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If female hypergamy is a thing, why did I choose him?

December 3, 2019

So a couple of years back I met two guys. One had a well paid job, nice car, his own apartment. Took me out for dinner dates, great in bed, romantic and made me feel special.

The other was long term NEET, old car, still lived with his parents despite being in his early 30s. He took me out for dinner twice in the 2 years I knew him. Sub standard in bed technically but for some reason I was extremely turned on by him and so sex always felt amazing due to the psychological aspect. Never made me feel secure, always disrespectful. Romance was him pressing my face into his parents living room rug with my ass in the air.

I cut off the first guy a few months in and decided to focus my efforts on the second one. The second guy rejected me, and now the first one is marrying another girl this week.

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Post Information
Title If female hypergamy is a thing, why did I choose him?
Author palealien00
Upvotes 113
Comments 84
Date December 3, 2019 2:48 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
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[–][deleted] 140 points141 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Because there is something in your subconscious that attracted you to the less ideal man. Maybe you don't view yourself as being worthy of a man who has himself together, or you grew up with abuse and your love map has been established to look for men who behave in a similar fashion. You are obviously not healthy if you are attracted to men who treat you like dirt and don't have anything going for them. Wanting to choose the best option possible only applies to women with a healthy mindset, however there is a balance. A balance between understanding how attractive you are in comparison to other people and having enough self love to reject men with obvious deal breakers.

[–]palealien00[S] 84 points85 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You're right, I had an extremely unsettled childhood. Both my parents were narcs, domestic violence household.

I've decided to give dating a break and work on myself, heal from past experiences and such

[–]patcoot_sa37 points38 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That was a mature as response dawg

[–]ZegiknieEndorsed Contributor19 points20 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]Mollusc611 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, so think of hypergamy this way, it's overlaid on 'culture' and how you were raised. You were raised in an environment which molded what you found desirable. In this case for whatever reason your mind has been impressed on that men who are aggressive / douche nozzles are highly valuable / desirable men as this is what you saw/ learned in childhood. All women work on a hypergamy structure, but what is considered desirable/ high value can be heavily influenced by culture and environment.

[–]Throwaway23030638 points39 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think in the end women want to be with a man who is, above all, sexually arousing. The natural desire to please, satisfy and sacrifice for a man is rooted in how much a woman wants sleep with that man.

For you, that was the NEET (who sounds like a classic sexy jerk).

As for hypergamy, from the red pill perspective, the AF/BB theory best explains what's going on here.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor57 points58 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy – The instinctual urge for women to seek out the best alpha available. This is marked by maximizing rejection (therefore women are the selective gender). A woman will vet her alpha through various shit tests to ensure his "health" on the alpha scale. She is conditioned to recognize a declining alpha, as hypergamy also tends to continue seeking out higher status males even while with an alpha male...

I'm inclined to agree with /u/_your_cat_is_ugly that there is more going on than hypergamy.

However, hypergamy is more than income. We look for dominant men (everyone to different degrees) and Loser Dude was showing signs of dominance (BDSM sex, DGAF attitude).

Had you given the Good Guy any thought until you found out he was getting married? That's preselection. He looks good now because some other woman wants him....better than Loser Dude...and that is also hypergamy.

[–]red_philosopher17 points18 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

There's a huge slew of missing information from the OP, though I would argue that her hypergamous nature was in full swing. There's no measure of physical attractiveness, or a measure of the capacity for violence between the two men (though the second likely has this in spades.)

Still, couldn't have said it better.

The tingles tend to override good judgement- for men and for women.

[–]palealien00[S] 11 points12 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

They were attractive in different ways. Guy 1 was short average build, but had very masculine manner of way of holding himself, also masculine facial features.

Guy 2 was an ex fashion model. Very tall, slim, but awkward in posture and feminine facial features. His eyes were terrifyingly beautiful. They usually had a seductive smirk with processors whirring away behind them. When he'd gotten what he wanted, his mask came off and they'd be filled with cold hatred.

Edit: Honestly, I think Guy 2 would talk a lot of smack but would end up getting floored by Guy 1

[–]red_philosopher52 points53 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

All you need to know is how many words you used to describe each guy, and you know exactly why your hypergamy ditched Guy 1.

[–]palealien00[S] 6 points7 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

V good point

[–]vintagegirlgame19 points20 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Yes guy 2 had you hooked emotionally and that’s what triggers the hypergamy and makes you perceive him as more alpha. Men like him know how to subtly manipulate emotions by swinging unpredictably from positive to negative behavior and back, this creates an emotional roller coaster of hormones that causes an addictive response in women. It’s the same science that goes behind getting people addicted to gambling or social media.

[–]palealien00[S] 6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely on point. His hot and cold thing drove me to the point of insanity

[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst10 points11 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Variable schedule of reinforcement

Were your parents unpredictable ?

Guy #1 was probably capable of protecting you; your parents didn't protect you, so it wasn't on your radar as a thing to look for in a relationship.

Maybe try mapping all your parents' characteristics, separate them into functional and dysfunctional, and then look for guys who have none of the dysfunctional ones, and practice relating to and appreciating people who have the opposite of your parents' dysfunctional traits/behaviors.

[–]palealien00[S] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

My father was predictably unreliable/distant/uncaring, but my mother was insanely unpredictable. She definitely wore the trousers.

That's a neat idea. Put it this way, I have a perfect example of what NOT to look for

[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

She definitely wore the trousers

I next think this: guy #1 was maybe relatively less dominant than #2, and also less stereotypically dominant than you, and you didn't want to end up like your mother, dominating your man - so you picked the one you couldn't dominate.

I've heard it said that no matter where most women fall on the dominance spectrum, they typically want a man who's a bit more dominant than they are. Unless the woman is just not feminine, and then they want to dominate the man. My guess is that's generally true. I know when I see woman who dominates her man, I want to deprogram both of them. Sue me.

You say you:

been described as having a masculine way of thinking, and a friend pointed out to me recently that I always go for men with feminine features.

and yet guy #2 dominated the shit out of you , right? So maybe you were just more masculine than guy #1. And that's also why you selected the guy who was more beautiful. Was your father beautiful ?

AND MAYBE (sorry I have to shout, I'm all the way over here) your search criteria have been warped so that you throw out the baby with the bathwater. You think that certain characteristics which are actually dysfunctional are positive.

I keep pointing people to this post on MRP because it illustrates this point I'm making about baby/bathwater. His wife was being a bitch and had no f'n clue what an awesome husband she had, and she came this: || close to losing him. People think that women are attracted to bad boys because bad boys are dominant and potent but the super high quality somewhat dominant men are off the radar because they don't seem dangerous. However, making partner choice decisions in early 20s on the basis of superficial traits ignores the potential effects of developmental psychology down the road. The mid-life crisis / dead bedroom crisis turns some of these guys desperate. And desperate men can take you by surprise- but it takes a decade or two of seasoning in the meat smoker/barbecue grill of adulthood to bring out that desperation. Teenage men don't act like 20-something men, and 30-something real men don't act like guy#2. Guys in their 40s act totally different from all of them if they meet the challenges of life head on, unless developmentally stuck like guy #2 is.

So lucky you - getting a conscious foretaste of how your mate choice strategy would have played out long term. As others have noted, you are showing a remarkable lack of ego in looking at your situation and your behavior. There is a lot of reason for optimism for you if you continue to work on yourself so honestly. I wish I had introspected and analyzed myself as well as you are doing now, when I was your age.

[–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They weren’t attractive in different ways, you just thought guy 2 was hotter than guy 1.

[–]palealien00[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

In terms of my own personal preference, yes. But if I were to list all their universally attractive traits e.g. good posture, tall they would be on the same level

[–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yet you chose not to.

You stoically mentioned 2 negative traits and one positive trait for guy 1.

You gushed for nearly a full paragraph about guy 2. His “negatives” were worded so positively and emotionally that most people would have perceived them as positives.

I understand you want to believe they were someone “equal”, but to you they very clearly were not anywhere near equal.

You try to say this was a bad choice, but given the way you talk about him it seems like you view him as the one who got away and would take him back in a heartbeat.

[–]anon_throwaway_1210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This makes it all make sense

[–]dangernoodle887 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also a younger woman is probably going to be more drawn to pleasure and fun whereas an older woman who's more serious about nailing down a long term mate would be more inclined to display hypergamy in a pragmatic sense (income, stability, status)

[–]anon_throwaway_1211 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Interesting.. does this mean guys with long hair are at a disadvantage even if it was attractive on him?

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure where you got that from my comment. Long hair or not is a preference. It's not innately feminine on a man.

[–]anon_throwaway_1211 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It’s from personal observation. I think it’s fair to assume that a man with very long hair look more feminine than a man with short hair.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it depends on the man and is not automatically feminine. But maybe that's just me.

[–]anon_throwaway_1211 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I was thinking much longer hair, something like this

[–]Ghustgan18 points19 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Reading some of the comments it's obvious you simply chose the better looking one to have fun with. Everyone is overthinking it.

[–]palealien00[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Hmm. I've always had a high sex drive. I've been described as having a masculine way of thinking, and a friend pointed out to me recently that I always go for men with feminine features. Maybe my testosterone is high and I seek out a partner the same way a man would - prioritising sexual attractiveness above all else

[–]Ghustgan6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's quite a few generalizations and stereotypes you got going on there to base whatever theories come out of your mouth, just saiyan.

[–]palealien00[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Isn't the whole red pill theory based on gender roles?

[–]mtriad1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yes and they can be easily inverted, so you're right

[–]renthefox8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Have you ever read the book The Red Queen? It does a pretty good job of describing why you might have done what you did. In biological terms it’s called a mixed strategy.

I wouldn’t feel bad. I think Richard Dawkins put it best in his book The Selfish Gene when he said something along the lines of; we don’t do what is best for us, we do what is best for our genes’ survival, and those are two very different things.

[–]palealien00[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmmm I've heard them mentioned before. Thanks, I'll check them out!

[–]Manny14008 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You may have been worried that you didn't "deserve" guy #1, and that he would ultimately be unreliable. Your self-esteem might have been too low at the time, and you may have felt that guy #2 was easier.

Guys do this all the time: they settle for lower quality women because they feel that if affords them more control, requires less effort, etc. I did this a couple times in my 20s, until waking up one day and realizing I was selling myself short

[–]LateralThinker134 Stars51 points52 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Let me rephrase your question: "Why did I reject the beta provider in favor of the dark triad alpha?"

It isn't anything to do with hypergamy. You wanted the bad boy, not the good boy.

EDIT: Also, you don't understand hypergamy. Hypergamy is about trading UP from an existing relationship to a perceived better relationship/partner. I don't see that here. It doesn't sound like you had a committed relationship with either man. You're just dating and, if I may be blunt, putting out way too easily. Which is part of why you're getting poorly treated.

[–]sonder_one1 Star24 points25 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Upvoted, and yet, rejecting a beta provider in favor of a dark triad alpha IS hypergamy.

Alpha > beta.

[–]palealien00[S] 7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Damnnn, telling it like it is. Now it makes sense. Thanks

[–]BlankPages14 points15 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your field report is textbook TRP dogma. For all of human history until the last 2000 years (and that's only when it slowed down), women getting sexually dominated by an uncommitted alpha (AF) was just another Tuesday. Those AF genes were passed along to offspring generation after generation and the female offspring had all the traits of their mom who happily submitted to that uncommitted alpha with their faces pressed onto the ground and their asses up in the air, continuing the cycle. There is literally nothing more natural than your behavior with your AF man.

[–]palealien00[S] 14 points15 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

When I was 8, I was dragged out of bed at 6am by my mother to be weaponised and taken to the hotel room where my father was in bed with another woman.

When I was 11, my mother had a relationship with a married man. His wife turned up on our doorstep. Safe to say the kindest word she said to her was "whore".

It's no wonder my perception of relationships is skewed and I chose poorly. But now I've recognised it, I can change my perception

[–]LethalShade5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't judge yourself and learn and do better. Nothing breaks my heart more than people being attracted to shitty partners and believe me, I've been there myself.

Work on yourself and be confident in what you provide and you'll deserve a confident, dominant man that will cherish you and love you to death.

Best of luck friend, you got this.

[–]Manny14005 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

and from that you learned that men are unreliable. You also learned that women are impulsive

My father cheated on my mother numerous times and had long-term bimbos. Divorce was the end-game. The bimbos stuck around for his money

Terrible example for a young kid. Grew up thinking people were complete shit, and I had trust issues. Took me a long time to get with the right people and to find good examples

[–]palealien00[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Would you mind DMing me? It'd be really helpful to know how you overcame those issues given your situation was similar to mine

[–]Manny14000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]BlankPages-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

good luck

[–]LateralThinker134 Stars0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No problem.

[–]DonutsJunction5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Just thought I would share - One of my old coworkers did this recently. She was with a guy for 3 Years - sweet as pie, gentle, kind, was always telling her how beautiful she was etc etc. He would bring her McDonald's for lunch when she'd ask him and would drop in to surprise her..once bringing in cupcakes made from ingredients she wasn't allergic to so she could try her first cupcake. She would tell us all the time how whipped he is. My other coworkers (I consider these girls my actual friends) and I were pretty grossed out by the way she would talk about him. A year or so ago she suddenly broke up with him, hooked up in the car with her long time friend, then got back with him. I already knew I didn't like this chick but that forever changed my perception of her.

Fast forward to a couple months ago - she broke up with him, again. Claiming cheating but that it's a "grey area" and won't explain what he did..and now she's already dating a new guy and has moved in with him. He is the total opposite of her ex - looks like a slimeball, full sleeve tattoos, and apparently gets violently angry when they go out and anyone so much as glances in her general direction.

She done goofed.

[–]palealien00[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Someone's already said something similar, but it appears as if women with low self esteem like myself go for guys with "ultra-alpha" traits. The modern edition of a caveman clubbing you over the head and dragging you into his cave to reproduce. Ultra submissive needs ultra dominant as protection

[–]DonutsJunction3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can totally see that. My dad is emotionally /verbally abusive and I'm still working through that shit and I'm 37. It set me really behind in life. There was a f*ckboy I used to have a major crush on but then I realised he was a loser. A sexy sexy loser. He was in a band and everything, alcoholic, and did drugs. I think he has a good heart but he's very lost. I was the one that got away for him when I cut things off and refused to meet up with him 10+ years ago. He was last in touch with me about 3 Years ago and would text me whenever he broke up with his girlfriend 🙄🙄🙄

In the case of my coworker she's hyper narcissistic and this new guy is a huge ego boost for her cause he's dominant but also super possessive. We speculate she was emotionally cheating with him before breaking it off with her ex. She's in for a world of hurt when he does it to her.

Edited to add: I wish you luck sorting out your shit. We all deserve to feel cherished by our significant other. Expect no less.

[–]RedPillMissionary6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's still hypergamy. Some women just view abuse as a sign of alpha status.

[–]Natuasi5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not surprising at all. You’re attracted to that which you are, i.e. damaged goods.

More often than not women are attracted to and choose guys who they believe they can fix.

[–]SteroidsFreak3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nailed it! Confident men tend to go with confident women who know what they want. A woman with no goals, no ambition, no way wanting to better themselves will attract broken men with no ambition, no goals, same old cycle. Women then desire a man who is the opposite of all that.

In the end they will end up repeating the same cycle.

[–]Natuasi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bingo, my friend.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think because women tend to like the idea of 'fixing a broken man' so when he is fixed he's grateful and we receive his love and affection in return.

It comes down to emotion; there's no challenge or stimulation in being with the 'perfect guy'; A lot of people think they want someone perfect, but don't realize how bored they'd get after a while - Often causing them to act out and even cheat.

[–]SmartNSexyRodKaine4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy is an instinct which isn't strictly tied only to material wealth. The idea is reproductive fitness. Material wealth can help with that, but its not the only thing the instinct considers because other things can help too. A smooth operator who shoves your face into the rug will probably have a son who also convinces the next generation of lusty girls to get their faces shoved into the rug as well. So odds of grandchildren are high, so it can be selected for by evolution. Hypergamy is holistic in that it considers all traits conducive to reproductive fitness. That's all described well in the thousands of articles on the alpha beta dichotomy.

[–]bretl00210 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Kind of feels like you just proved hypergamy is real since the first guy is getting married this year.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

No this is not a good example. The guy she ended up with was a loser, likely due to having a mindset that is not healthy. She deliberately sabotaged her relationship with the man who had himself together, probably because of her own low self esteem.

[–]red_philosopher1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy has nothing to do with how the men are percieved by us. It has everything to do with how the female brain perceives the men that it comes across. The first guy had his shit together, surely, but the second? That's primal. Given the two men, I'd bet in a heartbeat that the second "loser" guy would wipe the floor with the first "good" guy if it came down to dirty work.

Women are attracted to "bad boys" for a reason. And it's precisely because they are capable of violence, the trick is figuring out if they'll ever hurt them.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sorry, but I have never been into bad boys myself. The only women who want to get with men who can potentially hurt them are women who have issues to go through and they have warped views about what positive masculinity is.

[–]red_philosopher4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sorry, but I have never been into bad boys myself.

You just know the difference between truly bad men and good men who are capable.

What would get your jollies going more? All other things being equal- a guy who looks like he can handle himself, or a guy who looks like he would fold under pressure? The "bad boy" archetype is a mental shortcut used by women who are damaged as you describe. That doesn't make what it represents to the female brain any less true.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I like dorky Asian men.

[–]usnodat3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“I'd bet in a heartbeat that the second "loser" guy would wipe the floor with the first "good" guy if it came down to dirty work.” rofl every woman thinks the guy their attracted to is secretly jack reacher

[–]bretl0020 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Think you might be misunderstanding. The first guy is an example of hypergamy given that he is getting married now.

[–]Almcoding2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

First hypergamy is observed by many studies done with many people and therefore a single case like yours is statitically irrelevant.

Second I'm wondering what you're age is? I think age which correlates with experience is important in your case

[–]palealien00[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Early 20s. I'm very grateful to have learnt this lesson early instead of after multiple divorces and having children

[–]Almcoding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure making mistakes earlier than later is much better. Woman in your age range, I would say, value a man's sexappeal more than his financial and emotional stability, generally speaking. This doesn't change much when woman get older (you can't negotiate attraction and you have very little influence about whom you're attracted to) but they become more rational when choosing a partner... That's where trade-offs between alpha and beta traits are made

[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy Link


[–]palealien00[S] 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They say 80% of the female orgasm is psychological. Physical foreplay was practically non existent with this guy, but he was very talented at mental foreplay, i.e. mind games that made me want to fuck the shit out of him. I'm not a psychiatrist by any means but I strongly suspect he was dark triad

[–]BlankPages2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, nobody here doubts that he is.

[–]palealien00[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

He's unlikely to be a psychopath. Almost certainly a narcissist

[–]BlankPages0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]StepfordInTexas1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

In the words of Dr Laura; do you think you are ugly, fat or unlovable?

Those are the reason why women “go” for crappy men.

[–]palealien00[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

In the rate game I usually get a rating of 7-9/10; dependant on personal taste. I'm very slim but could do with some muscle tone. I know that with my lifestyle and self confidence being how it currently is, there's no way the equivalent 7-9/10 male could ever love or respect me

[–]StepfordInTexas2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So you think you are unlovable. Work on that.

[–]palealien00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's more that I'm currently selling myself short, so I won't be able to obtain commitment from the men who would be within my league if I maximised my potential

[–]Philmckrackin69163 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Cos the poor dude was alpha af. He’s a real alpha man because of his genetics. That’s why you we’re attracted to him. All women are attracted to alpha males and use beta males for resources. Simple

[–]palealien00[S] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

A real alpha would never disrespect a woman to the extent Guy 2 did. It only results in the woman becoming emotionally worn out, more prone to acting "crazy" and more likely to try and take him for everything he has in the divorce if applicable

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

An Alpha, in my understanding, is someone who gives women the tingles. A beta is someone who makes them feel comforted. So I'm not sure what you mean by "real alpha".

[–]palealien00[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's possible to seduce a woman without treating her like crap. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, it doesn't make you a pushover

[–]mtriad6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

people are too stuck up with this alpha vs beta they don't even know what is what

from your description (his feminine features) you could even theorise that he's got beta features

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Uhhhhh, you are the fly in this metaphor, and your own experience doesn't align with what you're saying. I agree he sounds toxic but he also sounds alpha, if he was able to keep you coming back without any hint of commitment.

[–]Pola_Lita1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If female hypergamy is a thing, it's still just one of lots of things that have an effect on what a woman decides to do and why. With all the "here and now" type possibilities, logical and intellectual influences and greater education available to even the average woman, to say we are overwhelmed by an instinct based in survival of the species seems silly.

What you've described here sounds like it's probably much more complicated than there's even room to describe in this format, though I think you are one step in the right direction to even recognize the problem as you have. Get some therapy if possible and keep believing in your own perception and intelligence.

[–]Ilivetowork1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Low self esteem maybe

[–]Icenri0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that challenge is exciting and the second one is definitely more of a challenge than the first one.

[–]extraacct12340 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is literally a male pretending to be a woman. He's practically nonverbal.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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