legally married to my husband, because I would never know if he was with me because he loved me or because he didn’t want to go through the expensive, risky process of divorce.

Even though my husband is pretty insulated from the risks of divorce (He is the one who is retired and stays home, we have equal levels of education but I have a slightly greater earning potential, and we are child free) I didn’t want him to take any unnecessary risks.

In a private marriage, we get all of the benefits of a commitment without having to involve the state.

[–]HumectantMenace0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't find issues like this in my paradigm. I believe it's because I started dating when I was apart of church culture. Most of my friends in church are married, had no problem finding a partner, dating, and getting married. I think this has to do with the culture we are in and the support the church has to offer couples with dating and counseling the relationships. Also accountability. There is accountability to remain faithful to a partner, for men to uphold male roles of leadership, headship & women to uphold roles of femininity, submission. Also general kindness and respect toward one other. You cant be a single Christian male and respect women by using them to sleep with in a one night stand. You cant get away with that in a culture that condemns that. Same with women.

All that to say, it has to do with values & community.

[–]Animalcrossing4eva0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You need to find a faith community so that your children can find a partner raised with similar values. In the very long term things will work out through evolution. The genes and cultural memes that lead to low birthrate will be weeded out. The Duggar’s and the Kardashians will propagate their genes and memes through the population. You just need to shield yourself from mainstream society for now. That means no public school! K-12 or college. The divorce laws don’t matter if you don’t get divorced. This is almost all cultural not legal and we can choose what culture we engage with.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]tsabhijith0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can be optimistic that next generation of kids will obey whatever their parents says. But there is no guarantees. Not all people who believes/follows MGTOWs & childless career woman ideology had single mothers or single fathers. Some/Many might have a stable religious families. After all that if they turn out like that, there is no guarantees about future generations.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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