~ archived since 2018 ~

Game = Rape!!!

October 18, 2013

People (women mostly, but some manginas) often complain that the game theory/seduction tactics advocated by The Red Pill and other sites are dishonest and manipulative, and some even go so far as to proclaim that gaming a woman and ultimately obtaining sex from her constitutes rape. I’ve tried and tried to wrap my mind around how anybody could arrive here and figured I’d toss my prose out there.

Putting aside the fact that game methods are not some kind of magic formula that gets women to spread their legs automatically and unwillingly, making them helpless victims, I got to thinking – what is game, really? What, exactly, is a skilled pick-up artist manipulating women into doing? How, exactly, are women being deceived? Here’s what I came up with:

So Jimbo enters a bar or club. First off, he would never normally hang out in a place like this, because he’s an introverted, boring, beta nerd, but he’s been reading up on game and was told he’s supposed to practice, so he’s been going out every weekend even though that’s entirely unlike him. This is deceptive to women – the very fact that they’re seeing him at a popular gathering place is implying that he’s the kind of guy who goes to places like this. If they knew he wasn’t really that kind of guy and was really a boring, stay-at-home, introverted nerd, they’d never want to sleep with him. So he’s already raping people just by being there, but moving on…

He immediately walks up to a group of people that includes a few hot girls and starts talking. He never does that normally because he’s shy, suffers from social anxiety, and is introverted – especially around girls. To help hide the fact that he’s really nervous, he has a few sets of story-type scripted lines he likes to begin with. Because he’s said all of these things before, they come out easier without having to struggle to find the right words and without looking nervous. They’re also a lot more interesting than any of the stuff he’d normally talk about with people, because he’s kind of a boring, stay-at-home nerd. This is deceptive to women because it makes him appear more confident, socially adept, and interesting than he actually is. If he weren’t putting on this front and he were just being himself, girls would immediately be able to spot that he’s a socially awkward, nervous, boring loser and weed him out.

Throughout the conversation, even though he’s really attracted to a couple of the girls, he doesn’t let on. He’s actually a little rude – not in a bad way, just in a way that makes him look confident, like he’s used to dealing with girls and doesn’t really care whether he scores with them or not. This is deceptive to those women, because there’s a chance they might be intrigued or put a little more at ease by the fact that he’s not overtly hitting on them or pulling out his Johnson, pointing to it, and telling them explicitly about his objectives. It’s also deceptive because it makes him look confident, sure of himself, and attractive to women when, as described above, he’s not actually confident, socially adept, or interesting at all.

If the night goes really well, he takes home a pretty girl and she sleeps with him, never the wiser. The next day, however, she discovers that he’s not actually a confident, interesting, socially adept guy. He’s actually kind of introverted, nerdy, anxious, and boring. She was tricked! If Jimbo had been himself last night, she would have identified him as a loser she doesn’t want to sleep with right away and could have moved on to other guys. She was therefore an unwilling participant in the sexual encounter, and was thus raped.

The lesson: It is completely immoral to put on any kind of act or front that makes you seem more attractive to women. If your are unconfident, awkward, or boring, you absolutely must lead with that and not pretend to be socially adept, confident, and interesting in an attempt to bed girls. That is lying and is not cool.

As an aside to the above, in the morning, after the girl’s makeup had rubbed off all over Jimbo’s pillow, it turns out that she was a 6 and not a 9, and was 34 years old and not 26. However, as we all know, it is completely immoral and bigoted for a man to consider a woman’s appearance and age when evaluating a prospective match, and a woman’s attempts to disguise these things are actually quite heroic, because they help ignorant men to ignore their unreasonable bias against ugly old hags.

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Post Information
Title Game = Rape!!!
Author Archwinger
Upvotes 84
Comments 36
Date October 18, 2013 6:34 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit /r/TheRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/game-rape.7309
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1oqb16/game_rape/
Red Pill terms in post

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire235 points36 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, for many people, it's fake it till ya make it.

Some people may appear to be naturally charming, but it took years of training to achieve that high level of charm. Many people who are charming at an early age are mimicking their parents, relatives, friends, media figures, etc. Then they forget they ever copied them in the first place as the mimickry is assimilated into their personalities through a reward cycle where they are socially rewarded for charming behavior.

Other people start off further behind in this department. Their parents are clods. They start off cloddish. They don't attract charming people, and so stay cloddish longer. Only desperation triggers an attempt to change, that is, if they don't give in to inertia.

I think a lot the confusion comes from the action / being dichotomy. Many people still erroneously believe that individual persons are fixed, static, monolithic objects incapable of any kind of change. You ARE a meathead jock. You ARE a loser nerd. They have a much more difficult time wrapping their heads around people as a self-initiating process that can either evolve or devolve.

More easy to understand: the desire for someone authentic who has value. Game teaches people imitate value, to send signals of value.

This might lead some to conclude that the people sending the fake signals of value have NO value. In some cases this is true. I.e. the serial killer who poses as a good samaritan.

In other cases, people of great value have poor communication skills, and don't know how to signal value, or signal it in a way sends the opposite message. I.e. someone does well in college, gets a well-paying job, and brags about it, triggering resentment in other people. I.e. someone who keeps bringing up interesting topics without first gauging audience interest.

To add complexity, the culture may train people to devalue people who have actual value. I.e. anti-intellectualism; anti-physical fitness.

I wouldn't worry about what other people are saying. Just work on improving yourself.

[–]SpecialFester10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]puaSenator11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow, I've never been able to cognitively understand the hate against game, but you've managed to nail it. I always found it odd that you're allowed to learn new skills, be read books on better business/sales tactics, self help, improving communication, and a slew of other things, but soon as it came to game society frowned upon it.

I mean, I knew there was a good reason behind it, because I too sort of look at learning game as lame, but I couldn't put my finger on it. But you nailed it on the head. It's disingenuine and it fundamentally cheats the social fabric. Game comes off as betas pretending to be alphas. It actually encourages hardline betas to act more alpha. Understandably society doesn't like this. The betas were put in their beta place for a reason, and they shouldn't be coming out of their place without good reason (I don't agree with that, but that's how society feels).

Also, people need to understand this type of community. Most people are here for a reason. They want help. Naturally the community is going to consist of a ton of FA weebo types at the newbie level. I've actually seen a few RP guys before (online n shit, only once IRL). The truth is, it's kind of sad. I've seen self proclaimed RPs that wear fedoras with female anime posters in the background. Yes, these guys need self improvement, and it's understandable why they are here, but these faces are also what outsiders see. They see the social losers that picked up RP/seduction but never try, and they see the ones that have yet to make any progress. These types are the image of the seduction community to most outsiders. And understandably, people think, "This guy is a total geek, and he's reading books on how to pick up women. How lame." But they never notice the more advanced guys who have actually started making progress and are well past their awkward newbie phase. Because they know what they are doing, and blend in. The advanced ones know what they are doing, so you don't even know they are gaming. They aren't like those guys on YouTube trying to talk to 50 girls a day and getting shot down every single time (They don't need to do this, because they have already overcame their anxiety). They are that guy you met at the grocery store who is taking you out this weekend. They are the guy having a few drinks talking to his friends while you hope he comes over and talks to you. They are just normal regular everyday guys with a little bit more game and attraction than the rest.

I met a guy at the bar a few months back. I was with my mate's GF just having a few and shooting the shit. Just platonic, so I wasn't expecting anything exciting. Then some dude sits a few stools down. I knew what he was planning. I was actually quite insulted because this chick should be assumed to be my GF, and he was planning on running some game on her. In fact, I wanted him to, because I wanted to have some fun. Soon as he went in, I immediately threw him a test and he did well. But then, he started running a fucking routine. It was clear as day. And he was fucking good at it too! He handled all his routines, negs, creating options, interest, value, he was doing it all, but from a clear PUA angle. For the most part, I'm more of a natural, so it's harder for people to catch me, but this guy, I could tell wasn't -- well at least before he wasn't. But what he was good at was being his new self. He was actually successfully making progress. Needless to say, I eventually had to shut him down really hard, because I was letting him get to far with what he assumed was my chick. I was letting him run his thing because I was interested, but give a guy an inch and they'll take a mile. But that experience left me thinking, "Wow this shit works for others, and no one is the wiser. The girl I was with had NO idea he was a PUA. To her, she was just some average guy that was confident, interesting, and witty. I've even explained to her the PUA community before, so she wasn't ignorant about it's existence, yet she was none-the-wiser.

And you are absolutely right about what the opponents say. It's simply not worth trying to explain it to them, if it's even possible. I've tried, and it's a mixed bag. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if they understand, so why bother? Just worry about making progress yourself. The same people that think game is ridiculous are also the same people that unknowingly have fallen to a PUA before.

Great insight. +1, would fuck again.

[–]mister_zd2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Its all about target audience really. You have to identify the sort of social circles you'd well in.

I am an intellectual type, I am immediately betafied in night clubs, I am awkward, conversations are limited, women see me as a boring loser and I cant even start gaming them. Not the right target audience for me.

Surrounded by other intellectuals or artists I am immediately fairly comfortable and conversations flow with ease, and women find me interesting, and if I start gaming them will often find me charming. The right target audience for me.

When you find your target audience things will fall into place fairly quickly and from there you can start working on finer aspects of gaming women (and people in general). You will know you'll have found your target audience because things will tend to "click" with relatively little investment/effort.

And the sort of women you should game will become obvious; some you will feel very comfortable around with, others will be a total drag and feel more like a chore. I like to compare it to histocompatibility.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Learning is Imitation followed by Elaboration.

Learning game is no different.

[–]Pink_acetaminophen12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She has plenty of time accusing him of lying while she's on the floor looking for her push up bra, spanx, hair weave and make up bag lol

[–]Petrarch160310 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There's a mechanism in place and I'm sure there's a name for it, but I don't know quite what its called. In close-knit communities there are often power struggles in the hierarchy and the debate usually spins out of control and there is no longer any way for there to be a orderly distribution of power.

For example I remember reading an article by an estranged member of an orthodox Jewish kibbutz in New York City. As she became disaffected and found disagreement in the leadership of the community that she was trying to contribute to, she eventually was accused of being a Nazi and forced out. Another example is a friend that was part of the Korean community in southern California. Their family was involved in the local politics and to make a long story short, the family had a split and eventually they were shunned and called spies of North Korea. There are many examples of this in history, like Mao ousting the Gang of four as taking the capitalist road. These examples are so ridiculous but they have currency in their local communities.

My point is that this is what is happening when feminists accuse anything they don't like of as 'rape'. Its patently false yet there's no way to get away from the stink of being called a rapist. The only claim that has any currency in feminism are claims of rape or racism. Because of this, all transgressions suddenly become equated with rape and any meaningful stasis is shut down.

Look at how the skeptical movement has been crippled by feminism. Rebecca Watson is flirted with on an elevator and is almost raped. Michael Shermer takes a skeptical stance to the whole incident and PZ Myers accuses Shermer of raping a woman at TAM.

All of these feminist cries of rape are doing a real disservice to real rape victims. Unfortunately anyone that tries to point this out is accused of rape and swiftly taken out of the debate.

[–]1PaulRivers105 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You probably meant this when you wrote "Rebecca Watson is flirted with on an elevator and is almost raped", but I feel obligated to point out that nothing in her story (if I remember correctly) actually said that she was "almost raped". She was not attacked, threatened, he didn't make a move toward her then someone came along, etc.

Anyways - regarding the rest of the story, I love seeing other people making the same realizations that I have. It's a political power game.

I was going to say something a little different in this particular case (though your point about how a lot of this stuff works is excellent) - "rape" has become a word that means "anything sexual that strays outside how the women talking thinks sex is 'supposed' to go". ("thinks" how it should go, not what she actually responds to.)

A fat woman at a club, and her cute girlfriend is going to go home with a guy while the fat girl isn't getting any attention? She can't let her do that - she might get "raped". (This is something I've seen happen myself, it's super weird but finally I figured it out.)

A girl runs a guy through her filter, sleeps with him, then he turns out to be different than she thought the next day? "rape" - he was supposed to turn out to be exactly what she thought he was the night before.

When a guy ties into the female social system women use for controlling other women (shaming, emotional uncertainty, etc), well that's only something women are supposed to use against each other, so again - "rape".

You're right on about the topic in general, and unfortunately it's the system that has started to trivialize rape.

[–]SpecialFester1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I hear things like this, a phrase Stefan Molyneux taught me that I seem to be using so frequently lately comes to mind:

"Square that circle for me?"

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Another fun analogy with guys can be in relation to martial arts. A lot of guys start learning martial arts to lessen the likelihood that they will become victims of violence (a situation much more likely to occur than rape might I add), perhaps we should start teaching these men that learning martial arts isn't the answer, telling violent people to not be violent is the answer! It just makes so much sense ~

[–]xxmonsterx7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My view on this, is that if jimbo is capable of impersonating those aspects to the point in which he can actually pull it off...Who is to say that jimbo really isn't that 'type' of person.

By mimicking the attributes of what he wants to be, he unintentionally obtains them in the process.

So all jimbo has to do is go out and do what he did that night on a frequent basis.

Then who is to say jimbo isn't that 'type' of dude?

You are what you choose to be.

[–]mazzyTuff7 points8 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

It is straight up Blue Piller self-projection.

It's doubly amusing since in my discussions with BPers and feminists, their "alternative" to game IS kidnapping and rape.

That's right, for a blue piller, negs are totally horrible.

But kidnapping and rape are more effective options.

We really shouldn't be surprised by the BP response though considering famous BPers like Hugo Schwyzer are actual rapists. It seems the BP manginas are totes cool with rape, provided the girl doesn't say anything about it afterwards, and they've sufficiently manipulated the girl into never saying anything about it.

We also see this in mainstream feminists advocating that women are completely incapable of rape, so adult women raping 13 year old girls is totes okay. Vagina monologues are soooooo deep.

Because feminism!!!

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire20 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

"It's doubly amusing since in my discussions with BPers and feminists, their "alternative" to game IS kidnapping and rape."

What do you mean? They advocate kidnapping rape instead of persuasion?

[–]mazzyTuff1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

They believe that rape and kidnapping is a more effective sexual strategy than using game, and some BP members were willing to teach rape strategy to Red Pillers provided that the Red Pillers would use their rape strategies.

I had one BPer begging to teach me how they would rape and kidnap women.

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire21 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

What? You're kidding! Surely they were joking or being satirical. Do you have a link for that? I thought Bluepillers think the Redpillers are the rapists.

[–]mazzyTuff2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire21 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link


They're not actually saying that they do these things. Nor are they really saying you should actually do these things, nor that they are moral.

They are doing this to try and make the point that they think TRP tactics are immoral by equating them to rape tactics. You were defending TRP because it works. They were saying, "Well, rape works too."

They are failing miserably at persuasion, but I don't think they were seriously advocating for rape as something people should superior to TRP.

[–]mazzyTuff-4 points-3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The person's was willing to educate me on how rape and kidnapping was more effective.

For this BPer, teaching people how to rape and kidnap was worth it just to make a point.

It's part of TBP's constant cognitive dissonance.

Rape and kidnapping instruction is alright as long as they're the ones doing it.

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire22 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

He's not really teaching you anything, and I doubt he's doing it himself. It's all just a thought experiment to him. He's definitely a schmuck though.

[–]mazzyTuff-4 points-3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are correct in that nothing was taught.

I refused BP Rape and Kidnapping education, in the same way I would refuse a drug pusher.

Just because I did not buy drugs, does not mean that drugs were not offered for sale. In the same vein, just because I was not educated in being a rapist does not change that education in becoming a rapist was offered.

We can doubt all we want, but we can only make judgements based in objective reality.

Whether or not it was a thought experiment does not change that an offer to educate on methods of rape and kidnapping was made.

[–]jacobman-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

What's the alternative that you parade around as kidnapping and rape, which I'm almost 100% sure is either hyperbole or a cherry picked example that doesn't represent what most non redpill people think?

[–]mazzyTuff-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I use game.

I don't need to kidnap or rape, as some BPers have.

[–]jacobman-2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think you misunderstood my question. What are feminists/bp's suggesting that you do instead, which you are calling kidnapping and rape?

[–]mazzyTuff-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists/BP are suggesting to me that rape and kidnapping is a more effective strategy than game.

[–]jacobman-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't believe you. It's possible that one feminist/bp did, but I don't believe that that is the norm.

[–]SpecialFester-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Saw your user name in my peripheral vision while reading your comment and I thought it said: "Jazzy Jeff"

Y'know, like Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.

Good story huh?

[–]purrit1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Kids (these days), they just don't understand.

[–]isthatyourdaughter4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The reason these people react so strongly to the idea of Game is the same reason women call other women "sluts" for looking hotter, and the same reason "Hot Chicks With Douchebags" exists. It's primal, unconscious competition anxiety. On an instinctive level, they understand Game works, and so the men who utilize it will outperform them in the SMP. This is not what these people's unconscious minds want, so it engenders a hostile reaction, which is then hamstered into "righteous" indignation.

In addition, for women who criticize Game, there is the added element that Game threatens their sexual primacy. We often say they're just afraid it would work on them, which I agree with, but that fear is not a conscious one. It is a fear as deeply rooted as the revulsion you feel at a scuttling cockroach. What makes their words so despicable is the way they callously dismiss the very real suffering many men go through, for the simple crime of cluelessness. These women would never talk this kind of shit about fat girls losing weight, or girls with acne or excema who decide to see a dermatologist. But those are the exact same thing as Game.

Who gives a fuck what any of them thinks. Haters are gonna hate. Just keep working on yourself and leave the doubters choking on your dust.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

high heels, pushup bras, spanx, make up, and hiding sluttiness are all forms of rape as well.

but seriously, they are understandably frustrated that men have figured out the feminine mystique and are making it harder to identify true naturals, and they want to use their usual tool to keep lesser males in in their place: coercion by the state.

edit, oh damn, looks like someone beat me to it.

[–]Stopher4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Would you please stop trying to apply logic and rational thought to the feminist narrative!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If game is rape, then so are pushup bras, spanx and makeup.

And don't even get me started on cutlets. Cutlets are double rape.

Double rape and a half.

Do you, as a tricked out woman who spent 3 hours putting herself together juuuuuust right honestly think you look like that? Do you honestly think I'd put this amount of effort in if you didn't look like that NOW?

Guess what? Turns out we're both putting on masks, but mine doesn't come off when I get splashed with water.

[–]jacks10001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Girl game, at its finest:


When you first meet your new victim, tell him what a great guy he is. Tell him you admire his accomplishments. Bring out your fake self-confidence. Show him you are a resposible, rational, hard-working adult woman.

Or, read anything in Cosmo. Seriously, we have feminists screeching that "game" is somehow "rape?"

We're not dealing with psychologically health people here.

[–]mister_zd0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was starting to get irritated by you mixing boring with nerd with introvert... until I read the ending.

[–]thesilvertongue0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In the business world, you can legally use misleading advertising without it being considered coercion. The same rules should apply in the bedroom.

[–]dre_day4-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

At worst, game is social engineering.

Society does not understand that the successful people they admire so much are the people who do these kind of things. Successful people learn the bitter truth on how things work and deal with it accordingly.

[–]Emerald_Triangle-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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