TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

Doormat vs Deference

October 15, 2019
169 upvotes

Hello class and welcome to RPW 101: Basic RPW. Where I will ramble about the foundations of this sub, what we are and are not and how we can use these tactics to achieve our goals. Class meets whenever I feel inclined to write and you can find the syllabus in the back of the book – by which I mean my head, good luck getting it out.


 

By any other name...

Submission is one of the foundational ideas of RPW and it is a very difficult concept to understand for new members. People come into RPW all the time thinking that we are doormats who will bend over backwards and let a man do anything.

 

The background that you bring to RPW will influence your view of submission. A Christian will have learned that she submits to her husband out of reverence to her faith. A BDSM sub will anticipate a firm spanking if she steps out of line. The majority, will stand in the middle and look at each end of this spectrum and think: “where the heck do I fit in?”

 

Hypergamy leads us to seek out the best man we can find. When we say “women date across and up” this means we are attracted to men who are better than us in some way. He might be stronger, he might be smarter, have a better job or socially higher status. We are attracted to the confidence in these men. They make us feel safe, protected and cherished.

 

This is fitting because men want to feel competent in their lives and in their relationships. Men often ask themselves if they measure up. Rather than being protected and loved, men wish to feel respected and admired. Submission at heart, is the way we behave to show men the respect and admiration that they crave.

 

But the word submission is a sticking point for many. If your modern Western brain struggles with the word submission, consider instead deference. We defer to others on a regular basis: to bosses at work, to teachers in school, to those with more knowledge and experiences than we have or those who take on responsibilities we do not want.

 

Whatever word you use to describe the practice, it does not mean you need to be less than what you are. You defer to a professor because they have more knowledge than you, not because you are stupid. You defer to the manager because they have more authority and responsibility than you, not because you are incapable. You defer to your partner because you love him, not because you can't function on your own. You need not be weak so another can be strong.

 

A doormat is a woman who will make herself weak to assuage the ego of a weak man. Submission is a tactic that anyone can use, and it can be used this way. Any man will appreciate being shown respect (remember: it is how they love). The person you are harming is yourself.

 

Instead, find the best man you can. A man whose vision for the future aligns with your own. A man you respect. If you don’t want to follow his lead then he’s not the right man. If you think his plans are terrible then he’s not the right man. If your life goals are at odds then he’s not the right man. If he asks you to set yourself on fire because he's chilly, then he's not the right man.

 

Choices should be made that are in the best interest of the family and the relationship. Do not quit your job that you love because he wants to be the sole provider. Quit your job because you both believe it is the best way to raise children. Do not STFU when your husband is about to make a wrong turn because you fear embarrassing him (seriously Laura Doyle, wtf). STFU because mowing the lawn is his responsibility and you trust him to manage his own to-do list.

 

I’m a firm believer that most women are happier with a man than without a man. I do not believe that women are better off with any man. Do not blindly follow a weak man. The risk to your own self worth and the relationship are great. (I know a woman who got herself a stress fracture tolerating a weak husband). Do not make yourself into a foot stool so he can kick back and relax --- unless you are into that sort of thing.

 

Submission - trusting his judgement, deferring to his knowledge, following his vision - is what you do to demonstrate that you respect a respectable man. If you show him love in the way he desires it, he will cherish you all the more.

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Post Information
Title Doormat vs Deference
Author girlwithabike
Upvotes 169
Comments 58
Date October 15, 2019 4:59 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/doormat-vs-deference.290777
https://theredarchive.com/post/290777
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/diasdc/doormat_vs_deference/
Red Pill terms in post
Comments

[–]redandpearls2 Stars31 points32 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This is just what I needed today. I've been struggling a lot lately with the concept of submission, because the word really weirds me out- I've spent a long time trying to stop being a doormat to everyone (because I'm a very naturally submissive type and I very easily slide into doormat territory) and the word submission makes me feel like that's what I'm doing. But the idea of deference helps me find strength and fullness in my nature and suits my personality in a much healthier way.

I just really needed this, thank you.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You definitely don’t have to be a doormat. I’m very loud and assertive, but my husband leads our relationship. He’s the driver, I’m the backseat driver and every once in awhile I know a shortcut he doesn’t :P women are the helpers of men, and nobody was ever helped by a doormat. Men need us to speak up, so they can bounce ideas off us and let us point out potential blind spots. Even the best leaders need some council :)

[–]Lizziloo874 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So it’s kinda like we are the hand of the king then?

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad it helped. I've always found 'submission' to be an imprecise word when it's used on RPW. As I said, everyone comes to it with a different idea of what it means. I know when I first started reading here, I didn't find anything that really outlined what was meant by it. I know a lot of my advice is predicated on the idea that women have a backbone and boundaries - but I realize that is simply because that's the background I bring with me. Sometimes that stuff needs to be stated, before we are in a race to see who can be the most submissivest good girl on the whole sub :-P

[–]LethalShade1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a dude, this was a cool post to read and gives context to my desires as a man. I enjoy a woman who's respectful but is assertive in her own life. A woman who's got a little feist but is not afraid to show appreciation and affection. Or like the OP put it, a girl who's submissive to a man she feels has earned it, not a doormat.

[–]make_me_a_good_girl0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also what I needed to read today.

I've definitely struggled a lot with my two selves: the strong, independent woman that has her shit together and knows what she wants in life (and in the bedroom) vs the caregiver side of me that wants to be praised for making a fabulous meal (or for being a good sub in the bedroom). I oscillate between the two selves never feeling like I can be one side fully. This concept of deference, though, sits really well with me.

Thanks! Glad I'm not the only one having their eyes opened. :)

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is absolutely perfect. So well-written and describes my feelings about submission/deference perfectly. This is why I like this sub. I agree with this whole-heartedly. Men want to be respected and women want to be cherished. Finding a man you respect makes deference easy. You want to submit to him, because you trust him and know he’s not going to steer you wrong.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you!

I've seen it said that with the right man a woman will naturally submit. I think that this is true for many woman but not all. The conditioning that tells us to 'not let a man control us' goes pretty deep sometimes. But I do think that the women who push back the most are ones who haven't found a man they could even consider trusting.

[–]valleycupcake6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

My mother was a doormat for my father while I was growing up, and I swore I’d never be like that, swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction and losing my first marriage. I’m still trying to find that balance in my second marriage and don’t intend to have a third. I liked the thought that a doormat can’t be a helper to anyone.

I wish there was more guidance in this sub and in general for finding happiness when the man you married is maybe not the best leader or the most compatible but you still share love and admiration and want to keep your commitment now that it’s done.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wish there was more guidance in this sub and in general for finding happiness when the man you married is maybe not the best leader or the most compatible...

Some of this is because the demographic skews younger and unmarried I think. There is also going to be a natural hesitancy on the part of women to admit their lives aren't perfect. This makes it harder to truly swap strategies.

I think that if you have a subpar leader (and you've given him opportunities to lead to no avail) then you can still look for things to respect and admire and make a point to praise him and trust where it is warranted. I know I've given my friend situational RPW advice that doesn't specifically instruct her to let her husband decide anything because ... well he's just never going to get there (she doesn't listen and that's another can of worms).

As for compatibility, I don't know what ways you are incompatible. I tend to think that having all the same hobbies is not what makes a solid marriage. I learned to do stuff he's interested in that I would never do on my own but we still have solidly different ideas about other things and our own ways of spending down time.

[–]ShootingDanks1 Star4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have you read Fascinating Womanhood? I like the fact that the author asserts that you can influence your husband to become a better leader, by enhancing your own femininity. It's a very optimistic outlook, which might renew your dedication to improving your marriage. It's a good book for getting into the correct frame of mind.

[–]BelleLeo5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is pure gold, thank you.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

:-)

[–]AngelFire_3_141565 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for posting!

After reading to this, I've realized that I have not become Red Pill, but rather I've been Red Pill almost all along in the relationship I have with my husband.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts!

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

AWALT ;-)

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A theme that keeps occurring is newbies thinking that submission = doormat. It does not. What makes submission work is having boundaries. Only without boundaries is submission subservience.

[–]lush_vibes1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This literally made my day! There’s so many negative connotations of “red pill” but it’s really nothing like it’s painted out to be. Thank you 😍

[–]mietzbert0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nah go to the original red pill forum. This isn't as toxic bc it is basically feminism.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Can you elaborate further on this?

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not 'basically feminism'. It's more palatable to women than the men's subs because it's written for women in women's best interest. That does not make it feminism. Feminism is a political movement with political goals.

Some feminists will tell you that it's about men and women being equal. The red pill teaches that we are different, with different needs and goals. This post does not claim women are the same as men and it does not discuss equality one way or the other. However, some men think that anything that tells women to act for their own benefit, rather than men's, is feminism. This is untrue.

You can have a red pill male-led relationship without compromising yourself. The key is to finding a strong man who shares your values. That doesn't fit with the male imperative because that means they have to develop into strong men, rather than getting a girl just for existing.

[–]Hornyonion-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I truly agree with what you have written. But the first step to implement this wonderful theory is to acknowledge that there are blind spots for you, that your man might know something you don't and that sometimes, after having a discussion, you might not be in the correct. In one word, it means to self reflect and look yourself in the mirror. Would you be able to do that in an honest and mature way?

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm curious what gave you the impression that there are issues between my husband and I?

[–]zsadiist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

classic drive-by asshole commentary from a dude who has posted to askTRP one time and then comes over here to talk down to a woman who’s written the frigging RPW handbook......... LOL

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm curious too. You two are different but complementary from all I've seen.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like masculine and feminine or something :-P

I wish this person would come back and let me know what was the trigger for his comment. My gut reaction was that this is simply an excuse for him to lecture but if there is something in the piece that suggests we ignore our men's thoughts, well I'd really like to know. Obviously that wasn't the intent.

Besides, I know I can't always be correct because my husband has never been wrong a day in his life.

[–]valleycupcake0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I definitely need those reminders. “That’s what I thought I heard, but you might be right.”

[–]est-la-lune0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sad that these kind of posts need to be made (re: https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/deowuz/checklist_or_toolbox/) but I'm happy these posts were made and extra happy that you're making them. Just sendin' some love.

[–]skinny_gyal0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don’t agree with some of that. I think all humans want love and respect. Granted I don’t know many guys buy I assume they want to be loved as well as respected.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

If you click through the links I provided one is a chapter from For Women Only. Take away:

To Men, respect means more than love. In fact, when given the choice, men would rather feel unloved than inadequate and disrespected.

So you may disagree but respect is the way most men wish to be shown love. To think it otherwise is placing female desires onto men and assuming they work the way that we do.

[–]skinny_gyal0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I can understand that. But I want respect too. I place it above love because lots of people have bastardized what they feel love is and how they love. I actually place respect higher but can appreciate love. So I’d think everyone to an extent would want both love and respect and deserve both.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Sure and the point of this post is that you should be a good woman and find a good man. You shouldn't make yourself into a doormat showing respect to someone who doesn't deserve it.

You are making a life mistake in your last two sentences. You assume that because you feel a certain way, everyone feels that way. If everyone around you says "this works for me" then take them at their word that 'this works for them'. No one is forcing you to feel the same but then you may be an outlier.

Healthy relationships need love and respect. Men won't be happy if you love him but don't respect him. Women won't be happy if you respect her but don't love her.

I'm not sure how outsole have bastardized their feelings. Could you elaborate?

[–]skinny_gyal0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Where I come from this submission thing is preached to some very toxic levels. To be okay with abuse cheating and all levels of disrespect because of love. Because to be a wife is to persevere. Not for normal stuff like sickness or issues with children. I get many abuse it. I don’t want to assume what’s best for everyone but I’m tired of always hearing submission and it feels too much. They could be interviewing a very powerful and influential woman and what do they ask her? Do you still submit to your husband? If that’s what makes her happy fine but it feels a little too much do you get. Besides isn’t a respect another part of love ( like the way Christians explain it)

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a give and take to everything. RPW would never preach to stick around through abuse or continued cheating.

But ultimately the red pill is a product of the West. Gender relations will never be perfect but for the most part, men are respectful and respectable no matter what our feminists say. Submission is not something I'd recommend just because he's a man. It's something you do because you married a great, loyal man and it will make your interactions smoother and happier. If those men don't exist where you are then you are outside my experience.

I can't speak to Christian ideas because I'm not particularly religious and it's been a long long time since my religious education classes.

[–]skinny_gyal0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay I can get that.

[–]organicsunshine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Submission is when he says "quiet". You stop talking.

[–]sitienti-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

This is not a Red Pill Material this is utterly feminism echo chamber, if you are the teacher of this class no wonder women are clueless.

All I read was basically; ""gurls do not get involved with any anxious, fearful, confused, young, uneducated, lower than you, short, unintelligent, sex addict...etc guy.

Better stay alone girls!""

I've no problem with your preferences, but you are not throwing absolutely any insight or RedPill awareness you are just regurgitating what a 13-99 years old girl want over and over again.

This is feminism reinforce and that's why this special kind of people can't be trusted with facts because they will distorting it with mindless fights for power and more shit testing so we "get it" how to be a man.

I'm disappointed the real Red Pill looked a little butthurt so I came here and this is worst.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It is not red pill for men, no.

And you are correct, women should not get involved with men that they don't look up to. Each woman will have her personal preferences and 'look up to' will depend on who she is. You list a whole lot of very undesirable qualities that you seem to think women should overlook. The only one I'd tell women that they are perhaps being silly about is height. But seriously sex addict? WTF dude?

If a woman wants to mitigate the risk of hypergamy and the desire to branch swing then she needs a man who she respects and thinks is high status in some way. She needs a man who she will think twice about being able to replace. A man who is:

anxious, fearful, confused, young, uneducated, lower than you, short, unintelligent, sex addict...etc guy.

is easy to replace with someone better.

Telling women things that benefits them isn't feminism. Expecting women to suddenly behave like men isn't red pilled.

[–]sitienti-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

WTF I don't care if you replace a man or not why you feel the urge to tell me that? That's not red pulling

What I can sense is "I (we guuurls) want better men and I (we) don't want to feel bad about even if these "lower quality men" are wipe out!"

That's a red pill but it was stated even before Reddit existed "women will rather share an alpha than having multiple betas as disposition".

Also there isn't a "red pill for women" and "red pill for men"

Red pill is just an allegory from the movie the matrix to tell people to "wake up" to the reality and stop living Disney fantasies to face the true.

But you are too coward to face the true don't worry you are excused because you are a woman's (i.e. burden of performance).

I confess I'm not an alpha but I'm straight and if there's a God I thank him I was born a man I just don't understand why women crave dominance and are unable to think without emotions.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't get the sense you know what is and is not red pill or women. You really belong on TRP not here.

This is a pms worthy emotional rant you are giving me right now.

[–]sitienti-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm scrolling upon the best post from this subs and many of them have a good point, I just think women should see men with compassion and love in general, more like the little brothers since many of them crave to save and protect"the princess" but these princesses are rooted and degenerated and these young men are also degenerated, femenized (they lack masculinity) and porn addicts.

Feminism is just a bad prescription for a rotten liberal modern society with lack of real feminity and masculinity, feminism = chauvinism is just a convulsion of anger and disappoinment.

Reading the top post gave me hope, some women are truly beautiful, trp intoxicated my view a little I want women in my life not as sexual partners they don't own me sex (I'm attracted to them anyway) but I sincerely want them as friends I already have 3 kids with 2 different women anyway.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If women view men as little brothers no one will be having sex again because women are not attracted to their little brothers.

You aren't supposed to save and protect the princess. Stop putting women on a pedestal like that. No one here is a princess. We are all subjected to our base programming. Now who is talking about Disney fairytales.

[–]LethalShade2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bro, you need a therapist, not Reddit. This is good content here but it's not meant to baby you. You're not even the intended demographic.

Men need to be strong to be attractive, of course, that doesn't mean that you don't need support but this is a subreddit meant for women looking for strong men in their lives, not a men's support group.

[–]gimpgirl555-5 points-4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to disagree with some of your points,

  1. You need a man, a man doesn't need you.

You need a man to have children, a family, and not live in poverty. A man can just buy a cool car and travel the world. That's a lot more fun than coming home a woman and kids.

  1. Men control relationships,

The relationship ends when the man decides that it ends. Don't want to be a doormat? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

"B-but I can end relationships too!" - and go where? And do what? There's no awesome guy out there that's waiting for a woman just like you.

  1. You are a liability,

There are very few upsides, and lots of downsides to a woman. You demand attention and cost money while providing basic housekeeping and sex. Things that are easily replaceable.

  1. He makes the rules,

Because you need him more than he needs you, he decides if you get to be with him or not, and you bring very few tangible benefits to his life while he provides lots of benefits to you -> he's the boss.

  1. Men will humor you,

Since it's not socially acceptable to acknowledge these facts, men will say lots of stuff to make you feel better about yourself. This may lead to you getting a big head and forgetting your place.

  1. You are not his right hand,

A man's oldest son is his right hand, you're the creature that lives in the basement and is let out to do the cleaning.

  1. "But I want to feel important! I matter! Respect women!"

Then leave your spot for the next girl in line to be with your man.

  1. "You suck/you're crazy/you're a doormat"

At least I've got my spot in the basement secured. A comfy cage, a blanket, sometimes I even get a pillow! What more can a girl ask for?

  1. You should probably keep your mouth shut and do as you're told,

I have found that simply asking "what do you want me to do now, Sir?" and then doing that thing, is a great way to get along with a man.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your kink guides your ideas here. What works for you and your relationship does not work for everyone. I'm not going to debate you because we will simply go around in circles as we have done before.

Your way of being would simply not work for me or my relationship.

[–]Guywithgirlwithabike3 Stars5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You seem to be disagreeing with her on the same point over and over again.

Maybe you need to have your man teach you how to format a response.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most of her "disagreement" fits within everything I've written. At least the ones that address the content of my post. She wants to be the subbiest submissive so she's putting words into my mouth to argue against. I guess her man didn't teach her about logical fallacies either.

[–]callingfriend04 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm genuinely curious, are you a blue pill troll here to try to make us look bad? It's one thing to like your dom-sub dynamic or how it works for you, but it's another to eshew reality and claim that's what a healthy woman would do in desperation to keep a man who doesn't value or respect her. I'd leave it be if you were just describing what works for you, but suggesting that no woman should expect her husband respect her, think she's important, think she isn't his right hand mate, or have a say is just too far.

You need a man to have children, a family, and not live in poverty. A man can just buy a cool car and travel the world. That's a lot more fun than coming home a woman and kids.

He needs me to have children, and I can buy cool cars or travel, too. What makes you think being a woman means I live in poverty lol?

The relationship ends when the man decides that it ends. Don't want to be a doormat? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

It also ends when I want it to end. He thinks I should be a doormat? I look forward to slamming the door on his ass because I respect myself and there are men waiting for women just like me - I've done it before and I'm happily married to a better man as a result.

There are very few upsides, and lots of downsides to a woman. You demand attention and cost money while providing basic housekeeping and sex. Things that are easily replaceable.

So does he. What world do you live in that he doesn't demand attention or money from me, and doesn't do housekeeping? I'm married to a man, not a child I need to pick up after.

Because you need him more than he needs you, he decides if you get to be with him or not, and you bring very few tangible benefits to his life while he provides lots of benefits to you -> he's the boss.

Why would I bring so little to a relationship that I need him more than he needs me? I bring many tangible benefits to his life, and he brings many to mine. Why would I be in a relationship where this isn't the case?

Since it's not socially acceptable to acknowledge these facts, men will say lots of stuff to make you feel better about yourself. This may lead to you getting a big head and forgetting your place.

Same goes for him.

A man's oldest son is his right hand, you're the creature that lives in the basement and is let out to do the cleaning.

No I'm actually not in an abusive relationship. Maybe you're in a kinky relationship, and that's great for you since it seems to make you happy, but it's not the answer to being a good wife for everyone

Then leave your spot for the next girl in line to be with your man.

No, I'm actually both valued and respected. I do matter, otherwise he wouldn't be married to me and I wouldn't be married to him. He'd (try to) use me as his side piece to use and pump and dump as he sees fit because I'm just a basement dweller who doesn't provide anything other than yeses and cleaning. I bring more to the table than cleaning

At least I've got my spot in the basement secured. A comfy cage, a blanket, sometimes I even get a pillow! What more can a girl ask for?

I've got love. I've got the respect and admiration of my husband. He looks up to me in situations just like I defer to him when he's the wiser one. 9 years and I've never been in the basement.

I have found that simply asking "what do you want me to do now, Sir?" and then doing that thing, is a great way to get along with a man.

I find "what should we do now, honey?" works great, because then we do things together and have fun together as adults instead of employer employee

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Don't let her get to you. Troll or no, it's clear she gets off on everyone's outrage.

Generally BDSM fits with RPW. I know of at least one woman here who calls her man 'Master' in a 24/7 situation. It's not obvious from her comments though because she knows how to give broad advice and her personality is more than just her sex life.

I went back and forth with gimpgirl the other day. She isn't here to learn and she is incapable of generalizing her experiences to a broader audience. What she will do is answer every comment you make and try to push your buttons with the level of degradation she can take. "Don't wrestle with pigs. You'll both get dirty but the pig likes it."

[–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No matter how much of a "lifestyle" some people think BDSM is, it's still completely irrelevant when you're interacting with random strangers in public spaces.

Also, because of the exaggerated leader/follower dynamic in BDSM, the person who follows (slave/sub/bottom) is even more a reflection of the quality of their leader (Master/Dom/Top), compared to the typical C/FM dynamic. As we all know: like attracts like!

Basically, the more low value a person is, the more desperately they'd virtue-signal.

Even if their subbier-than-thou "advice" would work for low value people, the more well-adjusted strategy would be to increase your real value, so you won't need low-value strategies in the first place.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is the assumption (in the mind of a S-T-T woman) that her man must be awesome for her to be so submissive? It's not abnormal FSM behavior for women to try to outdo each other - but it's usually in the form of 'my kids are soooo smart' or 'my husband is sooo important' and the like. I've never encountered a woman who brags about how little her man does...It makes him sound worthless which is really out of place in normal female communication (unless we're all bitching about men, which we are not). I can't quite wrap my head around it.

[–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In a bucket of crabs (the typical FSM or any consensus-centric community/group), there will always be some crabs that are unable to climb at all (because of whatever dysfunction).

For most crabs, there's always the chance of escape, even if they're busy sabotaging each other.

For dysfunctional crabs, escape is something that's unrealistic to even hope for. They might not even be capable of sabotaging others! So the options available to them are either glorify the bottom of the bucket and talk about how nothing is real beyond the confines of the bucket, or curl up and die.

Since people aren't crabs (no matter how many people may behave like crabs in a bucket), we have options that crabs don't, no matter how disadvantaged we may be. Being human is awesome, and the 21st century is a wonderful time to be alive as a woman (no matter how many women can't understand/ don't appreciate it).

But someone who has convinced herself that she's a doomed dysfunctional crab would also have convince herself that she only has crab-options. Many such people are attracted to anything that glorifies masochism (and many people seem to think that's what RPW is about, somehow).

[–]gimpgirl555-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm genuinely curious, are you a blue pill troll here to try to make us look bad? It's one thing to like your dom-sub dynamic or how it works for you, but it's another to eshew reality and claim that's what a healthy woman would do in desperation to keep a man who doesn't value or respect her. I'd leave it be if you were just describing what works for you, but suggesting that no woman should expect her husband respect her, think she's important, think she isn't his right hand mate, or have a say is just too far.

Nope. I'm the real deal.

Do you want to win at life or do you want to feel respected?

Respect, having a say and feeling important is a huge waste of time. There are no tangible benefits to these things for a woman. Sure you might feel good about yourself but then you should probably work on your self-esteem.

Keeping the man, getting kids, getting to spend time with your family, those are the things that matter. Those are real tangible benefits.

He needs me to have children, and I can buy cool cars or travel, too. What makes you think being a woman means I live in poverty lol?

If he wants kids, he can knock you up and then go away. And now you're stuck being a single mom. And the poverty rates for single moms are pretty high.

The reality is that if you want a nuclear family then you need to do what your man says.

It also ends when I want it to end. He thinks I should be a doormat? I look forward to slamming the door on his ass because I respect myself and there are men waiting for women just like me - I've done it before and I'm happily married to a better man as a result.

Be realistic: men who have options don't get with post wall women. If you're over 30 you're done. Yes you can point to some woman that did okay, but that's the exception. And you can say that your new man is better than your last one, but if he's so good, how come he didn't get a 20 year old model?

So does he. What world do you live in that he doesn't demand attention or money from me, and doesn't do housekeeping? I'm married to a man, not a child I need to pick up after.

If the man has a job then he doesn't need your money. That's one of the reasons why I keep my man from working.

Making him do housekeeping just gives him less reason to keep you around. Why would you do that?

Why would I bring so little to a relationship that I need him more than he needs me? I bring many tangible benefits to his life, and he brings many to mine. Why would I be in a relationship where this isn't the case?

Because when it comes down to it you don't have anything that he needs. In fact he might have more fun without you. He might have more disposable income, a cooler car, date women who are better than you.

No, I'm actually both valued and respected. I do matter, otherwise he wouldn't be married to me and I wouldn't be married to him. He'd (try to) use me as his side piece to use and pump and dump as he sees fit because I'm just a basement dweller who doesn't provide anything other than yeses and cleaning. I bring more to the table than cleaning

Here's what I bring to the table: I support him financially, I have a very fit body, I buy him everything he wants, I'm very sexual, and I do as I'm told.

Most of these things are tangible benefits.

I've got love. I've got the respect and admiration of my husband. He looks up to me in situations just like I defer to him when he's the wiser one. 9 years and I've never been in the basement.

Those are not real things. Respect and admiration is not going to keep him around when he gets an offer from a 25 year old. Not being able to pay his bills without you will. Or you having a way better body than said 25 year old.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's what I bring to the table: I support him financially, I have a very fit body, I buy him everything he wants, I'm very sexual, and I do as I'm told. Most of these things are tangible benefits.

Don't pet the unicorns. You'll lose an eye.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Wow. You've a very cynical interpretation of the power dynamic between men and women.

You are a liability. There are very few upsides, and lots of downsides to a woman. You demand attention and cost money while providing basic housekeeping and sex. Things that are easily replaceable.

No, BLUE PILL women do this. RPW provide respect and return care, a soft landing, and a well-maintained house and body in return for money and attention. Plus a mother for children if both are so inclined. That isn't easily replaceable.

By that standard, men are much more easily replaceable. A walking income and erection isn't hard to find, is it? There's a whole planet full of blue pill betas out there.

[–]gimpgirl555-2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Wow. You've a very cynical interpretation of the power dynamic between men and women.

I'm just practical and down to earth.

RPW provide respect and return care, a soft landing, and a well-maintained house and body in return for money and attention. Plus a mother for children if both are so inclined. That isn't easily replaceable.

You don't need any of those things. They're nice to have, but you can easily do without.

Now let's factor in small kids. For most people there won't be much of a soft landing, nice home decor, or a hot body. Just chaos and lots of work.

If you're a woman then you need the man, the kids, and the family because that's what life is about for women. Without that you have nothing

So one way or another, you're gonna have to pay the guy to stick around and play house.

It also means that he can blow up your life if you don't behave yourself. Here are lots of examples of women who didn't get the memo, https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

By that standard, men are much more easily replaceable. A walking income and erection isn't hard to find, is it? There's a whole planet full of blue pill betas out there.

You will have to settle very hard just to get that income. Your choice will be between being alone or being with a guy you don't like.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I can't figure out if you're obtuse or disingenuous.

"RPW provide respect and return care, a soft landing, and a well-maintained house and body in return for money and attention. Plus a mother for children if both are so inclined. That isn't easily replaceable."

You don't need any of those things. They're nice to have, but you can easily do without.

You're missing the point, princess. Those are what makes a RPW HARD to replace. A man doesn't need those things, but he sure as hell wants them and will pay through the nose for them. Learn to read.

It also means that he can blow up your life if you don't behave yourself. Here are lots of examples of women who didn't get the memo, https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

Yeah, I go there too to get a laugh. But that doesn't prove that men have all the power, just that 20-something ghetto BP women are often deluded about their worth. Or just google the term "Divorce Rape".

You will have to settle very hard just to get that income.

How hard you have to "settle" to get a blue pill beta provider wasn't up for discussion. The point was that a woman can easily replace what a man provides - security and money - much easier than a man can replace what a woman provides (homemaking and children). That doesn't mean she'll LIKE it, just that she can easily do it.

[–]LethalShade1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think this person has very deep feelings of shame and low self-esteem that she wants to project onto the whole of womankind. I hope that she somehow makes it out of her current pit of darkness and is open to seeking therapy.

No man likes a doormat and the ones that do aren't respectable. I would much have a quality partner.

[–]gimpgirl555-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're missing the point, princess. Those are what makes a RPW HARD to replace. A man doesn't need those things, but he sure as hell wants them and will pay through the nose for them. Learn to read.

I've been a housewife for most of my adult life. In fact I started out as a housewife at 18. And when I grew up pretty much all women in the community were housewives. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I've never seen a housewife (other than myself) with a well maintained body. And well maintained house? What does that even mean? It sounds to me like you've been watching a lot of old movies.

There are plenty of women out there that are tired of working and would be happy to play housewife. Search twitter for #tradwife

But more importantly I have never known at man that would pay for it. I have a friend who's also a housewife but she gets that because she's attractive.

If this is what you like that's fine. But most men out there are not looking to keep a woman at home, a lot of them can't afford it even if they wanted to.

Yeah, I go there too to get a laugh. But that doesn't prove that men have all the power, just that 20-something ghetto BP women are often deluded about their worth. Or just google the term "Divorce Rape".

Yes it does. Because if the guy leaves, a lot of women will be on there.

How hard you have to "settle" to get a blue pill beta provider wasn't up for discussion. The point was that a woman can easily replace what a man provides - security and money - much easier than a man can replace what a woman provides (homemaking and children). That doesn't mean she'll LIKE it, just that she can easily do it.

First of all I'm not convinced that's the case. I can't imagine that men are lining up to provide for a woman who has some other guy's kids. But I admit that I wouldn't know.

And second that's not a change that most women want to make. It's like saying "you could just live in a tent" while technically true, most people want to live indoors. Swapping the guy you know for a guy you dug up in a dumpster is something you'll do anything to avoid.

Third, most women are not providing an amazing homemaking experience and even if they did I don't think that most men would care. I think you have to be quite a bit older to appreciate it. I would know because I do some of those things: afternoon tea, three course dinners on Sundays, I dress up for dinner, and so on. I took me years to learn to do this. I don't see any woman out there putting in the necessary work.

So the awesome services that a woman provides are some basic cooking (on a good day, lots of women don't cook) and children that demand constant attention. With that in mind, I would say it's amazing that so many men choose to stick around.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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