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Ironic regret of not having a career

November 28, 2022
121 upvotes

I found this page in my early 20s. It completely radicalized me, I read all books, my political beliefs flipped. I felt so relieved to be able to admit my desires were to be deeply cherished in a relationship with a masculine man, and become a young stay a home mother rather than flounder in some career as a slave to a corporate boss. I completed my BA, resolved some health issues, and explored my passions. I trained to be a yoga teacher, and traveled. I met a man when I was 25 who checked every box. He was looking for a wife and future mother of his children and pursued me intentionally with this purpose. Bought a home and proposed to me.

Fast forward to 29, turns out he had been cheating on me, and the early course of our relationship was mirroring my desires to hook me. He tried to baby trap me and financially abused me by guilting me into paying half the bills in a home I would never own. I worked twice the hours he did and made less than 1/4 of his salary.

Looking back I’m stunned how cruel to me he became. He constantly told me I was worthless and without him would have nothing, he was afraid I’d leave him otherwise. He’d leverage my financial dependence on him, which confused me bc he expressly didn’t want a woman with a career.

So now I’m at the end of my 20s with a dead end day job, (I love teaching yoga but it doesn’t pay the bills.) debt, and am a cliche traumatized single almost 30 year old. I work 7 days a week sometimes 12 hour days and don’t feel like I’m even making a dent to support myself. I don’t know how to be in a breezy effortless sensual feminine energy while supporting myself and trying to heal. I feel like life’s been cruel, and I feel like I’ve been stupid.

I’m kind hearted, adore children, have lots of talents and hobbies, love to cook, and joyful and bubbly and loving, I stay in shape and look younger than I am but haven’t slept properly in ages, I know I can’t evade time forever.

I’m off dating apps and don’t drink or go out because I work every day. I live in a suburb without seemingly anyone who shares my values.

The only real light at the end of the tunnel has been finding god and nurturing friendships with other women. Though I love them, I’ve fallen in with a friendgroup of women who are older and single and have been similarly harmed by toxic male relationships.

What advice would you give to me moving forward? Any encouragement hope tough love or just regular old love love would be appreciated.

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Post Information
Title Ironic regret of not having a career
Author moonchildcountrygirl
Upvotes 121
Comments 46
Date November 28, 2022 11:12 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/ironic-regret-of-not-having-a-career.1141470
https://theredarchive.com/post/1141470
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/z7c00j/ironic_regret_of_not_having_a_career/
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Comments

[–]Jenneapolis 68 points69 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It really depends on what you want. 30 isn’t too old to go to grad school or start a higher paying career path. I graduated at 29 and wasn’t the oldest or even close in my class. Don’t let a rough 4 year relationship determine your entire life course. Had you remained single, you have no idea where you would be. It’s easy to fantasize about the road less traveled, we all do it, but it’s just that - a fantasy.

[–]Pomphond 15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Indeed. Here in Northern Europe, it's almost uncommon to go to grad school (and get paid for it) before you hit thirty. I was 25 when I started and I'm really one of the younger ones...

[–]Stock_Chemist1469 76 points77 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You didn’t have children with him so you’re in a better position and you’re not raising kids with an awful person. Be choosier now. Do you belong to a church ? Ask like minded people to fix you up. Maybe older yoga students?

[–]kkat02 17 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’d say put a focus on not dating for a while. Usually 6-12 months and learn to be happy alone. Find your happiness again. In that time focus on finding a job you like, or a school program, or something that can sustain your future. When you decide to date again, be choosier and focus on finding somebody’s values that align with your own.

You’re 29, not 60. There are women who are in a similar situation to you who are stuck, whether it be because they have kids or don’t want to start over later in your life. You may feel your time has been wasted but you’re still young.

[–]Redlimetree 11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That would be disheartening. But I think you'll still do well! We all go through hiccups in life and get frustrated when things aren't exactly going as planned. Take it as a life lesson, grow and you'll eventually find happiness in the journey of life again.

Just a suggestion. Can you move into the childcare industry? It's very much in demand and pays alright (in my country at least, I hope yours too). You enjoy working with kids. And you'll be able to meet many mothers and might find some as suitable friends.

I do want to rant a little bit about modern society. I think it's silly how people can do and pay for 3 years of study at university and not have it open good career doors for them.

[–]JustaTcup 10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I do want to rant a little bit about modern society. I think it's silly how people can do and pay for 3 years of study at university and not have it open good career doors for them.

OMG for real. Two useless papers over here yet no one will hire me. And before anyone reading this starts lol. They are both in STEM. I didn't choose poorly.

[–]rosesonthefloor3 Star 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Networking is huge for finding jobs. Can you volunteer for an org that aligns with the industry you’d like to break into? I manage volunteers and we lose many of our younger ones to full time jobs.

[–]JustaTcup 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I actually did this for several months while I was in school and it did help me then get a sort of internship but then after that I wasn't able to get anything at all once I graduated. Thank you for the advice though.

[–]sunglasses903 Stars 15 points16 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

So you never got married to him? And you don’t have children?

[–]moonchildcountrygirl[S] 38 points39 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I found out about a month before the wedding and subsequently left. No children thankfully

[–]sunglasses903 Stars 28 points29 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So it’s a learning experience. You wasted some time, BUT you also learned what not to do or put up with so really it wasn’t wasted. I met my fiancé at 28, engaged at 29 and married at 30. So options are out there for who you want to be with.

[–]BDSM_Wolf1 points [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

You probably shouldn’t have left. Most men will cheat if they have the option. Unless you have been generally unhappy with your guy, it would be better to accept reality.

[–]therealtaulbs 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

A good man will not. It’s not worth investing time in one that will.

[–]BDSM_Wolf1 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

A „good man“ is the type of guy that women tend to friendzone. Yes. Some of them won’t cheat. They typically don’t have a lot of options to cheat

[–]rosesonthefloor3 Star 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good men are the exact type of man women here are looking for. Please leave since you clearly don’t understand this sub.

[–]moonchildcountrygirl[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Is this satire?

[–]BDSM_Wolf1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Reality. Most men will cheat. It is what it is.

[–]rosesonthefloor3 Star 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s just… factually untrue.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that’s the thing…

You can’t win at life. Nobody can. There is no such thing.

Things will improve for you, just have faith and be intentional with your decision making.

[–]silkflowers47 37 points38 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I see couples where the man makes all the money and there is definitely an unhealthy power dynamic of who wields the money. My parents were in that situation and i was the child. I do think women need to make some money to buy what they want and earn respect from their husband. My dad made it his duty to bring in the bread for our household. We lived comfortably but he would use the money as a tool to control my mom. He lost respect for my mom as she was staying home. You need to have the capability of making money. Your partner needs to know you are a high income earner too. Stay at home mom should be a convenient, easy luxurious choice you make.

If i were in your position, i would try to increase your income and explore urban cities. A yoga studio where the median income is high is where you want to work at. If you decide to continue your yoga instruction career, you can be an instructor at equinox or other upscale gyms. You can be an instructor at other high end luxury services. You definitely need to work on your soft skills also. You can also find a career that utilizes your college degree. You should get a job that requires a bachelors education and you can make more income.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m so sorry that was your experience with money growing up. I’m sure that was really hard to work through as an adult. I agree that your partner knowing your value is important. There’s been many times in my relationship that I am bringing in more money than my partner. We realized when my store closed that life was much easier when one of us was at home full time. And again how hard it was when we both worked when I decided to go back to work for a year.

[–]silkflowers47 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah, my mom makes money to support me now so its fine. Yeah its not sustainable for a household to have two working parents. One person needs to be in charge of fonances

[–]Ok_Obligation_61101 Star 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just want to throw in here for a different perspective, men don’t necessarily respect their wives for earning money. If he’s paying all the bills anyway I don’t see how having pocket change will really earn any respect from a man just like he wouldn’t respect a woman for out earning him.

Men respect women for the value they bring in their lives and earning a little cash for your own spending doesn’t really do that. Being at home to raise his children, take care of his meals, clothing, keeping the house in order, etc CAN earn his respect (if he’s a traditional minded good man with no hang ups of his own).

There are men who are with women who earn for their household who still don’t respect them as they also expect them to cook, clean, raise the children as if they don’t also work, while they do none of those things. It’s a trap to believe earning money is going to earn you any respect. For your own security, sure, but let’s not delude ourselves that men care at all. If you’re a SAHW you can ensure your financial security in other ways if you have a husband willing to provide for you in the form of a prenup or money in a separate account so you always have access to cash yourself. Vetting is the key since not all men are the same in their values and desires.

[–]kadk216 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I’m a sahw and I’ve never felt disrespected or unappreciated by my husband. I help him with running his business, maintaining the house, doing tax prep, etc. I am currently pregnant with our first and plan to continue staying home. I’m grateful to have a husband who respects me.

Both my husband and I were raised in homes with stay at home moms, so we both wanted that for our own children. He owns his own business so it helps to have someone maintain the home/do business stuff when he works long hours. If i need money to spend my husband will gladly give it to me. I’m not big on shopping or buying things I don’t need. I also have my own investments/stock portfolio (that are ours to share).

[–]Environmental_Ad58673 Stars 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m sorry this happened to you though one should count your blessings that you found out early enough before marriage papers were signed or children are involved.

And with moving forward, there isn’t much stock in dwelling on the past too much. Can’t be changed but you can learn from it! Maybe look at the relationship more closely to see if there were red flags that you didn’t pick up on, what you could’ve changed.

Personally, although I knew why my past relationships ended, I always felt analysing them to see what went right/wrong/what I could’ve done helps me improve myself and look out for red flags in the future. Taking accountability for my own part helped me reframe how I move forward. Most relationships I’ve had ended on good terms but I’ve also had 2 very bad ones- but all in all, I haven’t any regrets because through each one, I’ve processed a lot and learnt so much about myself. I’m a much better person/partner.

Career wise- it’s never too late to try something new so don’t feel like you’re at a dead end just because of a bad relationship or choices you’ve made.

Also 29 isn’t late to find your person. I had a relationship end at 29 and funnily enough I met my partner one week before my 30th birthday. We’re planning to get engaged early next year (he’s found the ring but wants the proposal itself to be a surprise!).

PS: just to add, be careful of spending time with ‘echo chambers’ as that can potentially hamper your own progress but it’s always helpful to have a supportive community

[–]LeicaRedEye 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm sorry it didn't work out. You are not too old to restart, and you already have a lot of experience in life and work. Being a hard worker is always a plus.

Most people, regardless of their gender, don't have a career. A job that pays the bills is not a career. It's still honourable and respectful to work for a living. How else are you going to survive? Not everyone makes it big time on their path. I was literally killing myself in my sector and it never became a career that I would be proud of. I don't regret working hard because it helped me educate myself and pay my bills and be independent from my parents.

I personally think that misery loves company and would really be careful to not be too influenced by your girlfriends. You can easily squander your next 10 years wallowing with them, and one day wake up an even more bitter 40 something woman.

Network, work hard and be more careful who you invite in your life.

[–]Runningmari99 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I second this about the friends! First thing I thought of

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Girl I was there!

At 22 I got married to a man I thought was everything I ever wanted. 10 months later I was divorced. With no job and the only place to go was my moms couch until my sister moved for college.

I was a manager for Wendys in 6 months. (Quite literally called my old boss in the uhaul driving through North Carolina and left her a voice mail that said I’d be back in Illinois within 48 hours and needed a job.)

THEN! My mom met a man who lived an hour and a half away and decided to move in with him a year after I moved back. So I had a choice. Live on my own or start over again! (Now at 24). I couldn’t afford it and I knew I didn’t want to get stuck living the life I had so desperately run from. Dead end jobs in a small town.

So I moved with them and couldn’t afford to drive to and from work so I quit my job and started back in retail. Part time. At least it was something. I went back to the company I had worked at before ex. They gladly brought me on in august with my experience. By November I was the full time merchandise supervisor. The company changed roles and in May became a part time beauty supervisor and got a second job.

Through connections I made, I found a full time role in the automotive industry. Super easy job. And you can do it from home with some remote companies. BDC or internet sales. Usually hourly plus commission and based on how many appointments you set. Not about selling cars at all. Just something to look into.

By this time, I was 27 and I met the man who just asked me to marry him on the 19th. My moms boyfriend got mad because he asked me when I’d been drinking for my birthday if he had my blessing to ask my mom to marry him. And I said I don’t approve. (Long back story) and he told me to get out. We had been together 6 months and ended up moving in together. Which was not our plan. Both continued to work our butts off to make it work and it took us 6 years to finally feel comfortable with me staying home. I still help him part time at his job. Because it helps to have more in the paycheck.

I’m working on building multiple income streams. Is there a way you could build your yoga class out as an online course? Make it something that you only have to record once but could live forever? Creating passive income would help pay the bills and create a savings.

[–]Pastakingfifth 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry, this happened to you, you didn't deserve that.

I would highly recommend you look into starting your own business/brand around your yoga teaching or something similar. I think running their own thing gives women a great double benefit of not fully being dependent on a corporate system to sustain themselves and the flexibility to work from home/take time off for kids whenever they feel like as well as financial leverage so you're not dependant on a single man for your existence.

It's also a great scene to make friends and find cool and well-developed men that are both emotionally intelligent and ambitious.

I’m off dating apps and don’t drink or go out because I work every day. I live in a suburb without seemingly anyone who shares my values.

The only real light at the end of the tunnel has been finding god and nurturing friendships with other women. Though I love them, I’ve fallen in with a friendgroup of women who are older and single and have been similarly harmed by toxic male relationships.

You have to move out of the suburbs into a major metropolitan city. Suburbs are depressing af for single and young people, they're meant for settled-down people. You need to make friends with other young single people that are not bitter and optimistic about life. Great for dating and business opportunities.

It's tempting and easy to make friends with people that are in the same situation as you but ideally, you wanna befriend that are in the situation you want to be in.

[–]hheellooyyoouu_ 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I were you I would start looking for other jobs. I understand you have a BA in an area, maybe take that direction? If not, then just find random jobs that pay better - or pay the same but less work. You are nowhere late! And please do not give him this kind of power to destroy your self esteem, your possibilities and all. Everythinf you have given him: love and affection and care came from you meaning you can give it to the next person when he comes.

[–]LowlyLizzieBCG 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with everyone here. You had a bad experience but a learning one overall. Take it with a grain of salt and push forward. The one perk you really have here is that you definitely got an advance course in maturity and probably vetting to a degree. You had stars in your eyes before and now you've got the lenses of wisdom. Good luck!

[–]simmingslytherin 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

maybe some encouragement: my mom started her university education at age 40 after her and my dad separated. she was a single mom of a very needy 5 year old (me) in a new town all by herself. and with a part time job on top of uni she graduated with mediocre grades. she then went full time at her job as an assistant at the university. now she's a professor and one of the top researchers in her field.

i'm not trying to say you should or shouldn't go back to school or that you need to be a career woman. just that it's never too late to start something new. whatever it is that you've been wanting to do for a long time, whatever it takes to give yourself a sense of security and accomplishment. you sound like a very strong person putting up with all that crap for as long as you did. i wish you all the best. (also it's none of my business but please seek all the help that you need to heal, including professional help. everyone deserves a good therapist but especially after going through something like that.)

[–]therealtaulbs 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My grandma was forever my inspiration. Dropped out of high school to marry my grandpa. Had my dad at 18, and then two more kids. When they got older she wanted a career. Got her GED, then went on to become a pharmacist! She loved her career! All that to say.. it’s NEVER too late to find a career/go to school. It lifted a lot of pressure off of me to know if I didn’t have something I wanted badly at 20, doesn’t mean I never will.

Also, it is HARD to find someone who truly mirrors your values. When you go out, ask questions and let him answer first. Maybe you can find a MOPS (mother’s of preschoolers) group by you and volunteer to help with kids if you find that being a gap in your heart. I’m a firm believer of not being able to force a good relationship. Best of luck!

[–]RainforestLiving 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I met my soul mate husband at 31 and we were married within 6 months of meeting, and now I’m pregnant (I’ll be giving birth right around the 2 year mark after meeting him).

It’s so great that you didn’t have children! And you didn’t even get married. Being engaged means nothing imho.

It sounds like you’re in great shape to reassess what you want and how to find it. You’re way, way wiser now - so you’ll be able to much more easily notice red and green flags that new partners exhibit. It sounds like your ex had a lot of red flags (which is a great thing). Now you know what type of things to look out for. And don’t be afraid of walking away next time you meet someone who seems almost perfect.

Your real mr.perfect is somewhere out there. :)

As for schooling and your work, you could definitely go back to school. Maybe you’ll even meet someone there who will be happy to continue with you on the original path that you wanted. I’d recommend looking towards schooling for professions you can work part time - so that if you do want to be a housewife you can also work if you want! The best of both worlds. :)

[–]LennyLowcut 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Your issues are not just feminine vs masculine issues. I had the same issues a while back. A lot of it stems from the dialogue you have with yourself. Keep keeping on and you will figure a lot of this stuff out own your own and in your own time.

[–]moonchildcountrygirl[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for the encouragement:)

[–]Frankenwulf7 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really do have empathy for women such as yourself. Shit always makes me sad when you have decent women being mistreated and hurt by men. Of course, it is equally sad when this happens to a great guy too. This story reminds me of my current girlfriends past in a way. Her ex was emotionally unavailable. Basically, he wanted to enjoy a bachelor lifestyle while having her as a side chick. She ended up having two kids with him and is just about to turn 28 this December. She put up with him for 6 years and ended the relationship on their 6th anniversary because he fought to go hang with his friends instead of her. What a chode.

Anyways.. I'm sorry this happened to you. My recommendation would be to look up "attachment" styles and learn about the 4 types: anxious, avoidant, disorganized, and secure. Your goal is to find a man with the secure style while also making sure you are secure too. If you feel you're one of the other 3 insecure types, look up the steps you should take to fix your attachment. Adam Lane Smith on youtube has some great stuff about this too! The more information you have about relationships the better, right? That way you know what to look for and what to avoid, so you can hopefully prevent something like this from happening to you and your heart again! God bless!

[–]strvgglecity -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You went out intentionally looking for a sugar daddy, and that's what you got?

[–]moonchildcountrygirl[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not a great sugar daddy considering I was spending all my time and money on a house I’d never own and my inheritance towards a wedding that never happened. I wanted a man who was happy to provide for a family and not cheat. Yknow, values

[–]strvgglecity 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You described a sugar daddy. You wanted someone to pay for your life. That's what your tradition is. You tried it. Apparently men who also like that tradition are sometimes bad people. Perhaps you assumed traditional meant kind. All it means is money.

[–]SophiePralinee1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Seems like he didnt check every box. You completely misjudged him. Idk how you can get out of this situation. You are running out of time if you want to get married and kids. But since you are traumatized I dont see you in a working relationship anytime soon. Going back to school is not an option since you cant afford it. Try to reach out to your local community and see what type of programs they might have to put you back on track.

[–]moonchildcountrygirl[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have a bachelor’s degree and teach yoga, which I love. My friends own a studio and want me to manage it, while they open more studios and eventually franchise. I’d love to buy in as a co owner but don’t know how I’ll afford it, maybe I can get a loan. I feel like this comment was really negative and gloom and doom though

[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Title: Ironic regret of not having a career

Full text: I found this page in my early 20s. It completely radicalized me, I read all books, my political beliefs filled. I felt so relieved to be able to admit my desires were to be deeply cherished in a relationship with a masculine man, and become a young stay a home mother rather than flounder in some career as a slave to a corporate boss. I completed my BA, resolved some health issues, and explored my passions. I trained to be a yoga teacher, and traveled. I met a man when I was 25 who checked every box. He was looking for a wife and future mother of his children and pursued me intentionally with this express purpose. Bought a home and proposed to me.

Fast forward to 29, turns out he had been cheating on me, and the early course of our relationship was mirroring my desires to hook me. He tried to baby trap me and financially abused me by guilting me into paying half the bills in a home I would never own. I worked twice the hours he did and made less than 1/4 of his salary.

So now I’m at the end of my 20s with a dead end day job, (I love teaching yoga but it doesn’t pay the bills.) debt, and am a cliche traumatized single almost 30 year old. I work 7 days a week sometimes 12 hour days and don’t feel like I’m even making a dent to support myself. I don’t know how to be in a breezy effortless sensual feminine energy while supporting myself and trying to heal. I feel like life’s been cruel, and I feel like I’ve been stupid.

I’m kind hearted, adore children, have lots of talents and hobbies, love to cook, and joyful and bubbly and loving, I stay in shape and look younger than I am but haven’t slept properly in ages, I know I can’t evade time forever.

I’m off dating apps and don’t drink or go out because I work every day. I live in a suburb without seemingly anyone who shares my values.

The only real light at the end of the tunnel has been finding god and nurturing friendships with other women. Though I love them, I’ve fallen in with a friendgroup of women who are older and single and have been similarly harmed by toxic male relationships.

What advice would you give to me moving forward? Any encouragement hope tough love or just regular old love love would be appreciated.


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[–]navara590 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ugh, I am so so sorry. Been there, done that, have the scars and self-doubt to prove it. I also ended a toxic (not as bad as the one you describe but bad enough) when I was in my late 20's and have been a nun since then. Please don't beat yourself up - that man was an asshole, and you were young. We all make mistakes, but it does NOT mean that you're stupid. I'm sure you'll get lots of awesome love advice from people, so I kind of want to mention the other half of your post: the work thing. This is a bit of a post based on personal experience, so there will be a lot of "I's" in here; promise I'm not that self-centered!!

First of all: "careers" aren't all they're cracked up to be. I'm 36 and have done everything from waitressing to coffee roasting to fruit picking to furniture delivery; currently working in logistics at a wine warehouse. No job is dead-end if it pays the bills; it is really only people's perception that makes it so. Honestly I wouldn't trade all the random things for anything (but that's just me)!

Second: if a career is what you want, you're never too old to start. I went through a university course at 34/35 to obtain a commercial pilot license, and a friend of mine in the same course was 45. If you want it, there is no magic age limit. Right now is tough. Tough all around. Money isn't going as far as it used to, and a lot of people are struggling at all levels, so please don't feel like a failure. You are doing the best you can. (I've done the 12-hour, 7-days week thing and it's haaaaard yakka, so I hear you.)

Third: just keep on keeping on. The worst is over. You've dumped the creep, and have an opportunity to completely revamp your life. Take all the awesome dating advice people will dish out on this thread, and put it to work. It may take some doing, especially with the way things are right now in an economic sense, but you'll get there in the end. (And if you find the secret recipe for dating success on the way, let me know! 😂😂)

[–]HeidiinTN 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just came here to say that 30 is not as old as you think it is!

[–]sk1ppo 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Beggars can’t be choosers $

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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