It's the wheel and not the hamster.

June 24, 2015

TL;DR We have met the enemy and it is monogamy.

Downvote warning. Shields to full.

I get it. I get it and I'm with you.

But maybe it's one of the givens that's wrong. Maybe it happens before any of the givens makes to any of our brains.

It's not the women that are bad, spiteful, ungrateful, hypergamous, gold digging, lying, whore bitches that only open their thighs when they see an opportunity and can't be trusted to keep a promise.

Maybe it's the culture. It's the drivel we've been led to believe. It's monogamy and it's various permutations. Maybe it's what WE'VE been led to believe. That your woman is YOUR woman. Maybe that's the fallacy.

If you buy into Sex At Dawn and their evidence with primates and primitive culture its that we've been led by the nose down a path that is contrary to our natures. We weren't built for monogamy, no how no way. Men, women, others. Nope. That came in when we got property that we could bequeath and so we needed to develop a lineage. If your woman wasn't monogamous then who was this kid you were giving your land to? By that account, then is when the troubles began.

But if you look at primates or more primitive cultures that doesn't exist. Everybody fucks everybody. That spreads the genes, everybody's happy. Nobody gets bored, men get the young ones, women get the studs, and if you don't share and put out you are considered selfish and ostracized.

But instead, we've bought into monogamy, all of us. And so there has to be a hamster that justifies primitive behavior because it's contrary to the culture and norms and society.

So it's not just her. We have set her up to fail. But monogamy is the real enemy here.

Have at me now.

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Post Information
Title It's the wheel and not the hamster.
Author SpyderMaybe
Upvotes 9
Comments 21
Date June 24, 2015 5:39 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/TheRedPill
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[–]RPSigmaStigma8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm with you 100%. Monogamy Doesn’t Work. Your Girlfriend Is A Raging Slut! How Does That Make You Feel? I think this is the real lesson behind the red pill. So many guys here are stuck in the bargaining phase, thinking they can compile lists of "red flags" and "LTR qualities" hoping to find a girl who will never cheat or leave them. It's futile. And I don't even mean in an "enjoy the decline" way, it's always been this way. The history of human culture has always been semi-monogamy tempered by infidelity.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The numbers from that article were taken in the modern age. Marraige is an instituion that goes back thousands of years. It used to be pretty common that women were literally never alone with men that weren't their husband, they were surrounded by their children, and sisters-in-law and mother-in-law all the time. There was no ability to cheat. Futhermore, considering women who have only had sex with their spouse will stay with that spouse 80% of the time, I think that modern social conditions have a lot more to do with the fall of monogamy than anything else.

[–]RPSigmaStigma0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well yeah, those are modern numbers, the point of the link was to describe the reality we live in today. But that doesn't mean it's much different than in the past. There is mounting evidence that virtually no species is truly monogamous. The best examples of monogamy usually given from the animal kingdom are various species of nesting birds who will in fact form pair-bonds, but recent evidence has shown that both the males and females will regularly mate outside the pair. As for historical human monogamy, the fact that genetically we can prove that we have far fewer male ancestors than female ancestors demonstrates that a minority of males successfully breed with the majority of females; the oft cited 80/20 rule. If you really think there was some gold age of monogamy where people rarely cheated and stayed together forever, you haven't really swallowed the red pill.

[–]MattyAnon2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


So it's not just her. We have set her up to fail. But monogamy is the real enemy here.

Of course monogamy isn't in our nature - that's why we have marriage. A deal that men and women were relatively happy with.

But without social shaming and with no-fault divorce, women are free to use marriage as a multi stage financial opportunity.

Has anyone else noticed... alimony used to be to support a woman who couldn't otherwise support herself (no jobs, welfare or potential marriage for old women).

Now that there are jobs welfare and remarriage potential, alimony has changed to compensation for lack of earnings while raising children. (Men asking for compensation for the money they put in, for being at work all day, and for missing out on their children is ... shit, sorry, what was I thinking, took the focus off women there for a split second.)

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think you have this backwards. Lifetime monogamy is so wide spread as an Ideal, that there is no way that it is not in our basic natures to some extent. It is most like the default "when times are tough". Women need protection so much that they will not play hardball to get the best genes, because doing so could land them in hot water.

The current conditions (that is, extreme prosperitry and plenty for everyone) mean that there is no hot water to fall into. Therefore sercuring optimal genes is not highly risky behavior that could get her and her offspring killed either directly or by starvation or lack of defense against predators.

There was a really good, detailed post about this posted a few weeks ago that goes into greater detail.

[–]StManTiS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's all about the times. Most mammals exhibit monogamy when food is scarce or the world is dangerous. Neither of those is true today.

[–]unassumingusername70 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think we instinctively think we can do monogamy, because trying for a few years benefitted your children in the past. So we're inclined to believe we'll love this person and stand by them forever, but it's only a useful delusion.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe it's instinct. I believe it may appear that way to some because by the time someone is old enough to think about the situation, they're already programmed by Disney and other contemporary media.

Looking elsewhere in the animal kingdom, monogamy is not the norm.

[–]favours_of_the_moon6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just because everybody's banging everybody doesn't mean I should be lied to, shamed, bullshitted, stabbed in the back, etc.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The Book - The Rational Male - really digs into oneitis and the bullshit concept of "The One". Really gets at the core of how society has crafted everyone to think that there is some all magical one to solve all of our problems instead of looking at each relationship we form individually and assessing them correctly.

I'm pretty sure it and the audio book are in that book thread on the front page.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What we've met is a level of selfishness and narcissism that I fear might be impossible to overcome.

The problem is the ridiculous notion that personal happiness and self esteem are the most valuable and important facets of society. You do things for your children and for the future, but everyone's so wrapped up in short term validation and happiness that they've forgotten about it.

You fucking and marrying some hot girl with no motherly instincts and then bitch that you have a shit wife is the same as a woman who cheats on her husband for the sake of some passion and excitement.

Both of you are fucking society over for the sake of selfishness.

[–]Whisper1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

DUH. Thank you, Captain Obvious. What would we do without you?

Of course monogamy isn't "natural". Why do you think societies had to spend so much trouble enforcing it?

But what if I told you that "natural" and "a good idea" aren't the same thing? What then?

Female monogamy has been imposed by every successful society, because societies that didn't impose female monogamy weren't successful. Without female monogamy, men don't financially support children. This is fine if you are hunters and gatherers. Not so fine if you have a civilization and things like money and specialization and an economy.

When women stop being monogamous, men stop committing to them. When men don't commit to women, men don't raise children. When men don't raise children, you don't have a civilization anymore.

Our instincts don't account for this, because our genes don't care about civilization. We, however, do. We can prove this because every time one of the few remaining hunter-gatherer cultures is exposed to civilization, it vanishes after a few generations. Monogamy may suck for super alpha dudes, because we have less sluts to fuck and sire bastards on, but even super alpha dudes like having grocery stores full of food, cars to get from place to place, an internet, and so on.

[–]SpyderMaybe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice. Sir Captain Obvious to you my good man.

[–]BrunoOh3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe it's the culture.

It's culture that has fully enabled the Feminine Imperative. Women are just acting to their base instincts now.

Everybody fucks everybody.

Nope, you'll get harem systems.

But monogamy is the real enemy here.

No, it is serial monogamy, the female preferred form of promiscuity, that is the problem. If anything, lifetime monogamy would solve all these problems very well.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Nope, you'll get harem systems."

Oh for sure. Only blue pillers would believe in a utopian society with free love and sex for all.

Humans are viruses so we act accordingly. The lie we were told was that we were decent moral beings. We certainly are not. Even the hippies will fuck you over if you let them.

[–]angryuser_trp0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Alright. Let's pretend we allow for legal polygamy. I don't think women are gonna bathe in dicks and all the men are going to be ok with it.

A more likely scenario that would happen is the muslim model - a man having multiple women. In this case, the women have even less chance of getting dicked on the side without (potentially lethal) repercussions.

Why would this be most likely to happen? A woman with kids has diminished options for successful career compared to a man. The father is not able to breastfeed the baby, so obviously he is not staying home. And once they start crawling, you're still required to keep an eye on them so they don't injure themselves somehow. With multiple kids this process takes years. During all this time the man can build a career. Due to this alone it is highly unlikely that one woman would have multiple men - she and the kid is dependant on the father to provide for them. Why would the other men waste time on supporting woman that is currently nursing someone else's kid when they could get their own? Not to mention that the sex is not going to be very frequent nor good due to levels of exhaustion the mother reaches after a few months of having to get up every 3 hours during the night to breastfeed the baby.

Unless, of course, the man is willingly opting out of the gene pool and is fine with little to no sex - in which case the man is by all accounts BP as fuck. We all know how well do relationships work for BP men.

I just don't see how would women be able to score any victory on this model.

[–]monzzter2210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I see exactly what you are saying.

I'm that guy that tells everyone I know, if a girl I'm seeing tries to fuck you, let me know, then fuck her. I don't get jealous, I don't care, my best friend could fuck my sons mother right now and I wouldn't give a fuck. Just don't make me fucking hang out with her.

But... How the hell are we supposed to be anything other than bonobos in a jungle without structured social rules, especially relating to mating? We do all sorts of unnatural things: wearing clothes, doing anything other than hunting for our food, drive cars, talk to each other on reddit, not get eaten by tigers before we die of old age. Just because something isn't natural in the classical sense doesn't mean it isn't helpful. I mean, the safety we have makes men long for action, but would you recommend ending that safety for that reason?

I see both sides, I live the former, but I wouldn't want to see monogamy thrown out the window for society as a whole. Partly because when there are rules that I can break I have a leg up, but partly because I enjoy being a human in civilization and I do think it makes our lives better, even though it makes other aspects a little more difficult.

[–]Cyralea0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Monogamy isn't innately biological. Quite the opposite, we are primed to seek multiple partners, both men and women.

That said, we owe greater civilization to it. I wrote about this a while back. Without monogamy we would still be in primitive hunter-gatherer type communities. We literally owe our very way of life to the unnatural assortive pairing that is monogamy. Feminists are destroying that framework and undoing everything that made our lifestyles comfortable today.

Monogamy isn't the enemy. It's the necessary evil.

[–]SpyderMaybe[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That it is a necessary evil is an interesting perspective. It fulfills a role, facilitates a way of life that we have accepted and embraced in order to grow civilization.

I never thought of RP as a agent of the status quo. Or maybe it is truly anachronistic. I always thought of this a progressive movement that is the harbinger of change in society and social norms.

I'm not so sure we can have it both ways. To be evolutionary and nostalgic?

But I suppose that advocating for non-monogamy is nostalgic as well. Then we get to compete for whose nostalgia is bigger.

I guess that is a question. Is RP evolutionary or nostalgic? or maybe that doesn't matter.

[–]Cyralea1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

RP isn't an advocacy group, it's a pragmatic set of principles to best navigate the current state of affairs, along with a sober look at the way the world operates.

There is no deriving "ought" from "is". Monogamy is the best social device we've ever constructed for advancing the quality of life for the average person. Literally the bedrock of civilization. That it's being discarded like a used tampon is unfortunate, but TRP doesn't advocate necessarily changing it in a reactionary fashion. We simply adjust our strategy to the one that maximizes personal happiness.

TRP'ers can simultaneously acknowledge the reality of evolutionary psychology and pine for the days where civilization was working in an efficient, albeit unnatural manner.

[–]Skank_of_America-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let me just state for the record here that I don't actually believe in monogomy. The ideology of exclusivity probably hurts society more than it helps. There are many things that people can offer to each other that become restricted because someone has put up artificial barriers around another person's ability to form relationships with new people. What? I can't talk to some girl who is pretty cool cause some guy thinks that I'm going to try and bone her? So the fuck what anyway? It's just sex. I'd be more worried if she was forming an emotional bond than simply having sex. Furthermore, science has proven that the human vagina contracts back to a normal diameter even after prolonged usage. That's one of the main reasons guys don't like the idea of being with a 'slut'. If a guy's dick shrank with prolonged exposure to vagina, would females go just as ape-shit over him being a used-up piece of garbage?

There are varying degrees of fidelity anyway and people can construe cheating as simply being good friends with someone else. How you draw the line is actually a matter of taste and is a personal decision that only you and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ can come to terms with after consulting with your partner.

Our society would grow up a hell of a lot faster if betas were given more access to the plentiful poon which surrounds each of us daily and they would figure out how to have mature relationships, instead of becoming an insta-tard around the opposite sex, due to inhibited contact. So deprived are betas of healthy relationships that they can't think straight and often jump to trying to fondle a girl out of sheer excitement. Opening up the gates to having open relationships would be healthy for these people.

Bottom line, I think the human experience is about learning to relate to each other and exact the best out of the people we come into contact with. Monogomy only hurts this process and inhibits us. I would like to find out more about how other people live and learn from them and this is a process which is stifled by other men claiming property on poon like fucking Iwo Jima. You notice how in that picture, there are MULTIPLE MEN working together to raise the flag? Grow the fuck up and let me help put the flag-pole in the ground too. Then we can each talk to each other about the great things about each other.

Other bottom line. Alphas spin plates for diversity and to become well-rounded. That's the idea of open relationships, only for some stupid reason, many here on TRP still cling to exclusivity like angry babies before having their milk bottles taken away, because they still feel like having it makes them more manly. It's a huge double standard. Spin plates as if you're into polyamory, but when you find the 'one', you throw away all that logic and try and be the only one, and if the time comes that she cheats, the only way to save your private Ryan's dignity is to walk away from all that you established and going AWAL. Polyamory is the only way to go in the first place, and you don't need exclusivity anymore, because of DNA testing, so just give up your childish delusions about monogomy and be smart and mature about life.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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