~ archived since 2018 ~

Don't fall for "natural".

September 10, 2019
208 upvotes

So someone asked how, if femininity was hard to achieve for some women, could it really be "natural".

Nothing we do in our lives is "natural". Natural is hunting and gathering. Natural is sleeping under a tree. Natural is being constantly pregnant between the ages of 11 and 35. Natural is dying in your thirties of rotten teeth. In short, natural, the way modern people use the word, is what happens if you don't do something to oppose entropy.

So do not mistake natural for good, healthy, or desirable.

You are not trying to live as you would in the natural state of humanity... you are trying to do far, far better than that. Doing far, far, better than that is why humans invented civilization and technology in the first place. We are trying to improve our lives over the state of "natural".

When you shave your legs, you are not just imitating a young, healthy, high-estrogen girl's pale, fine, and less-visible leg hair... you are exaggerating it. When I lift heavy barbells, I am not simply imitating the effects of high natural testosterone, I am greatly exceeding them. A house built of timber and drywall isn't a substitute for a shade tree on the African savannah, or a cave... it is a vast improvement upon it. Willow bark is natural. Ibuprofen is not. Guess which one works better?

The history of human civilization is nothing but the story of how humans tried to improve upon nature... and usually succeeded. This required effort. This required humans to leave their comfort zone, and do things they they had not tried before. This required the willingness to plan, try, fail, plan again, and try again.

If you don't want to cultivate those things, then the notion that everything worth doing should be "natural" will seem very tempting. But this is just wishful thinking. If improvement were easy, it would not be considered improvement, because everyone would already have done it.

You're going to have to work.

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Post Information
Title Don't fall for "natural".
Author Whisper
Upvotes 208
Comments 47
Date September 10, 2019 6:31 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/dont-fall-for-natural.252758
https://theredarchive.com/post/252758
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/d2bzm5/dont_fall_for_natural/
Red Pill terms in post
Comments

[–]Lemminger100 points101 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Life is not about finding yourself. You were born with yourself - life is about building yourself.

.

People don't like perfect people or absolute confidence. They like well managed insecurities.

Downvote me if I'm wrong, I just like those two saying myself.

[–]TuhTodayJr6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Okay I’m a guy but this really spoke to me

[–]Lemminger5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm a guy too. Just following out of pure interest and felt like this was a good contribution. It applies to everybody who resonates.

[–]TuhTodayJr2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Right I just came across this sub and it’s so freaking intriguing.. it’s cool to see the women side of things :)

[–]Cocksmasher69 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

"It's cool to see women saying things men want them to say and worshipping males because they have no self esteem." There are plenty of subs where you can see women's side of things, but those subs don't cater to your feefees. Most of these "women" are men anyway

[–]TuhTodayJr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You alright, mate? Who hurt you?

[–]mintyfreshbtw20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know if I see femininity as unnatural. To be honest, learning that being feminine and wanting to be a nurturer and supporter rather an ambitious career woman has felt much more freeing and ‘natural’ than whatever those around me used to tell me to do. I understand that for some women, they don’t want to take on that role and don’t feel the same urges and that’s completely fine but for me, it does feel more natural than the alternative of climbing the corporate ladder or being someone’s boss.

However, the difficulty with women who don’t want to be feminine is that they have to tell themselves that they are not ‘naturally feminine’ like other women. Femininity is obviously linked to being a woman - it is difficult to continue observing and learning about red pill philosophy that does not have a place for them as women. One of my friends is like this and when she realised she didn’t want that nurturer role red pill says women should innately want, she could not continue following that idea insinuating that she was less of a woman for being aromantic and asexual, and not wanting children.

[–]LadySylwia81 points82 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

When you shave your legs, you are not just imitating a young, healthy, high-estrogen girl's pale, fine, and less-visible leg hair

Thick, visible leg hair is a secondary sex characteristic, an indicator that a woman has gone through puberty and is probably fertile. So your argument makes little sense from an evolutionary point of view.

By the way, it's also been scientifically demonstrated that armpit hair and pubic hair carries scent ID, and that a human's individual body odor plays a role in sexual selection, and therefore any resultant sexual pleasure and health of eventual offspring. Yet we are pressured to remove these and you probably call that "red pill" as well - instead of suggesting that men should take a red pill about what mature female sexuality naturally looks, tastes and smells like.

Sex is natural. Our sexual responses were programmed naturally. That's the whole point of the red pill, in contrast to the blue pill which tries to downplay or outright deny the importance of biology in the context of human sexuality.

A given culture's popular modifications to sexual presentation and the sex act itself should not be mistaken for human universals. I would appreciate if we could separate the concept of being "redpilled" from what it means to successfully participate in Western culture today, because the two are not the same.

[–]is_done7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think men are not attracted to body hair because it seems "unclean", and women are supposed to be clean much more than men. I think the preference for a lack of body hair is largely cultural.

[–]TheTyke9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also men tend to have more body hair than women generally so I can see it being correlated to masculinity.

[–]hudry7715 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Argh yes this!!!

[–]ellenmuntz 1 points [recovered]  (10 children) | Copy Link

In addition, men are much more attracted to women with body hair. Since I stopped shaving the number of marriage proposals I've gotten have increased a thousandfold.

[–]ZegiknieEndorsed Contributor15 points16 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol 0x1000?

[–]peacocktoast4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Rude but I didn't NOT think that.

[–]ZegiknieEndorsed Contributor2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the beauty of red pill, we get to be rude here and it's considered doing everyone a favor with refreshing truths 😁

[–][deleted] 1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]growingstronk2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You were taking me for a ride on the beginning there, but very strong finish

This is probably the same person who lets her armpits turn into the amazon jungle because “muh pheromones”

[–]travelingkiwi2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think men are attracted to confidence.

Maybe you are more confident with body hair, good for you.

Personally, I am waaaaay more confident removing mine and I do it for my own confidence more so than what a man wants done with my body hair.

[–]SvarogsSon1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is like the copypasta telling guys to smear ballsweat on their face to attract women

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the things I have told every doula client I have ever had is that natural doesn't mean easy. Even if we have natural tendencies, that doesn't mean following them is easy. Breastfeeding is natural, but it still takes time to learn how to do it. It is still challenging and frustrating at times. Medication free child birth is also natural. It hurts like hell for the vast majority of women who choose it. Even with medications to ease pain, pregnancy and child birth are uncomfortable and require some effort invested in learning about them for most women...yet they are totally natural processes. I agree with the points you made about how we basically strive to overcome nature, but I just want to add that even when nature is positive (i.e. breastfeeding has some benefits over man made alternatives), that doesn't mean following the natural course will be easy.

[–]stevierose78912 points13 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I am the student in the back of the class of RP theory and I am a little confused. I have read so much here about AWALT and it is a woman’s nature to be: hypergamous, the most responsible teenager in the house, incapable of unconditional love for her man, and irrational (hamstering away her misbehavior) These are considered truths. Are you saying that these traits are a biological where as femininity is not?

[–]Helmet_Icicle13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some of the regular contributors get too wrapped up in flavorful dogma and leave good, practical sense behind.

What OP thinks other people think is "natural" is just social construction. As mentioned by users elsewhere in this thread, body hair is a secondary sexual characteristic and has purposes in sexual selection. Primordial humans didn't have max lifespans of thirty years and certainly didn't have teeth problems without processed sugars.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

hypergamous,

Yep.

the most responsible teenager in the house

Uh-huh

incapable of unconditional love for her man

Unconditional love doesn't exist.

and irrational (hamstering away her misbehavior)

Often.

These are considered truths. Are you saying that these traits are a biological where as femininity is not?

Femininity is by all means biological. But femininity is a positive trait that it is beneficial to emphasize and enhance, therefore we advise women to go beyond the degree of femininity that comes easily and naturally.

By the same token, I am naturally strong compared to women, because I am male, and have spent all my life internally bathed in testosterone. But do I stop there? I would certainly be strong, still, if I did.

However, I do not. I pursue strength to the point that it is unnatural. To the point that it hurts. To the point that an olympic bar bends as I drag the weight from the floor... and my vision is clouding over with grey mist. Is that natural? Of course not. It's not natural for a human male to lift as much weight as your average chimpanzee. It's a struggle. And yes, it hurts. A lot.

But I do it because it makes all moments when I not lifting... better. I am taking a positive trait associated with masculinity and dialing it up as far as I am able. A woman can pursue femininity in the same way.

[–]Cocksmasher69 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Moids are so embarrassing. You are embarrassing. I'm so glad you're going to die alone, unfulfilled and miserable in your shitty diaper no woman wants to change anymore. I feel bad for straight women.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, the old shibboleth of the weak and lazy...

"Ah-hah! You're doing something to improve yourself! You must be insecure. I, on the other hand, am so secure in my current condition that I don't need to validate myself by being in shape, having a job, taking care of my appearance, learning new skills, accomplishing anything noteworthy, attracting desirable sexual partners, having close and loving relationships, or anything else that requires effort!

"I am free! Free to sit on the couch watching daytime television, eating salty snacks, and making snarky reddit comments on my phone. Don't you envy me?"

Well, frankly, no.

If the modern notion of security is a state of lotophagic contentment where the drive to self-improvement is not only considered worthless, but actually a character flaw, then I will treasure the insecurity that drives me to better things.

And I recommend you try it. Stop looking at stuff that makes you upset. Exchange the bitter validation of self-righteous outrage and go outside. Get some sunlight on your face. Run into another human being and have a conversation that doesn't involve how unjust and horrible the world is, how evil men are, or how badly you are oppressed. You just might have a good day for once.

[–]scaredadvice16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Love this. Thank youuuuu!

[–]ZegiknieEndorsed Contributor6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If something doesn't come naturally, that means it takes effort. And if something takes effort, you had best make sure that effort is actually worthwhile.

You forgot to mention that. Striving blindly is stupid.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But of course. If I mentioned everything, I'd be hogging the spotlight, and leaving nothing for you to say. What do you think I am, some kind of attention whore?

[–]ZegiknieEndorsed Contributor2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

XD

I think you're a Sagittarius.

[–]rthayerf5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're collapsing two realities on top of each other and confusing terms. In one sense, yes, nature is the set of all things which are subject to the laws of nature, of which humanity has partially superseded. On the other hand, it means the essential properties and causes of individual things. Nature is the property or set of properties that make an entity of substance what it fundamentally is.

When people talk about doing what is "natural" for women, they're likely talking about the latter. Tend towards the direction that is naturally human, or naturally female. While there is no hard and fast list, I'd say that most people would agree that that means submissive, nurturing, thoughtful, loyal, patient and kind.

[–]NoctaeBride6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the reason why people fall for this is because the very essence of reaching an ideal representation of your character is to make it look like it's natural. Which is much, much, much harder to achieve than the people who do that successfully will let you believe!

[–]nurglingshaman8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Being pregnant as young as 11 is not 'natural' dying at 35 is not 'natural', it happens, but it isn't the norm in past societies. I feel like anybody wanting to make a comment on the nature of natural out to know what is or isn't such.

[–]Hannelore0101 Star2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

(I agree with your larger point, but I think this comment was in regard to the actual years of fertility/menstruation, not lifespan or marriage. Also, girls used to, even as recent as two generations ago, start their period 14-16, at least in the west.)

[–]life-space2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice! People really don't consider the naturalistic fallacy enough.

[–]bchlladyfrog5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you! I was waiting for your input and now it hit me like an incoming train. Better roll them sleeves up, I guess.

[–]MoDuReddit6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Humans are part of Nature. Everything humans do is Natural, from picking your nose to launching rockets to Mars.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

When everything is natural, the word has no meaning. Might want to rethink that one.

[–]MoDuReddit2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Everything humans do

Not everything. But yes, the point is the definition has no meaning regarding health, life or defined behaviours, so anyone who uses it to convince you to do/not do something because "something something natural!", they you know you're being fed snake oil.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh, I agree with that one. Both of my parents prefer "Natural" or organic to anything else, to which I always reply, "Arsenic is 100% natural. Shall I go get you some?"

They never respond, because they can't. It's all &$#*$&#!!!1.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Poison ivy is natural

[–]SolarTortality1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Everything we do is natural because we humans are a product of nature.

[–]dingusfunk1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminists will rant about how armpit hair is 'natural' while simultaneously suggesting estrogen pills

[–]shitposterkatakuri3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post

[–]DeannaDoesDallas0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s work that I love!

Nothing feels better than when a man gives me a desirous look!

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was actually inspiring :) Thank you!

[–]peacocktoast0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem this logic is that good health and fertility are natural, and health and fertility are often perceived as beautiful by the opposite sex. Now, perfect health may not come "naturally" to everyone, which is why we wear makeup, style our hair and workout.

[–]IdealestOfIdeals-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow, I guess you’re right. We should live in a society worse for us with temporary benefits

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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