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Praising masculinity in a blue pill world

July 29, 2020

TLDR- first date with a guy and he started talking about toxic masculinity, I was the first girl he was with that said masculinity is good, immediately saw his self esteem boost

I was on a date last night with a guy I’ve been incredibly interested in since before quarantine started, and at one point we got into some political conversation (we have mostly the same views, no debating), but at one point he said something about “everyone should be distrustful of men”. I stopped him and asked him to explain, and he basically said that with modern feminism, it’s the general consensus that men shouldn’t be trusted, all men are bad, patriarchy is evil. It was just so ingrained in him that his gender is inherently evil because of our current political landscape that he was badmouthing his own gender and putting himself down just for being a man without seeing the problem with doing so.

So of course, I told him I don’t believe any of that. When I tell you his eyes lit up!! Apparently I was the first woman he’s met that didn’t believe in all that. I told him that I love men and how they’re designed to be, and how I don’t believe masculinity is toxic. That it’s sad how many men have lower self esteem because of how feminists have made it so mainstream to hate men that it’s not PC to love them anymore. I talked for a minute or two about it and said that I think it’s a horrible cycle, because the more people buy into all men being horrible, the more we expect it and seek out the horrible behaviors instead of commending the good, and it gives even less incentive for there to be good men because it’ll be overlooked in favor of the bad anyway, which just perpetuates the narrative of them being evil. The whole time he’s just nodding a little and looking at me, and then thanked me for that and told me how he’s never been with a girl before that didn’t believe in all that, and stopped putting himself down. And oh my gosh, I could see the difference in him through the rest of the night. Giving him that encouragement to be a man and be proud of it, the rest of the night he was even more of a gentleman, even more romantic, way more chivalrous - the entire energy changed!!

Idk, I’m sure this is RPW 101 but this was the first time since taking the red pill that I’d been able to go out with someone (thanks, covid) and the change it caused was shocking to me. Dates with other men before have totally just felt like two friends hanging out because it’s so taboo to lean into your own gender’s roles. I’m so glad this all happened early into the night so I could fully experience and appreciate the change it made in him to hear praise for being masculine for the first time.

Anyway, has anyone else had a similar experience where a man had literally never heard that from a woman before? What did you notice when you said it? It made me so sad to think about how shamed men are in our society, and I’m sure he’s not the only one who’s never heard praise before. I’d love to hear stories from y’all about the reactions you get from saying things like that! 🥰

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Post Information
Title Praising masculinity in a blue pill world
Author venetiaphair
Upvotes 161
Comments 34
Date July 29, 2020 3:10 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
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[–]Shane_The_Stoic32 points33 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The culture where you live sounds hellish

[–]venetiaphair[S] 37 points38 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Extremely. Incredibly liberal New England suburbs, both of us living in college towns. It’s nothing but angry man hating feminists who claim to loathe masculinity for being “toxic” but then shame any woman for being feminine for “pandering to men”. So it’s a real lose lose unless you’re a feminine man/masculine woman

[–]Shane_The_Stoic11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's unfortunate. Take some comfort then in knowing that the whole country is not that way and good luck.

[–]Seawolf4020 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

American identity politics is a cesspool of hate and bigotry. Feminists hate men while claiming they want equality and working for superiority. They created this "toxic masculinity" bullshit and it's been picked up and spread by celebrities and the mainstream media and corporations. They all hate men and think that manliness is dangerous just for existing and get blamed for everything, especially everything negative for women.

It is not a good time to be a man in America.

[–]Shane_The_Stoic10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In the past 5 years I've lived in Hawaii, Florida, and now Virginia and I consider myself blessed to have not seen or experienced what you described anywhere except for movies and Facebook.

[–]CPUequalslotsofheat8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Won't hatred of men riccochet and make men more Mgtow, just creating more of a diversion?

[–]Noodlesoupe26 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most women who hate men do so because of sour grapes. Same with MGTOW. Neither groups are desirable so it’s a moot point.

[–]venetiaphair[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I assume eventually, but I haven’t seen it myself honestly. I had never heard of mgtow before taking the rp, and was oddly surprised to learn about the concept at first tbh. Thank you for bringing it up though, it’s definitely some good food for thought re: our culture

[–]pinjooo34 points35 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Not quite the same, but I noticed that men were always astonished while I was online dating if I did little things like... say hello first, reply to conversation, didn't expect them to make the first move or "prove" that they had good chat or banter, ask them to go out for a drink/date/meal. While on dates I often suggested paying halves or taking it in turns to buy drinks and made it perfectly clear that I am an independent adult and don't expect to be paid for, but also that I like "treating" my male date to a drink just as much as they liked "treating" or paying for a drink for me.

My view was always that I wanted to be treated equally in a partnership, respected and taken seriously. So to have that women also need to act like an equal and take on equal responsibility. Its also not fair that boys and men take on all the risk of rejection in the dating game and pay for literally everything when women of my generation actually have higher employment rates and make more money than they do. Besides, unless a woman want to play childish games where guys are forced into a humiliating "chase", its important to reciprocate kind gestures and conversation. Men and boys like to feel wanted too.

Edit: Also, good for you OP. Nobody should feel inherently despised and mistrusted for the body they were born into. :) We should be raising people up and building self-esteem like you did.

[–]mashahrh3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Being a doormat sounds good. No really, before you ban me, there's something I really don't understand about this sub. Aren't yall supposed to be traditional ? Then why are you making the first move ? Why are you paying 50/50 ? Are women now supposed to look pretty and dainty and at the same time behaving like a man ?

[–]pinjooo0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

I don't really get what you're saying. You contradict yourself and sound a bit mental tbh.

  1. How is 50/50 (paying equally for a date) being a doormat? We aren't being walked over if we are asserting our financial independence. Quite the opposite.

  2. Who is "yall"? Who you are you even talking to? Not sure all of us do claim to be traditional, actually. And traditions can vary a great deal, anyway. Try not to make massive generalisations.

  3. How does being 'pretty and dainty' have anything to do with making a move and being approachable in the dating field? We can't be feminine and confident? Being approachable and making a move shows assertiveness, confidence, and independence - all of which can be very attractive.

  4. Also lol how is making a move or starting a conversation behaving like a "man"? ...And that also invalidates your argument that going 50/50 on paying for a date is being a "doormat. So... we are both manly, and also doormats... that pay equally? Do you realise how stupid that sounds?

[–]mashahrh0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

I just don't understand the way you (this sub) think. I thought you guys wanted to be feminine, traditional etc.. and then you make the first move, chase the guy and pay 50/50. I think men have it way too easy like that, aren't they supposed to chase ? Prove they are good enough for you to date them ? Saying you were a doormat was rude I'm sorry about that but I really don't get it. I personnaly would pay 50/50 if we were paid the same as men, if we could have the same career opportunities as they do, and if they saw us as human beings and not just as walking vaginas.

[–]pinjooo2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. It's not about "chasing". If you like someone you should be upfront about it. Thats just good manners and if women give clear signs then it stops silly games of "does she like/not like me". The idea that men are "supposed" to chase is different in every culture.

I don't know where you are from but in my country, the UK, men do not have it too easy and I dont think I have ever been viewed as a "walking vagina" in my professional career. In the UK women tend to earn the same as men, and women in my age group (20s-30s) are actually the higher earners with better career opportunities and making up a larger proportion of university degree holders because our education system and career pathways have been bent towards assissting female professionals. This may be different in your country (and many others obviously) but it just baffles me that in places where women have financial equality (or even better financial prospects than men!) many still expect to have men cater for them.

If women get equal status, rights and financial equality, and then they should share equally in the responsibilities of a relationship. Thats my view.

There is nothing wrong with being feminine AND independent. Femininity does not equate to being feeble and precious, and expecting men to do all the chasing and investing in the dating game.

Also, again, "you guys on this sub" - we aren't a hive mind. Many women on here will have different views.

[–]mashahrh0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Of course you can have a different opinion. I used to live in France, now I'm in switzerland. More and more sexual harrassment issues are coming out, I read an article yesterday about that concerning jobs in politics, today one about switzerland and sexual harrassment in the law fields. 95 pourcent of women are fired when they report sexual harrasment in the workplace (in france). They also fire women who have children (of course it's illegal but they know how to play with the law). And let's not talk about how women's carreer can't evolve when they have children (or very slowly). That's inequality and that's a major issue. Let's talk about inequality in the house now. Women birth children, take care of them and then go back to work. What do men do ? Some help, a bit, but it doesn't compare to the amount of work women do. See where I'm coming ? Women are already doing it all. And now we have to keep them interested by "chasing" them (which to me isn't showing signs of interests which is a normal thing to do but always texting them first, planning on dates etc ...). I think we're too nice with men, we make their life way too easy by behaving like this. They need us, not the other way around.

[–]pinjooo1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I do see where you are coming from. But you still can't make the generalisation that "women are doing it all". Which women? Where? What does "all" even refer to? Your grasp of the overloading of tasks onto women isn't going to be the experience of every woman in every society.

And I still don't really see how equality in the dating field - which is what this whole thread was originally about - and making communication easy for men (by women 50/50 paying on dates, texting first or suggesting places for dates, which, by the way, shows independence and maturity in any healthy, reciprocal adult relationship) has anything much to do with your statistics about women in politics jobs, being fired for pregnancy, or equal division of labour in domestic duties. Those are somewhat irrelevant to the general discussion about dating.

Having said that, I do take your points and I do recognise that sexism exists, so I see what you are saying. But it disadvantages BOTH men and women in different ways: Eg. You make the statement that "Women birth children, take care of them and then go back to work. What do men do ? Some help, a bit, but it doesn't compare to the amount of work women do."

But have you considered that men are therefore often expected to make a larger salary to support their family, but the nature of our economy means that men's wages have decreased on average in the west and cost of living is higher. So men no longer can support their wife and children on their salary alone? Men might want to be stay-at-home fathers or take more time off when their wives and girlfriends give birth, but often can't because men have not sufficiently been supported to take paternity leave? Yes, in some cases women do take on the brunt of childcare. But do you really think that husbands want to tyrannise their wives? Or is it perhaps the case that society has overburdened women with the expectations of kids, career, marriage and home, but simultaneously stripped men of their roles in all this? Women are told to "have it all" and men are told they are irrelevant.

Back to the matter of dating. My view remains unchanged:

If you are a traditional woman who wants to be "looked after", by a man, wined and dined on a date, and don't want to pay. Fine. Do that. If you want your man to be the bread-winner who sweeps you off your feet and allows you to never pay for anything, then expect traditional gender roles in the home and in your relationship. But that probably means less financial independence and tending to domestic tasks and the kids if your fella is out at work all day.

But most women now want equal status, rights and financial equality and for men to pull their weight in the home and with child-care. If so, then those same women should share equally in the responsibilities of a relationship and in dating. If women want equality then they need to go all the way and take equal responsibility for communication, planning and romance.

[–]mashahrh0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I see. I do want to be equal with men too, and refusing to pay 50/50 seems contradictory. Maybe in your country you will get to it, equality with pay and free child care and all of that. But in Switzerland, they still expect us to work part time when we get children, child care is rare and costs a lot, schools in generals don't provide lunches for children for exemple (they have to go home to eat during lunch, who has to take care of that ? Women...). Stores close really early (sometimes 5 p.m in certain cities), so you need someone to take care of that because when you work till 7pm you simply can't, so it's the woman who will do that. So when a man who expect me to sacrifice my career and work part time and take on traditional duties that I don't even want to participate in WHILE wanting to pay 50/50 because "we're equal now", I simply refuse. I want my small benefit of this heavy patriarcal structure that I live in. It might also hurt them is some aspects yes, but hey it's what they've created. Now for you, I hope it's not that way (probably isn't) but for example in Germany, where on dates they pay 50/50 and are supposed to be equal, during the pandemic married women worked as much as single moms in term of paid work and non paid work. They're happy about equality when it's sharing the bill but actively sharing chorses and child care when married isn't done. About planning dates and all of that... of course once I'm in relationship I plan some dates and I pay for some dates. But the thing is, before the relationship, men are actively dating multiple women at the same time which is why I don't send text messages first because I want to see how much time and effort they make for me. If the dates are planned, the text messages on his side are regular, the dates are not canceled last minute then I know he is interested in me. Honestly I wish we could do it your way, it makes more sense I agree, but men don't really work that way....

[–]pinjooo0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I see your point, and however you wish to approach dates is your business, and I wish you luck.

But I think dating sets a prescedent, and early stage relationships allows a couple to establish clear boundaries. In my view, paying 50/50, being willing to strike up conversation, suggesting places for dates and being equally willing to take risk and rejection in the early stages of dating makes it clear that a woman is independent, down-to-earth, approachable, confident, and is seeking an equal partnership and equal responsibility. There should therefore be no surprises to a man that 50/50 on domestic chores and childcare is expected and should follow if a relationship progresses that far. Hopefully, if he has enjoyed 50/50 in dating, he will be cool about meeting you halfway in household responsibilities. However, if you want dates to be paid for, get gifts, have him buy your clothes, drive you around, and be looked after all the time by your man without spending a penny, it may come a shock to them for you to cherrypick your independence and decide you're a career-driven woman with no interest in giving up your paycheck and staying home with the babies later down the line.

I think to say 'women dont have full equality in broader society so I am not paying 50/50 on a first date with a man' is just connecting two fairly unrelated things that dont have to be connected. How does one man on a date with you have any impact on wider societal and political issues? He isn't responsible for generations of women taking on the brunt of housework. You said "it's what they've created". They? Who? Again, you make random generalisations about men and placing blame on men for generations of inequality. No single man in modern society is responsible for hundreds of years of entrenched gender inequality in society. You cannot put that blame on a man. You can't play that card of wanting equality, but then acting hard-done-by and owed more by the man sat infront of you on a date just because of a history of inequality in society. Thats nuts. Its like demanding reparations from a total stranger for some unknown damage. I am from England, Essex, which was the home of witch-burning in Britain. Shall I head on over to Salem, Massachussettes in the USA and demand money from some random dude for his ancestors possible part in encouraging persecution of women as witches? That would be insane. So you can't say that women don't have equality in one part of life and so a man off the street somehow 'owes' you the full extent of effort in dating without you ever contributing.

I think its hypocritical to be so choosey about where your rights start and end. If you want equality in a partnership and equality in jobs, wages, domestic and childcare tasks then accept equality in dating too. Expect and demand equality in your dating life and relationships, and it is reasonable to demand equality in household and domestic tasks.

[–]mashahrh0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

When i say "they" I talk about a social group, like I would say about the "bourgeoisie" or the "working class". I know it looks contradictory to want equal rights and not wanting to pay for dates. But I live in a country where the whole structure is made to force women to work part time or not work at all when they get married. The only time I get to chose is when I'm dating, so yes I'm not paying and I'm not planning dates because I know damn well that I won't have a choice once I get married. And I haven't mentionned "care". Men only value what comes with money. They don't see the work women do when it comes to "care". When I'm in a relationship, I take care of the man I'm with, in many ways. Most of them don't, because they haven't learned that during childhood. For them, care is about paying, paying for dates, their only form of affection is money. That's why, if you take that out, what remains ? For most of them, nothing. That's why to me the relationship I have with men is equal, I give care, they give affection through money.

[–]Shadow76761 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I personnaly would pay 50/50 if we were paid the same as men

Women are not paid as same as men?

if we could have the same career opportunities as they do

Women don't have the same career opportunities? Wtf are talking about?

[–]sg_19964 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hi there, thank you for sharing! I can totally agree with your line of thought as I have been in both sides of the coin.

While I was in school, the girls from my school and I would meet up once a month to socialize and talk about random topics off school; the first and last time I attended, I experienced feminism hate towards men multiplied by 9 girls; according to this girls, men do not have the slightest idea what any woman is capable of doing, they do not appreciate us at all, they are cold-blooded humans that come to this world to hurt and destroy anything that gets in their way, and a bunch of other senseless "facts" that made me not want to meet ever again with them.

I have been heart-broken as well, and even though the pain has been ughhh ugly, (and I don't intent to find excuses in favor of heartless men), I understand that we are in a toxic society as a whole, men are taught that they need to be rough, and even in some families, it is wrong for men to show their feelings to a woman, but I could say the same thing about some women, we are taught the wrong things that turn many women into a mean, manipulative person.

Sadly, some of those believes got engrained in me without realizing it. I am in a stable relationship now and so far, I can say I found my prince, he has erased every negative belief I had of men, for example, he watched a romantic comedy movie with me and I was shocked that he'd even suggest that movie (because I had never seen it before), so I slipped a comment like: "I can't believe you saw this movie before" and he answered to me that "men also have feelings" (I felt embarrassed cause no one in my family taught me that, and I just believed it for a long time). We did have some rough times, but love overcame them. He is a wonderful man and I feel proud to be with him.

This is what I believe, and I am not saying I am right; men have feelings, some men just weren't taught how to handle them, but with the right tools, I believe men can learn how to manage them. We also have feelings, but some women also don't know how to use them for good or express them without fear of getting hurt. For a relationship to work, both parts need to provide value, and by value I don't mean criticism like some of us do or did, I understand we women have the tendency to turn into an early version of our mother, but after your significant half leave their parents house, they do not miss their mother's nagging to get into a relationship that reminds them the nagging; when I say value, we women need to take care of ourselves, the same way, your other significant half is taking care of oneself. Contribute into the relationship like your significant half is doing it as well.

One of our duties as individuals is to appreciate, value, give thanks and praise (a little bit) your significant other's effort, because those little details make you and your half appreciate the relationship and it's an esteem-booster. Love yourself the way you are, so you can learn how to love others, pursue the best version of yourself so you can contribute to society (if you think about it, we come to this world as a work-in-progress, improving ourselves so we can improve society) and appreciate the little things, because those will make the difference. It is okay to fail 10010000 times (lol, a lot of times), but the world has not ended, so every extra second of life we get, it is another opportunity to try again. Try, as hard as you can, to not let hurt and hatred shape the way you think or act, because there is a lot of hateful people already to add a plus+1 more, into this world. When someone hurts you or do not appreciate you, it is okay to walk away, it is not your loss, IT IS THEIR LOSS, you are a beautiful person and somewhere in this world there is someone meant to value you for who you are.

I could keep going with my rambling, but I believe I said enough already, so that is my input into this topic (really sorry for the long babbling lol)

[–]squideye621 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The first time I met a work colleague, we discussed this and the exchange was pretty similar. It was just one shift of two hours and then we had about a couple months of holidays (so in essence, we'd only met once). I got a text from him a month into the holidays asking me to hangout - and that's the story on how I went on my first ever date! He really appreciated that I didn't hate men and just blindly pander to feminism because of my gender.

[–]Attempt_Historical1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I, "inspired" a man he he took advantage of me

[–]venetiaphair[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m so sorry to hear that. True masculinity should want to protect, not use, and I pray you find someone who treats you as such soon

[–]NoSexMonk0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity =/= masculinism

[–]slimeba00ll0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The idea of toxic masculinity isn't that masculinity itself is toxic, it is that some characteristics of men acting around other people sets standards that make it difficult for men too, like stoicism for example, or "sucking it up and being a man." Please don't ban me i want to have productive conversation and no hostility. Its not to say that toxic femininity can't exist either, women make it hard for other women too and it should be called out. I am trying to understand because this community says society is hard for men, but then blames feminism when PC recognizes things that make it socially unacceptable for men to talk about their feelings. If that makes sense. Open for replies :)

[–]venetiaphair[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was a feminist for many years so I know what the phrase toxic masculinity is meant to portray, but the behaviors in question aren’t true masculinity at all. True masculinity is strong but cares for those it’s meant to protect, the yin to femininity’s yang, etc. But the phrase is used as a catch-all when it would be a lot more productive for feminists to call someone out on a specific behavior that is toxic. It’s too vague a term and not accurate, and the fact that it needs to be described as “masculinity itself is not toxic” kind of shows that. I also hope this doesn’t come across as rude because I do see where you’re coming from and was a feminist for so long and totally had used the term in the past. I just think that it would be easier if a new term was coined that more accurately gets the point across :) I want men to be the best that they can be and not held down by notions of what they SHOULD be that don’t actually lift them up, just like the example you gave. But I think the term “toxic masculinity” is harming men more than encouraging them to do better. I hope this makes sense- I’m still waking up and drinking my first coffee of the day as I’m writing this. I appreciate your input and civility ❤️

[–]slimeba00ll1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hi! You didn't come across rude at all♡ I do think it's overrused as a term towards a lot of behaviors that it shouldn't be, such as "manspreading" (idk who tf came up with that), and it can be a catch all for some people, but I do think that having a term altogether brought to light that some behaviors do harm people. When men feel they can't talk about their feelings or that play violence is power and they aren't surrounded by people who can help them see through it, having a mental discussion with themselves about why that term exists can help them be better to themselves and others, imo♡ and as i said before, I dont think its only men who need this.

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