~ archived since 2018 ~

Policy Discussion on "Just Leave Him".

September 22, 2020

When we announced a rule saying "Just leave him" is not to be put forth as the first option, we got, needless to say, a lot of feedback.

Some of it was very positive: "Yes! I am so sick of twenty-year old girls coming in here and telling married women to leave their husbands over an imagined slight!"

Some of it was rather concerned: "Yes, I see the problem, but some relationships are clearly dangerous or abusive. Are we really trying to keep those together?"

Some of it was downright autistic: "OMGWTFBBQ! You are trying to trap women with the first dude they date even if it's toxic!"

Some of it had philosophical concerns: "Twenty-year old girls are giving relationship advice because there aren't enough active mods and ECs to provide better guidance."

Well, the mod team has talked it over, read all the comments, discussed concerns, and made some decisions. Here's what our goals are for the group are, in this matter:

  1. We need to put a stop to low-experience, low-personal-investment commenters giving advice to the tune of "Just leave him! You are a queen and deserve better!".

  2. We need to make a clear distinction between "this is your committed long term relationship, fix it instead of abandoning it", and "hey, this dude you went on two dates with is showing clear red flags... look for someone else".

  3. We need to recognize and call out situations where trying to "fix" the relationship would put someone in severe danger (usually physical, but sometimes emotional or legal, too), and advise those women to seek self-protection, rather than marital bliss.

  4. We need to be able to provide more experienced guidance so that RPW's values can be made clear to new readers.

So here's what we are going to do:

  1. The rule will be "Don't advise abandonment of an LTR before trying other options, unless someone is in danger".

  2. This will only apply to something that's really a serious commitment, not a vetting process. Use your common sense. We will not be "punishing" users for grey area stuff, but those who try to make RPW into /r/relationship_advice will be shown the door.

  3. We will compile, and take additional suggestions for, a list of constitutes "danger". It will include things like violence and long term unilateral emotional abuse. It will not include things like "said something mean once". This will go on the sidebar, and we will encourage anyone who fears for someone else's safety to link to it.

  4. Yes, we are undermodded. We have asked someone new to join the mod team, and she has graciously accepted. Her mod account should show up some time in the next week. She will be focusing on "troll control", so that others can type words more, and click buttons less.

Thanks for your patience. We realize that your trust is not automatic, but we also have marriages, jobs, friends, children, and lives of our own, and sometimes we have little time to spare, and a great deal of difficulty attracting appropriate people to do some of the tedious and often thankless work of sustaining a not just female, but feminine space in a culture increasingly hostile to femininity.

We realize that some people need heavy moderation, but there is also a core community that simply needs to be left alone to use their common sense, and protected from trolls so that their voices do not get drowned out.

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Post Information
Title Policy Discussion on "Just Leave Him".
Author CrazyHorseInvincible
Upvotes 149
Comments 34
Date September 22, 2020 3:05 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
Archive Link
Original Link
Red Pill terms in post

[–]MissOrion2445 points46 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you guys for taking the feedback into account and coming up with a reasonable way forward!

I’m fairly new to this sub, but it’s quickly become one of my favorites, and I hope it continues to be a great space. Some of the most quality and thoughtful discussion I’ve seen on Reddit has been here, and it’s nice to have a place to share thoughts that are important to me that would be unwelcome elsewhere.

Even it if has been undermodded, the genuine contributors seem to have a pretty good bs meter for trolls as well as hold themselves to a certain level of quality in their contributions. That self accountability has been infectious to me, and has been a good influence on my life (here and irl).

[–]Iluvalmonds8311 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for listening and defining the rule in respect to the nuances.

[–]ThorsdaySaturnday12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for addressing this, I’m tired of reading posts that should have been posted in r/relationship_advice

[–]blindtigerolympics24 points25 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here for all of it but the word “autistic” isn’t fitting with this statement. More suitable word choice needed.

[–]lemon_lips28 points29 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]asmallbonsaitree24 points25 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

What does “downright autistic” mean?

[–][deleted]  (6 children) | Copy Link


[–]GTJ882 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Virtue signalling smh, I found it pretty fucking funny, as did my autistic friend, he has aspergers.

[–]childfromthesun1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe your "autistic friend" doesn't speak for all autistic people. Coming from a highly educated woman with asbergers I personally found it to be tactless and hurtful.

[–]GTJ880 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well good for you, never said he spoke for all autistic people, and It's not my fault you found it tactless and hurtful, you did that yourself.

It's a joke not a dick, don't take it so hard...

[–]childfromthesun0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

When your say that your "autistic friend" thought it was funny you are basically saying that it should be excused on his word. You think he speaks for all of of us. It would be the equivalent of saying "oh well my black friend isn't offended by the N word. What's the big deal? Why are all these black people offended when I say it?"

And your joke isn't funny if you're the only one laughing.

And I don't honestly believe you have a friend with asbergers that said that and meant it I think you just made that up.

[–]GTJ880 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well his name is rafael and he is a childhood friend of mine, so believe what you will.

also learn to read "never said he spoke for all autistic people".

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

tone policing a free thought place......super

[–]strawberrybananaemma29 points30 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you mind changing autistic to something else? Maybe something like ridiculous instead please.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is in response to this comment.

As someone who was personally coached by u/Whisper for an entire year under a different username, is heading towards marriage with the man he helped me with, and was even an EC under that now-deleted account, I feel obligated to say I did attempt to pay it forward and still do. I'm still very active in the TRP community. Unfortunately as someone who also left an abusive marriage before coming to RPW, rules and sentiment similar to this among other actions made by the mod team are why I have all but completely halted my activity on reddit and RPW in particular.

Last I looked at the sidebar, this subreddit placed so much importance on vetting with very little help on actually doing so or putting meaningful content that isn't confusing on the sidebar and via this new rule, is now promoting the idea that women who have made poor vetting choices should stay in a potentially dangerous relationship. By all means prevent people from pointing out they suspect a poster's captain is drunk beyond repair. I'm comfortable sleeping at night knowing I didn't tell a woman to stay with her husband even though he's choking her. That was an actual post I read here. Every time I stumble into RPW, I regret my decision to "pay it forward elsewhere" less and less.

It's as if 20 year old women are expected to be less autistic than most of the 20 year old men who stumble through TRP thinking half the rules don't apply to them, except here, the 20 year olds get away with everything from virtue signaling to giving shitty advice, promoting autistic vetting decisions, thinking fitness and most anything else doesn't apply to them, and want to play princess..... To add insult to injury, when ECs and well-respected members with stars try to quell that, we are dismissed as combative or even accused of circlejerking when trying to move the needle in a more productive direction.

A drunk captain is no captain worth submitting to, yet there has been barely any official talk about figuring out whether he's drunk. TRP has several articles, an escalation system, and multiple posts about plating, FWBs, and LTRs, with various qualifiers and well-thought-out methods to identify red flags. It's been made pretty clear that TRP was "the first dog" who was taken to puppy classes, given a solid foundation, and taught how to behave while the fresh new owners were excited about the adventure of having a new puppy. Then they got puppy #2 and thought they could forgo the puppy classes and clicker training. Now they blame the dog for jumping up on people at the front door.

Judging by the original post on this matter combined with the amendment given, like other solutions to issues that I've historically witnessed in this place, this rule is a band-aid being slapped on without any forethought to the root cause of such issues or the consequences of proposing such a rule, and maybe that type of decision-making is counterproductive to establishing a decent community. In other words, congrats. You just used a squirt bottle on dog #2, and while that might put a small damper on your more obvious problem, the dog wasn't desensitized to the excitement of a new visitor and still doesn't understand to not jump up on people. It only now understands to expect to be squirted with a squirt bottle if it gets excited, and may possibly hear yelling, which is all the more exciting when you're a dog who was never taught to know any better. I'm not trying to be abrasive just for the sake of being abrasive. I wouldn't have spoken up if I didn't give a shit, but if you want to know why I and other ECs I've spoken with have ditched, pushing past the cognitive dissonance used to dismiss us as being selfish without looking at what's going on here might be a start. Otherwise, you're just going to be repeatedly replacing the battery when in reality, the alternator went bad.

[–]pandora_box-15 points16 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for this clarification!

May I suggest that the “vetting” period be defined as relationships that are pre-marriage / pre cohabitation or cohabitating less than 1 year (but pre-marriage). If he hasn’t shown you he’s committed, then it makes sense to leave when there are red flags. Marriages or if there are kids, it makes sense to attempt to save at all costs. Sometimes red flags don’t show up until years into a relationship (especially if the man is a covert narcissist). A clearly defined vetting period would help.

I’m happily married & considered everything in the 3 years of dating until I said “I do” to be the vetting period for my husband. I know some people are content to be in non marital LTR and thus not consider all dating to be vetting.

[–]jonmarli5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There's so so many women posting here who are a year or two into garbage LTRs, often long distance with a thousand red flags. Every once in a while they're freshly married after dating for like five months. They are currently vetting or failed vetting and may very well be better off moving on. There's already selection bias in many of these participants. They're posting here because the writing is on the wall. They ask "should I stay? Can this last?" not "how do I fix this?". It isn't at all the same as the concerns of a mature married woman, and honestly I don't see too many mature married women asking for advice here.

I'm all for brainstorming how to make a relationship work, but if the poster is asking "hey, is this a red flag? Is this a major incompatibility?" And it is, we should be all means be telling them. You're absolutely right that breakups are a healthy part of the vetting process.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've seen a lot of experienced women who write nuanced guidance that explains why a relationship isn't working / the guy isn't right. Those aren't the problem.

The problem are the outrage comments that boil down to: "you deserve better, I would never stand for this, ditch this loser". The core advice may be the same "leave him" but one gives the OP a reasonable take away to use in further vetting and the other makes the commenter let out her own feelings.

Also we help ourselves by giving more measured and thoughtful advice. I don't want RPW to turn into yet another venue for outrage porn. It doesn't make my life better to have that constant up and down of emotions and I don't think I'm unique in this. What we say and think will come out in other areas of life. If I spend my days getting worked up at the bad bad men that these young women are dating, I cannot predict what subtle ways it comes out on my family. Advice should come from a calm and mature place rather than firing off "leave him grrrrl" because the OP's emotional perspective is bleeding over.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about red flags and incompatibilities. It means we should be sure we are giving an OP all the relevant information, sans our own emotional biases, to make her own life decisions.

[–]jonmarli2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you about how important it is to temper our own emotional responses to what we read here. Outrage porn is not a good use of my emotional energy either. I agree with everything you're saying here, actually. I'm okay with a ban on emotional, oversimplified and bad advice. It just seems like a hard rule to enforce, and I hope it doesn't have unintended consequences.

[–]LuckyLittleStarModerator | Lil'Star[M] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

An interesting idea. Defining an LTR can be tricky, so using a guideline of LTR="Marriage or Cohabitation" is an interesting rule, and has some value. I think that might be a good starting point with the caveat of "use some common sense as well".

[–]RubyWooToo3 Stars4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

More often than not, the reason someone comes on the Internet for relationship advice is because they’ve already exhausted other options and everyone they know in real life is sick of listening to them bitch about the same shit over and over again.

So while I agree that people who post should put more time and effort into a post rather than “just leave him!”, it’s a complete waste of time to both commentators and OPs to try to make a turd smell like a rose.

Lastly, making “imminent danger” the standard for advising someone to leave is pathetic and setting the bar so low that not even Jacques Cousteau could find it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

unless someone is in danger

This was my primary concern! Thank you ladies so much for being safe and clarifying the rule.

[–]IcarusKiki2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

sounds good! Happy that y’all clarified the rules a bit.

[–]teaandtalk5 Stars2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like a good decision.

[–]sinkmyteethin9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm a guy and was subscribed to INTJ until this exact thing happened. 20yo giving advice to 40yos that made no sense in my eyes. My suggestion was to have OPs have a tag with their age. It's easier for the community as well to judge the type of advice they would give a teenager or a 30yo.

I'm saying this because i see career advice being requested here and that can be even 30yo women.

They didn't implement it, nor sure if it too tricky from a technical pov (I suspect not) or from a tags point of view (I suspect yes).

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thaaaank you!! I’d all but quit this sub because I was getting so tired of all the “just leave him” advice on every post that mentioned an argument between two people. I think this policy sounds well thought out and respectful of all situations. It’s much appreciated.

[–]ban1chka4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I really appreciate your work and the advice that all of the more experienced women here give. I'm still very young and do my best not to give advice unless it's something I have personally experienced multiple times and I know has given me the results I wanted (so basically no relationship advice unless it also counts for other relationships (friendships, family and such).

I was once told by someone that it's probably not a good idea to take advice from people who don't yet have what you are looking for. So, if you are a feminine woman and want a happy marriage with the right guy, it's best to take advice from people who have that. Right now this sub is the only place where I'm sure to find people like that and it's extremely valuable to me. Thank you so much for protecting this space. Lots of love!

[–]yungsweetro2 Stars3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for listening to our feedback! The updated rule makes a lot of sense and I like how its multi-part list covers a lot of possible ground. I really appreciate the thought, time, and effort you guys put into this :)

[–]mommabear410 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love this clarification, so perfect. I was thrilled to see you are putting a stop to “just leave him.” I found this sub amazingly helpful a few years back and had mostly stopped browsing specifically because of the “just leave him” comment problem. I saw some appalling examples! Thank you!!

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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