While you are talking to her, she is observing you

November 15, 2017

Tldr: While you’re innocently focusing on the words coming out of your mouth, women read you in million different ways. This covert communication is a reflection of your inner frame and purpose, and until you get real frame you can cheat this by faking frame and confidence.

So you approached the cute girl at the venue, stroke up a conversation. Maybe you’re talking about your cool hobby, maybe it’s your job and how you’re killing it in the new office, maybe about the last amazing vacations you’ve had in a foreign place. You even insert some jokes for good measure. She’s looking up at you, with a half smile on her face, eyes wide open, batting her eyelashes. You think she’s eating this shit up.

Guess what, she doesn’t care about your story. Or at least, she cares much less than you do. Meanwhile, as you are talking to her, she’s watching you. Some of it is actively observing you, some is passively taking in a million of hints that provide her with great information.

She is looking at your posture and movements:

At the moment you approach her, she is already seizing you up. Did you come walking at a slow pace? Are you feet spread apart and providing solid, confident balance? Is your posture crouched or straight? Is it straight because you are tensed and riled up like an angsty teenager, or is straight and relaxed? Can your arms and hands rest on the side of your body seemingly naturally, or do you have them in your pockets? Do you breathe slowly, does your chest expand in long movements?

Generally speaking, she is assessing your body and your confidence. Men tend to look at things in parts (we’re attracted to boobs or butts, we will look at a guy’s shoulders and assume he is strong, etc.) whereas women get a feel for the overall thing. If a guy talks tough shit but is fidgeting, or if he has big biceps but his center of gravity seems fragile like he is resting on his toes, she will notice this, consciously or not, and will evaluate him accordingly.

She takes into account how much space you take up in the room, and how people react to you:

When people walk past you, how much space do they leave you? Does it feel like you take up a small or big area of this room? Also if girls glance at you, albeit for a fraction of a second, you won’t notice but she will. Not only that, but she will pick up on the meaning of that glance (did the girl checking you out show interest or disinterest?)
It doesn’t necessarily have to do with you being big, it’s more about charisma. A charismatic, vibrant guy who eats up space will seem to radiate energy and will attract gazes, and people will get out of his way.

She is listening to the tone of your voice:

Is your tone deep, calm? Is your voice colorful, blending in various vibrations and frequency of equal force, or is it one tone that makes most of its strength? In other words, is your voice strong in only a few tones? When you make a joke or tease her, does it end with just a hint of weakness, like a covert request for approval? If you tell her ‘no’, does your tone means it’s a statement, or is it defiant like a kid standing up to his mom for the first time? When the conversation dies for a little bit, are you urged to say something right away to fill in the void? When you start talking again, is the tone of your voice different from before?

She is watching your eyes and facial expressions:

There are so many subtle signs that they are impossible to list here. We have tried to give robots and 3D characters facial expressions as realistic as possible, yet everybody agrees that real humans have many more facial expressions, but they are so small that we can’t artificially identify them yet, less replicate. Like the tiny change in the dilatation of your pupil when you start a sentence. Or the high of your cheeks getting just a tad redder. Or some skin contracting on the side of your mouth.

My point with all of the above is that you can ‘fake it till you make it’, but if a woman pays just a little bit of attention, she’s really hard to fool. Sometimes she’ll notice incongruence between your words and frame, but she’ll still be attracted because she’ll sense that you have balls (after all, faking it requires balls).

So, what to do? Some personal advice

Best part in fake it till you make it, is the make it part. If you become the badass, confident man you should be, you won’t have to worry about all this. It will come out naturally.

In the meantime, if you’re still faking it, here is something that worked for me. It’s a bit ridiculous but it does work, feel free to come up with other ideas.

What I used to do when I was still not 100% confident, was to spell out frame statements in my head. I’d be chatting up a girl and, in the meantime, would calmly say in my mind, while looking at her: “girl you act like you don’t care but you’re mine, and you already know it” or any message that you want to send. Of course it’s not like I do this to motivate myself. Rather, my facial features react to this message I’m confidently stating in my head, and reflect it. While I’m talking about my hobby, she sees my pupils suddenly focusing on her, my eyebrows slightly frown, my voice is just a tad deeper, and a lot of other small hints that I can’t control. She doesn’t know what it means, but she picks up on it. This way I can somehow control the covert communication, not only the spoken conversation. But I’ve noticed that if I don’t spell it out clearly in my mind, it stays within said mind and doesn’t reach facial expressions. Try it.


  • The conversation you’re having with her is just a vessel for her to assess many more things about you. She doesn’t really care about your fucking hobby. But she cares about how you talk about it, and what it says about you. For men, words are here to convey a message, and we spend a lot of energy trying to find the right words. For women, words are just an empty vessel to create an interaction, and the more important messages are read through other channels, via covert communication. Focus less on what you are talking about, and more on how.

  • The subtle hints and facial expressions she recognizes are so many that they are impossible to list exhaustively, and to completely cheat. Women are experts at sending and reading signals. You can’t beat them at this game, and can only fake it so much with your outside persona. Best is to strive to become a man who doesn’t have to fake anything.

  • In the meantime, you can overcome this by faking inner confidence, and taking control of the covert communication and the non-verbal messages you’re sending.

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Post Information
Title While you are talking to her, she is observing you
Author Popeman79
Upvotes 763
Comments 106
Date November 15, 2017 1:07 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/TheRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/while-you-are-talking-to-her-she-is-observing-you.47144
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7d3yk3/while_you_are_talking_to_her_she_is_observing_you/
Red Pill terms in post

[–]buddhadarko154 points155 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is an awesome post and easy to understand for both newbies and well-seasoned RPer's.

What this boils down to is the classic understanding of feels for women. Women run off of feels, not logic and deep understanding. For men, logic and reason are king. But for women, it's the polar opposite; they operate on feels. If they feel your energy is masculine and congruent, then they will stick to you glue. If your frame is strong and she can sense that she has not moved you at all, you've demonstrated value and her vag gets the tingles; she wants to be around you, cater to you, suck your dick at a moment's notice, because your masculine frame allows her to be feminine without having to nudge you like she would with a beta.

As men, we have to learn how to implement the Machiavellian game that is innate for women. They understand, but could never explain, that body language and subtle cues like deepness of voice, confident and relaxed eye contact, and an intentionally confident, but relaxed stance mean the difference between someone who is self-confident and self-aware/alpha, and someone who is needy, afraid, and unsure of themselves (beta). Obviously, she will be more attracted to the former and repulsed by the latter. Her instincts tell her to go with the one that feels like he knows what he's doing, not the one that is emitting the same feminine-based frequencies as she is. Women crave the polar opposite of themselves.

I like OP's suggestion of running some frame reminders/statements through his mind while with a woman. Doing that can override your possibly natural default to overthink/overcompensate for your natural lack of frame. If you keep telling yourself certain things: "You're already mine, girl. I don't need to pretend to be alpha, I am. She wants me to take charge." It's very possible to override your negative thoughts and bask in the masculine energy you were born to and that she craves.

I would also like to add in the importance of outcome independence. I talk about it a lot because it's extremely important. Even if you're running a smooth game, and you know she's interested in getting fucked by you, some bullshit can come up where she will try a last minute shit test or her friends try to take her away from you. These things happen and they're not always a result of you being beta or something. They can just happen. So, it's important to keep outcome independence in mind. It teaches you that, hey, even though I wanted it to end this way, if it ends that way, I'm still good. I can easily chat up another chick and hook up with her if I want to, or not. Either way, you should not let a situation drag you down to a dumpster level where your entire existence is hinged on her validating you.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 32 points33 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So many great points, I wish your comment was higher.

Men and women are totally different animals, and once we swallow the pill we are baffled to realize that women only fake being rational because this is what school and society has told them, but really they function completely on instincts and feels.

The social model, which is indeed based on centuries of 'patriarchy', is founded on rationality, because this is the way of survival, the only thing that works. Women have learned to navigate this rational world by disguising their instincts under the cover of rationality. I would even venture to say that their hamster actually only exists because of this patriarchal society, because for thousands of years men have hammered rationality into their female brains (I imagine women in the wild would just cheat on their man without the need to justify it, because it's just how they felt).

So as they are forced by society to use reason, women are not free to be themselves, and they blame patriarchy for this. They are right, but they fail to see that this is good for them and for society as a whole.

It also gives them an advantage: they now understand and speak the language of men: rationality -although it costs them to do so. While men are totally oblivious to the language of women (feels and emotions), until they stumble upon TRP.

[–]Jailhouseredpilled9311 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

-While men are totally oblivious to the language of women...

Men were once boys raised by women. Reason is a male quality that must be learned through experience and male mentoring (men are made). Before this, boys act through their emotions like women. In the ancestoral environment they are vulnerable and had to be submissive. This is a very emotional state to be in. Quick decissions based on emotion was how they survived. It is when they use reason that they begin to form a male mindset. Men sometimes carry this female mind set over to adulthood. There's some overlap like masculine women and feminine men, for example, you'd think psychology would overlap to some degree. A lot of BP betas act just like women.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you overstate male rationality. If it came so naturally, training in mathematics and logic would come more easily. I think men should strive for rationality, and to be quite honest, outcome independence is a rational outcome. If I get shot down tonight, I will not be a forever incel. I know this.

I've also been in positions where my "gut" knew it was bad for me before my brain did. Sometimes it is important to listen to one's gut, even if the brain never gets around to processing why in that particular case.

I upvoted your comment because it has a lot of insight. I think we can play rational games with ourselves to unleash that masculine energy, which is itself a feelz and not entirely rational.

[–]BreakingRed_2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you overstate male rationality. If it came so naturally, training in mathematics and logic would come more easily.

People think that "a gender being more rational than the other means free meal ticket". Think of it like the muscle capability. Men's muscles can grow larger than women's without external interference (supplements) due to biological difference. But that alone doesn't guarantee that you will be more muscular than any woman just because you're a man. It guarantees that if you work on your fitness and you don't have any underlying health conditions then you will do it.

There are also great women mathematicians. The overall point of the message is to push people to work on things that are statistically likely to possess, but you can find whether you "have a knack for it" or not by engaging with it anyways.

[–]FirstNamesMusic27 points28 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Lots of comments in here about women not reading too much into body language. I will tell you right now that is false, all women of all ranges are masters of it (compared to the average guy)

It literally is how they can filter who is a weak or strong man. If you are muscular, then your body language is already boosted just by being there standing.

How many times have you said a joke to a woman that wasnt that funny, yet they tool your social cue and laughed like hell (while you think to yourself, "that wasnt funny"). Thit is because your body language sold it in confidence. The better you are at body language, the less you must lean on word choice.

The better your body language, the more attractive she perceives you to be.

Honestly this can be extended to how much social sway you have period in any circle.

[–]chauncy_popperstein20 points21 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

"Lots of comments in here about women not reading too much into body language. I will tell you right now that is false, all women of all ranges are masters of it (compared to the average guy)"

Exactly. And they (women) have been practicing social interactions their whole life. Think back to childhood. When you where outside playing sports to hone your physical skills. Your little sister was inside playing with dolls or throwing a "tea party" to practice social skills.

[–]FirstNamesMusic18 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I would even go so far as to state it is in their biology. Women (as the traditional child rearers) have an innate ability to read body langauge as to best provide care for their child. It also spreads accross child rearing and into every social interaction they have.

[–]CQC36 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It is innate, ask yourself how long does it take for you to size up a woman's attractiveness to you, assuming she isn't be obscured by baggy clothing or something. It probably takes a second or less of just looking, your eyes immediately glance over and check general shape, face, ass, legs and breasts with incredibly efficient speed.

I'd imagine women can do the same looking at a guy.

[–]electricspresident5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well I think women need to talk to a guy though to decide if she want to fuck him. Gotta test his frame and all that shitt

[–]RedShock157 points58 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Really in-depth and a lot of good info to introspect on, be sure not to be thinking about all these specifics when talking to a girl or you might feel self-conscious.

[–]rigbed5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was trying to articulate how to speak in PowerTalk. You say one thing in your head while saying another. What you say in your head will be what’s conveyed.

[–]1AfterC2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hijacking one of the top posts to help your text game:

How would you text a woman if you were already in bed with two, and just flippantly checking your phone?

Text like that with women you've already k-closed, or those over 25.

Under 25 you may need more text game. It's how some prefer to communicate nowadays. In this instance, the 2/3 rule rules the day.

[–]BrigMin135 points36 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Pretty good analysis. The huge mistake I see so many men make on realizing this is trying to control all these non-verbal behaviors in themselves. If you try to consciously micro-manage all these behaviors she is observing, she will definitely observe you struggling to juggle all of that. If you truly give zero fucks about whether or not she sees you in any particular way, any fumble you make will seem like carelessness borne purely of confidence & comfort in your own skin.

Work on your communication habits every day, but when the game is on, you absolutely must forget it all and just rely on the habits you've built and follow your own compass. And if you value the prize too much, you will compromise and all will be lost. It's just negotiation; you can't negotiate well for an item you can't do without. The salesperson will smell your willingness to pay more from a mile off.

The OP is great dating advice, but cannot help individuals who are self-absorbed to the point of imbalance. That will show through regardless. It won't prevent catching a fish, but the dinner will be unpalatable and lacking in nourishment (shallow, thoughtless, too self-absorbed to see how self-absorbed you are - terrible mating material; think of the low-survivability of any offspring raised by such an woman).

[–]caP1taL1sm9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you truly give zero fucks about whether or not she sees you in any particular way, any fumble you make will seem like carelessness borne purely of confidence & comfort in your own skin.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner folks!

This is gold.

[–]vwzwv2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you truly give zero fucks you can practice OP things on women while assuming soft failure, and walk away unfazed with more skill and data points. Just do it to randos, not women you have to see all the time.

[–]2mental_models5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree.

As my username suggests, I'm a person who focuses on the major models within a given area. The 20% of an area's models that carry the 80% of the freight.

If I'm not within my area of expertise, I'm an 80/20 guy.

In regards to posture, the models that I'm most concerned with are;

Physicality(bodybuilding/range-of-motion) (basic physical posture)

Frame (thriving, confident)

Awareness (understanding of how to best position/frame yourself in the moment)

The first part (Physicality) was already done in the gym prior to this approach, and requires no real thought. Frame and Awareness are basics. If you can do these three basics and you have actual value to offer, you are at least 80% there.

The OP made a nice post with very comprehensive advice. I think that learning some of those details could help along the path to true mastery.

[–]KingRead12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly why IOIs are important and learning what they are is crucial. The more I learned about them and was aware of them happening, the more relaxed I got because I knew that she was mine.

For example, if I make a stupid dumb joke and she's still laughing, and giving me 'the eyes' I know it's over. She's unknowingly showed me that she's attracted and now that I know this, I can relax and its one less thing I have to worry about. It's so much easier to be 'alpha' when the pressures off and you can focus your energy on logistics instead.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is really great stuff.

I've improved my posture immensely through rows, a standing workstation, massage, and awareness.It has really helped.

The problem is.....I'm a fast talker and quite impatient. I can vary the tone, understand the subtext, etc., but slowing down just isn't my thing. I've had some luck lowering the tone, but not slowing down.

I'm pretty much rocking the smart & strong look.

So, OP.....any view on that cadence? It really feels like purposely slowing down would be incongruent....plus, I'm not a big dude, 5'9" & 155# (45) so for instance, back to the grappling discussion from yesterday, I'm strong and fast and will go for the kill but am far from overpowering.

Great post.

[–]tall_bacon5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The only way fast talkers can change cadence is to introduce thoughtful pauses at the right times. You literally have to shut yourself up for a few seconds to appear contemplative and purposeful. Take an intentional, slow breath and just interrupt yourself. It’s a tactic used by the most skilled actors - commonly known as the “dramatic pause” (also comedic pause depending on the context, look up gene wilder). It stirs feelings of tension, desire to know what’s coming next. When done correctly, people will hang on your words and almost fall off their seat if you structure your speedy thoughts and words in the right way around your pauses.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude that's fucking fantastic, thanks so much! I think I've kind of known that, but you articulated it perfectly.

to appear contemplative and purposeful.

Often it's not even appearance, I'm actually contemplating....the important part is to be OK with the pause rather than just blathering or stammering.

Thanks again.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think talking fast is a bad thing in itself. It's just that, usually, it comes with defaults such as complacency with your own discourse, and an inability to pick up on other people's cues. I don't know if it applies to you.

But the smart & fast type can definitely be a winner.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the response.

inability to pick up on other people's cues

Definitely not my problem, although I sometimes extrapolate too far.

[–]Nomfwic8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women are so much more sensitive to actions than words and its rooted in their biology. Females are naturally weaker than men so they have to be efficient assessors of subtle hints to be able to escape dangerous situations or aid in manipulation. Knowing what a persons intentions are without them knowing that you know is one of a womens greatest weapons....

But as all weapons, it can be used to the enemies advantage. And the confident and aware man knows this all to well.

Also explains why women don't like each other....

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also explains why women don't like each other....

Always found it funny that women tend to have like three times as many 'friends' as men... especially later in life. But they never really like each other. Female friendships always seem so phony and fabricated. I remember my sister as a little girl. Always had a ton of little girls around but they inevitably ended up fighting, crying, and growing apart down the road. At work the women pay each other lip service and smile at each other but you can feel the fake. My wife is always complaining about her friends.

Meanwhile I've got like 3 or 4 close friends I really like. Men's friendships are real as fuck. I love my friends dearly and they love me. I feel bad for hoes.

[–]Boshackalaka7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Another thing that helped me is to actually be around people that get it. It seems obvious but observe how people that are good at what they do and eventually you will start picking up and imitating some of what works.

For example since I started watching a lot of stand-up, I unconsciously (and consciously) started incorporating some of their style in my humor, which improved it tremendously.

That doesn't mean be a fucking copycat, use your style and add to it.

And always be improving.

[–]russbussdp10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can confirm that body language is everything. I've pulled lays without saying a word. Make yourself look big. Man spread. Put your hands behind your head and lean back while sitting. Be conscious of it for a while until it becomes a natural behavior. Fuck her with your eyes. If you can master your body language you can forego the weight lifting. But the latter usually precedes inherent confidence.

[–]jemattie8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Posts like this read like the RP-man's equivalent to those shitty erotic novels that women read

[–]marked-one71 points72 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

Lol. Dude i can bet you my life 85 % of the bimbos in a bar dont even have half the brainpower to think about all this.

All they care about is you having one of two bulges. Either one in your pockets or one between your legs. You can be the biggest Star wars fan on the planet. If you got cash/a big dick with a little muscle you will be the "cute nerdy guy"

But if you are some scrawny stuttering little shit they wont give a fuck about you.

Tldr. They are airheads in every sense of the word. You just gotta have a slick toungue and something attractive to them

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 112 points113 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's not about the brainpower. You're rationalizing it, just the way I do it in the post. We're translating female-world into our world.

In reality, she can be the dumbest of bimbos, she will still read into all this, albeit unconsciously. When girls say 'I was attracted to him, it just happened', what they mean is that they responded unconsciously to a lot of messages indicating a valuable male, and acted upon it.

Again, it has nothing to do with being smart.

[–]LukesLikeIt9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly, the subconscious picks up on all this which culminates into a feeling of either attraction or revulsion which (even better if she’s not smart) she will submit to.

[–]newls4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly, and it usually all happens within two seconds.

[–]kaspell2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This. It's an autonomic cognitive function on their part. It's the algorithm in their brain, not the user interface. Most of it is subconscious. It feeds into that whole stereotype about them not knowing why they feel the way they do. Their body is designed to propagate, the brain came later.

Same for men, just different evolutionary tools.

[–]ItsYough12317 points18 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

It's mostly subconscious. It's not like they think about it. I'm very average but I'll tell you how my experience with women changes in two different scenarios.

When I go out to the club on MDMA I see all the stuff girls do. I'm full of confidence, my chest is stuck out, my walk is slow and purposeful. I'm not aware I'm even doing all these things and I'm truly living in the moment. On the dance floor I find my own spot. Not joking but within minutes I notice girls pointing to their friends and suddenly positioning themselves very close to me so they'll get noticed. Even girls with boyfriends will brush up against me but make it look like they're just getting past. I see out of the corner of my eyes women looking at me and when I look over they give a big smile and show signs that they want to be approached. Out in the smoking area they'll be the ones to step beside you and start up random conversations. This all happens because I'm not showing any anxiety and can take or leave them.

When I go out to a club and only drink I don't pick up on a lot of this stuff. I'm not as successful with women and it feels like I really have to be on the ball in order to makes things work. I'm the one approaching to try and make things work. It's not impossible but it's much harder. Sure I can stick out my chest and make myself bigger, slow down my walk but it's a thought process and it isn't as natural. Women pick up on this, believe me.

Maybe you might say I'm just high and misinterpreting things but I don't think that's a fair assessment.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 13 points14 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I agree completely. Drugs in general offer incredible windows into other forms of perception, and our intelligence is highly dependent on our perception (we can only go so far building abstract models in our heads).

Molly in particular helps you increase this female perception. You pick up on many of those things I mention in the post.

[–]ItsYough1235 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

We're thinking very similarly. Some drugs let you know just how much women are into you. It's written all over their faces and body. It's like you can see subtle things you'd never see sober. The difference is night and day.

I wonder are more women checking me out when I'm sober but I don't realise because I can't pick up on the subtle cues as well? They probably are but nowhere near to the extent while I'm on molly. As well as your perception getting better, I think a large part of attracting women when you're in this state is because you're oozing with charisma and confidence.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I'm definitely more attractive when I'm high on something. Girls gravitate towards me, and it's not just a false perception.

Some here have said that this occurs because you have a IDGAF attitude, but I don't think it's the real reason. I believe that drugs make you vibrate with a higher energy (as long as you use them properly and don't become a couch potato). You're tuned in to a stronger frequency, you're intense, and you have creative energy -although most of the time we don't use it. Girls are really receptive to all this, they live for that. Life is a drug for them, going from one short-lived high to another.

[–]ItsYough1233 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Totally agree on the energy. I usually keep these kind of thoughts to myself as they are a bit out there. When you get into this state you're like a play thing to a girl. They love interacting with you. Whatever way your body naturally relaxes it passes all their shit tests effortlessly and they immediately are in play mode. Your body in this higher state is totally dominant. But not the kind of dominance most men think of. It's easy to see the big fake dominant guys when you're in this state.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we are as oblivious to the world of feelings and perceptions as they are to rationality and reason.

Also about energy: once you start feeling it a lot of things start to make sense, for example redpill principles are rooted in opposite polarities between the genders. But yeah, it's just perception so it's difficult to discuss this in a sub that rigthfully promotes male logic and rationality.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

PM weed destroys my frame. I become so withdrawn I can’t see shit around me. If I smoke too much too often my (female, not banging) roommate will hit me with “are you mad at me what’s wrong” after a few days.

I love smoking weed. I have to decide between being social or being stoned.

[–]ItsYough1234 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I only smoke weed alone. It's like the opposite of MDMA for me. My natural instinct, timing, stance and ability to see what women (and men) want all go away. My natural conversation skills plummet from the first smoke lol. Everyone lights up before we head out and I simply refuse now because I know it messes with me lol. It interesting how different drugs are more suited to others.

In regards to conversational/being instinctive skills, for me weed = being blind. Normal life = Can see but not the best. MDMA = It's like putting on glasses and seeing people in HD.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's like weed stretches you inward, and MDMA stretches you outward

[–]kaspell1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've experienced the same thing. There is so much that goes on sub cognitive. It makes me want to not make fun of the hippies. There is so much 'fluffy' science that hasn't been explained that they got right back in the day about energy and shit like that

[–]electricspresident0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is funny though cause this thread basically ends up saying that the 2 of you can't pull when you are not on drugs cause otherwise when on drugs you're tuned into a more more confident state and hence end up gettin the chicks from the club

[–]ItsYough1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can still pull when not on drugs. I'm just saying how much easier it is when I'm high. It's like I know which girls want me to approach so it makes the game a lot easier. It's written all over their face that they want me. Without I still see signs but they are a lot more subtle and I have to do more work in order to get there. It feels more like I'm chasing rather than instinctively knowing what girls want me.

It's not just about being confident but I bet that's a lot to do with it. It's the ability to know with full assurance which women are digging you and seeing all the tiny things they do to make themselves more attractive to you. It kind of becomes funny when you realise just how much effort women put into getting noticed and how most of them actually do make the first move without ever saying a word to the guy.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

The bimbo at the bar with 86 IQ on her 4th wine will be easier to fool. A real woman that is curious about you either by not having seen you in a long time or completely sober with a mutual connection to your social group will.

A slick tongue will help but body language is key and real woman will be masters at reading it.

[–]kelvin_condensate3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Intelligence has nothing to do with what one is sexually attracted to since sexual attraction is an entirely subconscious process.

Intelligence only comes into play when one is engaged in modulating their previously purely instinctual behavior.

[–]vwzwv0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So here I am with a bimbo at the bar with 86 IQ on her 4th wine. Is it possible to suduce her in to bed? Maybe I'll never know.

[–]vwzwv2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Alot of these guys are right, but think of it wrong (or at least explain it wrong).

example: FirstNamesMusic said:

Lots of comments in here about women not reading too much into

body language. I will tell you right now that is false, all women of all

ranges are masters of it (compared to the average guy)

It literally is how they can filter who is a weak or strong man.


He's correct, but that misrepresents how women think. By reading his words you'd think women are using their male-like analytical brains to actively scan and judge guys using 1000 cycles/per second of cpu.

It's more like this.. Imagine the Star Wars nerd, no build, wearing frumply clothes, bowl haircut. He walks in to a bar, starts talking to a girl, somehow. He's talking about the minutia of Star Wars, and subtexts his math skills. Sure the girl, and everyone else in the bar (male, or female) are judging him by his body language, his high voice, etc, his unrelaxed eyes. The nerd is completely clueless of this stuff. He thinks his mission is demonstrating mastery (star wars) and seeing if this is the day. He might even look around, sense how different everyone in the bar is (male and female), and sense a creeping mild amount of distain. He might tell himself, 'oh yeah, bars are dens of machivellianism'. He believes people who dress well at work are tricksters because that effort could have been put towards a project, but these logic unpure people do in fact have a set of trickery skills that is intimidating. He thinks his sloppy clothes are irrelevant. He thinks the lack of confidence he has from wearing sloppy clothes is irrelevant too.

What are the girls thinking? ..'Look at that sloppy nervous nerd with his fat ass and bad hair.. he's clueless'.

'lesson learned': don't accredit Machiavellianism to women for what is really a delusional self belief of how others see you. It's relative. Everyone might have 100 things to laugh about the Star Wars guy. You aren't that guy, they only have 33 things to laugh about you. Improve yourself.

[–]bigkids2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

All they care about is you having one of two bulges.

Damn, I was hoping for your username to check-out!

[–]Unstoppable3161 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Shit dude I have an average dick and no muscle and am confident as hell around women. I've found that women look for 2 things: how you dress and your grooming, and how confident/outcome-independent you are (this is most important)

[–]recursoinominado1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They may not notice it consciously but as sure as hell they will feel it and is the same.

[–]kelvin_condensate1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even airheads make a million unconscious ‘calculations’ in order to just move their muscles and also to maintain basic life support systems.

No intelligence is required since the mind does all this shit subconsciously. If one wants to understand why they do something, it requires an overt mental effort.

As an analogy, nature doesn’t sit there and calculate the distance the Earth and Moon are, multiply their masses, and compute how the Moon should orbit the Earth via the laws of gravity; in nature, it just happens, and if we want to understand how that happens, an incredibly absurd amount of analysis is required to the point of general relativity.

[–]Henrywinklered1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are doing it all subconsciously. Even the dumb ones have this power. It's just in their nature.

[–]elruary1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They do it without realising mate, it's instinctual. If you put off any of these traits they'll be unattracted and most of the time they won't know rationally why but they just are.

[–]VanillaVeku3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Solid info. However, I don't think that it becomes important just for talking to women. This is something you must practice in every interaction of your life. Potential plates, friends, co-workers, family, at a job interview. TRP encompasses all aspects of your life, these practices should as well

[–]Spursfan332 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was a great read; thanks for the insightful write-up.

[–]smellyonions88 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

It all stems from one thing.

See, you can practice for years, all this manners and voice and stuff, just to act like guy who has IDGAF attitude.

Or you can truly, deeply, not give a fuck about anything. And then you will be it. Natural.

I do not know how to explain to someone how to live without need to be validated by others without sounding stupid.

If I tell you that I live how I want I I give ZERO FUCKS ABOUT WHAT SOCIETY OR ANY PERSON ON THIS PLANET thinks about me, or even worse, thinks about what I should be doing, it will be even more stupid.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Totally agree with you:

Best part in fake it till you make it is the make it part. If you become the badass, confident man you should be, you won’t have to worry about all this. It will come out naturally.

Still, it's easier to become ourselves and not give a fuck when we understand the world around us. This is what TRP is. It just shows the reality. Personally, I could only develop the IDGAF attitude once I had women figured out completely. This is why I believe these posts are necessary because they teach newbies about what is happening, and gets them closer to not worrying about all this.

[–]smellyonions88 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I see where are you going with it. I totally agree, it is easier to not give a fuck when you see how things are (specially with women).

But this comes with time, majority of readers here are too young for that world view. After 25, it will come.

So did you figured out women completely? The real thing comes when you see them for what they are without hate. Rather you understand they are made that way and there is no one to blame or hate.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Definitely, I imagine most of new redpillers are young guys starving for pussy. It's hard to carry across the message that you should aim to just be the best version of yourself, regardless of pussy. But you're right, it comes after a certain age.

As for women, yeah I'd say I got them pretty much figured out. Which doesn't mean that I fuck models, not trying to brag. But it's more about me still having to improve. Not all girls find me good looking, but once I can talk to them I get what I want from them.

[–]SPREAD_THE_LOVE_77912 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Best book or material to learn how to improve body language?

[–]thebaconpig2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I’d be chatting up a girl and, in the meantime, would calmly say in my mind, while looking at her: “girl you act like you don’t care but you’re mine, and you already know it” or any message that you want to send. Of course it’s not like I do this to motivate myself. Rather, my facial features react to this message I’m confidently stating in my head, and reflect it." Just commenting to save that bit, that was good.

[–]BreakingRed_2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men tend to look at things in parts (we’re attracted to boobs or butts, we will look at a guy’s shoulders and assume he is strong, etc.) whereas women get a feel for the overall thing.

Did we just explained why men tend to get into engineering/crafting professions naturally, whereas women tend to be caring and artistic with a "big picture" viewpoint?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why do you care what they are thinking of you? Pussy worshipping at its best. Be however the fuck you want to be regardless of whether some female thinks you take up less space in a room than is required to be a 'real man'.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is not pussy worshipping. This is learning about pussy. If you don't understand the world around you, you're not able to be free from its constraints.

Best part in fake it till you make it is the make it part. If you become the badass, confident man you should be, you won’t have to worry about all this. It will come out naturally.

First you understand how women work. Even if you don't want to fuck them, it's pretty interesting. Learning about reality is one thing that men do.

Second, you realize you are now able to aquire the pussy commodity whenever you like. It reduces drastically the value you put on pussy, because now you understand how to get it whenever you feel like it. This is the path the freedom.

Third, you can now, as you suggests, be however the fuck you want to be, because you know all the ins and outs. You're right, you don't have to necessarily take up more space in a room. But at least now you know what it does to your environment.

Still, knowledge is key. Being a free wise man is way better than being a free idiot.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Learning about women is one thing. It has taught me more than anything I ever learned in school and has saved me from a lot of shit regarding relationships. However, knowing women inside out and using that knowledge to change simple things like the way you stand or hold your head just to get in their pants are two different things. You can be "alpha" or "hold frame" in every way possible but it's all the same in the end. You are nothing to them and they will use you in every way possible. I understand what you're saying. You're right, knowledge is key and it can take you down some paths you never knew existed but I suppose I just see it differently to you. As long as you're happy doing what you're doing my opinions don't matter.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You sound very MGTOW, and it's not a bad thing, I'm tending more and more towards that as well, and I spend more time now rejecting female advances and doing other stuff.

But TRP is a place for men to learn about women and the sexual marketplace specifically. With that knowledge, some of us will decide to fuck a thousand women by any means, and some will decide to focus on more interesting stuff, like you and I apparently. Still, their option is as valid as ours, we're not judging.

Also and more importantly, I think the learning process cannot be totally abstract and rational. I remember the first time I applied TRP principles socially, I obviously did it with the idea to get pussy. But the results were way beyond pussy itself. If it wasn't for my initial obsession with pussy, it would have taken me way longer to develop my own strong and confident personality, my frame. I came out of these learning years a better womanizer and a better man, but what sticked was the better man part.

Of course I agree that women are not worth so much effort, but what we don't realize is that young men will not spend so much energy chasing something else. And while they're chasing pussy, they are growing faster than they would doing something else (at least at first, until they get it out of their system).

[–]insuman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, even if she is blowing up your phone and begging to deep throat you all you are two her are a source of feels and a cock. A woman never says put your dick inside me, it's put yourself inside me. AWALT.

[–]yumyumgivemesome1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is very clever and thoroughly supported with your analysis. Excellent contribution.

[–]BlackFire681 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let her observe. I’m hiding nothing and don’t really care what she thinks

[–]hiddenpersona1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Good points, I also think this is not limited to female observation only. Maybe it’s just me because since TRP I pay attention to little things like that too and a second of glance at some men I can tell how they are feeling, how insecure they are or how confident they are. Some muscular, handsome men have low confidence vibes even though they look tough you can just pick it up from their eyes. Sometimes the most skinny, weird, tall, poor looking guys vibrate heavy confidence vibes and they annoy me a lot. Maybe the confidence comes from being tired, having zero responsibilities and things to do and giving zero fucks because all they do is listen hateful music and smoke pot in their torn sweaters. I’m having some problems with this. The more organized, disciplined and sober I get my confidence levels drop because I fear slipping away into the chaos and losing all of my gains and other shit. I feel confident when I stop giving a shit about my diet, sleep, life. It peaks in a week then it’s all downhill and I get ugly fat and grey.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Same here. Those cycles have become troublesome: how comes when I'm a carefree party drug user my confidence is up-high, but when I'm focused and in better physical shape I lose the mojo?

I don't know why they come when they do, but I've come to think of these low-confidence times as a necessity: we have to feel scared, we have to feel like losers sometimes, because it provides us with another rush that activates 'survival mode' and kicks us forward.

[–]chelseafc18 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Body language is and has been more important than words throughout most of human history. Remember, cavemen didn't speak. Language is a relatively new element in human history.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So true! Words are way more efficient, and since we've invented them, we have forgotten body language. But it's still what we've used for the major part of our existence as a species, it's in our dna.

[–]doctorcoolpop1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This may be true but what's the conclusion - that we should somehow control and manage all these things? that kind of manipulation would be quite fatiguing .. why not just give it a rest and be yourself?

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. I'm not specifically advocating for becoming self-conscious of all these covert interactions.

I still think it's good to know they exist. The end game for all of us is to be your natural alpha self. But ways to get there vary. Some will learn by rationalizing things and applying techniques, like I did. 'Faking' alphaness helped me get a feel of how it should be, and then I grew into that person. Others, like you, will be better off focusing on themselves from the get go.

Knowledge, and what you do with it, still are two different things. I think it's good to know how things work, and then you decide for yourself how you want to address it.

[–]shakespeareSMG1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good post.

First impressions are important.

Reminds me of Mr. Subliminal from SNL

[–]kaspell1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The one I usually fail in mannerisms is talking too fast. But it's something that I find translates not just for women but also in a work place setting. I find ways to use it to my advantage with women typically. As with all things, pick your battles and play to your strengths.

Talking fast for me is more-so frustrating for me in work settings than in social life. It's a part of who I am since a child though, and not indicative necessarily of confidence, but you can't fight evolutionary cues in the social framework.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fast talkers are usually asociated with peoples who get lost listening to themselves, and lack in their ability to listen. I don't know if it applies to you. If your're fast but collected, and you listen to others and it's fun to have a back and forth conversation with you, then it's all good.

[–]Art_Vandelay801 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

First and foremost, allow me to say that I found your post to be very interesting and intellectual, given the subject matter.

Women are very complex and complicated (no pun intended) though they will never admit to it. In all honesty, they never want to be wrong, or take accountability for any of their actions and for that matter their own thoughts. They want their cake and "eat it too!". Pardon the cliché.

The thing is, that women - no mater their ideology or political belief - don't want to be responsible at all for their actions. I've seen this first hand, because I was raised by two women. I love them to death, but at the same time they gave me so much insight into the soul of a woman, their essence if you will.

My point, is that maybe TRP group is reading into this subject of the sexes (male/female) too much! We are human and imperfect. And you will get a woman based on your social status, charisma, intellect, decisiveness (self confidence, tone, aggressiveness, attitude etc etc) sexual performance. That's it! And kiddo, that's a fact. Don't try to overanalyze women, because it's a waste of fucking time! Some are good and some are bad. "Don't pitch the bitch". If she wants to fuck you, she will fuck you. Be yourself and yes, go your own way but don't overanalyze it. In the end, they have needs, we have needs and their crap stinks, no matter if the are a 1 or a 10. That's my two cents.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good trolling

[–]1UPZ_1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So same thing men do to women they're interested in.

And men who are interested in men... personally and professionally (when trying to figure out someone at work).

Physical language is as important as the things coming out of your mouth when someone is trying to figure you out.... if you're just figuring this out... wow.

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The difference is that we men use this as complementary information. Of course we're gonna notice the body language, but it's not gonna be the primary source of information exchange.

For women I believe it is.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You cannot fake frame and you cannot fake your confidence till you "make it". Women are wired for dominance signals and incongruence to this only. You can lie to women about many things but not about your own perceived status, ie. your level of dominance. The whole goal here is actually to make yourself comfortable in tense social situations, your body language is most important when you are not comfortable because the girl will always look to you for how she should feel about whatever is going on. Mind scripts will not save you

The frame statements in your head are along the right lines but it takes the discipline of buddhist monks to bring your attention to this in the moment. You may as well maintain the delusion that all women want you. From morning to midnight, keep looking for things that support this. You are right in that the quickest way to send the right signals is simply to think dominantly, however only dominant people think dominantly. A passing thought is not enough, it has to resonate.

There is only one way so it is the also the quickest way, working on yourself as an honest man. You're either going to get there in let's say two years or you're not going to get there at all. Fix your posture with iron in the gym, stretching to relax your stressed out body, go do public speaking to improve your tone of voice. The list goes on, it is work. You will have many habits that give you away. Many guys come from a background of depression and have subtle things like looking at the ground for a split second. Only hard work from awareness will fix this. You really want to be honest with yourself here and see why you do these things. After the hard work comes pussy showers because so few guys are aware this is even a thing. That their bodies are getting them blown off almost instantly.

The good news about this is that because it's non verbal language, it's irrational. It's not real. You can make a 180 turn in how you move through the world and nobody will be aware of it but you. Don't be in a rush to make an impression with girls with your new found knowledge. When you are with a women, just keep in conscious mind to move slower and relax but you want the bulk of your attention to be on the woman, watching her little cues. Do it right, do it once and reap the rewards

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree wholeheartedly. If TRP is about faking, we're just PUA. The end goal must be to grow as a man and become the guy we needed to fake.

Yet, there are different ways to get there. Some guys will find the path on their own, but other will need to fake this feeling so that they know what to seek, what to look for. I know it has been my case. Just like faking your posture: it's gonna hurt to walk straight, but you'll also finally be conscious about the muscle groups that are weak and/or hurting. Then you where to work.

So yes, we need to become naturally confident and dominant, but some people need to fake it for a while as part of the learning process.

[–]MaiaSan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Way to massively overcomplicate things bro

[–]Greek-God-Brody1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is such a valuable post. I've been going on a lot of dates recently and reached the same conclusions as those articulated in this post. This explains why many women didn't want to see me after the 1st date, even though logically the interaction went well, we connected verbally and such.

It was all about what my body language was transmitting. Anxiety, nervousness, weird gestures, fearful voice tonality all these were proof of not being masculine enough.

It's amazing once you realize how less what you actually say matter.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't overly focus on this though or you'll end up looking like an awkward asshole that doesn't know what to do with their hands

[–]TheOneWhoDidntCum1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So clear so concise - thank you. I remember being in the elevator with my gf and in came in a girl I knew but wasn't too interested in then. We chatted a bit and that was it. Later on my gf told me how they had secretly had communicated saying such things as : "are you with him, is this a serious relationship etc" between her and my gf. (My gf told me that). I was shocked as I thought I was talking to her and yet she was communicating with my gf instead.

[–]alexclarkbarry0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

For the watching your eyes part, she is actively looking to see where you are looking. Look her in the eyes or mouth, DON'T TALK TO HER BOOBS! She can see you looking down and it kills your chances. Small but important, thought it needed adding.

[–]_clay_davis0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SS29071 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lmao, knew thats what I was clicking on.

[–]notsuperimportant0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men need to stop thinking the world revolves around them. I could hardly even get through this post, I was so bored of you talking.

[–]Morphs_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is why banter works so well, it's always presented in a light, playful tone that sets the right mood of you taking her not very seriously. On the other hand, if you start to talk very seriously about your job then it's much harder to create a fun atmosphere.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMetalgear2220 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post and spot on. It's not what you say; it's how you say it.

I’d be chatting up a girl and, in the meantime, would calmly say in my mind, while looking at her: “girl you act like you don’t care but you’re mine, and you already know it” or any message that you want to send.

This is gold.

[–]grapesandmelons123-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Uh as a woman, ill say its not that complicated.

  1. Be confident but not cocky
  2. Be a gentleman
  3. Be yourself.

If she dosent vibe with you then she dosent vibe with you. its not your fault. Some women like caviar but some like catfish. Theres like a thousand fishes in the sea.

[–]1Sir_Distic2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What does "be a gentleman" mean to you?

What does "be yourself" mean to you?

[–]Endorsed ContributorPopeman79[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are born, men are made. Your advice makes sense from a woman's point of view, because women don't change much. They are what they are from an early age, personality-wise.

Men change constantly. When we face a new challenge, either we understand it and overcome it, and we change for the better (become confident), or we can't break it down and we change for the worst (become weak and bitter).

This is why we men have to overanalyze everything, and you don't. The charismatic guy that you 'vibe' with became that after many changes in his life, whereas you are you since probably earlier in your life.

[–]IWillBeTheHope-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I hate how we make getting women this complicated. They're just human beings. Live a little.

[–]russbussdp2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed, but some guys need step by step instructions before they can naturally implement effective behaviors.

[–]BIGSTEVEN1987-5 points-4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wth there's way too much to read. Why did you put a whole essay up there. And then I'm supposed to read all the comments. That would take me all day, yes it bc I'm slow Har de har

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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