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"Do you want children or not?" My answer...depends.

October 31, 2019

It's great that society has accepted that a woman can choose to want children or stay childfree. As long as you make it clear early on, it's a fair game.

However, for me and I personally struggled with my decision a lot, depends. My stance is similar to marriage. I want children IF we can afford it without sacrificing lifestyle then I will have kids. However, IF I married a poorer man that cannot afford children, then I'd rather be childfree.

My sentiment is very similar to "I'd rather stay single than be in a bad marriage". However, society thinks it's selfish when it is "I'd rather be childfree than financially struggle with a child."

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Post Information
Title "Do you want children or not?" My answer...depends.
Author catsuramen
Upvotes 116
Comments 31
Date October 31, 2019 1:45 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link
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[–]nessabhensley 80 points81 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you are being responsible. If you have a child, you need to be able to pay for it.

[–]jeffwingersballs -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wish this were true.

[–]melitele3 62 points63 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Many people believe that kids care about materialistic world. I was a kid who grew up in a very poor family in a post-communist country. My parents and my sibling lived in a one room in a shared house. We all slept on couch until I was 9 and I was given gifts only once a year during Christmas. My biggest pocket money I ever got was maybe 1 dollar per week. Yet I remember I had extremely happy childhood. I played outside nonstop, explored woods, built with snow, made friends with kids from other villages, went hunting with my dad, harvested crops and I never once thought I am poor. Kids do not care about toys if parents don’t raise them to crave and worship them. If you are a creative and energetic parent, you can create wonders with your children spending no money at all. My mom would cut out shapes in potatoes and paint them and we used them as stamps. We used to paint and colour eggshells. These were our attractions. I would never say I lacked anything. Disneyland, toys and all that crap …. They really don’t matter in the end. I don’t remember many of the toys I had. It is the society, lazy parents, tv, internet and other kids that engrave these ‘needs’ into our brains.

Today in world there are millions of children that live in poor families - are they doomed to be unfulfilled and unhappy? Depression and mental health problems are usually connected to middle class and higher-class people.

I think the argument ‘I want to give better experience to my kids’ is not truthful. The truth is that it is the parents who don’t want to give their comfort up or these material joys up. They have a dream family picture in their head and if they can’t afford trips and shopping sprees, they won’t consider having kids.

Now to be clear - I don’t think it is wrong. Everyone has their own expectations and demands. I just think it is better not to say that they are doing it for the kids. It is them who want the trips, clothes, shopping, experiences and attractions. They should just say that they value those more than having kids and that would be truthful.

I don’t think it is selfish to have or not to have a kid. Although kids can definitely teach you selflessness.

[–]cassandrarose39 39 points40 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It does warm my heart that you have beautiful stories being poor. I unfortunately do not.

I remember standing hours in line for our weekly food box where the contents were plain white boxes with black lettering: POWDERED MILK, CHEESE, BUTTER, ect. Cramped office settings and lines at health and welfare. The food stamps that were literally stamp paper looking things 😂.

But that wasn’t the worst. The worst was the people around us who lived and interacted with us and the men my mom brought home. Crippling poverty and addiction was rampant.

I wanted to play the saxophone and the school had zero funding so I sat in that class for the whole year. Schools care even less about the impoverished and they took my “quietness” as stupidness or worse defiance. No one could take the time to see what’s going on in any kids home when every kid in your classroom comes from an abusive home.

So I agree, don’t become a parent if you can’t be a parent. Being poor means you live in poor areas and all that goes with that. It’s not as simple as: be poor but show love. I think these sugarcoating sayings are ridiculous and I question if people who say these things even have experience poverty once in their life.

[–]vintagegirlgame 30 points31 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would think being poor in a bad area of a city is very different than poor in a rural country area where the child can spend a lot of time in nature.

[–]paprikasegg 15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think being poor can be a better experience when you're surrounded by other people in the same boat. I was not. I was abused and neglected and dirty whereas the other kids at my school paraded around iPhones and birthday parties and excluded me in everything for being "the poor kid" and it was awful. Money isn't everything but it is a factor.

[–]melitele3 23 points24 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I guess it depends on the situation, family and country where you grow up.

People that struggle with alcohol, drugs etc should not have children. People who live in areas where crimes, abductions and shootings are daily events, should not have children.

I grew up in a mountain village (100 habitants), no electricity in winters, no doctor and one school for 20 villages. There were no extra classes, instruments or things we could learn. 90% of people were on the same financial level. All kids just felt equal. So I was never bullied for being poor and no one cared how you looked. Our village was extremely peaceful and safe. There was no alcohol, abuse or drugs. Community was very strong and everyone was friends. So I did not experience the poverty of people living in big cities, in bad areas or being compared to others.

I just think it depends what people describe as “afford”. I think basic things are roof over head, enough food, weather appropriate clothes and not using kids to make money. I think if you can provide those you can afford kids. It is a matter of your own personal standard of living.

[–]cassandrarose39 16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a good point. It might work under your living conditions but I grew up mostly on the out skirts of LA when my mother wasn’t dragging me all over the USA 😂.

I didn’t experience being poor on some farm or rural area where everyone is the same and help each other. So you’re going to have a far different story than me.

[–]gdobssor 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wasn’t abused, neglected or dirty. It’s just that most of my clothes were either gifts or from the thrift store. When I asked my mom for a PS1, she immediately said no, because my parents couldn’t afford it. Same with a game boy or any other new technology. The TV was an old thing out of the 70s that only had three channels and no remote. I was 13 when we finally got it replaced, so about 2005. When I was really young, we only had one car and it was second hand. We never bought a brand new car. The nicest thing we owned was probably the piano, which was inherited from my grandmother.

[–]Iamthewalrus482 15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m glad you have happy childhood memories, but it’s selfish to have kids if you can not provide basic needs.

Most people want to give their child a home and clothes that aren’t hand me downs or whatever. I had a crappy childhood for other reasons but being poor definitely didn’t help

[–]melitele3 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it depends what people mean by providing. For me providing means: nutritious food, shelter, hygienic space, safety, clothes that are clean and appropriate to weather and books. What I described in my comment I think are basic needs. New trendy clothes, iPhones, private schools, trips abroad and gifts for Christmas are not basic needs in my opinion.

No matter how rich or poor you are if you grow up in toxic environment you won’t be happy. So I think environment and community matters the most.

[–]MissPrissySunshine 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Grew up impoverished in modern America. I concur.

[–]life_of_an_artist 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you for your insights. It’s so heartwarming to hear the great stories about your childhood; reminds me of my mother’s stories about hers (she also grew up poor, in a communist country).

Respectfully, though, I’ll have to disagree with some of what you’re saying here. I understand that it’s stupidly frivolous of a parent to think that just because they can’t give their child Disneyland or an iPad that child shouldn’t exist. That I agree with.

However, there are some things about poverty that I wouldn’t want to subject a child to, such as college tuition. The only reason my parents can provide for my sister and me is because they are highly educated (government full scholarships) and because of their sacrifices I’m able to go to aspire to go to an Ivy League-level college without worrying about a job or financial aid. Nowadays, the key to a comfortable salary is further education, which I want to fully provide my child. They shouldn’t have to make my parents’ sacrifices because my parents already did that to prevent future generations of their family from going through the same thing.

[–]melitele3 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is something I can’t relate to since I am from Europe and education and healthcare is free here. Universities are also free. The best universities in my country are public and easily accessible.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I thought I wanted maybe two kids. But when I married my husband he has two lovely daughters already. After a year I was ready for more, and now we are thinking about number five. We could never have this many if he weren’t able to support us all, though. I think you are being smart. We should only bring in kids when we know we can reasonably expect to be able to care for them properly.

[–]littlepearlisland 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have a question if you don't mind. It always seems jump from two to three was a larger decision than going from three to four. Do you think that was accurate for your family? One of my good friends was one of four and her mom always said that she barely noticed the added work load when the baby came along. The chaos levels were about the same.

[–]vintagegirlgame 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think once you have 3+ the older kids help a lot with the child care. I was the oldest of 4 and I helped a lot w my little siblings.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Three to four didn’t feel like a huge change, no. By the time you are having the fourth, the older kids are a lot more self sufficient and helpful.

[–]kaylazomg 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Children are soooooooo high maintenance which is where the term “it takes a village to raise a kid” comes from. Back when people would help each other out with entertaining and teaching the kids things. One person simply can’t do it all because one person has their own life. They can’t spend all their time on their child and plus burnout is a real thing... jobs, family, etc. so I completely understand wanting a secure family before you raise a child.. it’s a HUGE responsibility and NO ONE talks about the difficulties of raising children only the lovely moments. You’re smart for thinking of your future child instead of having a child alone with little help like my sister, she was so desperate for a child thinking the child would fill her empty heart of warmth and love, so she had one with an alcoholic bi polar abusive manipulative insecure man child. Now she’s a single mother and won’t shut up about her ex. But we CHOSE the people we want in our lives and she chose to have a baby before she was financially secure and she chose to have a baby with an unreliable man and now she is homeless living with mom and stepdad and has little energy and time to give to her child that she so desperately wanted. She works 50 hours a week and burnout form a shitty job will leave you empty and no energy to spend giving your child playtime or teaching them. So ya I think you’ve got your cap screwed on right

[–]Throwaway230306 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that's a sensible approach to approach modern parenting (within reason--there's probably no perfect time to have kids if you really want them, so don't wait too long).

That said, people have always considered the economic, tangible impact of kids. I wouldn't say it's purely selfish. In the not too distant past, children were expected to work or contribute to a household at a pretty early age, offsetting the expense of raising them. For the rich, kids were a way to pass down inheritance, property, make marriage alliances, etc.

I don't doubt that parents have always been bummed out by the expense of raising kids who could neither work or enrich a family via marriage. (Think of the plot of Pride and Prejudice--five daughters, all without money, making them hard to marry off and impossible to put to work because they were a bit too upper class for jobs. What a nightmare for their parents.)

Kids today in developed countries are not expected to contribute anything material to the family, so it's not irrational for potential parents to weigh the pros and cons of having them in the first place.

[–]Aruno 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Having children is always a sacrifice of your time, money and life style.

My children bring me motivation and joy that I would of never known without them.

If you do it. It is a full time commitment. It takes away your idea of your life and replaces with something more than you can see.

[–]Trisaratop36 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I always feel like I’m being perceived as selfish OR like I’m the one judging other families when I say I don’t want any MORE kids. I have 2. If we had an endless supply of money I would have like 5 kids. I LOVE kids! But I love being able to DO STUFF with them. I personally would be miserable if I had a bunch of kids but couldn’t afford to actually GO places with them. I know plenty of people with the same amount of income and more children than us. They’re happy, and that’s great for them. I just know it’s not for me. Being a family of 4 (for us!) is perfect. We can still go out to eat, see a movie, buy plane tickets, go to Disney World, buy school supplies and have a nice Christmas. If I had another one we would have to buy a new family car, bigger house, etc. and eating out/ going places would be a lot more costly. To some people, that stuff doesn’t matter; to some it does. Doesn’t make either one of them right or wrong or selfish. It’s just a matter of perspective and personal preference.

[–]RedPillMissionary 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Society thinks its selfish” who is this society? The conservatives in the midwest? Hollywood, tv, the music industry and the universities seem to promote the Sex and the City lifestyle for women.

[–]QueenRowana 8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I understand this completely. I am sortof similar thinking i guess.

I am 90% sure i want only one child. I do want to be a mother but i was very happy as an only child. My parents are middle class and I understand fully that I was fortunate. Had I had multiple siblings my childhood could have been significantly less fun financially speaking. After that one child I intend to get myself sterilized or get my tubes tied or have my husband get the snip or whatever it takes to ensure we don't get any surprises. Barring any crazy circumstances I expect to be and remain middle class or maybe a fraction under that. I think i could succesfully raise one kid on an average combined salary in that bracket, but not two or more without it becoming stressfull.

Only reason i would ever deviate from this is if i marry an absurdly wealthy man or somehow become absurdly wealthy myself and if we could be sure that we could give multiple children the childhood they deserve financially speaking.

I see no logic in those families with five children living below the poverty line who could be financially secure if they had had only one child. Like, just dont have children. In my country birth control is pretty much free and even in countries where it isn't it is a lot cheaper to get BC or get the snip once than to have to raise a child for 18 years or more.

[–]unsweetenedlemon 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have to reply to this just because I’ve never seen a comment so opposite of my views!! As an only child, I was miserable and alone all the time. My small family struggled financially regardless. In my opinion, children are a blessing, and I have always wanted a huge, fun family. Before birth control, children were an inevitability. Only recently has it been seen as “irresponsible” to have more than one or two children. I just think that is so odd. People have always preserved financially with many children or other challenges. My fiancé and I have long said that if we wait until everything is just so (perfect house, savings, etc.) until we have a child, we will be waiting the rest of our lives.

[–]valleycupcake 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And if you do right by your kids you will be much more likely to be cared for in your old age. Of course it’s your responsibility to save up and plan for the future, but you’ll have someone to visit you, keep you company, advocate for you, help you find the best care, set up your gadgets, and manage your affairs when you’re unable.

[–]texantechsan 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is my philosophy to a T.

[–]PreciousMuffn 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me it’s depended on my partner and ensuring he would make a good partner and father rather than dropping everything on me. I also enjoy my freedoms and don’t want having a child to alter our current lifestyle. Having a kid is also generic Russian Roulette. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not being sure or just not wanting to have children.

I’ve never had a biological urge to reproduce anyway, much to my mother’s dismay, and I’ve gotten tired of hearing about how selfish I am over the years. She’s stopped mostly because it doesn’t appear I can actually conceive anyway, but even if I could I don’t know if I’d want to for much longer. I’m about to be 36 and have no desire to chase toddlers in my 40’s. I have a beautiful stepdaughter who’s about to be 11 and I adore her. I love having her in my life and would consider fostering in the future too. Not everyone is meant to reproduce and that’s ok!

[–]valleycupcake 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That just seems too individualistic to me. Children are a blessing, even though they are very hard work. And children and financial struggle both develop character much better than the DINK lifestyle. As long as food, clothing, shelter, sleep, and education can be provided, along with love, then it’s not irresponsible to have children IMO.

[–]Almcoding 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

With age people tend to value family more than anything else because they saw so many materialistic things and friendships go and come but the family is the most likely to stay and help if you are in need. Yes it's selfish but beeing selfish without harming others is a good thing.

[–]AgentJ691 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me, I don’t want biological children. Absolutely no desire to pass my genetics. But adoption? Absolutely! I think you gave a reasonable answer ☺️

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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