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Opinions on rape/misogyny

November 16, 2016

I was just reading a Reddit news article post about a British woman claiming rape because she was gangraped by two British men in a hotel in Dubai) that's all the details regarding the circumstances).

My first thought was "That woman shouldn't have put herself in a situation to be raped." My assumption (of course could be false because there was not any additional information regarding the rape) was that she and the men were most likely out clubbing) with my background knowledge of alcohol only being sold in luxury hotels in Dubai and the extravagant holidays Western expats tend to take there, having been myself) and she might have willingly went into the hotel room with them then activities escalated out of her control, then she claims rape.

So I wanted to ask - what are your RPW thoughts on rape? I am not talking about a "real" rape (violent attacker). I'm talking about situations where feminists claim rape because they were drunk and consent was hazy because of alcohol or other circumstances. Do you ever blame the men? Or do you think the woman put herself in a situation to be easily accessible and manipulated and she should be more cautious in her choice of activities? (where she goes, how much she has the drink, etc).

Please note that this post is not about the specific rape itself but rather general opinions.

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Post Information
Title Opinions on rape/misogyny
Author vanBeethovenLudwig
Upvotes 3
Comments 53
Date November 16, 2016 6:55 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link
Original Link
Red Pill terms in post

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Legitimate cases notwithstanding, I think every woman has the responsibility to conduct herself in a manner that keeps her safe. Drinking to excess, going off with men you barely know, being provocative, all these things put her in a situation to be taken advantage of. Of course cases like Brock Turner, I blame the guy, but waking up the next day with buyer's remorse, that's your own fault. I also think women who make false allegations should be put in jail.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor12 points13 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

There was an AMA thread asking sex offenders about their story. The majority of them had relations with an underage girl that lied about her age, and the false knowledge led the girl to literally ruin their lives.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

See, stuff like that pisses me off. That guy is not a predator.

[–]Willow-girl3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Depends on whether the girl he was screwing is 13 or 17. If she's 13, he damned well ought to be able to figure out that she's underage, no matter what she says.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lol well 13, you'd think you'd be able to tell, but saying you're 18 when you're 16 or 17? That gets hard to tell. If you're at a bar, don't you just assume everyone is at least 21? I do. Why would you bother to check?

[–]Willow-girl-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I was 14 I was screwing around with older guys ... pretty sure they knew I wasn't 18 although they pretended to believe my lie as it was in their favor to do so, lol.

[–]dottywine1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Some men cannot tell a 13 year old from a 17 year old. It depends on the girl, her maturity, how she presents herself, and that man's perception of young women.

[–]Willow-girl1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Some men are idiots, then, if they can't tell an eighth-grader from a high school senior!

[–]dottywine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I'd agree with this, as well!

[–]asteadyheart8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Drinking in excess

This is often one I heard or read in court transcripts. "She must have drunk too much" is typically what the defense likes to say in response to a rape claim.

But back in my undergraduate studies, my college town had an outbreak of drinks being spiked by drugs. My roommate in my junior year, a beautiful exchange student from Spain, came back after just being gone one or two hours with her friends. She was slurring, falling over, I asked how many drinks she had and they said she didn't even finish one. That was one of the scariest nights of my life, as I remember feeling her pulse and trying to get her to respond to me. The next morning, she had no memory and was just very groggy and thirsty.

Soon, I had other friends telling similar stories that they've witnessed. Fliers went up in our dorms, saying to watch your drink, don't let someone else buy it for you, just hold onto it. But my roommate bought her own drink, didn't let anyone else take it, held onto it the entire time. How did her drink get spiked? After a few arrests, it seemed it was most likely the bartender who was slipped some money in exchange for putting something in her drink.

So how safe can we be? Should we just not go out, or should we just not drink at all? What manner is safe, anymore? I actually ended up giving a self-defense lesson to another roommate (the next year) and her sorority sisters, when a man eluding campus police and assaulting women as they would walk from the library back to their dorms. They started going in pairs, carrying pepper spray, a whistle. Our school created a campus escort program.

When does it end? I absolutely agree with you that women, as well as men, should be mindful of their situation. They should not do things that would put their life and limb in danger and at risk, and then blame others if they are injured. But what do we do when a group of very sick individuals have obviously changed the rules of the game? When are we just living our lives and when are we putting ourselves in a dangerous situation? I don't know what the line is anymore, and that is what scares me.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

When does it end?

It ends when you completely avoid the whole bar scene. Attending a bar isn't a problem right of passage nor is it necessary for a healthy person.

Bars have bouncers. Every think about that? Why do bars have bouncers? Do grocery stores have bouncers? Do clothing stores have bouncers? Even banks don't have bouncers.

Bars aren't safe spaces. They're spaces filled with humanity at its worst. When entering a bar, you're entering a room with a bunch of strangers, half intoxicated, sexually charged, dim lighting and sometimes noise to boot. Sounds like a real dangerous cocktail to me.

Because it is a dangerous cocktail. How many crime scenes take place it, near, around, on the way into or out of a bar?

Bars are far from being barometers of reality or society

[–]asteadyheart3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree. Bars are not a place I would consider safe. I don't drink and I don't really think drinking, for anyone, is a good idea. The idea of ingesting a toxin to purposefully alter your mind and perception sounds like a disaster, whether in a bar or in your home.

But, you can easily change "bouncers" to "security guards." All of those places have security for when someone starts acting out, behaving belligerently, and threatening the safety of others. Just different barometers of what that might be, from bar to bank.

I think my main point, which I feel is lost in this argument, is how did we get to the point where women need to take so many extra precautions. Men are more inclined to be aggressive, yes. Men are more likely to exert themselves physically, yes. But how did that turn into, "Men are more likely to assault and harm other people"? I think is a great discredit to the the majority of men to just accept and go, "oh yeah, boys will be boys!" when a man assaults, hurts, or rapes another person.

On TRP the men there are incredibly focused on protecting themselves financially, get a pre-nup, get a paternity test, etc. But what if they had to start thinking like, "You should get extra locks on your door" or "you should keep pepper spray" or "when you get dropped off by a cab, make sure you don't do it at your actual front door because they would know where you lived."

That is my only point as to the issue of rape or misogyny. In no way am I sitting here and saying that bars are a safe place or should be a safe place. I'm sitting here and wondering how did a certain subpopulation of men start thinking, "drugging a person is a good idea." Because I don't know how on earth such a leap can be made.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know what your point is. I think your thinking is slightly off the mark. I security at the mall isn't the same as a bouncer at a bar for several reasons.

And crime scenes. Let's not forget those.

If you leave a wad of cash on your dashboard, don't be surprised to find your car window smashed in when you return in the morning. If you dress in provocative clothing, act in a separate seductive manner, drink and hang out in a bar, what results do you expect?

In both cases, the criminal is still a criminal. But just because the criminal is a criminal, doesn't mean that the victim (in these cases) isn't an idiot.

"Men" don't do these things. Some men take advantage of shady opportunity just like some women do the same with regards to opportunity that's available to them. Neither is a reflection on society as a whole. It is a reflection on the segment of society known as the bar scene, but it doesn't reflect on all of society.

There's nothing wrong with consuming alcohol. Just stay away free from unknown phone personalities and strange environments while doing so.

[–]Bad_advice_for_free7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Poisoned drinks fall under the category of "real rape" (violent attacker). No grey area there. I guess one could discuss if women should go drinking at bars alone.

[–]asteadyheart3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, it clearly is a "real rape", but yes, the real issue is not even drinking in bars alone. This happens in groups, with your friends. The question for me, at this point in my life, is should we even go drinking out in public? Let's say you were drugged, but avoided being raped thanks to your friends, I'm sure the drugging itself was distressing and life-threatening enough.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If they 'should' go out drinking in bars alone is a matter of values and morals. But that they 'can' do it safely if they choose to is a matter of the law in a free society. No grey area there.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I was single, I would not get so drunk that I couldn't protect myself. It was a physical feeling and when I hit that limit I would stop. I also never put my drink down never even let my best friend hold it for me while I was in the ladies' room because how do I know she didn't put it down.

But that was to protect myself against the men who would try to take advantage. I was never the girl who put myself there just to pay victim. We are talking about two completely different subjects.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think it's very sad that feminism and SJWs have made necessary the term "real rape."

With all of the false allegations and unclear situations that could have been avoided, and especially when they claim catcalling and whistling as rape, it diminishes and belittles the situations of actual rape victims. Speaking for myself, if I were a rape victim, I would wish that I was only whistled at.

Also, it is so hypocritical that feminsts want to be empowered with control over their own bodies but as soon as it comes to taking reasonable measures for protecting their own bodies, it's suddenly the men's responsibility to just not rape. They want all of the fun and privileges with none of the responsibility or consequences

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Very good point.

A very close friend of my wife was brutally raped by a burglar I with her newborn at her side... That's rape. Having buyers remorse or even being cancelled is not rape.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What a terrible thing to have happened! Saying that catcalling or a man looking at you is rape is completely disrespectful to your wife's friend and other women who have experienced similar situations. It is beyond my comprehension and it breaks my heart how feminists say such things.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's very sad that feminism and SJWs have made necessary the term "real rape."

Whole heartedly agree.

[–]mwait2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post... had to do a double-take when I saw your age!

[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 13 points14 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It's a legitimate question, but I don't think an example from Dubai where the woman is automatically presumed guilty is the best starting point for discussion about Western views on the topic.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I am not asking opinions on the specific rape above, it was just the topic that got me thinking, but perhaps I should delete the original inspiration to make it less confusing?

[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Probably a good idea, we're comparing apples and electricity with this example.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I edited but not sure if it helped, haha, opinions welcome!

[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well... on with the discussion then.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

With any crime, such as murder/robbery, the fact that a crime was committed is not in question, but rather who-did-it. With sexual relations, on the other hand, the parties involved are known, but the question is was a crime committed. From the information presented there is no way to determine if a crime was committed or not. However, the opening sentence does presume a crime, "... claiming rape because she was gangraped by two men..." by using circular logic.

You either seduce (i.e. consent given) or pay for a persons companionship. If there is no consent, then it's a crime. It's incumbent on the person claiming a crime to prove that consent was not given, because of a presumption of innocence on the other party involved.

[–]electrokiwi13 points14 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

So I'm seeing people posting as if rape of a drunk person is not "real rape" and I think it's pretty misguided. Rape is still a crime and the person that robs you while you're walking home alone at night is still a criminal, even if you could have gone a different way. The guilt that rape survivors feel in situations where they're judged as having been responsible for their rape can be really traumatizing, and I think more blame should be placed on the rapist. Oftentimes these guys will ply girls with drinks, pressure them, and keep sober themselves, in a way that's clearly predatory. A girl may not have been taught about these methods being used, as is the case with many young girls going to college for the first time, which is when they are statistically most vulnerable. We should teach women to be wary of situations where they are taken advantage of, but the only not "real" rape is that where the person had the mental ability to say yes and then lied about it after.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

The problem I have with the drunk girls is, where is the proof that they didn't consent at the time? Maybe she was so drunk she didn't give a sh** what he looked like or who he was. How do we know?

Why is it on the guy to try and judge for himself what is "too drunk"? I mean obviously if the girl is passed out, as was the case with Brock Turner, then that's too drunk. But is not being able to operate a car legally too drunk to consent? Is someone having shiny eyes or slurring too drunk? Where's the line? That great area is what causes a lot of problems.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor6 points7 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

To add to your point - if a woman can be too drunk and therefore unable to decide yes or no, same should apply to a man. If you're past a certain point of drunkenness, you can't make decisions, can't be responsible for anything you do and therefore shouldn't be responsible for crimes you commit.

Now of course, that would need to be determined and a quantified. How drunk is too drunk. But however that is determined, it should work equally for men and women.

[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're past a certain point of drunkenness, you can't make decisions, can't be responsible for anything you do and therefore shouldn't be responsible for crimes you commit.

This is a poor argument. The limits and boundaries of intoxication as a legal defense are very unambiguous in criminal law and legal precedent. Rape is not a special case where this is concerned.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The limits and boundaries of intoxication as a legal defense are very unambiguous in criminal law and legal precedent.

That isn't the point. I don't know how the law does and down't hold people accountable for their actions committed during various states of drunkenness. My point is that

  • There should be an actual definition. Up to point X of drunkenness, a person is responsible, past that point, they're as good as unconscious and therefore not liable for whatever they do.

  • Wherever that line is actually drawn, it should apply equally to men and women.

Rape is not a special case where this is concerned.

I agree. Same should apply to any crime or offense committed.

[–]Capn_Underpants2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

and yet if you get behind a car, being drunk is no excuse, for the man OR the woman.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My point is that there shouldn't be a double standard with regards to responsibility while drunk.

If you're THAT drunk, you wouldn't be able to get behind the wheel of a car anyway. You wouldn't know what you're doing and what's going on. In this case, there's room to argue that a person is not responsible for the their actions. But if that's the law, it should apply equally to men and women. I'm not saying it should be the law though.

[–]electrokiwi5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The difference here is getting raped isn't a crime. Raping someone is. One may involve some naive choices, but usually it is a misconception that women who are dressed provocatively or are leading men on are raped. Rapists don't care about these things, and mostly just go for someone who is alone and seems trusting. If you commit a crime while drunk you are still responsible for that crime and that is far worse than making the mistake of being alone and trusting the wrong person, which I'm sure we have all done at some point to varying extents

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Getting raped isn't a crime but do you think the average guy gets drunk and goes out and intentionally rapes a girl? No. If two ppl are shit faced and don't remember what happened the night before, both made a mistake. Maybe he raped her, maybe she said "let's get it on,". Who's to say? Why do we add a society automatically believe one over the other?

[–]electrokiwi4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not talking about the average guy. If two people are equally drunk, it's a different thing entirely. there are studies that show rape is committed by a small percentage of creeps who do it more than once. I'm lazy to link them, because I'm traveling, but there are men who use the grey area over and over opposed to having an awkward semi regretful night. We don't really have a society where we believe one over the other, because while an accusation can be damaging to a man's reputation, it's damn near impossible to convict for rape in most situations. The solution to this is community awareness. I think girls should be able to go to parties and to drink a little, and should stay in groups, (whether it's a smart sexual strategy to party or not) and even if they meet a guy, their friends should keep an eye out to make sure the behavior is reciprocal, and coherent. I think we should tell people if you see a much more sober seeming person taking another person who is less sober away to a room or something with what seems like sexual intent, it's okay to check in, by finding that person's friends. Intuition is a powerful thing, and if we sense something is not right, I see nothing wrong with stepping in before one or two people's lives are ruined.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You just blew my mind! What an excellent argument!

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]electrokiwi3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The grey area is complicated, but I think if a person isn't really aware of their surroundings, is puking, can't hold themselves up, and is generally way past having some silly fun drunk, they probably can't consent. If the act of sex is being performed by the dude onto a drunk girl's body and she's not really mentally present or participating, I think it's on the guy, and I think you have to be a really creepy kind of guy to ignore that difference. I do think guys shouldn't risk having sex with girls who are obviously drunk, slurred speech and all, for their own safety because they can be accused later.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do think guys shouldn't risk having sex with girls who are obviously drunk

I absolutely agree. It's not worth the risk.

[–]Capn_Underpants0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Assuming the guy is drunk, by that argument, the guy has just been raped.

[–]electrokiwi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, guys in the same situation can be raped. But let's be real, overall biologically guys are more aggressive, and therefore more likely to rape, just like they're more likely to commit any violent crime. It's just biological fact.

Edit: to clarify, women do commit crimes, but usually do so passively. They are more likely to abuse with mind games, or poison someone, than directly physically impose themselves on another person.

[–]Lizziloo873 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't like rape claims that are based of being drunk. I've been drunk during my younger party years and slept around (happily married now and obviously don't do that anymore) I would have never thought that regret=rape. It just doesn't. However, if I said no to something (let's say we were doing vaginal stuff) and the guy wants butt stuff, then even if I said no and he goes in anyway...that is rape. Rape is forced sex. Not regretful sex.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the most frustrating things about all this nonsense is the notion that one person is entirely responsible for everything that happens.

This is sheer lunacy.

Every person is 100% responsible for whatever they chose to do. This applies to the rapee as much as it applies to the rapist.

A man who forces himself onto a woman is responsible for his actions. The woman who makes herself vulnerable to being taken advantage of, leads a guy on only to pull away or other such "brilliant" moves is responsible for putting herself in harms way. Just because he's responsible for what I he did, doesn't mean she isn't responsible sible for her role.

Personal responsibility of is an old fashioned value which needs to become popular again.

[–]Spazzy192 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm rather torn on the issue because I do feel women should be able to wear what they want or go where they please without being assaulted. Note, I do not consider cat calling "rape" and would roll my eyes at a woman complaining about it after getting dolled up. It's to be expected at that point.

However, like some others have said, a woman has a responsibility to ensure her own safety. My friend was raped by guys she knew in the military and thought she trusted. She is definitely not one to be all girly and worked the mechanic shop in the Army. She has a 14 yr old daughter from that experience.

But, going out alone to places seeking that attention is risky. There's a YouTube cartoon video that came out after a fairly recent CA rape that made headlines where a girl passed out outside and this kid went to town on her. Even if she may have said yes before (and who knows if she actually did) no one should have sex with an unconscious person. The YouTube video compares consent about sex with asking for a cup of tea. It's sadly humorous, but very accurate IMO. You can just search "consent tea" and it'll come up.

[–]Willow-girl1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's a real shame that many parents don't warn their daughters of the danger of drinking or drugging around men who might take advantage of them. I guess parents assume that "My daughter would never do that!", and remain in denial, not discussing the possible ramifications, which puts their girls in danger. A shame.

[–]Capn_Underpants1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If a woman drinks and drives a car, she's a 'horrible person' ...if a woman drinks and has 'regretful sex', she gets to call it 'rape' if she wishes.

However, is this what happened here ?

[–]Mentathiel1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think in most situations both are to blame. Women are to blame for not taking care of their own safety and men are to blame for violating it.

For violent back alley kind of crime, it's completely the man's fault.

For when judgment-impairing substances are involved, it depends. If a woman has consented, regardless of how impaired her judgment was, she has consented. I mean, of course that doesn't apply for when she didn't consume these substances willingly, although she should also make sure not to allow people to drug her discretely. However, if she's passed out or unable to take action otherwise, then both are to blame again, her for putting herself in that situation and him for violating her.

As for minors, I'm not sure what to say. In my country, it's legal to gave sex from 14 years on, regardless of the age of the other person. I don't see that as completely healthy in some circumstances, but I also see no reason why an 18yo sleeping with a consenting 15yo should be seen as a predator. It's a difficult question, because it has to juggle cultural morality and benefits and problems young people get from this. On one hand, sexual exploration is important, it's a bonding experience that maintains relationships, but on the other hand young people often lack self-control, self-respect, responsibility and maturity that should go into such a choice. Age gaps are also questionable.

Due process and all always applying. You should, of course, offer support to your friends who claim to have gone through such a thing regardless of proof (well, if they're trustworthy, but they should be if they're your friends), but that doesn't mean that anything of that sort is acceptable on legislative level.

Similar applies to male victims as well.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me, drunk sex/consent is analgous to drunk driving. It's about as ridiculous to place blame on the sexual partner as it is to blame the bartender. Where I lived previously, a drunk driver actually sued her bartender after getting into an accident. The only thing that saved the bartender was a video clip that clearly showed "a reasonable person" could not tell the woman was drunk.

[–]LadyLumen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Uh...that's a real fuzzy line.

[–]dottywine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I take it seriously. When you're drunk, it is incredibly easy to make stupid decisions that will put you in a vulnerable position. Just like I would blame anyone for taking advantage of a vulnerable person. You don't tell a kid who's been molested "You shouldn't have let that person take you to the restroom". Sure, you'll teach the kid about it so that it never happens again but largely, you're blaming the offender. It doesn't matter what stupid decision was made, someone took advantage of the situation and caused harm. That's wrong period.

And I think its important to note in here--

There's a difference between having buyer's remorse and "being provocative, hanging out with guys you barely know and putting yourself in a situation to be taken advantage of". I don't get... I don't understand how some of y'all are acting like they're the exact same thing...

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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