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Many people just don't "get it" and nor will they -- What BluePill and HR has in common

March 6, 2014
98 upvotes

Over in /r/alreadyred TRPsubmitter posted a classic piece: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-ii-posturetalk-powertalk-babytalk-and-gametalk/

It's a really read if you haven't read it already. It basically breaks communication into 4 primary ways of communication with 3 different players. Even though that article doesn't specifically dive too deeply into the subject, but to me the most important aspect is the "clueless" character.

Maybe it's because I'm the type that is very transparent and when someone says something stupid in regards to a social interaction, I may not say anything, but I think, "is this person serious? Are they really that dumb? Do they not see the context of that discussion?

Coincidentally, as I type this, I actually just got a PM that describes this type of person perfectly:

I was talking about something saying how the reason people say a teenager shouldn't take steroids isn't because they aren't responsible enough to use them, similar to our belief on why teenagers shouldn't use alcohol, but it can have serious long term impacts at that age. In which the person responds with, "Yeah, but alcohol is bad for you too."

Now, any competitively social person can realize why all I could do was raise my brow and roll my eyes. All I can think is, "Do you not understand what I'm saying with the bigger picture? Do you not understand what I'm saying beyond just my words?"

Another good example of this type of person would be: let's say you're hanging out with your buddy. You ask him how he it went with that girl he was with last night, and he responds with, "Well, it was whatever." You obviously understand that he's saying it was just no big deal, but that it didn't go great. If it did go great he would word it differently. So you respond with, "Yeah man, I feel you. Telling you, women are bitches. Can't win 'em all." Now any compitent person can see what you just said, which was, basically, "I understand what you're saying, and you can't win every date, and you should just go on another date."

However, your typical "clueless" person doesn't read the situation the same way. The only thing the clueless person understands is the face value of the conversation. The first part is that your friend doesn't want to talk about it, and it's impossible to know how the date actually went, and that you just called all women bitches. The subtle communication relayed between the two parties is completely mysterious to them. They only know what was verbally put right in their face, and they interpret it as exactly that. And now according to her, you just called women bitches, which is entirely offensive. Does that remind you of a certain group of people that only look at TRP with at face value not understanding the context of what we are saying?

Another quick example is an article on the front page when the police said that people can't lay down at the park because they are a safety hazard since people can trip over them. In reality, what he was saying was, "I need an excuse to prevent the hobos from taking over the park. But I need a politically correct reason to appease the clueless. But you guys all know the real reason. I don't need to say it."

A final quick example of this is, since I'm watching JRE right now, is they are playing a video that's really stupid video and Joe just says, "Hey this video is scary turn it off, I can't watch it any more." What he's really saying is, "This video is stupid, turn it off." But he's able to communicate the idea while giving the person who put on the video an out without looking stupid for putting on a stupid video.

What's great about this form of communication is that it allows all parties to explain what they need to explain, but at the same time don't have to go on record saying it. Women are great at using this form of communication btw. Often, they'll do something, you'll know the context isn't right, but she'll say, "I never SAID I'd have sex with him! I just said I'd go meet up for some drinks. Why are you freaking out? I never said anything wrong!"

It's the same way when you ask to have sex with a girl and you invite her to your room to check out your guitar collection. Any reasonable person knows what this means. It means we are going back to have sex. However, if she declines, you have an out. You never asked for sex, you just wanted to show her your guitar collection and she wasn't interested.

But let's say she does say okay. You get there, play her a song her two, then go in for the move, grab her ass, and she freezes with shock. You then say, "I thought we were here for a reason?" And she responds with, "OMG I can't believe this. You didn't say we were coming here for sex. I didn't give you any expressed consent! We didn't talk about this before!" Does this attitude remind you of any specific group? And I assure you, it's not just bluetards. Ever invite a girl back to your place and she starts talking about sex, and then even says, "When we get back to your place, we should have sex," in a non-joking way. Now a rational person thinks, "Yeah, no shit." But to this group of people, this is literally how they see the world. Words are literal, and communication must be direct. They are completely oblivious to implications and indirect verbal communication.


Now, let's raise it up just to a higher level. Let's involve TRP. TRP, without doubt, is mainstream within the more fun and exciting parts of society. However, it's not talked about directly. Because by talking about it directly removes all possibility of plausible deniability. Every one knows it exists, and they communicate it on a subtle level, but they don't dare directly communicate it. Because if a "clueless" person were to hear what was said, they'd flip shit. Event though the "power talkers" talk about TRP all the time in their subtle ways, to the "clueless" person, TRP is NEVER talked about. To the "clueless" person, the world is very literal, and they've never heard their hot friend talk about getting a guy to orbit her, or talk about why Chase being an asshole is so hot.

Last summer I had to learn this the hard way. I broke the powertalk rule and decided to be direct with a "clueless" person (BTW, direct talk, just like it says in the article, should ONLY be done between two people not in or around a clueless person. Direct talk around a clueless person can be dissasterious. The clueless lives the world with a different understanding. Which is exactly why TRP pisses them off so much).

I was at an outdoor club with a few friends, and one of the girls was new. She started saying something about how this guy creeped her out blah blah blah... So I called her out for not actually being creeped out by the guy, but she just wanted to brag about guys hitting on her to the group. And even though she's a feminist, she loves it when guys treat her like a sexual object. This ended up spiraling into a feminism argument and got no where.

Interestingly though, the more attractive ladies of the group didn't even dare participate. Not because they had nothing to say, but I blew everyone's cover. I was talking about the things we shouldn't talk about. The hot girls did enjoy being sexual objects, but they wouldn't dare come out and say it to defend me. That would make them look like sluts in the eyes of the "clueless". Instead all they can do is remain silent. They couldn't say that they do enjoy the dynamics of guys chasing after them, taking advantage of guys buying them drinks, and getting treated nice wherever they went. Saying that would make them sound like selfish bitches.

Eventually it blew over and a few hours later we part ways and stop for some pizza. Eventually I bring it back up and say, "Was I wrong? Seriously?" And the only response was, "It's not that you're wrong, it's that you're playing with fire." Basically saying, "Senator, you're right, but it's not something you can talk about." But again, with powerspeak.


And this is the reason why TRP is so hated. Reddit is filled to the brim with these BP "clueless" types. It's the nature of this type of platform. Us using direct straight talk, out in the open, is just like my story before. It's going to piss off the clueless who don't "get it".

Instead, the ones that do "get it" don't really talk about it. Instead they lurk, read, and add value to their lives. When they go around Reddit, they aren't trying to spread it, because they know it's not reasonable. Sure, sometimes they will, but rephrase TRP ideas in a way in which Reddit just eats it up. If you read the article, this is called baby talk when dealing with the "clueless". It's cleaning it up and telling them the idea in the way they need to hear it. They are incapable of straight talk, since only powertalkers can do that effectively. Instead, they use "baby talk".

Which is exactly why -- and I'm occassionally guilty of it -- stop worrying about convincing bluetards. Just stop. It's not that you're wrong, it's that they just don't "get it". They are physically incapable of getting it. You'll never be able to change their mind, ever. On the internet, or real life. The "clueless" shouldn't be wasting your time -- this is the matrix bitch. They are the hoard that are to be used. When you talk with them, you don't touch these sort of subjects. You don't tell your bro "women are bitches" after a bad date when they are around. You have to baby talk them, and never actually deal with them. They are the social equivalent of an uneducated surf class. It's not that they are bad people, it's just that they are best used as means to an end, and not to be brought into a philosophical debate. You'll never be able to bring them up to your level no matter how hard you try.

EDIT: As always, I don't proof read. Any typos or lack of clarity you notice -- kiss my ass. Edit: Okay, I fixed a handful of typos.

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Post Information
Title Many people just don't "get it" and nor will they -- What BluePill and HR has in common
Author puaSenator
Upvotes 98
Comments 36
Date March 6, 2014 6:42 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit /r/TheRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/many-people-just-dont-get-it-and-nor-will-they.12224
https://theredarchive.com/post/12224
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1zp8eo/many_people_just_dont_get_it_and_nor_will_they/
Comments

[–]throwaway-o47 points48 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

TLDR: TRP offends people, because we break the tacit social agreement of keeping sexual and relationship truths taboo, by discussing these truths openly rather than through the expected protocols (falsehoods, implications, signaling of social status).

[–]Wrong_Opinion10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But, but, the truth shatters the fragile illusions I'm using to protect my feels!

[–]throwaway-o8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Muh feELS!!!

[–]SnowOnYourFace40 points41 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"TRP, without doubt, is mainstream within the more fun and exciting parts of society. However, it's not talked about directly."

This is all that matters. If you go out enough, the stuff here is like oxygen. It just is. Well written my friend.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great post. This is mostly the reason I don't try to argue for my points and rather keep them to myself. I've had so many women try to prod a reaction from me by attacking my 'supposed' political views but I always let it slide because it's not worth discussing. Overall, people really don't want to hear inconvenient things. Like, I can say that I think giving food aid to African countries is a huge waste of time and money because it's just a bandaid solution. Feed starving children to turn them into starving adults? This example is something that people would demonise me for, calling me unemphatatic or similar.

The matrix analogy rings so true sometimes. It's like people don't want to talk about anything that is inconvenient to them or something they perceive as hard. I usually prod people with the question if they think all humans have the same value. Gives me a good idea if I'll ever have an interesting conversation with them or not

[–]Sturmgeist7813 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Legitimately rational people would think your views on food aid are well thought out and make sense.

Emotional people (TBP/Women) will rely on emotion and demonize you.

Quite sad.

[–]RedSunBlue13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good stuff.

In Part III of that series, Venkat writes:

In our model, the three development stages – Clueless, Losers and Sociopaths – correspond to different patterns of arrested development [...] Each pattern is based on a preferred, dominant variety of delusion:

  1. The Clueless distort reality

  2. The Losers distort rewards and penalties

  3. The Sociopaths distort the metaphysics of human life

This certainly jives with my experience of exchanges with the bluepiller/SJW types. It doesn't even feel like we're discussing the same world.

[–]ohropax7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I think you are confusing understanding smthg. and approving of smthg.

A "Clueless" person may not understand powertalk but they can still have the same views as a person understanding powertalk. They are just not able to express their views in such an indirect way as a Powertalker.

Just because I'm a Clueless person doesn't mean I have to disapprove of the content of TRP.

A Sociopath on TRP may say "Sloots gonna sloot" A Clueless person may say "Woman are completely selfish materialistic beings deprived of any sense for logic using their sex to gain advantages from men"

So the content is the same.

On the other hand I can understand the language and content of TRP perfectly and still disapprove of it because it goes against my moral views or whatever.

It may just be, that Powertalk is understood by a far smaller group of people than regular "Clueless" talk. So the chance of encountering people who disapprove of your world view is far smaller when speaking Powertalk than speaking "Clueless" talk.

But it doesn't mean that there are no Clueless TRPillers out there. Their problem is that they only can communicate in a way so that everyone around them understands what they are saying, thus risking fierce opposition of people with different moral, world views.

A person mastering Powertalk can communicate hiding their content from most of the world around them thus not risking encountering fierce opposition.

[–]puaSenator[S] 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Apples are red, but that's not to say there aren't green apples. I'm not saying clueless people can't hold the same position, I'm saying that most BP people are clueless, so trying to explain TRP to them is ultimately a futile effort. TRP in the real world is rooted in powertalk, so it's simply impossible to explain someone with a BP position to understand TRP.

It's not to say a clueless person cant understand TRP, it's entirely possible. However, the clueless people generally tend to also be the same type of terpers that can't handle the straight talk. If I say, "No man, don't trust her. Women can't be trusted and you know this. She will come back and screw you over, I guarentee it." Now, is it 100% true? Obviously not. However, a clueless person will take this as posturetalk and take it as absolute fact, and inevitably start resenting women because they now believe what I've said as an inherent truth.

[–]Knight_of_autumn0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

But then are you not invalidating the whole point of this sub?

[–]RPtooLate2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Knight_of_autumn1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Did you mean to reply to me? I am not seeing a connection between your response and my question.

I am asking about his statement that explaining TRP to those who do not understand it is not worthwhile, but I needed this sub to understand TRP in the first place before I understood it. Explaining TRP to me was worthwhile to me.

[–]RPtooLate0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Your comment made me rethink this. At first, I had figured that those of us actually learning and implementing TRP fell into that "not all people are identical." However, if I were to quote and emphasize puaSenator

so it's simply impossible to explain someone with a BP position to understand TRP

When a BluePiller gets to TRP the people here can't just explain TRP to him. If he wants to understand TRP he has to move from a position of BP to a position of TRP. By thinking, applying, living, and observing TRP in their lives. Same as if they wanted to learn calculus or how to play the piano. No one can just explain it to them; it takes time and application to understand.

[–]Knight_of_autumn2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is a good point. It takes time and initiative to truly understand a concept. Otherwise it is impossible to apply it, akin to memorizing math problems might help you on a quiz that reuses homework problems with changed numbers but you will end up failing the exam where it asks you to extrapolate from your knowledge.

You just made me realize why I did pretty bad on one of my exams where I got lazy and stopped working on assigned problems until the day before the exam.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Yep. Its bizarre how stupid people can be. Me and this girl where talking very sexually. Eventually she said she wanted to come back to mine for "tea", I told her I'd only make tea if she was on best behaviour, she enthusiastically agreed and we continued being quite sexual.

We go back to mine, have some tea, start making out. Once things get sexual she backs out.

She says she knew we weren't going back just for tea, but she doesn't do casual sex (bear in mind this was date 4). She states she's a virgin, which may be true (I don't know)

She knew exactly what was going on, though all of the sudden I'm the bad guy and we don't see either again. I'm thankful I didn't fuck her, as she seems like the sort of girl who would believe it was rape if she regretted it.

This sort of thing just shows that you cannot trust a womans mouth, even her actions. She changes her mind as the wind blows.

[–]kankouillotte3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I dont know the details, so cant say for sure, but maybe you did a rookie mistake of pushing for it (after she backs out), or asking "why ?". Cold shoulder works every time. I think I learnt it from the first neil strauss book.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep rookie mistake. Realised later that I should have just said ok and lay down by myself.

[–]puaSenator[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Off topic but that seems like an exceptional case. To her she probably wanted to go back to the room and do some HS kissing and rubbing like she's used to.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's all that was going on. In the middle she jumped up and said we couldn't have sex as she was on her period. I said ok we don't have to have sex, and we continued making out. All of a sudden she jumped up and said she had to go home.

As it was dark I walked her back and she explained she was a virgin and wasn't comfortable with sex and she was leaving in a few months so didn't want to gain emotional attachment.

I felt like a dick tbh, though at the same time I couldn't have seen this coming and I don't think I pushed it.

[–]8HourPower0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You are supposed to push it so there's nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm in a VERY SIMILAR scenario. Same thing happened to me on the first date, (went from coffee to my place, from tv area to bedroom) we were making out, and I was pushing the escalation but said she's on her period - I was quite skeptical but let it go.

Date 2 after movies she had to "wake up early" and declined my invitation back to my place

She's 19, and I suspect she's a virgin. Date 3 coming up...

[–]8HourPower0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Update:

Date 3 - Grand Slam - thank the trp

  • She was not a virgin, but states her 'number count is low'

[–]Crusene6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I used to be a "clueless bluetard".

I said and thought and MEANT that I valued direct communication. I grew up using direct communication, because, for whatever reason, I did NOT UNDERSTAND indirect communication. I thought it was stupid.

"People should say what they mean, and mean what they say".

"Truth is the highest good".

"I wouldn't want him to lie to me, so I shouldn't lie to him".

Being literally socially retarded; -I basically holed up in my room to play video games for the first 18 years of my life- didn't help.

I just wanted to say, I've been there, and while yes direct communication limits social interaction, that unwavering focus on the truth ALSO led me to the red pill.

I went from wondering why I never having any friends, and never even talking to a girl, to realizing that I was literally NOT HEARING what everyone else was saying.

Indirect communication.

Once I made that connection, I have become determined to learn indirect communication, no matter how many times I am ridiculed, shunned, or fall down.

Its been a rough ride. But I'm on my own, now. I'm not limited every day to school, school, school, and interacting with the same groups of people. I'm learning, I've had some success, and the failures have not been as bad as I thought they would be. The quest for greater truth and meaning -which I so coveted and held dearly to when I was a "bluetard"- has also led me to the red pill.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Subtext is, I think, the word that you're looking for.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In social theory, also know as the meta message.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Excellent post, I have always spoke in blatant terms in order to communicate ideas to the clueless. I realize now that this is futile. It's this stupid compassion getting in the way. The clueless are simply pawns to be used, it's what they want, and they serve the needs of the powerful.

[–]puaSenator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Read up on baby talk. That's the only way you should talk to them.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU

I would recommend all TRPers to watch this a few times over and to really soak in the concepts. Relate what's being said to what you know from TRP.

And to sift through some of the bullshit (the source, the RSA, is about as progressive as they come -- Karl Marx was a member), this video pertains to only those who have the depth of knowledge to be able to read and speak between the lines. Not everyone understands or is even able to interpret mutual vs. individual knowledge. They're only able to see it once it's presented to them, but beyond that, they do not understand the dynamics. They see it as mere coincidence.

Pay close attention to how dominance relationships are explained. Then recognize that dominance is a key in attracting women.

[–]Endorsed Contributorleftajar2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Guys, READ THIS FUCKIN' ARTICLE.

This article is a primer on how to communicate with powerful, self-confident people.

This will change your paradigm, IF you can give it ample time and thought.

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good Work

[–]sir_wankalot_here1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A good post. My theory is people do not like to think too hard. Honestly I don't know :-)

[–]BigRed01 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post. I'm not a master of Powertalk, but this explains so many outbursts of women frustrated because I have neglected to Babytalk to them.

[–]tabularaja1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This article by Tim Leary is spot on http://deoxy.org/8_larvals.htm

[–]SacreBleuMe0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This and the article by Venkat are the most fascinating things I've read here in quite some time.

I've felt something similar for a while - I tend to think very straightforward and logically, and I even went to school for engineering. My interactions tend to be left-brain dominated, so to speak, and I've always felt deficient in more right-brained, subtle, emotional communication. Actually, I think I'm pretty good at reading how people are feeling, but I have a hard time formulating my own emotional communications in favor of logical ones.

[–]Tway_the_Parley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sidebar material. This is a goldmine, Part I is such an apt description of every organization that all of us should read it, it'll help our careers immensely.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great read, I would call myself loser becoming sociopath. I don't give a shit about others except a few very close friends and family but the book keeps saying that sociopaths will end up ultimately "miserable" and/or "descend into madness". What are your thoughts on this guys?

[–]Jordanhgns0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This analyzation explains so many of my relationships with people. Some of the most confident people I know are clueless. But they deal with the most social strifes due to their inability to PowerTalk.smh. Great read though

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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