~ archived since 2018 ~

AWALT but mine...

September 11, 2017
0 upvotes

Career beta - 53 - Married 23 years, 2 kids, 12 months in therapy by myself 2 months in therapy with her... 4 months in... lifting... eating right... owning my shit around the house and with the kids. Stepping up in ways I've never done before. Working on getting busy with dread level 3. Wife has responded some...

The issue here is that she's got her own really deep emotional problems. It's not mental illness but it's deep dark shit that keeps her from behaving like the women in her in the field reports. I'm far too ashamed to describe things in more detail but it's not my fault. All the years in this marriage, she's had some really strong emotional reactions that I've never told anyone about. I didn't understand what was going on and felt powerless that there was anything that would help. I've hidden it from friends and family out of shame. Only recently, have I been able to tell my therapist. It's hard for me right now to write this out. I know most MRP's are going to say eject but I'm not there yet.

She doesn't get worried that I'll leave her and try to get close to me. She pulls back and goes into an almost catatonic shell. There is very little emotional or sexual intimacy. MRP has helped us to have more sex but it's very restricted and almost always the same, safe PIV with no foreplay or anything. It didn't always used to be that way but I think I might have gotten overly aggressive in bed and triggered something. There was a period of about 5 years where we started to get things back on track with sex and were able to enjoy and experiment and really have fun. That was good even if it wasn't frequent.

The sex was good before we moved in together, but once we did, she got really weird about it and so most of our married life sex was duty once or twice a month if that. At one point, after kids, we went a year and half without sex. Our interactions over the years, have gotten to the point where we could hardly get along for a few minutes to do anything together. For most of the month, we'd avoid each other. She built a life around the kids and her interests. I disconnect behind work, porn and dreams of making money. For years, she was rightfully angry for abandoning her to do all the hard stuff. Honestly, I avoided working with on just about anything because she is so difficult and controlling. For years, we basically took any opportunity to spend time apart.

I plated 3 different girls at one point and have various no strings sex. That's fun enough but doesn't help the problem. I still want my wife.

I'm not bad looking and I have game. I can talk to anyone. It's not difficult for me to get IOI but I don't bother closing.

I've always been the worst kind of Mr. Nice Guy until recently reading the sidebar books and working with great progress with a therapist I trust. I'm finally coming to terms with somethings about myself and I'm moving forward in my life. Wife has joined me in therapy but considers all the issues my problems and absolutely none of hers. She's happy they way things are. She doesn't know what more I could possible want from me and is afraid that I'll never be satisfied.

Doing therapy and MRP at the same time is a little odd. MRP is something you don't talk about while therapy is the opposite. I think if I had the run of the mill issues I see posted here, I 'd just stick with MRP. I've made progress but also colossally fucked up. Progress isn't easy. Therapy and MRP have helped me see my side of the issue and I'm working my ass off to work on myself. There are days where I've had too much and just want to be away from her.

This weekend, I was planning my escape from there when we got some emotional texts from daughter who's away for her first year of school. We've been though this and it's exhausting for both of us. I didn't want to deal with it and was having thoughts of just getting away from all this when it hit me that this, all this, was my making and that I could make a difference by leading the wife and family. I stepped up the best I could and realized that everyone is just trying to do the best they can. My daughter doesn't want to be an emotional mess. My wife doesn't want to be a wounded, hurt pile of anxiety. She's doing the best she can.

I occurred to me that how I behave in this situation will shape my children's lives forever. If I crumble when things get tough, they will learn to do the same. I'm responsible for the good lives these people have. I've helped her parents. I am the center of this family even if they may not really understand that. I still think I can lead all these people to better times.

My fear is that while I'm able to improve myself, she will never be able to examine herself and change how she is. I know I'm only 4 months in so bailing now is just stupid. I intend to work MRP and therapy until the bitter fucking end.

We've done couples therapy for 2 months and it's done us good. We've made progress on being able to be in the same room together. We cook together. We work on the house and bills. We do things now together that we've never been able to do. The sex is improving slightly but ever so slightly. MRP alone isn't going to fix that.

I say I'm on step 3 but I'm all wrapped up in my sad sack life. I think of almost nothing but how can I fix this. I read. I do therapy once, sometimes twice a week. Fuck sometimes do therapy three times a week if you count couples therapy. I've given up hobbies and any friends. I'm consumed but this which makes it hard to get busy.

We have a couples therapy appointment this week and I'm just about at the point of saying that she has to admit that there is more going her than just me and that she has to work on her own problems or I'm done. I'm afraid to do that but I don't see any other way at this point. I could spend the time talking about how to resolve some trivial household issue but that just doesn't feel honest and doesn't really address the real fucking issue.

Any advise?

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Post Information
Title AWALT but mine...
Author chachaChad
Upvotes 0
Comments 109
Date September 11, 2017 5:13 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/askMRP
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/askMRP/awalt-but-mine.205490
https://theredarchive.com/post/205490
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/6zgs3u/awalt_but_mine/
Comments

[–]BobbyPeru2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Your post is rambling and somewhat random in parts

What you need to ask yourself is why are you still with her. and why do you continue to cover up for her?

[–]innominating0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why is she still with him is the better question. Any time I see an anxious wife, I know the is a nice guy, non-assertive pussy close by.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm just about at the point of saying that she has to admit that there is more going her than just me and that she has to work on her own problems or I'm done. I'm afraid to do that but I don't see any other way at this point.

So you're only 4 months in after two decades of fuck-up, you're failing at Dread Level 3, and your solution is to jump directly to Dread Level 10???

Rambo, anyone?

[–]weakandsensitive4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

This is so vague as to be meaningless.

You want to talk about owning your shit? Well, do it. Actually own it.

Not sure what you're scared about, but you sure as shit aren't unapologetic for what's happening in your life. You're still in fear of it, which is why you won't even talk anonymously to random strangers about it.

Meh.

If you don't want to tackle it, there's no reason to expect anyone else to want to tackle it either.

If you want to work in hackneyed cliches, you're going to get answers which are hackneyed cliches (and hence unapplicable).

The beauty of OYS is how raw it is. You've been here 1-2 months and you've never been in OYS. You're not willing to get raw.

Feel free to keep getting jerked off over in askTRP and TRP. I'm sure it's nice getting those points. But let's not bullshit about you not actually putting in work to fix your own shit.

If you can't even handle your own shit, why in the world would you expect any woman to trust that you're strong enough to handle her shit as well?

I guarantee you if my wife didn't trust I could handle her shit, she wouldn't tell me half of it. It's the same reason betas don't get the real reason they get rejected. Weak men get treated like weak men. Surprise, surprise.

Also - nice massive covert contract you have there.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't elaborate in the top post but did add most detail in later posts and, as you say, the answers got more accurate.

Weak men get treated like weak men. Surprise, surprise.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I like how 30 years later, and she's still crippled. If anything, I bet it's an excuse she's built up over the years, in order to cope with a poor SOB that she can't be bothered to fuck.

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ouch... I was wondering when you would show up.

I admit I was afraid to talk about it with anyone but here I am learning how to talk about it.

Also - nice massive covert contract you have there.

I don't quite understand this comment. You mean my convert contract is that if I fix myself a little, she'll fuck me like her abusers?

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Still so vague as to be meaningless. You get in what you put out. If you're just gonna post surface fluff, you're going to get surface fluff answers.

I haven't spent too much time reading the comments if that's what you're referring to.

The spinning plates was probably good because you saw what's out there. But you went to spin plate as an avoidance tactic, so naturally that wasn't satisfying. It just threw in your face how much weak you were in your marriage.

N.B.D. You figure out how you want to process and proceed.

Re-read your post and see if you can spot your own contracts.

[–]anythingincRed Beret4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

therapy with her

Before my divorce my ex and I went to a pretty based therapist for counseling, went together once and then I saw her solo. Anyway, she saw the writing on the wall and said something to me I haven't forgotten.

Don't you think she wants an equal?"

Now, we here at MRP know that she would prefer someone with a higher SMV/MMV, but I understand if a counselor can't say that.

Anyway, I wasn't her equal. I wasn't as committed to bettering my career, I wasn't owning shit around the house, I was letting her do all the "emotional labor" and just following orders when I needed to, I was subservient to our relationship instead of actually being a fully-fledged individual who just happened to be in a relationship and made up half of it.

So that's my advice to you. Work on being an attractive, successful, healthy individual...because your relationship can't be better if you are not better.

There are a hundred of examples around here of men who became better, more responsible people, and their relationships improved, or the man became healthy enough to see that his wife and their relationship was toxic and he could do better.

Hours of therapy a week

What do you talk about? Your regrets and resentments and anger aren't serving you, and if that is all you are talking about then you are literally paying someone to listen to your bullshit that nobody cares about. What if you told your therapist "I'm tired of just bitching to you, can you help me be better?"

What if you woke up one morning, and decided you were not going to be bitter or angry or resentful?

This is my body, I'm going to make it attractive. This is my house, I'm going to take care of everything in it. This is my family, I'm going to look out for it and take care of it. I'm going to do all this and expect nothing in return, no appreciation, no thanks, nothing to be resentful or angry about.

Amazingly, when a man can do that, and can look in a mirror and like what he sees, a woman in his life is likely to like what she sees as well, and fashion herself in his image.

It's not mental illness but it's deep dark shit that keeps her from behaving like the women in here in the field reports.

You wouldn't know, because you don't own your shit, you don't have a frame yet. Until you are attractive and healthy and have a good frame that she can live in you don't know what the fuck it will be like.

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Now, we here at MRP know that she would prefer someone with a higher SMV/MMV, but I understand if a counselor can't say that.

No, my counselor was able to say that to me directly. I've been working now for over a year to be what he calls "being upright" which translate directly to having a solid frame and owning your shit.

I am working on myself to be better but, if I'm being honest, I'm sloppy about it. Also, I don't think just me being a better man is going to make her face her own deep issues.

You wouldn't know, because you don't own your shit, you don't have a frame yet. Until you are attractive and healthy and have a good frame that she can live in you don't know what the fuck it will be like.

And there it is... I've done some work and I want it to be enough but it's not even close.

[–]weakandsensitive3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also, I don't think just me being a better man is going to make her face her own deep issues.

Stop worrying about her you fucking faggot. You want to make her fucking problem your fucking problemtm instead of focusing on fixing your fucking problemtm.

that's your covert contract that you can't recognize mr. immasavethisfuckinghoe.

[–]innominating0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You have to change your whole mentality. You are trying to improve yourself to change her. That is a giant covert contract. She will not ch age under those conditions.

Paradoxically, if you improve yourself for yourself, without regard to her or her behavior, there is a much better chance her behavior will change as well. Most importantly, even if her behavior doesn't change for the better, you will have improved, and you will feel great about it.

[–]anythingincRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

https://www.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/620ldc/need_some_advice_on_how_to_respond/dfj23fp/?context=3

Also, I don't think just me being a better man is going to make her face her own deep issues.

You can't make her do it, but living in her shitty frame makes it worse. If you were attractive and healthy with a healthy frame, and she lived in yours, things would likely be better. You probably did have a frame and attraction initially (hopefully something made you date/marry her besides savior/martyr syndrome), but over the years it has withered and broken and the more she lives in her tragic reality instead of the one you make for yourselves the worse it has gotten.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

YUP.

At one time, I did have a strong frame and yes, I did date her and marry her for more than just saving her.

I can pinpoint it to how I reacted when we had kids. I fell apart and she was left to lead the way. She lead the best she could while I checked out. That's my fault.

That's over. I've checked back in.

Thanks.

[–]anythingincRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

  • That's over. I've checked back in...I am working on myself to be better.

  • I think of almost nothing but how can I fix this.... I'm just about at the point of saying that she has to admit that there is more going her than just me and that she has to work on her own problems or I'm done. I'm afraid to do that but I don't see any other way at this point.

These two statements are mutually exclusive at worst and cognitive dissonance at best. You can either talk her into acting better so she can make your life better, or expect that you can make your life better irrespective of her. If I had a choice, I'd choose to believe in myself versus being powerless.

[–]matrixtospartanatLVRed Beret2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

23 years of marriage.

4 months in...

Dread level 3...

And things aren't right yet?

Really?

You mean you went to a 2 year college and before the end of your first semester they didn't hand you your 2-year degree just for showing up the first four months?

Really?

Dude, c'mon man.

I've read some of your posts, enjoyed most of your comments, but I gotta call you on your bullshit here...

You are being a childish, impatient, motherfucker.

I'm sorry about the shit show of your decades+ marriage, stressed out kids and fucked up wife.

You own it, it's all your fault, but you are forgetting two pillars of MRP praxeology;

1) You can only fix YOU.

2) Success = work + time

You have NOT success because you have done a little work, but not the time, which in your case is TWO FUCKING YEARS!

When your SMV, inside and out, is +1-2 of the wife, AND you are a solid DL5 and have been for awhile up to the 2 year mark, you may find yourself in a far better situation than you are now.

But until then, remember that since YOU are the problem, so YOU are the answer.

Every moment you spend trying to fix your wife and/or your marriage is wasted energy, squandered resources, and a misapplication of MRP praxeology.

Pull your head out of HER ass, and get back to the task at hand...

Fixing YOU!

"In the event of an emergency, please put YOUR mask on first before attempting to help others."

Look at it this way.. you're too fucked up to fix her. Fix yourself.

So stop looking around, don't get distracted, and fix your shit.

Now get back to fucking work and stop looking at the clock, and don't even look at the calendar until fucking 2019.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I guess you're right. I'm working on the wrong fucking thing. I keep wanting to fix this marriage but I don't have any control over that. All I can do is fix myself. I do have to consider that no amount of self improvement is going to change her enough for me to want to stay.

[–]matrixtospartanatLVRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The point is for you to become the man she wants to change FOR.

And if she doesn't want to change then?

Who cares?

Your next pussy is just around the corner.

[–]hystericalbonding1 point2 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

I'm far too ashamed to describe things in more detail but it's not my fault

The thing I like about the red pill is the attempt to focus on prescriptive advice. Instead of generic comments about communication, time alone, or other meaningless statements, there's an attempt to discuss specific examples. That's hard enough to do when the story is known. Without the story, the best anyone can do is give generic advice and hope that you can reflect on it and how it might apply in your specific situation.

I'm just about at the point of saying that she has to admit that there is more going her than just me and that she has to work on her own problems

That's better than the current covert contract.

or I'm done

Are you confusing your escapist fantasies with reality? You said that you're not ready to end the marriage. It's therefore a weak ultimatum, and would be destructive to both of you.

I could spend the time talking about how to resolve some trivial household issue but that just doesn't feel honest and doesn't really address the real fucking issue

Subtext is what matters. Assertive communication from WISNIFG, DESC scripts, and other tools can help to ensure that the meanings are properly communicated. At the very least, those techniques will help to avoid getting wrapped up in the wrong issues. Therapy can be useful for this.

I've given up hobbies and any friends

You already know what we're going to say about this.

[–]chachaChad[S] 2 points3 points  (35 children) | Copy Link

She was abused as a child which included threats of death for her and her family is she told.

Later, at 14 she got involved with older guys and continued having sex and using drugs with lots of guys indiscriminately. At 19, she fled the city where she was from to go to college where it could be different. She was an HB9 in the city and an HB11 in a small rural college. She continued the drugs and promiscuity until it hurt her too much to continue. At that point, she changed and became prim and proper and that's when I entered the picture. I didn't know any of this stuff and I had my shit together. She clung to me and I clung to her. Over the years, her abuse and history catch up with her and us in various ways and we have been unable to deal with it.

Now, in our marriage and with me, she is ashamed of who she was. The sex is only quick PIV and isn't good. She's wounded and I've tried everything I know how to to reach her. I guess that's my problem right there.

[–]weakandsensitive2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

She picked a weak man who wouldn't abuse her. Unfortunately, the same weak man is not a man she can trust to help her carry her own burden.

You're a religious man, the poem footprints comes to mind.

  This really troubled me, so I asked the Lord about it.   "Lord, you said once I decided to follow you,   You'd walk with me all the way.   But I noticed that during the saddest and most troublesome times of my life,   there was only one set of footprints.   I don't understand why, when I needed You the most, You would leave me."    He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you   Never, ever, during your trials and testings.   When you saw only one set of footprints,   It was then that I carried you." 

Can you be trusted enough to carry her burden too? Guarantee you her answer is no.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

you know guys who can carry that weight when it was hidden? not that you are wrong in your comment in any way. But wondering

[–]weakandsensitive3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Idk. I have no practical advice in that specific situation. But the principle applies throughout human relationships.

Buy-in, leadership, etc. all involve giving trust that someone is going to lead you somewhere better.

edit: i misread your question a bit.

when it was hidden?

is a cause, consequence question. why do nice guys not get told why they're rejected? because they can't handle it. why do women not tell their men if/when they find other people attractive? because the emotional hissy fit isn't worth the trouble. why do women tell things to some men, but not others? how can the same woman go from boring missionary sex to being the "create your own slut" that TFA rights about? leadership, openness, lack of judgement, and trust.

my experience, and i'm sure it can be echoed, is that being able to handle information and not getting emotion leads to lots of openly shared information. being non-judgmental for example lets a woman talk freely. being discrete for example gets a bunch of other benefits too.

etc.

so why do people not open up? because almost every one of us knows situations where talking to some person about some details is just not worth it - because of x, y, z reasons. maybe it's your colleague who's a blabber mouth. maybe it's the friend who's really a wannabee white knight. nothing wrong with them in general, just some info isn't worth trusting that person with.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

true.

he got a lemon though. The only thing he could have done, and should have , is to leave.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I edited.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I see that.

from how I read his post, she turned religious or prim / proper before meeting him to get a guy like him.

So one day she tells him this stuff. and he freaks out just like most people would.

the bad part?

He tried to fix it for her.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

yup

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sorry. Not religious but I get what you're saying and you're right.

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah - but I don't have any practical advice.

Trust takes a long time to build, a short time to lose.

[–]BobbyPeru1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is all starting to make sense.

She's an alpha widow, and you were the textbook beta to pick up the pieces.

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much...

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Wow, this hurts to read. And it drives home the fact that we have to do our homework on the women we LTR.

Your wife was not LTR material my internet stranger. I am sorry to hear about her past, but you are stuck with that now if you stay with her, which I assume you are.

I see why you say therapy is important to you, but I have to say no amount of therapy will likely fix this issue.

Best just focus on yourself and kids. Hopefully your daughter is not repeating the sins of the mother.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

If you think it hurts to read, just think how it hurts to live... every fucking day. I used to be something. I was strong, smart, funny and likable. That's all gone now. I'm hollow and only recently just realized that I'm not broken.

It's important to remember that her abuse was not her fault. Her subsequent behavior is fucking textbook in these situations. Honestly, it's only though her own internal strength that she developed the ability to say no. The problem is she now has incredibly high barriers for emotional and physical intimacy.

To her credit, she is the best mother she could possible be given all this. My daughter isn't repeating any of the issues her mother had to face in anyway. My wife has been diligent about that. My daughter is in a awesome healthy relationship with another healthy person.

no amount of therapy will likely fix this issue. That hurts me inside to hear and know it might be true.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

As I think about this more I reflect on my own past of when I took a trip down the wrong side of the road. Granted abuse was not involved, but I have done my fair share of playing with the devil as many people have.

It is something I have internalized and realized that my scars are make me who I am. I do not allow them to break me down, and had I not done what I did, would not be who I am today.

My tenure with the devil was about 18 months, and it was pills. Never did any "hard drugs." I went to a few NA meetings to do my thing and move on with my life. It was all self imposed getting clean.

You wife played with the devil for a long time. Her Anti-Slut defense is probably through the roof, and now that you know how she has been in her younger years, well that plays hell with a woman's physic. It probably isn't the drugs she is ashamed of, but the sex she had when she was high.

You are her white night, and now that you know of how she acted, lets be honest you want to plow her like the other guys did when she was high as a kite, problem is that ship has sailed. All that is left now is the emotional baggage that goes along with it.

The only thing I can suggest would be to just have a final level set on her history, and never bring it up again. This is what I do not like about Therapy. Every week it is the same shit. Talking about the past.

Depressed people live in the past. Anxious people live in the future. Happy people live in the moment.

You need to start allowing yourself and your wife to live in the moment. Figure out how to short-circuit her ASD, and allow her to accept her past, as best she can. No amount of therapy will do this. At some point all your doing is talking, and not acting.

One of the hardest things for me to do when I got "clean" was to go back to a bar. I had associated a bar with getting high. So I avoided the bar. Eventually I realized that I could go to a bar and not get high, and actually have even more fun doing it because rather than the hang over and come down the next morning, I just had to worry about the hang over. LOL.

So if you want better sex, which she has likely associated her drug use to, you have to start pushing the sex front and getting her to DE-associate sex with drugs, and her past.

I have been to drugged up sex parties, and let me tell you - take the nastiest porn video and it is going on there. To be a woman at one of those things is TERRIBLE. So just accept the fact she probably had that happen to her.

Now, just work on moving forward with your life. Focus on yourself and the kids. Short-circuit the ASD, and stop talking about the past.

If I understand correctly this was over 20 years ago....a small lifetime.

My 2.5cents.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You make a lot of sense. It was over 30 years ago. Her abuse lasted from the age of 6 until about 20. She was given drugs including hard drugs by older men to use her sexually. She didn't know how to say no. When she was 15, she was institutionalized against her will by her parents. The facility she was in was emotionally and physically abusive.

Her anti-slut defense is through the roof and she has never displayed any of that former behavior around. She makes damn sure she's never alone with another man at any time. When we first together, I'm pretty sure she cheated on me but since I wanted my little angel to be prefect I believed her lies. That haunts me but since it was so long ago and she may have been adjusting her moral compass at that time, there isn't much to be done about that.

Yes, I am her white knight and I do want to plow her like all those guys and I can't understand why I, the guy that has given her so much, is kept out from her. She will only drink half glass of wine once or twice a year. Like most abuse survivors she has control issues. When she feels threaten, she explodes in a fireball of rage which I have been unable to withstand up until now.

I agree about not bring it up but it does come up. It comes up when we bump into an old boyfriend or when some guy send her e-mail looking to cheat on his wife. She won't join facebook or any social media because she is afraid people will find her. My wife is still smoking hot but dresses to hide everything and yet still guys hit on her wherever she goes. She doesn't want the attention in anyway. She tries hard to blend in and not be noticed.

She also exhibits behavior common in abuse survivors about compartmentalized memories. Sometimes she'll tell me about a guy with a large penis or some guy that was ripped or some guy that was a professor or some guy that was an artist. Once the conversation is over, she no longer remembers telling me about it. If I mention it again, she tells me she doesn't remember that. If I try to ask further she acts like I'm interrogating her. Her memory plays other tricks where she no longer recalls normal everyday things we did together. I'm seen it happen with in the space of 10 minutes. I don't give a fuck how much you own your shit or how ripped you are or how many plates you spin, that behavior will disturb you.

[–]2235521 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My 2c worth.

I spent 12 yrs trying to "fix" my wife. Her past, is not as ugly as your wifes, but my marriage resembled yours to some degree, and I was the cause of some of her issues (her parents did not approve of me, and hence they cut contact). So I carried a chip on my shoulder for a number of years. I tried to help my wife deal with her issues, every time she brought up the subject/issue, I would jump in and start planning how to help her, or what she should do. As our marriage became more distant, I dragged her to therapy, to make her better. I could only see that it was her issues/anxiety that was holding us back from a happy marriage. I rationalized, and excused her behavior because of her issues/trauma. I walked on egg shells, because I did not want to upset her, after all, she suffered a lot. She withdrew more and more into herself. Sounds familiar???

Enter MRP 9 months ago, start working on dread levels, covert contract was still to "shock" her out of her state, and turn her into a happy wife, with lots of sex. For the first 6 months, I identified, a number of issues that I have, that I had to work on myself, but still firmly believed, if only my wife got over her shit, things would get better.

I had to accept, that past is past, and I can not do anything about it. I don't have to feel guilty for what happened to my wife in the past, it was not my doing, and some of it were her choices. I did not sign up to be her therapist, or mental health nurse. It was the white knight mentality of trying to save her, that got me into this shit. Gradually over the past 9 months, i started to realize, her past, her anxiety, her issues, were not for me to fix. As she brings it up, I STFU and let her speak, and let it come out, I bite my tongue as I still want to jump in from time to time to explain to her what is going on, and how she should do things. Gradually, I am noticing she is starting to open up a bit more. This shit takes time, a long time. It will take time for your wife to overcome what she has been through, it will take her time to overcome the past 15 yrs of you being a BB. But it will only happen if you stop fretting over it, and start living/concentrating on yourself. You need to stop feeling guilty for what happened. You do feel guilty, your posts are laced with it. It was not your fault, and its not your responsibility to fix it.

It all comes back to working on yourself, and unfucking yourself. Until you do, you will keep getting into similar relationships. Past few months I have discovered so many more things, that I have to work on myself, that my wife's issues are far from my mind. I am there for her, when she needs someone to talk to. Women are not stupid, but they need to find their own way through their emotional maze, we can't do it for them. As you become a better, stronger man, she is much more likely to relax in your presence, and open up. BTW couples therapy did absolutely nothing for my marriage.

You are only 4 months in, you still have a very long way to go to becoming a better man, that should be your goal, let go of what happened to your wife. Hope that helps.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your wife is likely BPD. Her brain has formed these compartments to deal with the abuse no doubt.

IDK what to tell you man. You have to evaluate your sunk-cost and decide if it is worth spending the rest of your life with her.

You have less days ahead of you than behind unfortunately, so you have to figure out how to best spend them.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh and since your wife is 50, she is probably post-menoupause I assume? She will probably have no sex drive now anyway. Unless she is on female TRT or something her levels are not going to be that of a woman who is in proper breeding age.

My wife is 37 and has started female TRT to keep up with me as she was starting to feel the effects of aging herself.

I don't know if your wife is in the right place to get a hormone panel done, but where I live a lot of the MILF HB8's and higher are on female TRT to keep pace with their high SMV husbands.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She's not quite there yet but soon. I know that's a possibility. Wondering if that impending doom is bringing this all up for me now.

[–]rocknrollchuck-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is what I do not like about Therapy. Every week it is the same shit. Talking about the past.

Depressed people live in the past. Anxious people live in the future. Happy people live in the moment.

It has been said that when you bring the past into the present, you poison the future. I would be asking myself if her continuing in therapy is really helping, or is it causing more long-term damage and emotional trauma?

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I understand that sometimes you can do therapy that involves moving forward instead of going back. I'm afraid of what could do to her but I'm done pretending it doesn't exist.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

. She's wounded and I've tried everything I know how to to reach her. I guess that's my problem right there.

let me tell you a secret.

She sold you a lemon, and you keep taking it back to the shop hoping you'll get a well working vehicle back.

you got lied to.

are you not angry yet?

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I've been angry for years about and I used that anger to hurt her. It's time to be done being angry.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

let me get this straight. You were lied to ... fine.

but you are ok with both being lied to , and with the liar taking no responsibility for changing?

yup. You deserve to be unhappy because you do not value yourself

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I was angry for years that she didn't tell me more. I think I've gotten to a place where I think she did the best that she could. She could see that if she actually revealed more to me, I would have left her because I wasn't strong enough. I don't think she lied maliciously. Just because she was afraid. All these years later, that feels different to me.

I don't deserve to be unhappy. I'm working on unfucking my life this very moment. Believe it or not, it took some major work to just get here! I do value myself and I'm figuring out what to do about that.

I expect most of the advice from here to be that I should just leave her. I thought I'd made enough progress that it shouldn't be as hard as it is. I'm starting to see that I haven't done shit.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

she wanted a safe man to be with . She lied because she really thought she could be a good wife and mom. Only problem is, somehow, in her head, that doesn't involve sex.

She isn't a "bad person". She just isn't a functional wife.

[–]nastynickdrRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think she lied maliciously. Just because she was afraid.

You are still rationalizing for her. You are still making excuses for her. She knew if she told you about her past early on you wouldnt marry her.

Like other people said here, its not your fault the shit that happened to her. The lying was also bad on her part, period.

Now, its up to you to accept this or not. You cant change her past, or the fact that she lied. You want to give this a shot? Cool, the path is the same as any guy here. Own your shit, increase your SMV, work towards becoming a high value masculine man, decide what you want and the timeline. "If she isnt fucking me passionately within x months im out the door". Then it happens or it doesnt, if it doesnt you walk. Or you may decide you wont accept what happened and you leave. Make the decision and stick to it. Feeling sorry for yourself and for her wont help.

Also, you dont deserve anything. As a man its up to you to go get what you want and put in the effort necessary.

[–]hystericalbonding-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I see what you were getting at about triggering her.

Over the years, her abuse and history catch up with her and us in various ways and we have been unable to deal with it.

You know that it's not up to you to fix her. There's the Nice Guy, and there's the guy who's nice. The Nice Guy engages in caretaking and other codependent behaviors that maintain the status quo. The guy who's nice has empathy for her and loves her, but is able to maintain boundaries and set expectations in order to be mentally healthy. She's made of flesh and bone, not glass.

You're getting healthy. You can state your expectation that she does the same, if failure to meet that expectation will have consequences. That's not a threat to bludgeon her into doing your will, but a healthy boundary.

Regarding rule zero, there are many books on being with survivors of sexual abuse. You've probably read some. Trust is key. A codependent Nice Guy cannot be trusted. Someone who assertively and honestly expresses himself is more trustworthy. Congruence and consistency are key. Weakandsensitive talked this week about expressing emotion without expressing weakness. It's a similar idea. You have to be honest with yourself about what you want and how you feel, and it's your right to feel that way.

No doubt Sepean and others will come in to tell you to keep upping the alpha because their supposedly BPD wives are worse than yours (probably true) and now they're getting daily blowjobs. You'll have to figure out for yourself if the thrust of that argument is truly different from the "purple pill" stuff you've heard so far, even if the specifics are different.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I do know it's not up to me but I guess I haven't let go of the idea that if I fix myself, she will fix herself.

I haven't read any books on being with survivors of sexual abuse. I've google but not found anything that wasn't pray to jesus bullshit.

My mistake over the years is that when she told me this shit, I was weak... to weak to hear it.

[–]hystericalbonding-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

books on being with survivors of sexual abuse

I know some good therapists who are fans of Eliana Gil's book for counselors and victims of abuse, called Outgrowing the Pain. She wrote a follow-up for partners, called Outgrowing The Pain Together.

There are countless books on the topic with different perspectives. You can always check it out and see if it resonates with you.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret1 point2 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

I'm far too ashamed to describe things in more detail but it's not my fault.

It's always your fault.

You may reject this concept initially, I did as well. The point is not to own her actions but realize your part in things.

Why be ashamed of her behavior? Is it because you allowed it?

I'm not sure if my little unicorn is a narcissist but she sure knows the tools of the trade. She tried to break me about 1 year into our marriage, she almost succeeded.

Most people would run from shit like this, I own it. There's no room for complacency or vulnerability with women like this. It keeps me a stone cold motherfucker.

So will it break you?

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

Why be ashamed of her behavior? Is it because you allowed it?

Are you serious? I wasn't in the picture. I didn't allow the abuse or her behavior afterwards. Do you mean I allowed her to be ashamed of her abuse and behavior? That has some truth to it. I was hurt and ashamed because of my ego. Is that what you mean?

Honestly, my wife did break me... for a long time but that's over now.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (30 children) | Copy Link

You chose her.

[–]chachaChad[S] 2 points3 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I did. Had I known a tiny fraction of her past, I would certainly not have. I have brushes in the past with women that were abused and, each time, knew enough to pass on the easy sex.

I did chose her. If living with her as she is doesn't get better, I'm going to chose to be without her... but that's just not easy.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Had I known a tiny fraction of her past, I would certainly not have.

If living with her as she is doesn't get better, I'm going to chose to be without her

Not to get all Dr Phil on you, but she hasn't opened up this side to you for this reason. She knows this is the truth and is exactly why she kept it from you. This is your challenge more than anything and this likely goes back to the way you behaved when you first met and it is how she perceives you.

I get there are a lot of red flags here and you are in the situation you are in now. I also realize that she may never change.

Part of your improvement should be to increase your attractiveness. Also, part of your improvement should be figuring out how to apply dread AND make her feel comfortable doing those things with you. She's been pumped and dumped way too many times and has her anti-slut defense shields way the hell up. If she even senses a hint of repulsion in you for what she has done in the past she will shut down.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to get all Dr Phil on you, but she hasn't opened up this side to you for this reason. She knows this is the truth and is exactly why she kept it from you. This is your challenge more than anything and this likely goes back to the way you behaved when you first met and it is how she perceives you.

You're right on. When we first got together, I couldn't handle what she was saying. I was naive and simple. I had a partner count of 2. I just didn't know these things were possible and I was disgusted. I'm sure she feels that if she ever reveals herself to me that I'll be out the door. That was me.

Interestingly enough... as I develop more of a strong frame... she's told me more about the abuse. Now, when she says something I don't make a big deal about it. Today was first time she told me about the death threats when she was abused. I took her hand and sat close with her and let her talk.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Are you staying for kids?

There's a way out of this but it does not include fixing her in any way. You need to be okay with her being broken. Either that or GTFO.

I have to go lift now, you should probably be doing the same bro.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

.

Yes, if kids were not in the picture, I'd be gone yesterday. Life is too short.

It's ok that she's wounded. It's not my job to fix her.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I plated 3 different girls at one point and have various no strings sex. That's fun enough but doesn't help the problem. I still want my wife.

Idk bro I think you're not being honest with yourself. The most free I've felt in my marriage was when I realized I didn't care if I ever fucked her again.

You still want what she won't give.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Be desireless. Be Excellent. Be gone

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s true. I still want to fuck her over others.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, if kids were not in the picture, I'd be gone yesterday. Life is too short.

Calling BS here. I can't imagine your kids are all adults. You can play the kid card until they are legal adults, maximum

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Had I known a tiny fraction of her past, I would certainly not have.

You make a choice every day. Don't get it twisted- you now know all about her past and you choose her today.

[–]chachaChad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s a good point.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red-1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Your married 23 years. So you got married at 30. How old is she now? Have there been any other mistakes on her part in 23 years, or was all this per-marital?

You need to be honest. I have way more time invested in this thread than I expected, and my flight leaves soon. So fess up. What else are you not telling us? No time for female trickle truth here.

What is the real reason you care who and how your wife fucked before you met her? I mean that shit is ancient history now.

It isn't going away because you are not allowing it to go away. These guys that fucked her brains out when she was high are long gone from the picture. They only exist as an imagine in your brain.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

.

Yup. All before I showed up except possible once when we first together. Since then, her behavior has been good but I still have the fear that someday she could slip and turn back to her old ways. I realize that's just me and it's not what's really happening.

I think that's what you're getting at. I'm just hurt she's not letting me do that shit to her that those guys got to do.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

She has the issue, hes dealing with the outcome.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

From what I can tell he is unable to deal with how his wife behaved pre-marriage and due to his poor vetting process his ego is all butt hurt becuase he wife probably got ran like a train in her teens and 20's.

The question is, why does it matter now? 23 years in - at this point she is a reflection of him, not her 20 year old self. He has allowed this to happen and need to deal with the fact his wife was gang banged many times and deal with it accordingly.

No amount of therapy is going to do that. He needs to figure out how to make his SMV to the point where he can get more from her. He needs to short-circuit her ASD shields. He needs to stop thinking and talking about HER past.

Unless she has been whoring it up since he put a ring on her finger then he needs to look in the big boy mirror and say "Yeah, I married a fucked up woman, now I have to deal with it" and move on with his life.

His focus should be himself, not her.

Pretty sure we are in agreement, but OP is very confused and in major denial from what I can tell.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It matters now because she's closed down to me now. She's emotionally and sexually unavailable to me. Her anxiety makes it hard for her to function most days.

I agree that part of the problem here is me and my ego.

I guess I'm in denial but hoping that posting here might snap me out of it.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hmmmm...any recent changes that might have caused this?

How about the fact y'all are going to therapy now, and pulling out all the skeletons from her closet she has buried in there. Of course she is going to shut down. You are making her remember her past man. Old, stale past.

Again, stop the therapy. You are nuking your marriage doing it.

Get your old ass to the gym. Lift. STFU. Game your wife. Forget about the trains that were ran on her. Just get over it for Pete's sake.

Talking about shit doesn't accomplish shit. You need to STFU and get to work. I am done talking about your wife.

Unless you are going to post in this thread what you are going to do to become a better man, my participation is done. We have discussed your wife in enough detail. You have some stuff to work with, but the focus needs to be you.

Quit being a butt-hurt ego bruised faggot and get to work.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sexual abuse aside, which from what I'm reading was pretty terrible, your comments resonate with me very well.

Couples therapy and MRP are like oil and water.

This guy's predicament is unsolvable here. He isn't crating value or moving with actions. He is talking and thinking and sitting.

I'm out.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you have a pussy? Then why do you expect the world to motivate you to do anything for you?

Fuck your feelings, you deserve to be her plow horse. You are fighting tooth and nail for your life of quiet desperation.

Enjoy it, you earned it

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Fuck your feelings, you deserve to be her plow horse. You are fighting tooth and nail for your life of quiet desperation.

This has my scratching my head. I think you're onto something but I just don't understand. Can you elaborate?

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be a combo of both. Lets see what he says.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't allow her feelings, you have no control over that shit. You can't fix her.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

He chose poorly as well.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes the guys who choose poorly have the hardest road. You need frame like most of you will never know. It's a curse and a blessing like most things.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I chose poorly because I was weak. When I saw red flags of outrageous behavior such as yelling and freaking out, I calmed her down. From what I gather from her, other guys would tell her she was crazy and run. I was too needy and co-dependent to run. That was my fault.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes the guys who choose poorly have the hardest road.

True, but I'm a firm believer or that like it attracts like. So, guys who are choosing the really fucked up checks I really fucked up themselves usually. So, they have a long road to fix themselves in the first place.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's the only way.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are 53. Get your shit together.

She does not need couples therapy. You don't need therapy.

You need to lead.

Red pill 101, lift. Stfu. Be stoic. Be fun.

Red pill 102. Read about dread. Get through levels 1,2,3 and 4. By 4 even 20 years of lame leadership starts to upright itself.

All you need to do is be a fucking solid rock for 6 months. No rambo Shit. Just a fucking Rock.

Grow a beard. Lead. Lift. Read. Be all things masculine. Like as in right fucking now

Years and years of shit show and you want to turn it around ? Read above.

[–]markpf730 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You need to read the whole side bar again. It's all your fault.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

We have a couples therapy appointment this week and I'm just about at the point of saying that she has to admit that there is more going her than just me and that she has to work on her own problems or I'm done.

From my perspective I worry you're setting up an expectation for her behavior and these things tend to fail. I prefer to setup situations and expectations that are extremely difficult to lose and focus winning the long game.

So I'd set an expectation for yourself instead. Specifically your goal should be to explain the situation clearly and fully and why it's unacceptable for you to continue the status quo. Things that are extremely defensible based on the WISNIFG Assertive Rights. That means grounding things in your feelings.

She's likely to be extremely defensive and you expect that from her and I'd assume it will logjam. I would focus more on explaining the problem and your experience without assigning blame or trying to explain how her behavior factors into it. It's very tempting to expect that laying out the problem makes the answers obvious and so if there is no immediate response that it has "failed". Lay out the problem and take any solution off the table (=her admitting anything is a "solution"/"resolution").

There's this panel from a children's parenting book I keep meaning to scan but it's basically about how pointless it is to argue with a little kid when they say they won't wear their coat because they feel hot and it's cold out. It's impossible to win that argument based on telling them they don't feel hot. You just let them be cold and then they'll ask for their coat soon enough.

So I would completely take the goal of solutions and resolutions off the table until your wife understands and accepts for herself that your perspective is valid and there's nothing she can do to deny the reality of your feelings on the matter. That's not the same as her accepting any responsibility for the situation.

You've put in a lot of mental work processing things and they are much clearer to you. It's extremely frustrating because you want a solution or resolution. That's what you're looking for by wanting her to admit blame and responsibility. But that's very unlikely to be successful.

My guess is you would be satisfied with her starting to develop her own understanding of how she contributes to your misery. IMHO the only way she can do that is by having the situation in her head and giving her time to process and ask questions.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you so, so much. This is what I needed to hear. This right here.

Yes, I've never been able to stand up for myself and explain it to her. She's an expert at not talking to me on anything but a superficial level. One thing the therapist is useful for is that she doesn't display all her rage and furry if someone else is in the room. I guess I need the support.

I'm going to take your advise and write something up so I have a sense of what I want to say.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

RP works when you're 52

Read /u/Olderpiller s MAP. Read what garbage you wrote, tell me what you take from this.

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

52

I have no doubt it works when you're older. I'm made some great improvements and other women notice. The problem is my wife isn't like other women because of the abuse.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes, a dog needs to be put down when it gets old and broken.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

The problem is my wife isn't like other women because of the abuse.

I call bull shit

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, I know dominance in bed does not work with her. I'm not sure I believe that if I were ripped enough and handled my shit better that she would magically be able to cope with her shit better.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

you are missing my point.

your wife IS like other women. You have allowed her trauma to be her excuse to sentence you to a life of porn and plow horse

[–]chachaChad[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

ah fuck....

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

let me know when you get back up

[–]TurdDoctor-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

AWALT or not exactly AWALT? Some of us have questioned this along our MRP journey as we consider our special SO. Maybe the answer is not exactly AWALT but the mission is still the same. We work on our self improvement and see where it goes.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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