Harvard article: Stay single if your spouse doesn't support your career.

loneliness-inc · 2017-10-29T14:45:35+00:00

Any thoughts on this article? It's written in a way that blames men for the marriage problems, but do we think there might have been lack of respect on the wife's side? Too demanding? Not enough appreciation? Wanting it all?

Yes. It does blame men unfairly. Women are adults, capable of decision making. If it made the most sense for her to cut back on work for the sake of the kids, that's a decision they make together and isn't solely his fault. It certainly isn't reason to divorce him. That's ridiculous.

The root of the problem here is the abolition of gender roles. When entering a marriage, both parties need to make some sacrifices. In this case, the women are cutting back their careers, but the men are also picking up the entire financial burden. The sacrifice works both ways. It's silly to demonize one side and exalt the virtues of the other. This only further breaks down the already broken gender relations.

I didn't click the link. I'm not giving more hits to a website that publishes such divisive nonsense.

nonnimoose · 2017-10-29T20:41:58+00:00

I'll have to read the article but there's something in this snippet that doesn't make sense to me. How can men be blaming the wives' frustrations on menopause if the women are leaving their jobs to fill a parenting vacuum? Did they start having children at 40?

The idea that anyone, man or woman, can "have it all" (high pressure career, marriage and family) without significant support is, in my opinion, false. I believe that women who think that since men have been able to "have it all," they should be able to as well aren't looking at it deeply enough. Men have been able to pull it off because they had wives (or some other familial support) devoted to helping them succeed. My husband was able to get ahead in his career in large part because we moved whenever and wherever he needed. He never had to try to schedule business meetings around school hours or take the day off because of a kid home sick with the flu. He could travel anywhere for any corporate emergency without having to make arrangements. I think this is a common experience for successful men with families.

In answer to your question: I think a married couple needs to decide whose career is the one most worth investing in BEFORE they have children. A woman who is driven to succeed in her career and who wants children would do well to work on being attracted to the kind of guy who would find fulfillment in being a SAHD (in the younger years).

FleetingWish · 2017-10-29T17:57:03+00:00

Stuff like this gets under my skin. Two adults, in a loving relationship, have decided what is best for their careers/ children/ relationship, and Harvard/ Feminism decides that not good enough because they notice it's trending in a direction that they don't particularly like. Then women take this to heart and start thinking, "Maybe there is something wrong with my relationship."

STFU Harvard, no one asked your opinion on what my relationship should look like. There are two people in my relationship, and Harvard is not one of them.

g_e_m_anscombe · 2017-10-30T07:44:29+00:00

I think the article is right: if you are a woman who wants a high powered career, don't get married. In the past two years of being married, it has been very clear that my professional life was much easier while unmarried. Although my finances are better as a married person, the emotional burden and burden of housework is substantially higher.

The high-powered men of yesteryear were supported primarily by wives who stayed home. It's just immensely challenging to have two adults stay together while being committed to two high-powered careers. Throw children in the mix and things only get harder. There are only so many hours in a week, and we can't do it all.

That being said, my husband and I both hope to have careers and have children. This will require both of us to make some sacrifices. He will probably take less lucrative options so that he can focus on family life more. I am doing grad school to enter academia, which at least offers time flexibility. I won't be trying to get a job at a top university, but will settle for a decent job in our desired area. When we have kids, we will probably outsource a decent amount of housework (laundry, cleaning) and will hopefully get familial support for childcare (from grandparents, aunts). In that scenario, we're outsourcing because in the end, somebody still has to get the stuff done. If you're both making enough money, you'll outsource. If you're not, one of you will probably work part-time or not at all. The danger is that women often find men who choose lower-paid careers less attractive; it takes a very strong alpha personality to maintain attraction while beta-ing it up as a stay-at-home dad.

One of the common problems I think RPW and feminists can agree on is the concept of "mental load." Mental load is the idea that there's a certain burden of keeping track of everything that has to get done at home. Theoretically, if a man knows how to OYS, the mental load on the wife is significantly reduced. If he sees dishes, he takes care of them so she doesn't have to worry. If she can't make dinner, he knows how to cook decently enough that the family won't starve. A RPW won't be overly critical of a husband who doesn't do things exactly her way, but she can appreciate a man who reduces her mental load and will reciprocate in kind. One reason I think feminists complain so much is that there are many men who are really bad at owning their shit; when they fail, women feel like they have to fill the gap. The problem is that their proposed strategies - asking nicely or just waiting for the next generation of boys - can't really fix the problem. In the end, being more respectful and appreciate of what a husband does can certainly improve a marriage. But in my experience, those things won't make a man necessarily better at owning shit. That's a motivation that has to come from within, and it's one increasingly lacking in our society.

franky19902 · 2017-10-29T18:37:29+00:00

In general, it backs up what RP says. Men don't want to do childcare, don't expect to do childcare, and don't alter their worklife to take on childcare. So if there are children involved, women have to take on the bulk of the childrearing load, and that's just the way it is whether the women thought they were career women or stay at home moms. As people are fond of saying: red pill isn't fair, it just is. Men can outsource childrearing to their spouse and have it all, women can't.

It is, essentially, why I won't be having children. I don't want to sacrifice a meaningful job that makes a difference to raise children badly despite best efforts. That's how I'd decrease the good I'd do the planet, not increase it. If I were a man, that wouldn't be a problem and I'd have both, but I'm not and that's just the way that life is.

For more liberal RPW: Do you think a husband should be more flexible with his career to help out at home and allow the woman to invest in her career as well?

I think that having children is something that people shouldn't get into without discussing that, frankly! And then it depends - if the man has agreed to take on half the burden of childrearing, and then after children changes his mind and says 'no', then he's a captain who doesn't know which way he's steering the ship until he turns the wheel, and that seems like a good way to end up on the rocks.

If the woman has just assumed that he'll muck in and help with childrearing and then is blindsided by reality and resents having to do two jobs, or resents having to give up the paid job for the childcare, then she's an idiot, because that's not the status quo, and there's a phrase about assume making an ass of u and me...!

Basically, communicate...and be a decent enough partner to hold up your end of any promises made.

TheLaughingRhino · 2017-10-31T15:47:53+00:00

I'm going to unpack this topic a little differently.

I see there are complicated issues for kids, time, roles and career. Mostly though, I think there is a severe misunderstanding by most men when it comes to most women and issues related to complaining.

This topic could be any topic, it could be about parenting roles, it could be about living situations, it could be about traffic patterns, and at the end of the day, no matter what happens in a woman's life. She is going to complain about something. Complaining is literally like a sport. Part of it is because our society and culture is set up so that there are no repercussions for women in general to complain, and heavy ones for men to do so. The other part is it is likely how most women process their emotions and functions as a coping strategy.

The biggest misunderstanding by most men is the idea that there is an "answer" If I just do this, this way, or if I did this differently, then finally, she'll be happy, she'll stop complaining.

Here's when women stop complaining - When they've given up all hope on you and your relationship and the next plan is some kind of exit strategy. But as long as she's "staying", she's going to complain about something. Fix one thing she's upset about, she'll focus on other thing to complain about. Fix them all, she'll complain that you've fixed them all, or that she has nothing to complain about.

As a man, it's your fault. As a Captain, it's your fault. If there's no food for the kids, then justifiably it's your fault. All your fault. No doubt. No argument here. But if she's bored, it's your fault. If she gets into a car accident, and you were at work at the time, it's your fault. If it rains and she doesn't have an umbrella, it's your fault. If she's not getting what she wants, when she wants it, exactly as she wants it, all the time, it's your fault.

Want evidence?

A) Travel the world sometime, see different cultures and different age ranges and different socioeconomic situations, it's the same all over, women like to and will complain about most anything and everything. And to put the frosting on top, most people outside of the US/West absolutely despise American Women/Western Women. Despise them. For the gross entitlement, rudeness and complaining

B) Most women care barely deal with and stand most other women. Period. Stop. Just that. Most women drive other women nuts. So should any guy get too worked up if most women is going to complain to him until it drives him nuts too. It's gotten so bad that it's become COMEDY. It's now typical comedy to talk about women nagging, complaining and just generally making everyone miserable when they aren't getting what they want and when they want it.

Is this all women? No. No absolutes. But is it so many women that it's overwhelming and one could say "Most"? Yes, I'd say so.

Why do most men put up with it? Most don't know any better. They think there is an "answer" or a magical unicorn where this won't happen. The rest of the men? They've come to terms that if they want regular legal sex in a logistically convenient set up, this is a universal price to be paid.

Most men also don't understand how to compartmentalize a woman's emotions. If the wife is screaming that the roof is one fire, OK, that's a serious situation and a practical complaint. But if her best friend made her sad, traffic was horrible, if a coworker was rude to her and on and on and on, you just can't emotionally invest in that and cope as a human being. You have to recognize what she feels is IMPORTANT TO HER, and you can "understand" that, but you don't have to "accept" is a burden you also must carry as well. This is the basis of basic boundaries. Most people don't have them and fail at them.

From a guy's side, she's important. Her current feelings however are not always important. They don't always have value to him.

From a girl's side, she's important BECAUSE her feelings are important. Her current feelings are her current reality. They always have value to her. And anything that contradicts that is the enemy.

The problem is not the complaining, the larger issue is the "Lose/Lose" scenario. If he does X, then he's punished for it, but does Y, and would still be punished for it, the only answer is there is no point trying and in the end the only result will be more punishment. This is soul crushing.

This is why real love is so heartbreaking. There are elements that make you so happy. The way her hair smells when you hold her and spoon her. Her soft skin. The scent of her on your clothes. Her laughter. Her child like joy at the things you might take for granted. The power of true raw feminine polarity. Then elements like these make you so very very sad. You'd be willing to die for this person, and you've been reduced to a human emotional punching bag. You recognize all you are doing is fighting a holding pattern, but every time you fall back, eventually there will be no more room to retreat and then it ends.

twelfthy · 2017-10-30T04:49:30+00:00

My husband and I make similar money, but I am not attached to my career or being a breadwinner in the same way he is. This makes it a simple decision on who will stay home when we have kids. This is something we discussed at length before marrying, so there are no surprises there.

Having a spouse to take care of the children and home frees men up to achieve more in their careers, and this is part of the reason why married men are given so much more respect in the workplace. Unmarried men above a certain age simply do not progress in my workplace, as they're seen as unpredictable and unsettled. It's a big risk to give a man any real power in the workplace when he doesn't have a wife to manage things in the background for him

LateralThinker13 · 2017-10-30T13:33:15+00:00

do we think there might have been lack of respect on the wife's side? Too demanding? Not enough appreciation? Wanting it all?

The men, successful but blue pill, sense that their women will "realize that being a mother/homemaker will bring them more happiness" and will snap out of their career ambitions. They also realize on some level that doing all the house chores will kill the relationship (beta), so they don't.

They still lose, because her choosing to be a "strong, independent career woman" is the ultimate shit test.

[deleted] · 2017-10-29T21:52:15+00:00

This is gonna sound like a weird comparison. Supermarkets carry Halal and Kosher products because 2% of the population refuse to eat anything else. Likewise the mainstream media opinion has to blow smoke up the ass of the feminist perspective or they will face complaints and loss of advertising revenue and readership.

Fuck the news.

justtenofusinhere · 2017-10-29T23:12:18+00:00

I make a lot more than my wife. I work a lot more to. And this is after I supported her getting her graduate degree so she could have her career. We had a fight about my not treating her career as equal to mine. She let me know that she was tired of having to change her schedule to accommodate family life while I refused to do so. She was tired that my career was so much more important than hers.

I thought a moment, smiled and conceded, "I'll cut my hours back to mach how much you cut your spending back. "

She's never brought it up since.

Wissenschaft85 · 2017-10-30T20:53:59+00:00

How about this, decide for yourself which do you want more, advancing your career or keeping a good man in your life and starting a family. Women need to learn to pick one or the other because no matter your gender, focusing on advancing your career comes at the cost of your family life.

This insistence that all women should priorities their careers over good husband material is foolish. More money won't make you happy. It may leave you exhausted because with career advancement comes more responsibility and typically longer hours.

FireflyGurl · 2017-10-29T21:59:03+00:00

I agree that you should talk about child rearing before you get married.

You should also talk about what is expected from each other in the relationship.

A woman who has to lower her career goals to help with children because her husband isn't helping equally, probably has a husband that didn't help equally with other things in the first place.

Title	Harvard article: Stay single if your spouse doesn't support your career.
Author	vanBeethovenLudwig
Upvotes	24
Comments	52
Date	October 29, 2017 2:00 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	/r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/harvard-article-stay-single-if-your-spouse-doesnt.73676 https://theredarchive.com/post/73676
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/79gmhm/harvard_article_stay_single_if_your_spouse_doesnt/