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High body fat is a killer for male attractiveness. Get your body fat down to a decent level.

June 4, 2020

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends which way you look at it) men and women are held to different standards in a number of areas. One of those is physical standards and levels of body fat.

Whereas women can look pretty decent and fuckable at high body fat levels, men pretty much never do. High body fat on men is an absolute killer for their attractiveness. Being lean and decently muscular is crucial to looking attractive to women. There are men who chase chubby women. BBW porn exists for men and is very popular. There is no equivalent for women. Women find fat men disgusting and sexually unappealing in all senses.

You're probably higher body fat than you think. Do this test to see if you're too fat: Stand naked in front of a mirror. If you can't see any part of your abs without tensing, you're too fat.

I used to think I wasn't fat. I didn't have a beer belly like other men, I didn't have a double chin, I didn't have any obvious signs of fatness that you would associate someone with being fat. But I was still too fat to be attractive. My face was a bit puffy with baby fat on it. My pecs had a bit more fat than was ideal. I couldn't see any abs unless I tensed. I could feel the fat on the inside of my thighs. I wasn't obese, but I wasn't lean enough to be considered sexually attractive.

Now I try my hardest to keep my body fat to low levels. I realise that it's quite easy for me to put on fat or get a bloated look. This is especially true for any of you who are "bulking up" in the gym. There is no need to put on much fat. It makes you look unattractive. Even a man with a lot of muscle looks unattractive to women if he is above a certain level of body fat.

Women want to see your muscles - they find that sexy (look at all the statues from ancient times and the men were visibly lean with muscle definition and abs showing). They do not want your muscles hidden under a layer of fat. It's better to be 170lbs and reasonably lean, with abs and other muscles showing, than be 200lbs and have a fatter/bloated look.

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Post Information
Title High body fat is a killer for male attractiveness. Get your body fat down to a decent level.
Author BumblingBeta
Upvotes 756
Comments 302
Date June 4, 2020 6:13 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit /r/TheRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/high-body-fat-is-a-killer-for-male-attractiveness.671344
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/gwmtu3/high_body_fat_is_a_killer_for_male_attractiveness/
Red Pill terms in post

[–]myfirsttimecoding257 points258 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

I thought the big bulky look would be attractive for women because I would see rugby guys getting laid. They just got laid because of mass amounts of pre-selection and confidence, not their bodies. I leaned down and girls in nightclubs started approaching me. Life changing.

[–]TheRedPillRipper12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

rugby guys getting laid

As a former rugby player I can attest. It’s pretty simple when girls know you ball.

I leaned down

Before I found Keto there was a diet I ran for 8 months called The Liver Cleanse Diet. That’s leanest I’ve been in my entire adult life. I loved having abs visible but for me having physical mass is more beneficial. You may want to be a lean 170; but give me a strong 220 any day.

Godspeed and good luck!

[–]myfirsttimecoding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can respect that. Do you have decent beard growth/jawline whilst more bulky? My face puffs up above roughly 12% bf but when I'm lean I have that 'fuckboy' jawline the girls my age love.

[–]zeekt128 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah i remember being a bit bulkier at the club, not fat but not lean, and not getting much success, while the guys that were leaner (even if they had no muscle) naturally did way better.

Face aesthetics >

[–]myfirsttimecoding8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I became one of those leaner guys and trust me there was a big difference. When I finally got near the end of my big cut a few years ago it was like I suddenly got into that top 20% of men that they talk about here. I was the top choice in the room. When I was bulky I looked way bigger and had less guys chatting shit but less girls would look at me. I remember cutting down and shaving my shitty stubble before going out one night and that same night for the first time the girls in the club came up to me to speak/dance. From then on it just became normal.

[–]zeekt124 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Literally man, its legit a cheat code to life. People start to treat you better, respect you more, and want to be a round you more. The halo effect is 100% true, better looking people do better in life in all ways.

Kinobody has a good stance on it too - https://youtu.be/LUJg7xzKrGw

[–]electricspresident-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I worry that no matter how lean I could get, even if I had the Brad Pitt body from fight club my height at 5ft8 would still be a downer.

[–]myfirsttimecoding1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can be 5’8 and skinny fat or 5’8 and jacked. Which one do you think you’ll be happier at?

[–]1scissor_me_timbers001 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What bodyfat % down to what bodyfat % are you talking?

[–]myfirsttimecoding2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hard to say accurately but I would say starting at roughly 20% body fat down to 12% if not a little lower. I had some thick v line veins, abs without flexing, no neck fat that you could grab

[–]3LiveAFTSOV89 points90 points  (46 children) | Copy Link

Now the next step for you is to write a guide on how to get optimal body fat percentage

[–]JamPetrarka70 points71 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just eat less calories than you need and buy a mirror

[–]valkrrii19 points20 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Stay on a 500 calorie deficit while cutting, bulk on a 300 calorie surplus (lower this number based on how long have you been working out). This covers the 80% of what you need to successfully cut down to 11% bodyfat and bulk up at 16%, a range of bodyfat where you will both be healthy and look good.

[–]CryptoViceroy9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

bulk on a 300 calorie surplus

I don't know why guys get told to bulk on ridiculous amounts of calories, all that happens is you become a fat and bloated mess.

A 300 calories surplus is more than adequate, even if your running grams of gear a week.

[–]sjswander945 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Truth. 100 calorie surplus is enough and to be honest you don't need a surplus to gain muscle progressive overload does the trick by itself.

[–]valkrrii0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

A 100 surplus can be (most probably is) enough, however, measuring progress would be impossible as the weekly or even monthly weight gain would be too small to distinguish it from the daily variation in weight. A surplus is necessary for beginners because it leads to more muscle growth. For more advanced lifters, a surplus results majorly in fat, not muscle, gains and hence is not recommended.

[–]sjswander941 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I disagree. Newbs ,more than anyone, can re-comp in a deficit and a surplus most certainly isn't necessary. IMO if you don't have abs that tie into your serratus you have no business eating in a surplus. If your lean enough you can shoot for a 100-200 calorie surplus and see how your body reacts. Some people have amazing genetics and partition calories more toward muscle growth and don't gain fat , if that's the case yea eat maybe 300-500... IME most aren't that lucky and 100- 200 calories over is enough .

[–]odaklanan_insan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, human metobolism tends to burn fat to create a calorie surplus in need. As long as you have extra fat, you don't need a calorie surplus while building muscle.

[–]Roya145 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You go to your doctor and say you want to lose weight and ask for Adipex, Adderall or another stimulant. Then you eat less and train consistently and ask yourself when your will is tested just how bad you want this.

Anyone that says they maintain sub <10% yearly with ease is a liar.

[–]RightNowImReady2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In what country is this possible? There is no fucking way I could pull that off in Sweden.

I have been doing Caffeine/Nicotine and it's working good so far but have to go underground to get those type of stimulants.

[–]Roya140 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Interesting. Seems your countries healthcare doesn't have nearly as much leeway as the US does. There are many 'weight loss' and 'wellness' clinics owned by private practice physicians that regularly prescribe such things (as long as your insurance covers the cost). Students on university campus regularly sell their Adderall prescriptions to others under the table for some easy cash. Kind've crazy right?

It's really upto the prescribing physician. Some doctors are cool, some are very hesitant to prescribe stimulants/SSRI's, etc.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't work out at all. I have very poor eating habits due to laziness primarily. I also picked up smoking at the end of my college years and now years later a juul constantly instead. Nicotine is a hunger suppressant.

I probably have 5-8% body fat. And I'm not saying anyone should do what I do. I'm saying this is what I do when I'm undisciplined and lazy, which is pretty much always.

[–]Korrangar6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I probably have 5-8% body fat.

No you don't, that's the kind of range that professional bodybuilder targets for a competition, and they don't keep that shape very long. Unless you're graduated from auschwitz university, you're probably more

[–]sjswander941 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Depends on what you think is optimal. For me its 7% ending a cut and maybe 10% in the off season. It's quite simple actually. Eating less calories than you burn in a day combined with a solid base of muscle mass and you'll get shredded.

[–]gillybz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Saw this the mathematics of weight loss awhile back. In essence : eat less, move more and sleep

[–]zeekt120 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just watch a video on fat loss by either jeremy ethier or jeff nippard. Unlimited resourced online bro

[–]dareealmvp0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Look up the Thermo diet by Christopher Walker (there's a f*ceb00k group on it-thermo diet community group). It was designed purely for maximizing androgen receptor density, production of testosterone levels and DHT levels (everything masculine) and minimizing estrogen, prolactin and cortisol (everything feminine).

To give you a gist of what the diet is like, we avoid PUFA's (polyunsaturated fatty acids) that reduce testosterone, and only consume saturated fats and monounsaturated fats which increase testosterone, place great emphasis on eating more fruits, tubers, mushrooms, dairy, meat and eggs, and meeting all micronutrient needs of the body with minimal exposure to xeno-estrogens, antinutrients and other detrimental things for the body.

It allows you to cook really delicious meals out of combinations of these foods and it'll give you a six pack really fast because of a better hormonal profile and high-satiety foods unless you're insane and can consume >3500 calories while on this diet.

[–]Niocs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

does this have any scientific basis?

Did he checked his test levels before and after for example?

[–]dareealmvp0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link


He claims his testosterone was extremely low because of a benign tumor somewhere in his brain (around 11 ng/dl, when normal should be 600-1000 ng/dl, but after trying some changes, it increased to 1192 ng/dl. I remember seeing a blood report, but can't seem to find it now.

And yes it's all heavily based on research papers. Everything that's part of the thermo diet can be verified on ncbi, researchgate etc.

[–][deleted] 53 points54 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

i think the worst part about being fat or chubby is how much it fucks up your face. I mean it's actually INSANE.

like for real, my face is like an easy 8/10, (arguably slightly higher when i'm lean if you're really into my features), like no joke i'm a handsome mofo.

then i got fat, and bro i'm like a 5 or 6 out of 10 in the face now, for real. like bruh, it's fucked up.

it's the way that fatness makes you lose your jaw definition and cheekbone definition and gives you a double chin etc. etc. it's just ugly as fuck.

looking at old pictures of myself when skinny, my face was very very defined, now it's like i'm all round faced and shit. no bueno.

i don't even really give a fuck about the belly fat as much, it's just seeing your face become straight up ugly is jarrring.

[–]throaway4000s18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I concur. You face is the first thing people see really, unless your morbidly obese, you need to get to 10% BF ASAP if you are not already

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

i mean i don't think bellys are attractive but yeah man the way being fat makes your face less attractive is no good

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


its shocking how different your face looks with fat on it.

even the best looking guys out there look like shit when they put on weight.

the only guys I've seen to pull off the fat look are dudes who have very strong facial features like heavyweight boxers. but those dudes are usually never good looking to begin with anyway.

[–]1empatheticapathetic71 points72 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

I am currently the lowest level body fat i've ever been and yes it's a huge gamechanger. I first learned this last year when i went carnivore to try and experiment with cutting and simply being skinny with no gains (only strength training at the time) got me more looks than when i had muscle but was slightly fatter.

Currently cutting now and everyone i know has commented on my gains and shape popping out more due to having lower body fat.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV23 points24 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

How did you get to such low body fat

[–]growingstronk56 points57 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Download a caloric tracker like myfitnesspal and find your maintenance calories.

Once you do that, drop your calories by 500-1000. If you drop it lower, you will get cut faster, but you will sacrifice some muscle and you will feel wayyy shittier during.

Drink a lot more water for satiety

Eat foods that are more fibrous and physically filling. For example I literally buy packets of frozen vegetables (corn, celery, onions, carrots, edamame, green beans, broccoli, peppers and Brussels sprouts; you can add or remove whatever you want) and unload them into a pot filled with hot water. Add a bit of seasoning and you have a cheap and very satisfying vegetable soup. Two bowls of that shit and your stomach will be hurting from fullness. Also anything made of cauliflower or zucchini.

Buy some nonfat plain greek yogurt and flavor it with mio (without caffeine!) or some other low calorie liquid sweetener. Extremely low calorie and high protein


Watermelon is super low calorie for how filling it is

You can google protein fluff which is like a really low calorie high protein dessert you can make using protein powder, xanthan gum and whatever else you want.

As for cardio, it’s not necessary, and only do it if it doesn’t interrupt your workouts. Just walking more can suffice. But if you’re really having difficulty maintaining the aforementioned deficits, then def try to add some cardio

I think the lifting community is in agreement rn that the most optimal routine is fewer sets but with heavy weights for strength and size maintenance. For muscle maintenance only a hypertrophy style workout will still be perfectly fine for maintaining size but strength will suffer a bit

Meditation really helps with accepting cravings and not acting upon them

Find things to do to keep yourself busy and not thinking about food.

And finally don’t pressure yourself to have a consistent number each week. Some weeks will be better than others and that’s fine.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

fasting is extremely muscle sparing, at most you lost water bloat in your muscles


[–]CryptoViceroy3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fasting is one of those things where your mileage may vary.

I know quite a few people who swear by it, and it gives them good results.

Personally I've never gotten along with it and I've had just as good results without it.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

thanks for the detailed advice man

[–]valkrrii3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A more correct (but difficult to get right) formula would be dividing the amount of bodyfat you have by 20. For example, if you think you are around 20% bodyfat, dividing this by 20 results in 1%, which is the amount of weight you should aim to lose per week. If you are around 15%, aim at losing 0.75% of your weight and so on.

[–]RPOpenUp2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great guide, however 500 kcal is a bit much once you approach sub 15% levels, i'd lower it to about 300 kcal max. Long term consistency is more important here then quick results.(You will bounce back if you go too fast)

[–]1empatheticapathetic14 points15 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Mainly carnivore diet, yoga, HIIT, fasting. Now carb cycling between carnivore and carb diet. And I’m still not low enough yet. I’m just the lowest I’ve ever been.

[–]gjfarma5 points6 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Yo I was gonna hit carnivore diet, I suffer from a lot of chronic back problems. Shawn Baker sold it well, as did Mikhaela Peterson. How did you do it cheaply? And what results did it show? Thanks.

[–]1empatheticapathetic13 points14 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

I also have chronic back pain due to a disc bulge. When I do keto my inflammation drops significantly. When I do carnivore it’s completely gone. I lose inflammation in areas I didn’t even realise I had it.

Carnivore allows me to be very level headed and have a consistent energy level throughout the day. I find it hard to sleep honestly; it’s quite common on carnivore as you don’t hold onto water as long, resulting in more bathroom trips. I have no inflammation and I build muscle well. I’m not lifting during lockdown but carnivore/keto stunts my peak lifting strength abilities. I’ll go down 10kg or more for each lift if I’m on carnivore. It’s been perfect for lockdown where I’m only doing yoga and HIIT.

The carnivore staples are fairly cheap: bacon, eggs, tuna, ground beef. I have a friend who works in a supermarket so I get food at a discount. It won’t be forever but I’m enjoying the selection while I have it.

I’m now carb cycling so I eat carbs on weekends typically. My libido sucks on carnivore but comes back with a vengeance when I reintroduce carbs. Possibly due to lowering my insulin tolerance, I’m not totally sure.

I find when back on carbs I have more irrational confidence and impulsiveness compared to my levelheadedness in ketosis. Possibly related to (free) testosterone.

[–]gjfarma3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I've also noticed a similar bodily reaction, especially when I'm eating high carb Vs low carb. I wasn't aware that carnivore affects lifting so much. I remember Shawn Baker claiming his had increased but every person is different like that.

I'm gonna use ground beef and mostly to start, just need to make it somehow edible without creating a Bolognese lol.

Thanks for the info dude

[–]1empatheticapathetic2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Throw some fish sauce on there or make a meatzza.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]1empatheticapathetic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’ve been finding this recently with the large amount of sun. I already supplement with vitamin D at a high dose daily but the sun is a whole different story.

[–]TreatYouLikeAQuean0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

have you personally had a lipid panel when on keto or carnivore for a significant period of time?

Keto or carb cycling is one of the best ways to body recomp and shed fat but it seems like a lot of guys on the keto sub end up with terrible lipids, especially LDL.

[–]1empatheticapathetic1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I’ve done keto before and typically eat plenty of fat on a normal diet. I’ve done two cholesterol tests and my cholesterol has only improved over time, lower LDL and higher HDL. I don’t know why. Probably just eating better when off and on the diet and exercising more compared to the past.

[–]salezman122 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

calories in vs calories out my friend, its just math, not magic.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Intermittent fasting. Your body has to work hard to process/digest food. When it is not processing food that is when it can heal itself and do other things on it's own for your health that it can't do when it is busy processing food. You will lose weight, you will feel better, and your body will be healthier. It will be good for your immune system, too.

I don't know the optimum number of hours is to fast. I believe it is between 10-14 hours. You can do this without that much effort. Eat dinner earlier and skip breakfast. Drink lots of water. Black coffee is okay it will not break your fast.

[–]reddick167 points68 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

You have a very American opinion of attractiveness. IMO USA is the only country where the men look better than the women.

women can look pretty decent and fuckable at high body fat levels

not to me

There is no equivalent for women

Body is just one factor in your SMV. Outside of North America, women i've met don't care so much about body.

[–]Spets8714 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately Australia is the same. Lots of fit guys and too many land whales with overinflated egos

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s the anglosphere liberal white women bro. A plague upon the land

[–]throaway4000s-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

where you based in australia man

[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy Link


[–]reddick123 points24 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In Asia/Eastern Europe, girls are the ones who go to the gym to look better, and always wear makeup and dress nice. Guys can sit back, smoke, and drink. Granted the guys are not fat to begin with, but not fit.

In North America I see handsome guys that are in shape with 6/10s or 5/10s all the time.

[–]suupremeidiot12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whoa, is this right? Would love to see what others think!

I'm from eastern europe and from what I've witnessed so far, in pretty much most relationships the girl looks better than the guy, and quite often much better.

And the second statement is also true here. Average looking guys have really good looking girlfriends. It's not uncommon to see a guy, who would probably be considered a 4-5/10 in USA, have a 8-9/10 gf. Most of the girls really don't seem to be much more interested in a muscular body over an average body.

[–]Wabbajak4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You have a very American opinion of attractiveness. IMO USA is the only country where the men look better than the women.

women can look pretty decent and fuckable at high body fat levels

not to me

Neither for me. Women with somewhat low body fat and reasonably fit look best.

I think this is part of social acceptance of fat people. When you look at this map, it says that 41% of American women are obese. Interestingly, obesity rates are higher for women than they are for men on a worldwide scale. The average American woman 20+ yo now weighs 168 pounds (= 76 kg) at 5'3" (= 1.62 m).

As women gain weight, fat gets stored in disproportionate amounts in the buttcheeks, even more so for Blacks, Arabs or Latinas. That, plus the influx of immigrants from Arabia or South America, would explain the shift from "boobs to butts" in the US.

[–]Arnoux2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can agree. Women can’t look good with fat, unless they have very good genetics. But it is true for men as well.

I’ve seen a lot of bigger guys (mix of muscle and fat) with skinny nice body girls. My girl is very lean and I am bit more bigger (both muscle, and a bit of fat)

[–]GoodnessIsTreasure0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Duude, come say hi in Denmark, country were on average guys are more handsome than girls ;)

[–]ElectronicStrain8820 points21 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Do it for yourself too. Feels great waking up in the morning, heading to the bathroom and just admiring yourself in the mirror.

[–]epixs8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Real talk this is where it’s at. That morning shredded look before you hop in the shower .

[–]pragmaticminimalist8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

you can fool everyone but the man staring back from the glass...it feels great when he's pleased

[–]Lefanteriorascencion122 points123 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Your post for the most part is true, BUT if you have some fat but look like you lift you will go much further than if you look like a twink. Women want to feel safe so being muscular with some fat is not going to kill your chances.

[–]TheMailmanic20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is what I was trying to say but got downvoted. Either shoot for the big strong look or the lean muscular look

[–]Arnoux1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Big strong look is always preferred that is what I have found. I am not talking about obese men, but strong with some fat.

[–]Guarnerre199539 points40 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Agreed. Having a six pack level of fat percentage is fun and better, but wont be crucial. You can be muscular and have a but of fat.

BUT you should have definition. Broad shoulders for example is a must

[–]lefty92930 points31 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This only applies if you are jacked and swole as fuck, then a bit of fat is less important because you're still a truck.

For 90% of us, sub 10% bf would be considered a huge SMV boost.

[–]acoltismypassport20 points21 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Posted this in another thread already, but it bears stating again.

12 months ago I was 181lbs~ at 6', lean. Abs, vascularity, all of it. I got average returns on pussy. 12 months later (now) I'm 215lbs, around 18% body fat. I get ten times the attention I did than before. Once you reach a certain physical stature, AND it looks like you lift, women notice that shit. They notice it HARD.

Do I miss having visible abs and the extra vascularity? Sometimes. But I sure as fuck love having explosive strength on a bulk, feeling bigger and more sturdy, and physically towering over pretty much every woman and DYEL man I pass.

As a side note, you also get much more respect from men. Having anything from 20 to 50lbs on the average non-lifter seems to communicate an implicit 'don't fuck with me' vibe. I can't even imagine what it's like for these 250lbs+ units walking around.

[–]Saabackwards5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Gotta agree. It's harder for a lot of people to tell you're that much leaner when you're wearing clothes imo. If you're swole and have a little bit of fat you'll look bigger in clothes and it will be more noticeable.

Not talking about being a fat fuck, I'm talking 12-16% body fat

[–]acoltismypassport3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this. Unless I was wearing a t-shirt, singlet, or shirtless, you couldn't really tell I lifted. I just appeared slim and athletic.

I looked big even in a hoody now, which was completely unrealistic last year.

[–]reluctantly_red6 points7 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

12 months ago I was 181lbs~ at 6', lean. Abs, vascularity, all of it. I got average returns on pussy. 12 months later (now) I'm 215lbs, around 18% body fat. I get ten times the attention I did than before.

I find this incredibly hard to believe.

[–]MrDinkles77676 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

If you have the right routine and take the right supplements, it’s do-able

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Supplements are snake oil for men -- no better than the anti-aging creams marketed to women.

[–]-SetsunaFSeiei-17 points18 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think he means testosterone

[–]StarchRunner0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

He means gear, test alone isn’t going to do it.

[–]-SetsunaFSeiei-4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Test is gear and is more than enough to do what was described

[–]StarchRunner0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I misread his beginning weight twenty pounds light, as 161.

When someone says testosterone, I take that as the average test replacement therapy from a doctor. That wouldn't bring the same results as gear.

[–]NPLIronBanker5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah man "supplements" is usually code word for that SAUCE. Ain't nobody talking about C4 here.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Both work. They’re just overpriced

[–]acoltismypassport2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure why. The time frame was more like 14 months to be fair. Add in water weight from continuous overeating, a clean diet, a naturally wide frame, and it's nothing extraordinary.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

looking like a twink will never be a good look.

all those skinny but good looking dudes i see are never like gay level skinny. They still have muscle it's just the football player/boxer look where there is clearly an athleticism to them but there isn't loads of mass

[–]Frich32 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Literally typed this right before I read your comment

[–]Greek-God-Brody4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nobody gets to see your abs till you're shirtless. Unless you run Tinder game. Having a lean and chiseled face will do the job.

I don't think anyone with under 3 years of serious lifting will look like he lifts if he stays that low bodyfat (10%.

You should worry about getting lean AFTER you've build a lot of muscle mass.

6ft 170 lbs 15% BF vs 6f 160 lbs 10% BF

The first one will look bigger in clothes. The 2nd one will look DYEL in clothes, but better shirtless.

[–]Opiated000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The caveat to this is that most guys that think they are strong looking but fluffy are just fat and sloppy.

[–][deleted]  (27 children) | Copy Link


[–]casemodz28 points29 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If I'm lowering my standards for some chubby bitches, best believe I'm not dating them. Hit it and quit it. Odds are I'll regret it afterwards anyway

[–]myfirsttimecoding45 points46 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Depressing truth. I have been lifting for 7+ years but these fitness girls still act so fucking prestige because everyone wants a fit girl. I've only fucked a few over a couple of years even though I'm in that gym environment all the time.

[–]BurningOrangeHeaven14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was on the edge of what i find acceptable for myself - not abs or anything but decent shape that i find successful for myself without having to work out too much. This quarantine has easily shifted me into fat zone and i can see and feel it.

[–]TheEgyptianConqueror0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was cutting before this shit then got afraid of muscle loss so stopped. Then just ate whatever. I've gained 5 lb in the last month, so I started a cut yesterday to shave off a few pounds before the gyms reopen in my area in hopefully 2 weeks. Ten it will be a surplus again to take advantage of muscle memory gains, then a hard cut to get that beach body

[–]DifficultContext12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

A better and scarier test is to look down and see if you can see your penis without moving. If you cannot, start diet and exercising asap.

[–]GlowInTheDarkDonkey5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd have to get pretty fat to not see my main attraction.

[–]throaway4000s3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha for the longest time I couldn't do this. Too funny yet true, brother.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Seriously. This needs more attention.

The #1 way to build physical attractiveness is to get shredded. You don't need to look like a body builder, you just need to have low bodyfat.

Low bodyfat will make your jawline pop out, your cheekbones will show, and your face overall will look more desirable. Also abs and veiny arms.

[–]5121653813 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

get shredded.

Being 75kg with <10% bodyfat is achievable by most guys. A lot of the general public see that as a "bodybuilder physique".

[–]Burrito_Capital2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Beards cover that well. But we get your point

[–]micaarzur10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not everyone can grow a beard, unfortunately. Getting shredded on the other hand...

[–]Burrito_Capital1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, was sarcasm, but honestly beards or clean shaven do not work for everyone, so experiment here too.

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Low bodyfat will make your jawline pop out, your cheekbones will show, and your face overall will look more desirable. Also abs and veiny arms.

What BF% have you found achieves this? 13%?

[–]Zech4riah4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a bit individual I'd say 13% is pretty good average. It all depends where your body tends to store fat.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It depends on how much definition you want. You can start to see abs around 15% and your face will be pretty lean looking, but at <10% your face and abs will be absolutely chiseled. I’m talking you could slice bread with that jawline! But of course it’s difficult to stay under 10% for the entire year. 13% is definitely more realistic long term, and there isn’t too much difference, you’ll still be more shredded than 95% of guys out there

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

So you're saying it is absolutely worth the effort to go from 15% to 10%?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It will definitely help with your physical attractiveness, but it’s up to you. If you have the game then you can make up for being at a higher bf%. Also at 15% you will look bigger, that extra fat padding helps fill out your frame.

But for me yeah it’s worth it to hit 10%, but there are pros and cons

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay. I'm starting a tough new diet today to try and get from 20% to 10% in the next month or so.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can't go from 20% to 10% in one month. That's pretty much impossible, unless you literally starve yourself. A more realistic goal is to try and lose 1-2% per month. Remember, people who lose weight too fast by starving themsevles are prone to gain that weight back. It's healthier and better long term to restrict calories at a 300-500 kcal deficit per day and work out in the gym.

When you get closer to 10% it's going to be harder to lose fat because our bodies are built to retain fat for energy and protection purposes. It's just how it's gonna be that's why it's hard to maintain 10% year round. But if you count calories you should be able to do it

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am 73kg. Roughly 21% BF. 10% BF for me is 64kg. I think I could do 9kg in 1-2 months, particularly as i have been eating junk and drinking my calories.

The nightclubs open here in 5 weeks. Even if I can get to 15% by then I would be happy. Coming from 53% BF, it's like 'the rebirth'

[–]throwaway-aa217 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This doesn’t matter IMO. It really depends on what type of body fat we’re talking about here, but being able to see your abs doesn’t mean much, as your stomach isn’t really visible in clothes. If a girl is looking at your stomach, most likely you’re about to have sex and your belly isn’t going to be the reason she stops. Maximize your muscles that the girl can see with your clothes on.

Also, higher body fat is anabolically more productive to gaining more muscle. So I personally wouldn’t bias having lower fat, just to temporarily impress women. Think about the long game. This is just my opinion though.

[–]Frich39 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women get away w/ it for one reason and one reason only.... makeup. Don’t fool yourself. But I agree w/ everything else. Slim down and by the time your 26&up, you’re already in the top 30% due to still being in shape while everyone else let themselves go.

Quick edit just to say women that are older would prefer a guy w/ a little more muscle and understand that it may come w/ a little more fat. But we aren’t in high school and college anymore. Women don’t wanna fuck little punk rock skinny kids. They want to fuck a man.

[–]Flesh_Pillow56 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're right.. us guys have our own hamsters that prevent the acceptance of the truth. I'm a fat cunt.

[–]ham_sammich936 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Looks are definitely important for sexual attraction. But you know what’s off putting about a man with 20 extra pounds who can’t get laid? His attitude. I don’t give a fuck if you are the hottest man alive, if you walk around acting like the world or anyone owes you anything... I will take a hard pass and I will head the other direction away from your bitter self.

  1. We have a higher body fat, but don’t forget we have fat literally hanging from our chest.

  2. No, most of us don’t actually care if you have 6 pack abs. Are they a plus? Sure. But so is a girl with big tits. But flat chested girls everywhere find a partner because they have other good features and a personality.

  3. Being very over weight is always going to be not as attractive as looking HEALTHY. Healthy doesn’t mean chiseled abs. But it does mean you don’t have so much excessive fat that it actually hangs off your body. It’s hard to think a man who doesn’t take care of himself would do anything to take care of my needs.

  4. Hold yourself to the same standard you would a woman you would be attracted to. Is your personal hygiene good? Are your teeth yellow? Does your breath stink? Do you constantly have body odor? Do you bother to brush your hair or keep your hair trimmed to where it doesn’t need to be tamed? Is your body as perfect as you expect theirs to be? Do you dress in a way that if a woman bought clothes from the same store/ in the same kind of style you still be attracted to her? If you believed some of that stuff doesn’t matter when it’s applied to you, but you are trying to find a woman who has the best of all these qualities... the problem is you and your unrealistic standards of woman. Not the other way around.

  5. Very first thing I said. Your attitude is everything. Don’t walk around with a chip on your shoulder. Confidence is attractive. Even if you don’t believe it at first, fake it til you make it. Believe in yourself. Self pity and negativity won’t get you what you want. You got out what you needed to say, now do something about it, make a change.

  6. Work on yourself. You are doing it physically, awesome. But work on your mental health. Work on self love and telling yourself that you are enough. Girls who won’t give you the time of day are absolutely not worth your time either. Work on holding conversations with more people. They don’t need to be sexual by any means, just get more comfortable talking to new people so you learn how to strike up a natural conversation with someone. If you find people pull away from you the moment you start talking, figure out how to make that not happen.

I hope this helps you, or at least someone struggling.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]ham_sammich930 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol I feel sorry for you. I hope you’re life turns around soon.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m 6’4, 203 Ib. My gym is open already and 4th day in a row of going. I was 252 Ib in mid 2018. Lost 30 Ib so fast in the span of 3 months but I got too confident and cocky and since then it’s been a inconsistent journey. But I’ve felt very discipline this past two week’s, and hopefully by the end of the summer I have very low body fat. I probably won’t have much muscle but at least I’ll be skinner and will have a easy bulking cycle when school semester starts till it ends.

As of now I’m just eating less and doing Reddit’s PPL.

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A lean fit 6'4" 200 lbs is just about ideal as far as most women are concerned.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

look at all the statues from ancient times and the men were visibly lean with muscle definition and abs showing

Muscular greek statues are representations of a moral ideal, made for and by men. Though women are attracted to ideal men, the appearance of such statues does in no way support the position that women are attracted to fit men.

Viewing such art through the lens of female attraction is a complete loss of frame. All art is an expression of the artists metaphysical value judgements, and those should certainly not be ruled by whatever women happens to find physically attractive.

This isn't nitpicking, because the values of men are supremely important. However I obviously agree with the overarching point: Don't be as fat as most people are. Do your utmost to realize your full potential as a man, and remember what Socrates said: It is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.

[–]5121653810 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

All art is an expression of the artists metaphysical value judgements

If you look at Rubens there was a time when fat women were considered ideal.


2000 years earlier:


[–]Arnoux2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How do you know it was ideal? 200 years from now people would think fat women are ideal because of feminism, fat models, fat acceptance etc.

[–]sjswander946 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So true. Also everyone neglects the fact that being sub 10% makes your face more attractive, your jaw more defined and cheek bones more angular.

Here's how its done. Find a routine that has progressive overload with heavy weights and combine it with a caloric deficit. Doesn't matter if its keto IIFYM low fat ect... the one you can follow consistently is the one that will work.

The world of women is different for guys who have an amazing physique.

[–]throaway4000s1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Instead of imagining a world where beautiful women give you attention, their company, sex whatever, these guys need to put in the work.

[–]MarbleWheels10 points11 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Let me a voice out of the choir: I have been a high level rowing athlete, a fat dude and back. The difference between absolutely ripped and "decently fit" (that is passing your test by not a big margin) is huge for causal hookups/"summer venues", not much for the rest of social settings. What did kill my attractiveness level was when I had the fatty "baby face". I find this curious, I mean speaking in cavemen terms fat = the boss who always gets to eat and I myself am into rather curvy girls so of someone has a logical explanation for this I'm curious to hear. Maybe at a certain point you start to look "low testosterone"?

[–]rptastic10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're talking about evolution, I think it's pretty unlikely that in the first ~ 30,000 years of human existence that the “Boss who always gets to eat” was fat.

I think you're on the right track, but in those [hunter-gatherer] times, it was probably the difference between Caveman Chad and Emaciated Ernie - I don't think there were enough calories had to get to modern standards of fatness - but probably what we now consider 'shredded'.

The unlucky ones probably looked like Auschwitz survivors.

[–]nickonator15 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Body fat is negatively correlated with T

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Think of warriors in hunter gatherer times. Women like warriors bro. In order to pull off “the boss” look, you gotta have more than just bulk, you gotta have the whole rich mofo wealth thing going like a fat rapper or something. Otherwise women love the warriors. Think of the 20-35 year old warriors in a tribe. Lean mean killing machine. That’s why women like that look. It denotes youthful virility, athleticism, and high T.

[–]redknightcrusader-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you go back further than about 11,000 years ago (before agriculture) almost everyone was on the carnivore diet. In tropical climes more keto.

Also, they estimate that over 50% of people died in human-on-human tribal violence, most of them men. Think of tribal warfare like a cross between a triathlon and the traditional Greek sporting events (javelin, shotput, long jump, wrestling, etc...this is no accident); you have to be lean and mean to survive. The low tier dudes would either be dead or built like lean survivalists/skaters, top tier dudes would have probably been shredded athletic builds with a but more muscle—just like the gang-banger aesthetic that chicks go nuts over.

SOME tribes in northern cold climes may have gotten away with bigger bulkier builds (less long-distance hit and run raids in long winters, more decisive brawls), but they would’ve probably still been very low body fat compared with modern men.

[–]StarchRunner-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you go back further than about 11,000 years ago (before agriculture) almost everyone was on the carnivore diet.

This is pure fantasy.

In tropical climes more keto.

Since this is where plants grew, it’s actually the other way around. The more you go towards the poles was more meat eating, less plants. Thus the eskimo.

Although the ice ages of course had those arctic climates a bit further down and thus that diet too.

[–]555WeWolf4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I am currently almost exactly like you described yourself you were before. Not obese, no double chin but can't see any abs. Didn't obsess over it since i simply thought to myself that i wasn't fat and in decent shape since i'm hitting the gym (not so much because of the corona but you get the picture).

I'm curious if you could share just how big a difference did it make when it comes to girls giving you IOI's and finding you attractive when you made that last push to lower you body fat to where it is now.

[–]BumblingBeta[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The difference mainly comes from them being more friendly to you, chattier to you, smiling more, letting you off for things that you wouldn't get let off for if you looked fatter, doing better in online dating as well.

Fat for me unfortunately goes a lot to my face, and perhaps that's why it's so crucial for me in particular to not let my body fat levels drift too high. If fat goes to your face, then it's even more crucial to stay low body fat, but low body fat levels will benefit any male - which is why I made the post.

[–]555WeWolf0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was more curious about how big of an effect it was to go "normal" > really low body in comparison to obese > "normal". Was the effect pretty much linear trough out these stages or was there a bigger peek when getting to a really low body %

[–]lpfield5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you’re obese yeah lose some weight. But don’t even trip about how women see you if you want to get jacked and strong. You need a caloric surplus to get muscle and body fat is inevitable on a bulk.

[–]Andyive1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly that’s what I’m doing. 200g of protein, 350g+ of carbs, limited fats to only essentials (60g), on week two of it so far. What it really comes down to is gaining more lean muscle so that when cutting szn comes along, the fat burning will show the results. Starting at 149 and I’ve already gained a pound of lean muscle. While maintaining only gaining .2% of fat

[–]sefqef34 points35 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Relying on looks to get girls is a fool's errand. Your looks make it easier to get one talking to you, but its your personality that make them stay.

I have a fat RP friend. This dude is naturally RP, no need to read all of this sub. He has a round figure, shorter than me (about 5'6" maybe) and he is WAY better at pulling chicks than me.

As for me, I'm 6'0" at 185lbs with a little moob and flab in the gut and my sides. And yet the girls I've talked to have shown a lot more interest in me than the fit dudes they've seen around.

I used to be extremely conscious about my moobs when I was about to fuck a girl, but this fat friend of mine told me something which finally was a solution I could live with: Go and fuck a girl. When she doesn't say anything about your extra flab, you will know how much it doesn't matter.

Add that to the prime advice I got from TRP saying "Always let the girl decide why she won't fuck you; do't do it for her." and now I'm back into the world. I'm working on my tits, but in the meantime I will not be held back by my mind or my body.

[–][deleted]  (6 children) | Copy Link


[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

a lot of PUAs used to say the same thing about how they actually got laid MORE when they were more fat and gave less of a fuck about health because they weren't in such a counting calories and macros and all that shit headspace, i.e. they were more carefree which is a huge aphrodisiac obviously.

game trumps all.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link


[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

yup. it works too.

i never was as insecure about my body until i started lifting lol. i mean don't get me wrong i hated being skinny but i accepted it. Then when i started lifting i went through like a body dysmorphic phase which was hell. luckily now i'm back to not giving a fuck.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]Copperstoner0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I also got a fairly big nose and I don't mind it at all, it gives my face in my opinion a more "powerful" and a more masculine look. But that is just preference I guess.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I seem to hover around 16% bodyfat, so bit of a chub layer, but it’s over a highly developed musculature. 5’7 and 185 lbs. Recent plate told me I looked like wolverine. Facial definition is still pretty sharp. Seems to work although ideally I’d like to get down to 10-12% bodyfat and still above 180 lbs.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link


[–]sniper19050 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mass overload, username checks out.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah man lots of girls kinda like a hint of dad bod. Being muscular and manly is a definite plus, but looking like a cabana boy model, I’m still questioning whether thats ideal. Maybe bear mode is better than otter mode, know what I’m sayin?

[–]noserotoninforu19 points20 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

And if you can see your RIBS you need to do something about it too.

Train harder.

[–]R4V3NX9 points10 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Whats wrong with being able to see your ribs?

[–]noserotoninforu7 points8 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

You’re a skinny fuck. Unless you’re comfortable with it, then you’re cool. If you’re lifting like you should be though, you’re a skinny fuck.

[–]R4V3NX0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Started seriously lifting couple of months ago, started as skinny fat and am cutting atm, I can see my ribs but my fucking lower 2 abs are still full of fat lmao

[–]noserotoninforu2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Just genetics that determine what fat burns first on the body. Cardio and a deficit. You don’t burn much just lifting.

[–]R4V3NX0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

True I will implement more cardio, cheers.

[–]totallymanlytears2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You shouldn't be cutting either after only lifting a few months bro, coming from a skinny fat guy too. Build more muscle before you start cutting, being big, even if some of it is fat, feels great too, no need to rush it.

[–]R4V3NX1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I realised that cause I got really skinny on some areas but imma finish what I started now for 2-3 more weeks.

[–]totallymanlytears1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure, that way you can do more pullups/pushups too which is nice.

[–]R4V3NX0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah my pullups have increased a lot :D

[–]Chizxyy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

False. You could be fit and still have Ribs showing

[–]noserotoninforu-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not false. Top physique with 5% body fat sees no ribs around the front of the lower lat, onto the serratus (covers ribs), unless doing a pose, wherein you see the outline of the cage itself. Being fit, and having a low body fat % are not the same thing. If you can see your sternum and costal cartilage, you’re a simp.

[–]theRJMurray0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You’re not walking with your chin up, why you looking down at your ribs?!

[–]R4V3NX0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I walk with good posture, I don't get the context.

[–]theRJMurray2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It was a TRP joke. I think he means you’re too skinny if you can see your ribs.

[–]R4V3NX0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Aight makes sense now, thanks.

[–]vwowv14 points15 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's excessively unacknowledged and unappreciated that male faces on a thinned down athletic body are rare and hot as fuck. A week ago I read an article that made clear that fat female models admit they are not attracted to fat men even if they have decent looks. I commented that thin women don't either.

It's entirely true for women too. IMO, being a fat female model is really just a contest of how high a beautiful creature that is a woman can push her fat level and still be beautiful. That said, fat models don't work for me, I am simply impressed how some of their beautiful features manage to greatly offset their obesity.

Know the hot male models with the chiseled faces? Like 99% of males who could have that face have no idea all they have to do is lose enough weight for said face to vis up. The muscles in your face are as beautiful as athletic shoulders, chest, and stomach.

When I'm in the thinnest point in my cycle I often double down and eat extremely healthy. For the last month I've been eating one or two of these a day, plus some protein like steak, chicken or eggs. These salads don't have iceberg, they have romain, cabbage, kale, and little packets of things such as: nuts, seeds, sesame sticks, dried fruits, and a dressing packet. I don't eat additional carbs. The dressing packet in their Asian salad is sweet. That is my desert. That (and the veggies) are my carbs. Recently my exercise venue has been riding a bike 23 miles a day.

I'm in Southern California. These salads go for $3.99 normally, but often go on sale for 3/$10 or 2/$5. They are an absolute steal. They are 12 ounces intended to be used for several servings, yeah right. I often eat two a day. I'm the abercrombie hippo. Eating copious amount of top quality salad, plus protein, and long game exercise is by far the quickest way to become awesome, and hit the next level you've never been. Since you aren't experiencing addictive sharp glycemic pops that most food gives you (pizza, chips, etc) your appetite goes away. You deal with a mild feeling that fat burning off. The feeling of fat burning off is first tolerated, then enjoyed as your brain paths adjust and associate it with good moods, and being hot. IMO, this fat burning feeling is conflated with 'starving' by most people. Yeah right. A human can go about 30-40 days without food before dying if water is available. If I'm eating 1500 calories a day for those same 40 days, I'm not starving, shit head. Believing I'm starving is idiot entitlement.

This link shows where you can get these salads in your area (if avail). When you are at the grocery store you might have to look for them. 90% of the packaged salads other brands, usually based on iceberg. Don't get those, they are how rabbits drink water. I don't get the ones that include protein. Protein is easy, and the protein version is half the weight for same price; protein is heavy.


As an aside, when I get a sweet tooth (which is way less than most people) I whore out on diet/caffeine free soda, such as diet caffeine free sodas. coke, rite cola, diet root beer, diet cherry 7-up, diet black cherry. Another sweet tooth pass is sugar free chocolate pudding (I take the milk hit).

I'm 53 years old. I could braggart about the attention I get from all ages, all ages. I take all the sexual energy and pound my ltr's nice pussy. When I show any interest back, people (my friend circles, her friend circles, not her. Serious crab bucket explosion)'s heads start exploding and I get shunned. I must expand here. Like 90% of my friend-quantence circles have mad respect for me. But it's not that simple. Women in the circle start showing interest that I don't acknowledge, and the men totally respect me for it, except they have congnitive dissonace that renders them bitter and confused.The big problem always is the organizers of whatever circle i'm in Always seems to be fat women and beta male that that are confused but feel obligated treat me like a preditor simply because the girls that involve themselves with me are half my age. I don't have everything figured out, but I'm rocking diet, exercise, height (6'2") and pretty high on looks. What I can't figure out is how 98% of people I walk by on the street ignore me like I'm anyone, and about 2% lose their shit, or start doing what I could easily call 'creeping on me'. Not creeping though, I love it.

[–]StarchRunner0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's excessively unacknowledged and unappreciated that male faces on a thinned down athletic body are rare and hot as fuck.

I’m guessing you mean something like a male gymnast’s body if you google image.

[–]vwowv4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The pic I'm linking is quick random pic, so don't be too critical. I look nothing like this dude, btw.


I'm saying a lot of fat people with fat faces and bad grooming (think austin powers movie) have no idea they could look like the guy in this picture. They've never seen themselves thin so they've never seen their face thin, so it never accured to them to wear a rocking hearcut to match.

This guy isn't even that hot. There's guys with would be ambercombie model faces that are fat with fat faces that have no clue an ambercombie model is the thin version of them.

You don't even have to have that hot of a face. If your soso face is thin, you are going to radiate more sexuality than the ambercombie model worthy fat dude with fat face and a bad haircut.

Why do I find wording so hard right now. I think you get the idea.

tldr; People who have been fat all their lives or fat for years have no idea how hot their face would be if they were thin. The biggest joke is the fat/fat faced guys who could be/have been supermodels. Average looking guys that get thin will look pretty hot because thin face and healthy is hot, especially in this ocean of fat people in society.

[–]5121653810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

male faces on a thinned down athletic body

I would argue that there are some thin bodies with big faces, and big faces with thin bodies. Some people have big head size.

[–]wanderer7795 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the ab test is a little too severe. Especially for guys who haven't built a decent amount of muscle, who are mostly seen in clothes.

[–]1empatheticapathetic3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's motivation to get us to make real change.

[–]LowkeyLOKi692 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Any tips or links on how to do this? I know caloric defecit, but I switch weekly between bulking and cutting.

[–]jamesbond05122 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Although your looks are part of SMV, learning to use your mindset is way above vanity.

Learning how to be aware and determining your values gives you qualities that many man lack.

You can be the boy toy you'd like to be but woman know when a man is above their level mentally.

Most of the times you're going to be dealing with bimbos so yes, a great body will increase your chances but a fat guy with wits and smarts will have you be the laughing stock of the party if you neglect personality.

Only reason I'm saying this is because I know guys who've only focused on looks and trust me, they're not that cool to be around.

Learning how to prioritize is essential. So yes, love yourself in the mirror but also focus on understanding what type of character you want and build it. This world lacks character at the moment.

Everyone wants easy money and plethora of whores. No one wants to keep learning or being aware of their surrounding.

[–]Andyive1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Eh, I was about 10% body fat when i was an XC runner. I was definitely a little more jacked for an XC runner tho due to genes, broad shoulders and wide upper back (inverted triangle figure), sure it helped but then I’d be too skinny as I was only 138. Now I’m 150 with 14% bf cuz I stopped running but I’m bulking to about 160-162 now because I want to be able to cut down to 150 wirh about 10% body fat. Working out so far

[–]GraphiteIsInPencils1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Serious question what if I have major stretch marks from letting myself go? Will that make a huge dent in my physique attractiveness?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So 13-15% is the ideal fat percentage for men?

[–]Zech4riah1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're probably higher body fat than you think.

Yes, guys tend estimate their BF 4-5% lower than it really is.

Even a man with a lot of muscle looks unattractive to women if he is above a certain level of body fat.

This. It also applies to guys who are "bulking up". When a big bulked up guy seems "good" (bigger is better, right?) and intimidating in the eyes of other men. Most women don't get so attracted even tho you are having a lot of muscle under the fat. That bloated bro bulk look isn't nearly as attractive to women that men think.

Personally I've find my BF % sweetspots to be:

  • 12% from the point of strength, stamina and functionality. If I stand in front of mirror without flexing, I can just barely see 6-pack but if I flex I can see it clearly. This BF % could be also more attractive for women than ripped 9% (next bullet point)

  • 9% that ripped look, looks good on the summer on the beach but I feel only a bit weaker strengthwise but wouldn't go to a BJJ competition on this BF % because stamina is noticeable weaker. I can see my abs without flexing. Some girls get really turned on by this. There is a certain niche of girls who really dig ripped look but then majority of girls may even feel like "it's a bit too much".

Also there is individual differences on where the fat stores itself. Some guys store more in the lower part of their body and some more around belly so if you try to evaluate someones BF %, you must look into it as whole.

[–]acos121 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

  1. Hair
  2. Optimal body fat %
  3. Tan
  4. Teeth

The top 4 properties you can change and determine 80% of your looks.

[–]throaway4000s2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Teeth as in get them whitened and straight?

[–]ACE-JHN0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes!! game changer. When you talk they definitely notice and comment on nice teeth.

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ahh shit. My teeth have moved a little bit since I had braces as I did t wear my retainer. Sounds like I'm getting them on again

[–]opper-hombre11 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Fuck. This is me. Been working out the last month or so and trying to eat less and eat healthier. Most of my fat is in my gut and face.

Anything else I can do to increase fat loss? Besides what I’m already doing?

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Are you drinking only water? Are you getting eight hours sleep a night?

[–]opper-hombre10 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Only drink water, and probably getting around 7 hours of sleep a night

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well what do you estimate your BF% to be now?

[–]opper-hombre10 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Probably around 18%. 155 lbs, 5’10.

[–]throaway4000s0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am 5'10 too. My calculator shows you're around 18%. To be 10% for us is 63.8kg. So close but so far.

[–]BrownGummyBear0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Increasing your muscle mass will increase your basal metabolic rate which in turns means you will burn more calories “on stand by” than if you had less muscles. So lift as well and controlling bf % will get easier

[–]opper-hombre10 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I lift 4x times a week, upper body, and run 3-4 miles the other days instead of working on legs lol. But I understand it’s a marathon, not a sprint

[–]BrownGummyBear1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I became a daily bicycle rider (mainly commute, I do pedal at 85-90% effort though I don’t stroll around town) around two years ago. My legs have never been this big and I barely do any lifting for legs nowadays (I cycle often and really push myself though). Give it a try if you feel like you could get into it, doesn’t have to be anything fancy my bicycle is cheap. It’s a win win, you get shredded and get some leg gains if done with intensity

[–]mandathor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hm. Cant a lot of muscle make it look like your not getting any and have to try hard?

[–]Raw_American_Steel2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Facts. Perma bulking bloated guys are dumb as shit

[–]_-resonance-_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Being fat is unattractive. Being fit is attractive. Wow, OP.

[–]Retribution1010 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Imo it's always been about confidence as I have fluctuated from somewhat fat to shredded. When my confidence is highest and in my case sometimes being shredded has nothing to do with confidence, communication skills and psychological. So I've had equal success with woman when my confidence is on. No matter what my body looks like.

[–]Donnage0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've heard that you can't see some people's abs no matter how skinny they get.

[–]iamaiimpala2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

With the exception of someone that was previously extremely overweight and has a lot of excess skin on their stomach, I doubt there are people that could lose body fat and increase muscle mass without eventually showing muscle definition.

[–]undextrois0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

being fat has nothing todo with pickup skills but looking good at areas that needs improvement is the best way to go

but ofcourse one has to trim down for health reasons and inner game

ive seen fat guys pull girls in the club without issues at all.


[–]Wingflier0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know, it seems like the opposite. A woman that is chubby is considered a bit disgusting and lacking in self-control by society, but men with a beer belly have "dad bods" and that can be considered attractive anyway.

[–]Gadsden_Patton0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A fun exercise is to look up one's Golden Ratio measures using an online calculator. This is the ideal, more or less, for women. Take the actual measure for each body part and divide it by the ideal measure. You will find your waist is probably most off proportionately.

[–]AwkwardHolocaustPun0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is true if there is a muscular foundation but novices shouldn't chase low % instead of long term development

[–]kalisto30100 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't tell that to Patrice O'Neal. I hear you though and it's true. That's why you see so many hot chics with average looking guys who're skinny. 100% true.

[–]hankoBreadCrumbs890 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well some body help me out here because I’ve been calorie counting for 2months and I’ve lost 15 lb. I don’t work out much but plan to do it when I get to 160. I’m 5’9. I attempted to doing body recomposition and I just didn’t like how my body kept staying at 185. I’m currently 196 and my aim is just lose 35 more pounds and then get more serious at the gym.

[–]PM__ME__STEAM_CODES0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What if you have a small frame? Doesn't being more bulky increase attractiveness?

[–]mr_Tobbor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol. Women just want one muscle! It moves forward-backward and is attached to your body.

[–]_sadboyloko0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As I learned in life, there is much more to a person and fitness than body fat. I'm at 12% last time I went on one of those fancy scales, but even though I workout regularly, I still fall into the SkinnyFat / DYEL category.

[–]cafeitalia0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Depends on the age. If you are in your 40s and still fit, you don't need the six pack abs, or the big muscles pumped with roids. Looking fit with minimal belly fat is all that you will need as long as you are established in your life and career. Meaning having your own house, good income, dngaf attitude, being able to take vacations without worrying about costs etc, mainly not worrying about money at all because you have enough of it and living your own life the way you want to live it will bring you any girl without a problem.

No relationships, just plates, and girls will be willing to be that without question.

[–]FuckJanitors0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow did you just make a decent post instead of whining like a little bitch for once?

[–][deleted]  (8 children) | Copy Link


[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I get more attention from girls being 210 with 15% BF than I did at 190 and 10%.

Don't gain another 5% -- you won't like the results.

[–][deleted]  (6 children) | Copy Link


[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

The whole idea if bulking is ridiculous. The last thing a guy should ever do is intentionally grow fat cells.

[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy Link


[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

In which case you're better off thin.

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy Link


[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

A young twenty something guy can often get away with a bit of extra fat on his body and (more importantly) his face. As he ages being lean becomes more and more important.

Strong-fat 25 year olds can look OK. Strong-fat 45 year olds look like shit.

Don't go down that road.

[–]babayega0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

100% brother. I always cringe when newbies ask for lifting advice and get told to "eat more", it's like these fuckers are trying to sabotage you. 99% of the time you will get fat and look worse, all that muscle and strength you put on is not helping your attractiveness if its covered by fat.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]tronahate0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Paris is a living hell, as I'm working in the tourism field, I see a lot of foreigners. So I compare the foreigners couples with parisian couples. Jesus paris guys are always 1 or 2 pts above the girls they are dating. Honestly this is the worst in France and maybe worldwide idk xd.

Kudos to italians and brazilians, couples are somehow always in the guy favor, mamen dating hot cheeks.

[–]HeckinGoodTimes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I needed to read this. Thank you.

[–]tchower0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yuck, men that chase fat woman? Disgusting!

[–]IBETITALL4200 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Idk man it depends, i've been bulking for 7 months, and haven't cut yet lol. And I've gotten more ioi's than I was skinny fat.

I tend to feel more comfortable in a pumped up/bulking frame. It makes me look huge, and really ups my frame.

[–]CAPIreland0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

LoL, this is the worst thing I've read on here. Women will fuck you if you're strong, confident, and don't give a fuck. I swear that I've had more success since getting rid of my 6 pack, because women find it less intimidating, but can still tell I'm strong as fuck.

So the actual lesson is: if you want a 6 pack, go for it. If you don't, don't fucking worry. As long as you're a version of yourself you are proud of, then you're golden.

[–]Mazzaleen10 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, I'm at 9% bodyfat but I'm 5ft 9 and weigh about 9.5 stones. Cant wait for the gym to reopen

[–]BumblingBeta[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

9% body fat is very lean and more than adequate. If you have decent muscle there. But it sounds like you don't at that low weight.

[–]Mazzaleen10 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats exactly why I'm yearning for the gym to reopen. I started gym in January and was making gains and muscle. I'm aiming to hit 12 stones for October

[–]hollywood220 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unless this guy is into dudes, don't take his advice. I mean I don't think anyone prefers someone who is unhealthy and obese, but extra body fat is not a deal breaker generally, unless as stated you are obese. Not to say your are undeserving of love by any means, but that minimizes the dating pool a bit.

[–]VultureGamer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yup, that's right. Most gyms have the equipment to measure your body fat accurately, you need to have around 10% body for six-pack to be visible iirc. It's also free. Not only you look better but also are way healthier.

[–]miserlyblasphemer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That test depends on your body type I suppose. I've met men with no abs who are outrageously skinny. If you're too self conscious around women it makes them (more) self conscious too. Handsome men can get as batsh*t crazy as beautiful women imo.

[–]JW_20 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for posting. Advice for someone who is lean everywhere but the midsection? I don’t drink alcohol, so cut the sweets?

[–]BumblingBeta[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well I assume you're lifting first of all? If not, you should do that.

Apart from that, cut all sugary carbs - they have no nutritional value whatsoever. Cut down on other carbs until you notice a difference - for example, you probably have something like chicken, rice and veg for your main evening meal, right? Cut down on the portion of rice, because veg is already carbs. Obviously keep enough carbs so that you have enough energy to get through your day. Don't go overboard with carb cutting.

Minimise dairy consumption. If you add cheese to lots of your meals, eat less of that.

Cut out heavily salted foods like salted nuts, because they give you a bloated look that makes you look like you're fat.

Also do more HIIT cardio. There seems to be this myth that you can't do cardio while you're bulking because it impacts your gains, which is nonsense.

[–][deleted]  (7 children) | Copy Link


[–]Sumsar017 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can get under 15% with normal deiting. Eating less isnt more expensive.

[–]Raw_American_Steel1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or just run 5k 3 times a week and do full body workouts 2 times a week and eat clean. Averages to less than 1 hour a day of workouts.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

18% is not attractive. Calories in calories out. Cutting down to 10-15% BF just takes proper dieting.

[–]bottled_butts-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Being under 15% is not enough. I was at 13%, repping 260, chicks just thought i was fat... it just matters how slim your face looks.

Im at 11% now and things are better but under 10% is the where you need to be.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How did you get to such low body fat

[–][deleted]  (9 children) | Copy Link


[–]pigeon_exe1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, would you rather be in the 90% or the 10%?

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link


[–]cecil_demented1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

this is true but i sure as shit wouldn’t be mad at having abs to go with everything else.

[–]blurkiller0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

All women want guys with good personally, most women are with guys who have dadbods because they can't have a guy with good personality and good body, even if they do it's hard to keep them. I have decent looks and I see women eyeing me up as they walk with their boyfriend or husband all the time. I have something that all women deep inside want, something they can't have for long, and their guy doesn't have it.

[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy Link


[–]blurkiller-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, looks doesn't matter for relationships although it does give power to the person that's more attractive if it's a significant difference. For pure primal lust, looks > personality. We are inherently animals when looked on a simpler scope, the species want the best for it's own species, beauty is value, I'm sure you can do the math now.

[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy Link


[–]blurkiller-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Majority of communication is done via body language, get your facts checked. You say "we" don't mate whoever looks the best, cause most of the time you can't because there is a relative difference in SMV AND RMV. An ugly duckling would be able to fuck a hottie, doesn't matter whichever one is male or female, but there can't be any relationship. We have sexual needs, the more you need it the crazier you act, if your girlfriend could fuck brad pitt, she would ghost you and fuck him, and then come back to you once he cums and dumps her.

[–]BrownGummyBear-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

3 years alcohol free. Have literally vaporized dozens of ounces of weed during that time = 0 calories ;)

[–]LotBuilder-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not entirely. There are plenty of attractive women that like bigger guys. You need to be tall to pull it off. I am 6’5 and I do way better at 20% body fat than when I got down to 12%. The type of girls I pull are simply not attracted to a sub 10% body fat guy under 6’2.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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