Modern women choosing traditional masculinity

Rivkariver · 2018-05-21T16:47:29+00:00

Well my boyfriend has a much more advanced career than I do, and he has a higher ed degree. But he’s also military and really good at several masculine, work with your hands hobbies. He can build all kind of things.

I don’t have an advanced degree and my career isn’t my main focus.

Before I met him, I was surrounded by philosophy student guys, and I couldn’t take it. I needed a man who, while intelligent, didn’t live in his head all the time. And to my relief, my bf doesn’t judge me if I express a thought in a ditzy way once in a while. Some of the philosophy dudes would get smug.

Lots of women like those types of men, but it wasn’t for me. I’m pretty strong willed and knew I needed someone who was more dominant. Yet also very kind. And someone with real life experience and skills, who can handle a crisis and not break down. A book can’t teach you that.

This isn’t a great example for your topic since he is more educated and successful than I am in career, but I do relate to the need for traditional male skills which many man don’t possess these days.

ange-nocturne · 2018-05-21T20:43:47+00:00

Interesting observation. As an educated woman I have been considering doing this myself for a while. It’s hard to find truly masculine men on my university campus. In general, most of the educated, modern men of today do not have Alpha qualities. I may need to delve into a different pool of prospective mates. The “rough and tumble” practical type of guy who is good with his hands has always been very attractive to me. Also manual labour and a high salary are not always mutually exclusive, especially within the current social climate. Just like how a university degree doesn’t guarantee you a good job anymore. There are many educated people who can’t find work and there are many people with hands-on jobs who make good money.

vanBeethovenLudwig · 2018-05-21T13:20:51+00:00

My gut tells me these women are dating down because they can't get one of the fewer higher paid academic guys. But I also think social skills are more important to women's attraction than men's, because women cope through talking more, whereas men cope through action more, which affects how each value relationships; and because there are lots of women who have regular flings or relationships with men who make less than them and have no financial intelligence, and what all these men seem to have is a love of being social, at the least with women, and enough sexual dominance so everything can "just happen" which is what most women like. So I think those two traits are more likely to be present in these guys that the academic women are dating down with; whereas I think some of the highly paid academic guys could be more likely to use more abstract thinking and be less social, which drives a lot of women crazy in a bad way because its against their general coping style. Pros and cons.

jm51 · 2018-05-21T17:14:33+00:00

Maybe they are marrying up?

bloobird08 · 2018-05-21T23:49:15+00:00

It is no surprise that women choose the masculine types who earn less because the alternative is a weak/fat beta who might make the same or even less (It seems there are many betas nowadays that don’t have enough money to fit the standard of a beta bux). I would say this is just an adaptation for modern times. Pre-internet, the beta men in all industries used to be fit, manly, and confident. Not so much anymore. Of course, this applies to women too. Women have gotten more fat/masculine post-internet, and men have gotten softer/feminine. I’ve noticed RP blames feminism for these gender shifts, which is valid, but I think the internet and the modern inactive/fast food lifestyle is also to blame for why the genders have become bastardized.

BooksAndCatsAnd · 2018-05-21T21:18:43+00:00

This is interesting to me, because it pokes directly at my particular situation... married in my early 20s to a mid 20s man, whom I adore and trust wholeheartedly. I’m a white collar breadwinner and while hubs has one more degree than I do as well as professional certifications, his industry alignment is blue collar. Being a corporate person at a desk would be his nightmare! Other people often treat me like I have married down, ignoring other aspects that make us work because they’re so shocked he’s not a white collar professional. Never mind that I love him as my protector and leader, never mind that we save so much money because he can fix our home/things/cars, never mind that he comes from a wonderful family with deep roots in his community, that he’s a great judge of character, that he calls me out, challenges me intellectually, and encourages me to improve myself, that he supports me so I can pursue my career and interests without forgoing his own dreams.... I have my dream life because of him, who gives a damn if he doesn’t have an office job? :P

I adore scientific studies but I think it’s easy to lose the forest for the trees on these types of issues due to their complexity. In today’s society, where in most major cities dual incomes are needed, marrying someone who makes less than you is not necessarily marrying down. It just means they have a different path - one piece of a puzzle. A lot of people forget that skilled blue collar folks make six figures too! And past that point, can you really say someone is inferior/superior, just because their chosen niche pays less or more? The whole thing just seems superficial and indicative of someone who is more interested in “keeping up with the Joneses” than the intrinsic value of the relationships in their life. Money isn’t everything y’all - my investment banker ex would have been a terrible husband!

imdar3ald3al · 2018-05-21T14:30:10+00:00

I'm hard pressed to believe they are truly happy, but yes. I've noticed the trend. I think most women still want a more educationally and financially successful than herself and will often times resent their lesser achieving partners but can definitely find dominant alpha males that behave way better than a lot of the Mr. Beta bucks guys out there.

I still believe a lot of these women end up miserable. Settling down goes against evolutionary biology. Only a properly redpilled woman can curve that instinct and be happy.

I think the most common narrative is these women waited until they got old to settle down and found themselves at a slight disadvantage toward getting higher achieving men so they made their standards more realistic to account for their own declining sexual market value.

HumanSockPuppet · 2018-05-21T15:02:46+00:00

Frame is a greater indicator of strength, dominance, and the will to overcome hardship than wealth.

In fact, frame precisely IS all of these things. It should comes as no surprise that a woman will more often fall for a seasoned law enforcement officer over a software engineer.

aussiedollface · 2018-05-21T23:02:47+00:00

Yes! Thankyou for this post, I totally agree. I’ve noticed this trend in my life too. I’m a physician and many ladies I work with were married/dating builders and other tradesmen. Very “strong” and manly types. I also noticed that men like that seemed to pursue me more as I moved upwards in my career! I suppose it’s a dynamic that works for some people. I personally prefer more traditionally “intellectual” types so I married my darling husband (lawyer, earns more than I do etc). x

alpha-zach · 2018-05-21T14:30:35+00:00

Statistically speaking when a woman makes more or even equal money with her man, the chances of adultery skyrocket. Not just for her, but him also.

Meadowfly · 2018-05-23T06:52:05+00:00

This is me :) I have an honours degree, my career is in STEM and my fiancé was paramedic and now he is in agriculture. I have a lot of respect for what he does. He is very practical, enduring, physically fit and has to think on the spot. I too have noticed this trend in a small handful of women I know where they gravitate towards men which have different forms of intelligence and ability other than that which is purely academic.

Yayayayayaya0101 · 2018-05-21T18:42:41+00:00

In my personal experience zero female doctors/lawyers/white collar educated women settle down with cops/personal trainers/auto mechanics, but hey, thats just me

blushdot · 2018-05-21T22:27:10+00:00

Unike many RPW, I am rather liberal politically but a social conservative in my own life and prefer traditional gender roles. I majored in English and was surrounded by some of the most liberal women (and men), given that gender studies is basically the only major more liberal than my own was - and English is basically gender studies. I also once lived in a very liberal area where the idea of being a hippie is basically standard practice, not a rebellious choice.

Essentially, I can speak on your observation quite well, as my family and peers are all about as horrifyingly liberal as you can expect.

I am also someone who is "career-minded" (I'm a teacher - does that even count?) and looking for a traditionally masculine man. Given where I currently live, I would need to "marry down" or "marry my equal."

So the first thing to realize is that the "liberal career-minded" woman who marries a masculine man can be divded into two basic categories:

Social Conservative: This woman may be religious or usually come from a traditional background herself. Think a catholic, hispanic, or immigrant woman.
Family-Minded Liberal: This woman is not socially conservative, but wants children. She is limited to men she can trust will stay in the marriage and promote a stronger familial atmosphere.

Social conservatives are probably going to marry other social conservatives. In a way, a lot of Appalachia is technically in this category. They promote progressive policies like welfare, but balk at identity politics of any variety.

However, social conservatives in Appalachia are very different from social conservatives in liberal areas, or for minorities. These social conservatives will be more accepting of identity politics, but not moral politics. An Appalachian social conservative is very against abortion and affirmative action. A liberal area conservative would never get an abortion themselves, but feels they should support pro-choice. However, the idea of "open marriages" is likely one of the biggest moral threats in their lives.

Social conservatives may be republicans due to the idea that liberalism is a growing threat on morality, or they may simply place more emphasis on tradition. These people tend to be surrounded by other social conservatives and probably are probably going to find a traditionally masculine man well enough.

Unfortunately, many social conservative women find themselves as single mothers if they do not secure a high-value man. This could be due to liberal policies which allow quite a bit of dependence on the government. It causes some men to have beta thinking, and women to place a higher value on their career than family. It's fine to care about your job - you should, if you have one. Unfortunately, while they have social conservative values, their economic ones are liberal, and this extends to the workplace.

But social conservative women can be quite happy if they find the right man. If. If. If.

Eventually, some social conservative women may find themselves not truly respecting gender roles and morality, or their husband doesn't respect gender roles and morality, and the relationship blows up in their faces.

The family-minded liberal is in a state of crisis.

They are a strigent liberal in every conceivable measure. Due to polarization they may not know conservatives or chosen to strike these people from their lives. But, they want children.

This is not really acceptable in liberal circles. I know from experience that young liberals not only do not want kids, they despise them and call them words like crotchfruit and parents as breeders. They also think marriage is a ridiculous institution, but strangely support gay marriage. Don't they hate marriage? Ugh. You see the hypocrisy.

It's this which causes most liberals who want children to eventually become social conservatives or complete conservatives. This is rare, though, since strong liberals tend to live in very liberal areas themselves are will likely never have this opportunity.

But if they did not become conservative, chances are these women went in a few paths: casual sex and lots of minimum-wage jobs or college.

The first is doomed in every conceivable way. Chances are they have dyed hair, tattoos, are overweight or too skinny from drugs, high on every conceivable drug, and an n-count so high I don't even think it could be measured. Probably bisexual or a lesbian too. She'll probably become a single mom like the social conservative woman, except she will never get married. She won't ever deign to sleep with a conservative.

The other family-minded liberal went to college and had the full liberal college experience. Similar to the previous liberal woman, but a bit more controlled. However, their focus is never on family and they never intend for it to be on family. This means more traditional men will stay clear (unless they are stunning beauties - and few look like stunning beauties). If they don't snag the perfect man in college, they never will... and they know it. If you know a liberal woman who wants a family - make sure they meet someone in college. It's their only chance, if they don't change.

There are few liberal men who want children and a traditional marriage - much fewer than women - and the only way to find them before they are snatched up themselves is to lock it down in college when everyone is together. You can find someone later, but the woman is likely to put off having children until she is in her mid-thirties, and many men who are college-educated make a good wage and can marry a much younger woman. The liberal man probably doesn't care to marry a social conservative or conservative woman, so the liberal woman isn't just competing with her own political class - she's competing with every young woman.

A man who goes to college is probably going to make more than the woman who goes to college. Probably. If they don't, it will probably fail for all the reasons we suspect.

But, back to the primary issue: liberals live in a bubble. Because their problem is that they will never look outside their liberal circles. And if they fail to find a man in college, the family-minded liberal woman will be left with two options:

Don't marry at all
Marry down

If they don't marry at all, hopefully they will adopt instead of going through the early childhood process (a stupid economic move on their part). However, most will have a one-night stand and trap a man, or go at it alone. Not a good idea. Especially since their liberal family may not be family-minded themselves, and all their friends will want nothing to do with them once they have kids. That woman will be ALONE from day one. The adopter will still be alone, but get brownie points. NOTE: Adopting a baby is basically the same thing, except for the brownie points. They really need to adopt an older child already of school age.

Alternatively, they may be in an open-marriage (gag) or in an uncertain state of commitment. Not good for children, and these relationships don't tend to last, in my opinion.

So, most family-minded liberals who don't find a man in college is going to marry down, like your post. Although in a better position than the drug-addled uneducated liberal woman, this is not a good position to be in. The liberal woman does not respect traditional gender roles - that is the whole point of their political stance.

So why are they "marrying down" to more masculine men?

The liberal man who wants children is a rare person, and she isn't going to find that man after college in most situations. Her only option without uprooting her career (which she won't do) is to look locally. Generally speaking, the available men will be low-wage liberals or low-wage conservatives. Perhaps, if she is "lucky" she will marry a tradesperson.

The low-wage/tradesman liberal marriage will fail for all the expected reasons. Primarily because the low-wage liberal man in a traditionally masucline job is going to want equality in the household. Frankly speaking, a firefigher is exhausted after work. Sure, he can mow the lawn on the weekends - that's exhausting too, but not a frequent task - but spending another hour or two on domestic labor is not really fair when his wife had a white-collar job where she got to sit down all day. Sure, she is exhausted too, but not physically exhausted.

But that liberal woman wants a 50/50 split. It's not 50/50 though. Eventually the marriage fails, because it was never equal to begin with. It was all about what SHE wanted. She was the captain of the ship, and she can't sail.

The low-wage conservative marriage tradesman liberal marriage will fail for the same reasons, however they will be an undercurrent of hostility. Fundamentally, this couple probably only agrees on the children. They may have come to terms with religious compromise in the beginning, but other values are much harder to hash out with that kind of polarity. You cannot have a marriage in which you do not respect your spouse, and liberal women, to be completely honest, probably hate their husband in your scenario. She sees her marriage as an inferior option, even though it was the only option she left herself.

To put it simply:

A liberal/conservative marriage will never succeed. Probably only a language barrier could save it.
A liberal/liberal marriage probably won't succeed unless the man is actually a beta, since there will be no true domestic diligence on any part of the couple.
A social conservative/liberal may succeed, but the social conservative woman really needs to marry up, or there is a high risk of it failing.
A social conservative/conservative marriage will probably succeed if the man is conservative.
A conservative/conservative marriage has the strongest change of succeeding. But we already knew this.

ReddJive · 2018-05-24T13:49:52+00:00

By traditionally masculine qualities I mean that these men may not have as high of a salary or even the same level of education, but he has physical strength, street smarts, hands-on skills, social skills, athletic ability, a sense of protection. Typically these men can be found in jobs of law enforcement, military, emergency services, aviation, vocational trades or sports/fitness, essentially jobs that are not so academic but require a different set of skills.

Because of modern society. By and large there are few careers that require the physical capabilities of men. Is this bad? I don't know but where men fail is they don't seek out skills, hobbies, nor activities that allow them to build these masculine traits. Hence the attractiveness of the professions descried.

Desk jobs, office work anyone can do it. Requires nothing more then a mind and hands. So a beta man comes home thinking he worked hard. Dresses in his baggy basketball shorts and cool T-shirt from college cracks a beer and chills. While is his wife/LTR comes home, dresses in another work out fit, maybe too look good for him, but she sets out on her second work day.

Alphas look to go beyond and they look to find areas in which their masculinity adds value. Being a volunteer firefighter, paramedic, police officer....these are things and doable.

Conversely women should be seeking to build community after the workday is done. Men seek value. Women seek community. She does this by building a comfortable, relaxing home. By being the social hub the person and place others come to for advice, community, and fun.

I have also noticed with these more traditionally masculine men, they could care less about women's intelligence and appreciate her femininity, domesticity and companionship.

Here's a dynamic I have noticed. In my experience it is because there is a need for a woman to be right. To be feel like she has agency in all things, much like a man. Male qualities? Yes, but not in the sense that she be as strong, but that she can be independent like a man can be. I would argue that men are not so much independent as much as aloof. The trait men look for is self sufficient. Can you? yes. Do you need to? no.

In truth men don't want independent women. Why would I? Being independent means that you don't need nor want me. Then I am likely to move on and find someone else that is willing to add value to my life in more then just one area. I also don't want to argue and fight over a simple opinion. If I am in a relationship with you odds are I have accepted your view point and it doesn't matter as far as being an obstacle to being with you. I expect us to have a civil discussion over the differences. Ego often gets the way and demands we be right. When really we are missing an opportunity to learn a new view point, and new perspective, and maybe learn something.

I will know when my girl is right. What I want is her to be agreeable and open to discussion. As a man I have uphill battles to face every day. Other than the occasion shit test, comfort test, I do not expect to fight my girl. if I have to do that then I am going to find someone else.

You can be right all you want, then it won't be my problem any more.

lSquaredD1 · 2018-05-22T00:39:17+00:00

have postgraduate degrees, working in white collar jobs with middle to upper middle class salaries,

I check all of these boxes -- PhD in Oncology, worked for Genentech and commanded a standard salary for that position in Silicon Valley. There are only so many men more accomplished than I.

My husband isn't as accomplished in some ways (I think his GRE score was lower than mine, and he never took the SAT), and more in others (he was a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley, did aircraft maintenance for NATO in Belgium for military service, hob nobs with members of Parliament, etc.)

The key point here is that we need to view accomplishment as multi-dimensional; e.g. more than the number of digits in the paycheck he brings home. At present, we're both taking time off and living off (mostly his) savings and dispensations from being a partner at the fund for 4 years or so to raise our daughter.

Title	Modern women choosing traditional masculinity
Author	vanBeethovenLudwig
Upvotes	91
Comments	65
Date	May 21, 2018 12:21 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	/r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/modern-women-choosing-traditional-masculinity.2851 https://theredarchive.com/post/2851
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/8l0e48/modern_women_choosing_traditional_masculinity/