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(Update) Victim Puke: SON of Negative Space - The Negative Spacening

March 8, 2017

I don't mean to hog this board, so I won't be posting for a while. But I wanted to include this update to my previous thread, since I personally get a lot of value from reading people's updates.

First off, I wanted to say thank you to everyone for all the comments and insight. I post here to get feedback from people that think and see things differently, and that's incredibly helpful. Thanks.

A few days have passed, and the pain has faded a bit, allowing me to think a little more clearly. It's all still there - I keep replaying the conversation in my head, revisiting the pain like a tongue seeking a wobbly tooth - but my rational faculties have at least partially returned.

I wanted to break down a few of the major takeaways I got from this incident, and from everyone's comments.

Yes, my wife is not attracted to me.

I already knew that. The sudden shock came from really internalizing that the problem wasn't her libido, but me all along.

I knew that, too. But the convenient lie of the "mismatched libido" helped to smooth the edges and protect my ego. I honestly thought that if I made some minor changes, things would turn around. How hard could it be?

That was my ego, and Ego does not stand up to harsh reality particularly well.

No, I'm not ready to get divorced.

That was spite, and hurt, talking. The fantasy of presenting divorce papers and making her sorry was powerful...but ultimately, just masturbatory.

Many people pointed out that I had my wife on a pedestal, but it was more than that - I'd bit my entire self-identity around being "the nerd that made good and got the dream girl." I felt like I'd won at life...and having that ripped away was a direct attack on my self-image.

Which is why you shouldn't build your self-image on a foundation of validation from others. Lesson learned.

I haven't actually changed that much.

When it comes down it, what have I really done?

Gone to the gym. Ate less.

That's pretty much it. But my physical body was never my biggest weakness. It was just the easiest thing to work on and see improvement in, which is why I focused on it. Look, mommy! My bodyfat is dropping!

What needs work is my (lack of) frame. But that's maddeningly hard to deliberately practice or track improvement in, which frustrates my A-Type, goal-oriented personality. I can't measure it, so I can't see any improvement, so it feels like there's no improvement at all.

That's no excuse, however. I just need to get over the need for validation - this time, from the "scoreboard."

I desperately needed this to happen.

I'm not going to lie - it still hurts like a fucking bitch. I'm wincing as I type this. From the outside, it was just a small thing. For me, it was a massive trauma.

But I really needed that. Even during the first part of my MAP, everything I was doing was for her. I was (am?) still afraid of her moods, her emotionality, her disapproval. She was always going to the arbiter of whether I was successful or not.

The anger has faded, but it's left some space in my mind between me and her. I'm certainly not saying I'm now "out of her frame" or that I don't still love her - I do.

But I have fully accepted the fact that we will probably not be fixing this marriage. I don't think I am a MRP Success Story - "The Boy Who Fixed Things In Just Four Months!"

I'm just going to do my thing. I'm going to get on with my life. I'm going to raise some fucking awesome kids. I'm going to have fun with my friends and build an incredible business. I'm going to travel and read and explore the world. I'm going to work on my own psychic defenses - be OK with getting angry, with lashing out once in a while, with fighting for what I need and saying what I feel.

It's my life I need to save, not our marriage. If she joins me, great. If not, great. I'm just done being the bitch.

Every big improvement in my life - quitting my first shitty job, rebounding after almost killing myself, dropping weight after getting fat, starting my own business, even getting married to my wife - they all came after traumatic events, things that were so painful and so hurtful that they shook me loose.

This feels like one of those moments, where the status quo finally becomes untenable.

I think I needed 4 months of MRP just to get here. Now, I'm finally at the beginning, again.

Anyway, thanks for the tough talk. I'm sure there are many more weird psychological ticks in this post, but...Cheers.

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Post Information
Title (Update) Victim Puke: SON of Negative Space - The Negative Spacening
Author resolutions316
Upvotes 16
Comments 41
Date March 8, 2017 5:23 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/askMRP
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/askMRP/update-victim-puke-son-of-negative-space-the.206440
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5y984g/update_victim_puke_son_of_negative_space_the/
Red Pill terms in post

[–]2ndalRed Beret11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think I needed 4 months of MRP just to get here. Now, I'm finally at the beginning, again.

I've been focused on this for roughly twice as long as you, and I can say that you will likely find yourself "at the beginning" at least a few more times in my experience.

Try not to set a time frame or schedule for things that are out of your control. Any non-superficial improvements with your relationship will take a long fucking time (if it happens at all), and progress is unpredictable and wavering. Do set schedules and goals for things you can control, like weight loss, body fat percentage, cold approaches, and lifting.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You'll see your changes reflected in your kids first. They will more easily defer to you and be your biggest PR firm. Wives are mirrors with memory, hard-wired memory that needs to be replaced with consistent observation of you giving zero fucks and owning your shit.

Be the dad that your kids proudly tout to other kids "I bet my dad could beat up your dad." and "My dad is better than your dad." I've seen that happen from my daughter, and it's the fucking best. I discourage the taunt, but love that she believes it to her core.

Men have been trained by the world to dumb down intuition and subtext. Unfortunately, spreadsheets won't show you the results your looking for. The awful, gnawing feeling of inadequacy and lack of appreciation that you have is the indication something is wrong. Shouldn't the lack of that, replaced by feelings of acceptance and value to others on a gut level be indications of of living right?

Stop thinking so much, and observe your world softly, and not as a sharpened tool.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Kids are an excellent "tell." My daughters love to wrestle and horseplay with dad. I've jokingly told them, as their tiny fists pummel my leg or chest, "you can't hurt daddy. I'm invincible." They love it and try harder. One time my daughter got a good jump on me, landed right on my thigh and I let out an "ow!" Her face got serious and she says, "I thought nothing hurt you?" I realized she really believes that. I even horseplay with my BP friend's sons. They challenge me to lift then with one arm and stuff like that.

What were we talking about? Oh ya, frame. OP needs to solidify it. It's a long process. Honestly I'm not 100% consistently there yet either and I'm 15 months in.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Being divorced isn't the fail state for MRP.

Lashing out on a goodbye post, then joining exredpill/TBP would be, and we only have 2, far as I remember, alpha as wolf, and the flaired guy who kept modmailing his vacation photos

[–]resolutions316[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

People are weird.

Anyway, you're right about the "fail state." Fail state for me would be to simply acquiesce to a long, drawn-out shit show of a relationship, starved of affection until Chad comes along and sweeps my wife off her feet.

Things will get better or they won't. But I'll be better, no matter what.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also, for divorced guys, /u/ex_addict_bro has a story coming out of the fire that will make you thankful for your problems. Give his history a read if you get a chance, he's got the mindset down

u/the_litz is the best guy in here for self reflection and patient work.

u/samsonbrass is one of only two widowers I'm aware of.

IF you really get into this place, theres thousands of men who have insight that will help, theres enough in here to help anyman

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Here you go:


The difference so far between you and some of the other guys here is you can write reasonably eloquently and explain your mental spiral.

This has all been done before by many other guys. Stick with the plan on the Sidebar and your mental state will improve with time and effort.

[–]HelperBot_2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

HelperBot v1.1 /r/HelperBot_ I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 41071

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Who's a cute, little helper bot...that's right...you are...

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Didn't think there could of been a helper bot like this

[–]could-of-bot4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's either could HAVE or could'VE, but never could OF.

See Grammar Errors for more information.

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fast he is

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's better to suffer through the grind of improvement than to enjoy the comfort of a slow pain ful death which never includes a moment to actually live.

Find purpose in the grind; comfort in the discomfort.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I appreciate you letting us read your diary man.

Do you know why we say to lift?

You are looking for a validation pat. A reason to feel a slight dopamine rush as you read each reply. It doesnt even matter if its positive or negative. You are addicted to the idea of of being right. Of being IN the right.

It doesn't matter.

[–]AmericanViking640 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't matter.

fucking a-men

[–]weakandsensitive4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Talk is cheap. Report when you actually execute. You have permission to fuck women ego actually desire you. Be aware of potential costs.

Finally, start focusing on being a value giver for a change. This is different than being a pushover servant.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This post is progress again. If you keep at it, there will be many more.

I remember, 6 months into RP, being so depressed that I was not sure if I could get past it.

Working on changing yourself takes time. It is a long journey and it never ends.

[–]innominating5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You are a retard faggot. You are acting like you caught your wife being railed by a dude with a monster cock while screaming out how he's so much more of a man than you.

This is not traumatic. You have an issue with how you are allowing her escapades with a dildo to make you feel. You are jealous, and butthurt about your wife being sexual. You need to encourage her to be sexual, idiot.

You have no frame and have internalized little. Work on outcome independence and abundance mentality.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah. When the dust settles, OP will realize that he is much better off with a wife who uses a dildo to get herself off than with a wife who would rather not express her sexuality at all.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is a very good point for OP. There's lemonade in those lemons.

[–]WesternhagenWinner2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

"What needs work is my (lack of) frame. But that's maddeningly hard to deliberately practice or track improvement in, which frustrates my A-Type, goal-oriented personality. I can't measure it, so I can't see any improvement, so it feels like there's no improvement at all."

Agreed. Same problem here. Not even sure what the metrics are. Sometimes I make a note of failed shit tests, i.e., how they failed and what I should do differently. What's the frame equivalent of lifting for an hour three times a week? How do you practice strengthening your frame?

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The mistake is making it about fucking metrics. Ugh, I can't stand that fucking word. People who try and use metrics to gauge personal relationships are losers.

You can't metric your way into being cool, fun, and enjoyable to spend time with. You can't metric your way into frame. Fuck.

For example do you think the word metric appears even once in any of the sidebar materials? Is Pook running around talking about god damn metrics?

Fuck, get a life outside your work, business, boardroom, whatever, and realize metrics are not the be all and end all in life.

This is why your wife's not fucking you. Because you're trying to boil it down to metrics. Stop being autistic. Go out, have some FUN. Be FUN. Fuck your metrics.

All the metrics in the world won't help you if you come across as an autistic spaz.

[–]WesternhagenWinner0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Metric may not be the best word. What I'm getting at is how do I know I have a strong frame (or not)? With my kids I don't use any "metrics"; I just know that it is totally unthinkable that they could break the frame of "I am your father and I have authority over you" (and also, I have the initiative over what they're going to do and when they're going to do it). Much harder for me with women because bluepill conditioning is deeply ingrained (for one thing, my mom beat it into me with a wooden spoon across my ass from age 0 to 15). Spend decades being Mr. Nice Guy, and sorry, breaking free is not a simple matter of "get a life, stop being autistic, have fun". For me, anyway, maintaining frame with women is a HELL of a lot harder than lifting.

I actually DID have to keep track of how often I use kino and "bring the fun" because I was a lazy (and naturally introverted) husband who wasn't doing that, and I needed a way to force better habits.

The metrics are not important in and of themselves. I like looking at my gym log and seeing how far I've progressed, but at this point I could throw it away and it wouldn't hurt me. The important thing is breaking bad, old habits and creating new, good ones. Keeping any kind of record is just a way to OYS and hold your own feet in the fire as good habits are developed and bad ones discarded.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually it is as simple as you want to make it. Over thinking it just makes everything worse. Honestly, for me Book of Pook was extremely helpful in getting me back to where I started before slipping into betadom.

Really at the end of the day you need to spend less time analyzing (analysis paralysis) and more time just doing. During my journey so far I found that the key to frame lies in listening to the internal dialogue in my head. I ask myself what do I want to do or say, and then do or say exactly that.

No filter, no worrying about how it sounds or makes anyone else feel. Just "what do I want"?

If you need to keep track of kino, for me that's a serious red flag. Just do. Want to kino, then kino. Don't want to, then don't.

For me trying to keep track of results in a spreadsheet (if I do A, then B will happen) just seems like a recipe to overthink, be stiff and unnatural. No one likes a stiff, clumsy, try hard. Find the chill in yourself and let it out.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

go check out the Jacktenofhearts post on removing the scoreboard. probbaly right up your alley.

He's always been good at the aspie type spreadsheet men

[–]resolutions316[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think part of my problem is, at it's core, a lack of understanding about what frame actually is.

Shit tests are one thing - that's a discrete event with a particular outcome. But it's much harder to tell if I'm "in her frame," if frame, by definition, skews the way you view the world.

This is my big area of improvement, so I'm going to dedicate my mornings to this and only this (just like I dedicate late mornings to the gym). I need to reorient myself to what my own issues really are. Doubt there's an easy answer, though.

[–]WesternhagenWinner2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you are "raised bluepill" - like me - and have never operated from a dominant masculine frame, it is hard to know what it feels like. I am not one of these "former alpha" guys who can revert to acting like he did when he was single or use that mindset and behavior as a reference. I was desperate for female approval and strove to avoid confrontation with them or to express my own needs to them even when I was single. Yeah, it's nauseating to think about, and I'm pissed that I spent so much of my life that way. But hey, it's never too late to stop being a bitch.

[–]resolutions316[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is me in a nutshell. Still working on finding a positive model to look to, rather than a series of behaviors to avoid.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Try the classic 'hardboiled' detective fiction, by authors like Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler, or the movies.

[–]rocknrollchuck0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's the perfect definition of frame, from jacktenofhearts :

A homeless person asks you for a dollar. You refuse. The homeless person begins to argue with you about it. What do you do? Do you try to convince the homeless person that you are right? Do you give in and give him a dollar? Would you spend a couple hours of your day debating it? Are you going to be up at night thinking about it? The answer is none of those things. You are going to continue on doing what you are doing because it's just a waste of time to do otherwise. The homeless man has zero power over you and it's not worth your time, emotions or thoughts to debate the point.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There actually is a way to deliberately practice frame, as in "I'm going to work on my frame for the next hour" kind of thing. You could even track it in a loose way. I was going to do a separate post on this, but I'll just note it here:

Make your environment respond to you.

So whatever environment you're in at any given moment - with people, at a work meeting, driving, even sitting alone - you don't respond to your environment. Instead, you make your environment respond to you. So instead of letting the other person say something and then you respond, you choose the topic and speak first, and let them respond to you. You take the initiative, you lead, you set the tone first, and then you make the world accommodate you. You can deliberately practice doing this at any time.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The reactive mindset is forever catching up and counter-punching. This is living in a frame not of a man's own making.

The proactive man is the architect of his own frame. Your assertiveness exercise is very insightful and illustrative of the proactive man being the agenda setter.

[–]SepeanRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyway, thanks for the tough talk. I'm sure there are many more weird psychological ticks in this post

You're welcome. Solid repost.

Lift and lead, bro.

[–]mrpthrowa2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What's clear is that you still give way too many fucks, and way too many of those fucks you give are about her.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like you're in the middle of your crucible. You had enough motivation to know you needed it, and now you're in the middle of it and realizing it hurts like a bitch. Some men come out better. Some come out broke. Some come out worse.

My only advise is to not quit. Your future self will thank you.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's my life I need to save not our marriage. If she joins me, great. If not, great I'm just done being the a bitch.

"I think I needed 4 months of MRP just to get here. Now, I'm finally at the beginning, again"

Ya think ?

You ain't even scratched the surface yet. Trust me......

Here is some advice for your weak butt hurt shit frame..... Think of the most painful shit you been through, during a rejection from her, and you can the laugh it off.

Mine ? Another drunken beating from Dad, SO's shit don't fucking come close to that

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Letting your ego go is the first step, whether it takes 4 months or 2 days. Good luck.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Other guys have said it first but let me reiterate there will be setbacks, there will be wrong turns and shit like that. Right now you need to work on being less reactive/ faggoty and more focused on the long game. I'm not saying the dildo thing wouldn't rattle me because it probably would but OTOH it also suggests your wife isn't a total prude. If mine is telling the truth, she's never masturbated.

About a year into my MAP my wife threw a giant shit test at me in the form of trying to verbally take control of the sex "reins" again. I failed initially. Huge misstep for me but I have pressed on and recentered my drive on things I control.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

About a year into my MAP my wife threw a giant shit test at me in the form of trying to verbally take control of the sex "reins" again.

I'm curious what you mean by that?

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]donerkebabplease1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You should try working on your acceptance. Actually accepting now for what it is, without judgement. It is what it is, you are where you are. Don't deny it, feel it, feel that pain, feel that anger. Acknowledge it, accept it. Then go do something to change it. Read the fuck out of the sidebar, lift the fuck out those weights, read the sidebar again, lift some more. I read your last post and was about to reply suggesting you'd jumped ship too quick. You seem to have taken the advice very well, I think you'll be fine.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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