Put a fork in it: MMSL has officially sold out to the feminine imperative. Stay strong Red Pill

omgimbackagain · 2014-08-16T23:10:14+00:00

That forum is honestly the pits.

All these thirsty pussys who get no attention from their wives vieing for internet love from the attention whores who effectively run the place.

The woman on that forum feel the need to comment on every single thread regardless of whether they any value to add at all.

Opening up his market and pandering to woman is definitely better for his bottom line. Wont learn anything there that you cant learn here. Best to be avoided.

RBuddDwyer · 2014-08-17T01:32:42+00:00

Completely agree. I actually meant to do a write up on him based on my brief experience over there. I also read that post and said, "forget it, he is done." The forums are adrift as well, with the only good material being stuff that was on there prior to June/July of 2013. Most of the good origianl posters have also been banned. Dave Bowman was also a great poster who had great stuff, but he never returned after a temporary ban.

Here are some points that just don't jive with him:

He claims he was a beta who discovered PUA and became alpha. Based on his writing, it is insinuated that he tries all of this stuff out on his wife Jennifer. Yet in a televised interview done around the time MMSL was started, he and Jennifer claim to have had sex over 5,000 times in their ~ 15 year marriage. That works out to be abouit every single night. If I were getting laid that much, there would be no need to do any research at all on how to get laid more. Also, exactly how beta are you if you are getting laid that much? It doesn't sync up with the general struggle betas face.
He bases a lot of his authority on the fact that has a medical background. He was a nurse for a long time who worked in a lot of different fields, including psych. This does give him some credibility over someone with no background at all. However, this also puts him in a field dominated by women (and from what I hear a higher percentage of sluts and nutjobs than found in the general female population). While this may give him some insight into female psychology, it also opens him up to latent Stockholm Syndrome, and might be why he is so willing to appease women. I'm sorry, but that is too much estrogen for too long a time.
He has now staked both his and his wife's livelihood on making MMSL work, so now he has to appeal to a broader audience, particularly one that is more willing to blow money on self improvement (read: females). While I don't fault him for doing what he has to do to put food on the table for his family, it waters it down a lot, especially when there are others in the manosphere who write from a more solid male base (the three R's come to mind).
Someone else pointed out (Rollo, I think) that his partner count is really low, like single digits. It is hard to have credibility with that low of a count.
The forums just went to shit. The two original moderators, Serenity and BrianC, were the complete wrong people to have on there. Serenity is a raging alpha bitch, and BrianC is the personificaiton of the Omega male. Now they both are on the coaching staff, and offering them up for coaching just reeks of, "they were the best I could find, and they have nothing else to do with their lives, so why not..."
RedPillWifey and some of the other female posters on there have insanely high post-counts, like over 9,000 in a year. (That's over 20 posts a day, every day, for the whole year.) And these are in-depth posts and replies, where they have clearly put a lot of thought into it. If these women are such good Red Pill Wives (TM), then how in the hell do they have that much free time to spend on the forums?

Those are a few of my thoughts on it.

TempestTcup · 2014-08-17T15:01:18+00:00

MMSL was on the RPW sidebar until I realized that all of the old posts, back when there was real substance to the blog, were shortened to the first two paragraphs and then said "if you want to read more, buy the book!" That's when I realized that MMSL no longer had anything to offer RPW and I pulled the link to it.

Now, if you want to see how screwed up the 911 forum is, just read this thread:

"a few examples of his controlling behaviour includes, my night out with some girlfriends (only once or twice a year) is such a big deal to him that he makes curfew and tells me to be home by 12am. "

Everyone on the forum is giving her abuse hotline numbers and telling her to run to a shelter for battered women.

Disclaimer: I didn't put the link to MMSL on the side-bar, another female mod, who abandoned RPW two weeks in and is very involved in the forum, did.

Rollo-Tomassi · 2014-08-17T17:06:24+00:00

Evan Mark Katz, Mark Manson, Rick Raw, Tucker Max and Athol Kay are all sell outs. There's a rapidly shrinking market and readership for a blue pill painted red.

They are no better than the PUA seminar DVD snake oil salesmen they criticize. Once their job and income depends on appealing to the readership of Betas and the women who want to be in control of changing them the message caters to that readership.

It's no longer about helping and educating men, it's about doing what's best for 'the brand'. Athol has his work cut out for him there – Tucker Max has recently rebranded himself with the same intent.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-08-17T03:27:01+00:00

I haven't been there for a couple of years now. I had read the entire blog up until that point, but then just stopped. The forums weren't my thing. Apart from anything else, I noticed that the women ran the show and did so without truly understanding what they were talking about.

Conversely—and I'll take the down-vote hits for this—I read through the blog post you linked to and I think you've cherry-picked his quotes and then misinterpreted him.

Firstly, trademark infringement is a real thing. If he's done the research and there is a chance he could be sued for it, he'd be stupid to continue using it. I always thought that the term was too derivative, anyway. You'd think a movement could come up with something more original to symbolise their viewpoint.

Secondly, Athol's primary stated focus is to have marriages working well. Marriages not working well are filled with negative emotions. Therefore, to initially proceed with bonding makes sense. When a couple comes to counseling angry at each other, fueling that anger and then sending them out the door is probably not the best way to start. You can tell a guy how to be a better man without starting out by ripping into how his wife is the cause of all his woes (true or not).

Thirdly, since he's delving into marriage counselling as a whole now, rather than just targeting men, of course he needs to write stuff directed towards women. You can't say that this is bad without knowing what he's advising women to do.

That said, he probably has sold out to a degree. How big a degree that is, I guess we'll see. But I think you're over-reacting before knowing all the facts.

erqos · 2014-08-17T01:15:54+00:00

stepping away from the Red Pill motif.

It’s already trademarked. “Take the Red Pill” is a trademarked phrase and not by me.

I suppose he realized that women are the spenders, and that they control the pursestrings. I guess it dawned on him that helping men and making money are conflicting interests. If your primary objective is to profit, then you're definitely not on the side of the patriarchy.

Matthew 6:24. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

It's the easier path, being praised by the world instead of facing persecution.

MartialWay · 2014-08-17T05:37:47+00:00

I'm going to call this Dalrock Syndrome, from the guy that most prominently writes about it. You can have the most Redpill systems on earth (like traditional Christianity, with the Eve story, and women told explicitly not to lecture men on religion), and if women are running congregation, the preachers will cater to them and reverse meaning of their most basic precepts.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-08-18T04:07:00+00:00

Anyone whose is using RP ideas / PUA / manosphere as their prime source of income will be a sellout at the end of the day - part of RP is about maximizing your own value and not caring about the morals of your actions in the pursuit of SMV. If you are peddling advice for a living, you ultimately MUST tell people what they want to hear, simply because after a point, spouting the truth does not appeal to a lot of people.

The truth gets old. True RP marriage theory and practice can be explained in maybe 4-5 blog posts or a 50 page ebook. Done. You have all you need.

For a blogger to sustain their posting long-term and sustain readership even - which may not pay the bills but at least provides a little - they have to basically start inventing either new ways to rebrand the SAME shit to a more mainstream audience, or watering down their message.

This is why I find the best bloggers on RP have their own job and run their own shit, with RP as their hobby / outlet. Dalrock for example - that dude is not someone who I fully agree with on anything, but has his message changed? Has he gone soft to appeal to morons / women / beta boys wanting a easy way to feel cool? No, because he does something else for money, I think he has his own business. That means he isn't some internet expert whose primary skill is affiliate marketing and SEO - he doesn't have to charge for "personal coaching."

This is why Return of Kings is so-so - with the potential to make money by outrage-clicks, controversy, and appealing to the "Manhood Academy" type crowd they run about 50% hate-bait articles / "Top Ten Pics of Fat American Girls" meme articles.

It's why RSD, despite having The Blueprint Decoded which is one of the best SH products of all time IMO, is going to just keep repeddling the same type of stuff. They have said all there is to say; Tyler has shared all there is to share, so now most of the instructors just come up with different words for the same concepts.

MMSL, however, could have soldout in a way that was less shitty. I respect the above blogs for doing what they had to do to get money, while simultaneously keeping at least 50% of the rawness that got me to tune in.

I had stopped reading MMSL about 1.5 years ago because Athol to me just sounds like one of these espousers of the "LTR/marriage is about hybriding your alpha with beta traits" which I have done posts on why I think is retarded. This, however, is a new low IMO. Hopefully RPW can stop their love affair with this guy, I see him recommended on virtually every post.

"I'm at peace with being called a sell out, betraying men, yadda yadda" is a way of saying "my own behavior even makes me uneasy with myself and I am not proud, but because the cash is expected to come in from this change, I will not lose any sleep."

OpiumPhrogg · 2014-08-17T03:48:46+00:00

I found out about MMSL from a post here a good number of months ago. I lurked around the forum for about a week, decided to spend the10 bucks for the MMSL Primer (I figured why the hell not?) and joined the forum. I posted a few things but mostly tried to absorb as much as I could. It was "enlightening" at first but after about 3 months lurking and posting when I felt I had something relevant to say, something about that site just started to feel off. I don't know if TRP was just making more solid points or the things I started to change and do in my life (thanks to both TRP and MMSL) started to just kind of click, and/or the forum started to seem more full of drama and whining but I just effectively stopped feeling like that place was really any help. I still pop over there maybe twice a month if I am bored but it's all the same crap regurgitated over and over. I still say get the MMSL Primer and the Mindful Action Plan books, they are worth it. But don't rely on the forum for much in the way of solid guidance.

cover20 · 2014-08-17T18:57:40+00:00

MMSL has always been wrong. Its explanation of dopamine vs. oxytocin is misleading and will lead a man to "exciting" pedestalling behavior rather than strong (if less exciting or risky) alpha behavior.

I never assume that mistakes like this happen by accident.

BRAVE_DUST · 2014-08-17T21:17:04+00:00

Pretty damn disappointing. MMSL was my introduction to the manosphere in the first place.

DanG3 · 2014-08-26T15:19:56+00:00

Just up: http://therationalmale.com/2014/08/24/back-to-basics/

"I’m aware of many a former (nominally) red pill blogger who’s dropped their previous advocacy for masculine (Alpha) attributes being arousing/attractive in favor of a diluted blue pill ‘new age sensitive guy’ message that better resonates with his increasingly female readership. While spinning just enough red pill into what accounts for a blue pill ideology might make for better, temporary, revenue, it only aggravates the same conflict between equalism and complementarity that Gunther here is exposing."

1100110011001 · 2014-08-17T02:19:39+00:00

Shall we start taking bets on the excuses we will hear when these guys' wives get bored of their husbands and start fucking the alphas they denounced and leave with their kids and money?

blarggggggggggg · 2014-08-17T01:33:16+00:00

Someone in this sub had mentioned that the MAP book was the same thing as the MMSLP, but toned down and made 'friendlier' to women. I suppose that was the beginning of the trend. I have browsed the forums over there but they are completely a mess.

I still am curious to read MAP and I can't really think too poorly of the continued decline of this guy's 'brands'. He's just going where the money is. 'Think as you like behave like others; and all that.

let_terror_reign · 2014-08-17T04:39:35+00:00

As the only other person who actively contributes on LTRs, I'd love to get archwinger's input on this from that perspective.

DanG3 · 2014-08-17T12:59:43+00:00

Re: $ellout * If you read the "Story Arc And Timeline" in the site banner, he openly volunteers that he is a sellout ... from the BEGINNING!

"2009 At this point there was no MMSL. Athol discovered that he could cross over pickup artist advice to married men and they started getting more sex in their marriages. He also figured out he could cross over standard marriage advice to pickup artists to help them create long term relationships, but the pickup guys didn’t want to listen and were broke. So Athol decided to focus on the married guys who listened to him and had money."

That said, sure, I'll pile on here and concur that the woman factor (especially PAYING client woman factor) is a real man's Pain In My Ass on both his forum and blog. But, it's obvious that he made a conscious financial decision to tolerate (?) that for the sake of drawing in the women with the low T, and/or porn addicted husbands who are trying to save their marriages. Thus in his mind, he is able to help "more" men - by helping the women who are trying to save them as well. I haven't fully decided if that is a good thing - White Knighting men through their wives.

I'll also concur that his early books and writings (which are actually the "Readers Digest" of RP) are good training wheels for betaized guys who need to get an initial clue about what they did wrong - once they realize that it is THEM - that being blue pill is their problem. I think the "Mindful Attraction Plan" went too far into La La Land.

Probably the "sting" in the whole current MMSL thing is that he initially came on as a man openly helping men. It doesn't even bother me - much - that he intended to do it for men with money. It's the current "pay me for the coaching if you want the final piece of the puzzle" whiff of the place that bothers me! Guys, its ALL freely available right here and related sites. If you don't have the brains to figure it out, then maybe you weren't meant to breed.

[deleted] · 2014-08-17T07:07:00+00:00

Dangerously Monogomous

^ That is the first thing I see when I visit the forum. Which translates into:

Without a woman you are dangerous
Without a woman you are nothing

Which leads me to a giant FUCK YOU to the website owner.

I never read a few more words than that; why would I?

Title	Put a fork in it: MMSL has officially sold out to the feminine imperative. Stay strong Red Pill
Author	BluepillProfessor
Upvotes	84
Comments	49
Date	August 16, 2014 10:53 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2dr8n7/put_a_fork_in_it_mmsl_has_officially_sold_out_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/put-a-fork-in-it-mmsl-has-officially-sold-out-to.19536 https://theredarchive.com/post/19536