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TradCon is RPW but RPW is not TradCon

March 26, 2021

This is a repost of an older post called "Checklist or Toolbox". I'd like us to revisit the idea that there is no real RPW. Any woman in or seeking a male led relationship is welcome to use the strategies on this sub.

Sex before marriage is not anti-rpw, cohabitation is not anti-rpw, even non monogamy is not anti-rpw. The core of rpw is how we interact with the man in our lives.

Women tend to be consensus builders (more on the female social matrix in another class – take my word on this for now). Because of this, any group of women will tend towards homogeny. The Red Pill has neve been about a particular way of life, however, RPW slips into this mindset quite often. It’s not rare to see someone discussing the “RPW Lifestyle” or “things an RPW would or would not do”.

This is problematic (u/guywithgirlwithabike does not like the word problematic but it tickles me pink – expect to see it pop up again).

The problem is that an “RPW Lifestyle” gives on the vague sense that there is checklist somewhere. If one were to find where on the darn sub we stashed the check list, she could follow it step by step, the heavens would part and she would be blessed with the most perfect blend of alpha-beta man that has ever walked the earth. Now, I’ve seen a pared down version of the TradCon checklist (thanks Mom!). That checklist says: graduate from school, find a job, get married, have sex, buy a house, have a kid. The details of how are a bit fuzzy and I’ve never been one for checklist, still, it seems like a solid plan right?

Well if I personally followed this plan, I’d have married my high school sweetheart. This is something that HSSH and I long ago agreed would have ended in divorce within five years of the marriage. I’ve never been good with checklists, they make me itchy.

Instead we call RP a toolbox. The challenge about toolboxes is that they contain tools. You have to know how to use tools properly or they don’t work. Further, you need to know which tool is the right tool for any given situation.

If you are partnered up, it’s very easy to find the right tool. Ask your man. Should you have long hair or short hair? What does your man like? Should your closet contain dresses or jeans? What is your man attracted to? Stay at home or go to work? What works best for your relationship?

Cue the feminist outrage: “Your own preferences matter!!” they will shout. This is why the [no feminism]( rule exists, it’s exhausting to put caveats on everything but caveat I will. Of course you should be comfortable with the decisions but if you have a strong preference why are you asking the internet what you should do?

Oh, and if you ask your man’s opinion and he says to use a hammer, don’t insist that the screw driver is better. It will make him crazy and it’s, dare I say it, disrespectful. Ask me how I know.

Now for you single ladies the question are a bit different. You should be asking: “what do men prefer” then “what do the men I am attracted to prefer” and “how limited will I be if I do this thing?”.

An example: I want to get a tattoo - Now a lot of men might be turned off by tattoos so you might want to think twice. However, if your “type” is Mr. Rockabilly then you are probably not going to have an issue with that full sleeve you want to get. It isn’t a problem to limit your options if your girl game is strong. Repeat after me: I don’t need to attract all men, just the right man.

There are some “tools” or strategies that will be consistent across all RPW. This is stated in the sidebar:

We come from all different walks of life, so on RPW you will find harmonious and productive discussions between very religious traditional conservative women and hardcore BDSM submissives and everyone in between. What we all share is not a lifestyle, a set of values, or a worldview, but a way of relating to men.

The biggies are: understanding our own nature, understanding male preferences (and the more nuanced – understanding your man’s preferences), submission, respect, sex. All these deserve their own rambling lecture so we’ll save them for another day while the baby naps.

Before we go, let’s talk about areas of disagreement. This is where the “RP is not TradCon” distinction really comes to light. There are a few topics that are guaranteed to rile up the base. Among these (non-exhaustive): monogamy or polyamory/open relationships, married v lifetime relationship, virginity and partner count. If RP was a checklist then these would all be an either/or choice. Because it’s not, it is entirely possible to be a polyamorous woman, in a lifetime relationship who has a n-count in the double digits and still practice RPW techniques and strategies.

So I challenge you to start thinking about RPW in terms of interactions with men and about how effective something is as a strategy. We can still talk about where to get a cute 50s style dress if you like (I have an adorable one for our Christmas Tea Party), but that dress doesn’t make you an RPW, it just makes you a girl in a dress.

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[–]KombuchaEnema4 Stars 70 points71 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I really enjoy this because I think a male-led relationship can be had with any lifestyle. You can be a traditional Christian woman with 2.5 children and a white picket fence who is in a male-led relationship, or you can be a polyamorous child-free head-banging tattoo artist who is in a male-led relationship.

The main issue I see with modern women is that they care 100% about what they want in a man and 0% about what a man might want in them. Or they assume that a man who doesn’t want them exactly as they are must be defective. In other words, “I’m perfect and if a man doesn’t want me something is wrong with him. But if I don’t want him something is wrong with him.”

This has made modern women miserable. Pair that with the fact that many of them are confused about what they actually want (as in, they think they want to be treated like a queen but feel repulsed by men who actually do treat them like a queen) and you have a recipe for disaster.

Maybe it’s because I’m a people-pleaser and always have been, but the idea of meeting a man’s standards and actually putting in effort to meet his standards makes me feel feminine and turns me on.

I think many women today view it as insulting to impress a man. They think they shouldn’t have to do any work. The man should just fall head over heels in love with her...but he should still have to work to impress her?

I’m glad I found this subreddit. I thought I was going insane for a while because the idea of impressing a man and working hard to please him actually turns me on. And the idea of being with a man who automatically thinks I’m a goddess makes me feel sick to my stomach.

[–]RP_Bear9 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great perspective! Always nice to hear your viewpoints. The world would be such a better place if every person looked to make others happy.

[–]stevierose78912 points [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

If one were to find where on the darn sub we stashed the check list, she could follow it step by step, the heavens would part and she would be blessed with the most perfect blend of alpha-beta man that has ever walked the earth.

It is surprising how many women come here seeking the magic formula to a perfect RPW lifestyle. They have their future all mapped out and all they have to is find a man who will fulfill their dreams. Instead they should wait until they fall in love with a man before planning their future. His dreams and her dreams might not align. It is better to share dreams and work together to achieve them. RPW tools provide the knowledge that women can use to form relationships that work. Posts on STFU and Bring Your Man Your Problems are examples of this. There is a wealth of information on the wiki, but I don't think very many women take advantage of it. I was happy to read this repost. I miss the quality posts of u/girlwithabike.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

There are quite a few older posts that I would like to bring back around. There are wise women who have been through here and while I do not have time to do as much writing as I'd like, I'm going to let their words speak for me. There have been some concerning trends that I'd like to address.

[–]stevierose7891 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

There are quite a few older posts that I would like to bring back around.

I think this is a great idea. Why the continuous effort to reinvent the wheel based on each individual post? So many issues that come up here have been addressed in the past by wise women who have learned how to use the tools of RPW in their own lives. They speak from experience.

I will go back and find a couple of the older posts that had an impact on my marriage and send them on to you with the reasons why they made a difference. If they are appropriate I will repost them.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

That would be awesome ☺️

[–]JanuaryArya4 Stars 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Can I repost some of my old content About Fascinating Womanhood? I wish there had been more comments and discussion when I was doing it. But it’s all there.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes absolutely. Those were great write ups and deserve a second go around 😁

[–]JanuaryArya4 Stars 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Should I link to the old posts and ask for new discussion? Or just copy/paste into a new post?

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm in favor of copying and pasting into a new post. You can link the old one (if you want) so people can read the prior discussion (if they want). But ultimately do whatever is easiest for you.

[–]Freja_Walther 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have to somewhat disagree here.

I fully agree that just because a person doesn't follow a typical relationship, does not mean we get to kick them out or refuse them help. If they find use in some of even just 10% of the strategies here, I think it's great.

"There are a few topics that are guaranteed to rile up the base. Among these (non-exhaustive): monogamy or polyamory/open relationships, married v lifetime relationship, virginity and partner count. "

There is absolutely no reason to shame or put down a person for their mistakes or simply their life choices. Put the fact of the matter is that to help men the most, we need to focus on how to create stable relationships and/or families, not only will it make our partners happy, it will make every man in our life happy to maintain healthy relationships.

Monogamy just happens to be the most stable and healthy relationship overall, not to say there don't exist good poly relationships, but choosing your long-term partner can be a game of chance at times and you want the best chance to create something healthy. It's hard to say the effect on society and men in western society because monogamy is by far the most common form of relationship, but there are countries out there where polygamy is the common norm. But the shift shows a positive effect on men's financial responsibility, their investment in their children emotionally and financially.

Marriage is a hard one to take up because any marriage can end in divorce which sadly normally benefits the women highly and bring a lot of men into financial ruins, but when children come into the picture, sons with unstable families are also the "men" in our lives that we need to think about. But Marriage is the better choice for a happier and more stable relationship, there have been plenty of studies and they still show that married couples are happier and more satisfied than unmarried couples living together. So how do you avoid divorce, well there is a lot of psychology in it, and just because you maybe meet a lot of the risk groups when it comes to divorce, does not mean that you can not help that chance in other ways, like learning communication skills, learn to fit with your spouse flaws, work on healthy structures in your homes and much more. But none the less, we should try to avoid falling into groups with higher divorce rates, groups there have higher divorce rates are people there have had sexual partners before marrying, people in some political groups, your faith can have an effect on your divorce rate, a lot of stuff.

So, if a woman comes in here and wants advice on how to create a healthy relationship with a high-value man, and she is saying she is out doing a one-night-stand, I will always say that to create the most stable and happy relationships, it would benefit her to stop her one night stands. That is not "shaming" her, that is not "judging" her, it's accepting that despite there being plenty of ways to be redpilled, there are ways of life there is statistically better for men and women overall.

Ignoring things there could cause a person to have unhealthy relationships to the men in her life, just so she don't feel "judged", is not helpful.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you have missed the point of the post (and why I posted it) in order to get on your soapbox.

On a personal level, I agree with you that a traditional monogamous mother/father family unit appears to be the building block of some of the strongest societies. However, the sub wasn't created to benefit society. We are here to help women achieve their relationship goals under the current constraints of modern day, usually western, civilization.

No one is suggesting that we encourage ONS to find a man, but if a woman has a guy that started as a ONS that doesn't mean she has ruined the potential relationship and that doesn't make her "not an RPW".

And I'm also not shying away from judgement or shaming women who continue to engage in stupid behavior. If you have 10 ONS and none turn into relationships and you tell me "the next one will be different", then you'd better believe I'm judging you. But if you come and say "what do I change to improve myself and my situation" then I'm going to help you and not say "you were bad in the past and beyond help".

RPW is about what works not about a moral imperative to help men overall or society. There are probably women here who believe just as you do and feel that helping relationships florish helps society. The sub isnt here for that though. We take an individualistic approach. We aren't here to push our morals on others but to get them tools to make the best decisions within their own moral structure.

[–]HappilyMrs 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do think it feels checklisty sometimes. Particularly around being in shape and having a high income. I'm here to improve and work on having the happiest marriage possible. But sometimes it does feel like that's not good enough, and like I can't really belong. I prefer to look at it as a toolbox too. Thank you.

[–]yclaws 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“It is our school ... but there are no hard and fast rules. Just win ... That alone is the most important rule of the Ashina style” - Isshin Ashina

The goal: Male of leadership quality -> Male led relationship

The means: Men are unique individuals. There are no 100% true rules across all men. Figure out the means for the particular individuals you are interested in.

[–]flareking41 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

it was here that i notice the both girl and guy withabike are gone.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have it on good authority that they are still together but their bikes are collecting dust since the baby.

[–]flareking41 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats good.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

IMO your post goes against the principles of RPW to some extent. Commitment before sex is key to RPW. When you talk about sex before marriage, cohabitation, and polygamy, these don't necessarily align with commitment before sex. It's very possible for a man to up and leave at any moment. Of course, marriage is not the only form of commitment, but it is a major form of commitment. For ladies who take part in the previously mentioned (sex before marriage, etc.), how can they guarantee a commitment? Would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Edit: To the downvoters, please tell me a better form of commitment than marriage. I would love to know. Pretty sure the downvoters are men though -- no surprise.

When a woman has sex, there's risk of pregnancy, even with contraceptives. I'm not willing to risk having children out of wedlock. I want them to be born into a stable committed relationship. If there was no risk of pregnancy, I would have had the same views as men.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[S] 20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There are two things we need to look at when discussing whether commitment before sex is or is not RPW.

First: Who is RPW for

Too often I see women being told "you aren't RPW because you are cohabitating, having sex, not a virgin, whatever". RPW isn't a title and isn't a merit badge. Every woman is allowed to use the strategies, some of them or all of them, to achieve her goals and make her relationship better. If a woman has already started a relationship where she's having sex then the cat is out of the bag. You can't backtrack on that and we're not kicking her out and telling her she can't have RPW advice because she had sex. You have to take each person as they come, and people asking for help aren't always going to come with the perfect background.

Second: Sex & Commitment

There are reasons to delay sex. I'm not suggesting anyone jump into bed on a first date. However I have seen plenty of women through here over the years admit that they had sex on the first date, or as FWB or in a "not RPW" fashion and they are happily married to good men. It isn't a death sentence to a relationship. It's also not going to secure you a relationship.

And that's the problem.

If you delay sex for a considerable amount of time, you are selecting for a man with more beta traits. When you do that, you kick the can of risk down the road. These are the men you are more likely to lose attraction to down the road. If you have sex right away, you are risking that he has too many alpha traits to stick around.

There is risk on both sides. Women must decide what they are comfortable with.

I think some delay is prudent because it's hard to vet when you have the hormones added into the mix. I don't think that delaying sex is going to ensure you get the guy. There is no way to guarantee commitment. Commitment is what happens when you and he decide that you don't want to live without each other. That's a feeling that develops from how you interact with each other and share values and life goals.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess it also depends on the culture. In Western culture, sex before marriage is no big deal, but in Asian culture, it's frowned upon.

When a woman has sex, there's a risk of pregnancy, even with contraceptives. The last thing I want is to have children out of wedlock, and abortion is frowned upon in some cultures; or children whose father I don't have a solid stable relationship with.

I still see marriage as the best way to know whether a man is truly committed to the relationship. Either way, what works for one may not work for the other. And thanks for clarifying what commitment means in RPW.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor 9 points10 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

With divorce rates so high, and people who cheat on their spouses, I think it's safe to say that marriage doesn't guarantee commitment.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage is a major form of commitment. You won't get married to just anyone, only to people with whom you are very serious about.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Also, tell me a better form of commitment than marriage then.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Marriage is not a form of commitment at all.

Marriage is a legal status. Commitment is a motivational state.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Also, since you don't see getting married as a form of commitment, in your opinion, how would a woman know that a man is making a commitment? Would love to hear your thoughts on this. You may also want to write a post about this. There seems to be a lack of clarity in the meaning of commitment in RPW.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link


  1. the state or quality of being dedicated to a cause, activity, etc.
  2. a pledge or undertaking.
  3. an engagement or obligation that restricts freedom of action.

The goal of RPW tactics is to create #1. Wedding ceremonies are #2. Signing a marriage license is #3.


Try thinking of it this way. #1 can create #2 and #3. Neither #2 nor #3 creates #1.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for this.

I get where you're coming from, and I agree with you. I still feel that all 3 are essential though.

I used to be against marriage, I used to think that it wasn't important, but what I've come to realize is that marriage is the ultimate form of commitment, especially from a woman's perspective if she plans to have children.

In life, there are highs and lows. A man won't always be in the state of dedication. When there's no marriage, it's much easier to walk away when the going gets tough. But marriage incentivizes couples to work through whatever challenges that come their way, and doing so makes their bond even stronger.

Of course, people can still cheat in marriages. People can get divorced as well. That's where picking a virtuous and compatible partner comes in. Marriage adds an additional layer of security, no doubt. It's the ultimate form of commitment.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I say marriage is a form of commitment, I'm referring to the decision to get married. As I've mentioned before, one would only get married to someone they wish to spend the rest of their life with.

[–]middlinghome 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Commitment isn't a signature on a marriage license, it's daily choices with a long term view. I'm still quite young and have seen many friends wait until marriage to have sex and end up divorced a short time later. It's worth mentioning I grew up extremely conservative, religious and taught to do everything "right". My story is quite different from what my parents wanted for me, I left home, got pregnant and have now been with a wonderful man for 14 years. The paper isn't what matters, it's the people that do. I do hope my tone of encouragement and kindness comes across here because I deeply understand the desire to want to do everything the right way. Also worth noting, my parents divorced shortly after I left home after 25 years of tumultuous marriage. My mother still believes that marriage is the end all be all and has stressed many relationships to breaking because of it. It is wonderful to have boundaries for yourself but be careful not to run off good men due to rigid rules. I personally have found that being flexible and willing to adapt is helpful in life.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage is just one element. Vetting is also very important. It's important to consider their character, their values, their openness to compromise and adapt. Their willingness to grow and work on their shortcomings. Their desire to please their partner and care for their well being. When I say marriage, I'm not referring to the license, I'm referring to the decision the man is making, the commitment that he is making, to spend the rest of his life with a woman.

We always say that divorce is possible with marriage. We refer to the statistics, but the stats don't tell the whole story. If we choose the right partner, divorce won't happen.

I get what you mean by it's important to be flexible though. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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