~ archived since 2018 ~

Victim Puke: Negative Space

March 7, 2017

TL;DR: Massive victim puke. My wife isn't attracted to me and never was.

Everybody gets one of these, right?

There's a common optical illusion - I'm sure you've seen it - where the negative space between two faces, looking at one another, creates the image of a vase.

In many ways, that's what my marriage has been like. I saw a marriage - a beautiful woman, a loving husband, a caring relationship - but what I was looking at wasn't there.

I was seeing the negative space - the space between us on the couch, as she sat as far away as possible, head down, scrolling Facebook. The space between us in bed, as she rolled over to the farthest possible point. The space between us when I went in for a hug or a kiss, and she looked away, rolled her eyes, shrugged.

I came to a sudden, shocking realization the other night. Originally, I came to MRP to save my marriage - to improve my sex life after a dry spell of 1.5 years. I wanted nothing more than to re-connect with my wife, the woman I loved more than anything - to love and feel loved by her. I would've done anything to get there.

So I worked out, dieted, dressed up, worked on my frame...all the while, realizing that I was hiding a covert contract: If I do all these things, and become more attractive, my wife will have sex with me. My wife will love me.

That brings us to now.

We've had sex exactly three times since I started coming to MRP. All of those occurred after massive, blow-up fights - mostly about me, and my self improvement. I go to the gym too much, I don't get all the dishes done before I leave for work anymore, etc, etc....little things, inconsequential things.

After each of those fights, we ended up having sex - almost as her way of apologizing. It was good, passionate, loving. After each time, I felt like a million dollars - it's working! I'm becoming more attractive, and she's responding!

Then, the day after one of our fights, my wife mentioned she had a coupon for an online sex toy shop.

Incredible! Our bedroom, dead for so long, was alive! She was becoming more adventurous, more interested in me. We giggled and nervously shopped. It was fun, exciting, like being teenagers again.

We got the box a week later and went through what we'd bought - a dildo, a vibrator, some goofy sex-dice game. But she wasn't feeling sexy that night, so the box went on a shelf and we went to bed.

That was over a month ago. Since then, I've bee trying to flirt, to initiate, etc - always, to get turned down. No problem, I'd think. I'm not there yet, but we're improving. If I just get more attractive, if I just get some more muscles, if I just improve my frame...

Last night, while we were hanging out on the couch after a great day with the family, I leaned over. "Hey - you know what would be fun? We should try out those sex toys tonight! We haven't used them yet!"

My wife rolled her eyes and shrugged her shoulders: "Absolutely not, ugh," her body language read.

And then she said:

"Well, I've used them."

I froze. She must've seen it on my face, because I think she immediately regretted saying it.

"You did?.....When?"

"Oh, well...I didn't write it down, or anything. I don't know."

I returned to folding my laundry.

My mind was racing. When could it have been? During the day? But the kids are always here, and they haven't been napping great, and she's been so stressed out about it....At night? Probably not with me in the room, she's too self conscious for that.

Then it hit me: Once a week, I go to the gym at night, after putting the kids down. That's when.

I went upstairs, ostensibly to put my laundry away.

When I got up there, I lay down on the bed and started hyperventilating. I put my hands over my eyes. I was afraid I would start crying - no woman likes a crying man, MRP said in my head - but I didn't. I just couldn't control my breathing. It felt like my heart would jump out of my chest.

Here is why:

  • Our whole marriage, she's told me that I wasn't the problem, it was that she just wasn't feeling sexual. The kids, the pregnancy - she just didn't want to have sex, with anyone.

But she did. She did feel those things. She was horny enough to get herself off, but she felt no need to involve me. Even knowing how important it was to me.

  • I was away at the gym, getting myself in better shape so I could be more attractive. I left, she got off....and then I got home, and she didn't say anything. If I initiated, I got rejected. Completely oblivious. I'd been working my ass off to save our marriage, and she felt absolutely no need to do anything on her end. And she never would.

  • She had gotten me excited, thinking we were broadening our sex life and having fun together...but the whole time, I had been shopping for my own replacement. She wanted something that could get her off while she lay there imagining someone other than me.

I was nowhere in this scenario. A non-factor. Like I'd been our whole relationship.


  • I asked her our multiple times, and got rejected....

  • Then, after dating for about a year, she broke up with me. "I don't want to fuck you," she told me....

  • It took me a whole year to get over her - and when I finally did, we got back together...

  • Sex declined very steadily - and even before the kids, we were maybe having sex 1-2x a month....

She'd been telling me the whole time.

She wasn't attracted to me, and never would be. I am not a sexual being to her. I am expected to provide - support her, support the kids, give her everything, sacrifice everything - and she doesn't have to give anything in return.

I had to leave the house. I made up the lamest excuse imaginable and got in the car. I got maybe half a mile before I started screaming - so many years of guilt, frustration, humiliation, shame. So many years of feeling like I wasn't enough. So many years of rejection from the person closest to me. So much work, so much suffering.

All for someone who never loved me, and never would.

I've never felt so betrayed in my whole life. I saw it - My whole marriage, laid out before me, a diagram.

"If someone took video of us," I said out loud, "and cut out the sound...you'd never be able to tell we were married."

And right then - right then - is when I decided to get a divorce.

I no longer want to save my marriage. My marriage can't be saved.

Right now, all I care about is ensuring I get to see my kids, and that they have a safe and easy transition. That they feel loved and protected and secure.

And that I release, slowly, the anger and shame that's been eating me alive for years now.

When that's gone, I'll have a huge gap in my chest - the negative space where I stored all my fears.

Maybe something else can go there, one day.

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Post Information
Title Victim Puke: Negative Space
Author resolutions316
Upvotes 29
Comments 60
Date March 7, 2017 9:06 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/askMRP
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/askMRP/victim-puke-negative-space.206444
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5y3g0d/victim_puke_negative_space/
Red Pill terms in post

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So I worked out, dieted, dressed up, worked on my frame...all the while, realizing that I was hiding a covert contract: If I do all these things, and become more attractive, my wife will have sex with me. My wife will love me.

Yes you had a covert contract. I think you still have it.

Once you give up blaming her, you can get better.

Once you give up on doing things that change her behavior, you can get better.

Once you give up on the marriage, you can get better.

That doesn't mean you are getting a divorce.

It just means that you are going to get better.

Get better.

You just got started.

[–]ford_contourRed Beret11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for this. This kind of response is what makes this community great:

It's cool to see empathy given without any compromise of our expectations that OP will still own his shit.

Also just good advice.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My best advice is about the dragons still I battle.

[–]WesternhagenWinner20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you rage-quit the game before you conquer the first boss monster, you'll just have to fight it again after you respawn.

[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Congratulations, you're the winner.

[–]2ndalRed Beret10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Very well written and insightful.

Here's the thing though. You're not ready for a divorce. You may have given up on your marriage, but you've not improved nearly enough to be someone who others find attractive. Sure, you could land some other chicks, but they're not going to be the quality that you're truly searching for because you're not that type of man that demands the love and attraction that you seek from a woman. If you were, you'd have it. But you don't. Yet.

Think of your marriage as your training ground. You get better, stronger, sexier, smarter, more centered, calmer, grounded. Your wife? Who knows. It sounds unlikely that she'll ever find you attractive, but when that isn't your goal, who cares?

If she doesn't, then at some point you'll find yourself ready for divorce, knowing deep down that you truly have what it takes to attract the type of relationship you're capable of being in. But if you give up now, you'll lose the one thing you have going for: a consistent stone with which to sharpen yourself against. And this isn't just any stone. It's the hardest, most callous, rocky stone you can find. What better scenario to challenge yourself with?

In some time you'll come away being the man who gets the type of love and affection that he deserves. Will that be with your current wife? Who knows. But you'll be ready to receive it regardless.

Can you look in the mirror and tell yourself honestly that you're ready? If not, get to work.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy Link


[respectful silence]

Time to move forward.

[–]resolutions316[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I laughed out loud at [respectful silence], and that ain't nothing

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

and that ain't nothing

What are you referring to?

[–]resolutions316[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I just meant getting me to laugh in the mood I was in was no small feat.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

getting me to laugh in the mood I was in

Great self diagnosis. Now find ways to move past it; more easily and more quickly each time. Best

[–]screechhaterRed Beret10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Four months into your MAP and your ready to quit.

1- dread

2- she has little respect for you. This started a long time ago and you let it slide. If she did, she never would have hinted about the sex toys use.

3- the rule of thumb is 1 month to 1 year LTR. Give it its due

4- you are in her frame and she pulls your strings and you dance

5- iDGAF. Get there. Here is a tip from me- I have had some real bad things done to me and it seems like my SO's rejections have been worse because we are "married" Well I compare that feeling to say a good ass beating. Huh, doesn't compare. Now I just laugh at her.

My advice is read all you can. Kill your ego and covert contracts Start dread today. Do your fair share around the house and disappear. Have a good time without her.

Good luck

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Chill out. You're still too new. Still too in your wife's frame. Her sex life with in-adamant objects defines your feelings.

Stop giving a fuck. Work on you for a while to the point where you could fuck any woman you wanted. Then get a divorce.

Maybe your wife comes around along the way. If she does and things get better, then at a minimum consider it a win for the kids - assuming she's a decent mom and you like seeing them every night. If not, end it...but 4 months isn't enough time to decide all this.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

She was horny enough to get herself off, but she felt no need to involve me.

I can tell you, I know exactly how you feel. Here's my first post to MRP.

It's funny because it's so stupid... I mean, I'd been jerking off for a long time, so why shouldn't she? And to this day, I'm 98% certain she never cheated on me, so I can't explain why I was so devastated. And yet, I bawled like a baby.

Except that was the covert contracts, the validation, and oneitis -- and those were all in my head. But it was also the disrespect, and that was where I drew the line. At that point, I realized that I needed to get out of her frame. She could do whatever she wanted to get off, with or without me, but my story would be written around what I wanted or didn't want.

In the last year, I'd like to think things have turned around. We have sex as often as I want, and while she's still mostly reactive, it's certainly not starfish. We still use the toys fairly often, and I'd like to think that she gets off more than half the time, but her orgasm is her business. I'm out of town this week, and she's ovulating, so who knows.

But I'm in a much better place. I am still working on abundance mentality, but my self-worth is no longer wrapped up in how often I get my dick wet, whether she came, or if she needs some private time occasionally. She adds value to my life, and I provide the leadership that our marriage and family was lacking. If that changes, or if I find that she's disrespecting me in other ways, then I can and will enforce the boundaries I laid out a year ago.

[–]HoveyC0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

"But her orgasm is her business"

Ok. Is that really what you want in your marriage? She takes care of herself. I take care of myself. Sometimes those goals intersect, but not necessarily. Sexuality is not something we necessarily direct towards each other.

Not trying to be a dick here. I struggle with this in my marriage

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Is that really what you want in your marriage?

I wanted to stop dipping my toe in the water to see if she was in the mood tonight. I wanted to have sex without asking whether this was okay, or if that would be better. I wanted to stop tracking days of ovulation, counting attempts vs successes, orgasms vs "we can still cuddle".

As it turns out, that's what she wanted too.

Let's talk food.

I love eating out, trying different restaurants in the area, and finding a new favorite item on the menu. There's a great barbecue dive downtown, a lively mexican place, a good chain italian restaurant, and so on, and about once a week we go out with friends. Sometimes it's a hit, sometimes the food is off, but the point of going out to eat with someone isn't just to fill your belly. It's to share the experience, to laugh and try new things, and let everyone relax without slaving in the kitchen or worrying about clearing the table. The best nights are the ones where the time slips away because nobody is checking their watches.

And the entire time, you don't stop to wonder if everyone got enough to eat, or maybe that someone's dish was a bit overcooked, because the food was just part of the mechanics -- a reason to meet up and spent time together, instead of the core of the exercise. Sure, you hope everyone leaves with a full belly, but if they don't, it's probably because they were having too much fun otherwise. I admit that just tonight, I got back from the restaurant and was still feeling a bit peckish even though it was a lovely evening all around (and my steak was very good).

My point is, the biology aspect is straightforward, but sex is more than just rubbing certain parts together. If it was, there'd be no reason not to just stay in and masturbate. And what i realized was that, in addition to the validation that I expected from her, I was really missing the intimacy. You know, the coy glances you exchange when you know she's in the mood, the giggles after sweaty bodies make fart noises, or the slow relaxed touching while you lay in the afterglow. And those things come when you are together in the moment, and not worried about who's picking up the check or whether the bills will be split evenly.

So, yeah, I still look for new things in the bedroom that I think will please her. MMSLP has been great. But at the same time, pleasing her is not my primary focus -- just being together is. She expects me to lead, because her passion is more reactive. But more importantly, she's a big girl... she can tell me if something doesn't feel good, if she'd rather switch positions or her jaw is getting tired. And I don't take it personally either. I gave up asking if she came, or worrying if she might visit Mr Hitachi on the side -- it doesn't matter as much as the fact that she reciprocates my desire, wants to be a good wife and mother, and adds value to my life.

And so that's why I have extra sympathy for the OP, because its not clear that his wife actually respects him as more than a paycheck. At the least, I knew that my wife was genuinely attracted to me at one point, but that I'd become a lazy fat fuck coasting through my 40s, and her apathy was just a reflection of mine. I was able to shake myself out of the funk, and my life has gotten much better since MRP.

But his journey has to be the same as mine. It needs to start with his body and in his head, killing off the remaining covert contracts, taking her down from that pedestal, and stop watching the scoreboard.

[–]rocknrollchuck0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

GREAT breakdown!

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is probably the best breakdown of my "vision" for our sex life that I've seen...exactly what I've tried to put into words elsewhere. Thanks for writing this.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok. Is that really what you want in your marriage? She takes care of herself. I take care of myself. Sometimes those goals intersect, but not necessarily. Sexuality is not something we necessarily direct towards each other.

Yes. Throw that entire mentality to co-habitation and you won't have the fucking mountain of covert contracts to bullshit yourself with. My goal is that we augment each other, not that we simply supplement our shortcomings.

[–]WesternhagenWinner0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's my first post to MRP.

Very powerful post BTW!

[–]weakandsensitive6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Didn't you score yourself 18 today? That's why your metric is a joke. You built a tool to augment your covert contract and bullshit yourself further with delusions of grandeur - and the worst part is you have other people using it.

Also - women don't find needy men with massive covert contracts unattractive? Surprise surprise. Whodathunkit? Surely not everyone over at MRP who's been saying this shit since day numero uno.

Do you have immediate fallback options? Can you go to the bar and pick up a barfly who's superior to replace your wife right now? I bet you can't. I bet you the notion of communicating non-neediness or a "I am the prize" mentality didn't even cross your path. I bet you haven't even started demonstrating the fact that you believe you actually are worth a damn -- nah, your whole goal was to make someone love you, to manipulate another person's emotion, to control someone else's behaviors. It's pathetic. And you think that other person is too stupid to not see through your transparent bullshit.

I know you're looking for empathy, but like I said to some other guy, why are you surprised? You reap what you sow faggot.

[–]TaistoKarhu6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just wanted to tip my hat at this post, I'm in a somewhat same situation and this and the replies here are gold.

I want to add what I think that as we know it will take a lot more to really see what the end result will be and you have now come to another huge obstacle that you need to pass if you want that this relationship will not happen to you again in the future.

As we know, if your MAP is a covert for turning the relationship around it won't work. For me, any hope of bettering the relationship is counter productive towards improving since when times are momentarily good I'll quickly find myself working for bread crumbs and seeking validation, staying in her frame although I tell myself different. So maybe now you can really move forwards and really start the MAP with the right mindset.

And most of all I can relate to the feeling that your probably thinking 'she isn't worth it' and she isn't, but you are. If you drop your sparring partner for shadowboxing, you will not become a fighter.

[–]sh0ckley1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you drop your sparring partner for shadowboxing, you will not become a fighter.

This is some MRP gold right here. +1

[–]The_LitzRed Beret5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel your pain brother, I've had a very similar experience. A few years ago I bought my wife a small vibrator as a valentines gift. Covert contract way of thinking that maybe I can get her to relax a bit when it is playtime. She just looked at the vibrator with disdain and disgust when I gave it to her. I've never seen it since. But she did let it slip out once that it is 'close by' ie. it has seen some action.

Basically you are feeling betrayed and your marriage is just a contract for you to provide resources.

The bad news is your analysis is spot on. She doesn't desire you. It is a huge hit to the ego, and now your ego is driving the bus, which is always a bad idea because our ego's are pretty shit decision makers.

Further bad news, you are not ready to quit. I am not telling you to divorce or not to divorce, makes no difference to me, but this behavior will repeat itself in your next relationship.

The good news, you realised you had a covert contract. If I improve she will like me. Still her frame, still her rules.

Further good news. You are already on a path of self improvement. But it is going to take time. I am in the same boat as you, my wife never had the tingles for me, I started the relationship as Fix-it Felix betabob provider. Can it be turned around? Doesn't matter, because in the process you are bettering yourself for yourself, regardless of your current relationship.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The 12 levels of dread. They say take about at least a month or so on each. And MRP's rule is to take about a month or so per year you're married to see change. But if you look at the field reports, you'll see that often it takes longer than that. I'll quote the sign in my gym again:

It takes 4 weeks to start to notice results

It takes 4 more for those results to start to show to the world

It takes 4 more for others to start to notice those results.

It's the same principle, but even longer with MRP. As you progress through the levels, you are slowly bettering yourself and making a happy life regardless of whether your wife follows or not. And at the end...it's almost as if divorce us simply a formality...since you're life is without her anyway...may as well do some paperwork.


Do you believe that's how you got to where you are? Because I'll tell you what I see. I see a guy who's still taking the hard hits. You are getting the concepts, but the blows still land, and they still hurt. And because of that those blows can move you to take big leaps in attitude toward what should be done next. What I see is you flipping a switch to divorce, rather than a slow and matter of fact route to its inevitability. And that alone makes me think you're skipping steps, you've not improved enough.


That said: I'm not saying don't do it, I'm not saying you won't have a 110% better life after if you choose to keep improving yourself after you do. What I'm saying is I don't see this as a lost cause yet. End of the day, not my call. It's yours.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't care if you think you want to get divorced or not. Read what /u/sexyshoulderdevil and /u/weakandsensitive have said here. The real issue at hand is frame. Specifically how you continually operate in her frame.

Your wife is sitting up on high on this massive fucking pedestal. You were a former devotee of the pussy pedestal goddess and now you are having a crisis of faith because the goddess hath not provided for you. Well she was a false idol.

Let me tell you what will happen. You're a beta bux. Not an insult, just facts. You will grow distant from your wife, begin the process of divorce, and she will sense the discord. If you put divorce papers in front of her she will revert to her typical behavior to ensure her beta bux gets in-line:

Sex declined very steadily - and even before the kids, we were maybe having sex 1-2x a month....

I guarantee if you serve her she will start fucking you again, of course it wont be genuine, but just compliance. Follow the /u/BluepillProfessor 's book advice. Get to a point where you are master of frame, so that you can see her behavior for what it is. Someday it's possible she may genuinely be attracted to you, but until you can judge her adequately for her actions, you may be blinded by her vagina. I always preach beware the sunk cost fallacy, in this case your marriage is at 0 value, but price of exit might set you back, currently there's no carrying cost to improve yourself until you get to the dread step of "Fuck you or fuck me"

[–]BobbyPeru5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

We've had sex exactly three times since I started coming to MRP. All of those occurred after massive, blow-up fights - mostly about me.

You talk about how you've worked on your frame, but this sentence hear clearly shows that your frame sucks. If you had any frame, you wouldn't be having a blowout fight about those topics. Four months is just getting your toes wet.

I believe you are stuck in the anger phase right now.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Anger phase- ? " Butt Hurt. I do have my needs..." phase.

If he was angry, the papers would have been served.

Course, he is so deep in her frame, she rattled his ass on the sex toys comment

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Agree. Getting kicked in the ego is the only thing that hurts worse than getting kicked in the balls.

[–]drty_prRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's why this community is so powerful. Humans naturally surround themselves with people who don't rock their boat. Very few, actually none, of my friends will call me out on my bullshit. There is something so liberating about having someone tell you exactly where you fucked up. I love that chapter in TWOTSM where he says every man should have a group of friends where they talk to each other in this way.

[–]BobbyPeru1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If he was angry, the papers would have been served.

How many guys do we see coming in here spouting about how they are going to divorce their wives, and then they take the zero action. Anger doesn't guarantee action.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Anger doesn't guarantee action. courage.

ftfy, because really self pity is an action.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much what I meant within the context

[–]J_Incognito2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that I'm already better than I ever was.

This is the problem. You've never left the covert contract. You still think hitting the gym, changing your clothes, social groups, upping your career = more sex. It may, but not directly. It's more like: Gym, etc. > confidence & winning life > sex.

Admittedly your history is much worse than others here (multiple rejections, dumped so she could fuck more attractive guys), but you made your bed. 4 months is not enough time to give the MRP it's due.

I returned to folding my laundry.

NO, NO, NO. You have to lead her. Tonight in bed, turn off the tv, get close to her, and tell her to tell you how it happened, how it felt, and how it made her feel to be a sexy woman.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well the good news is she has a sex drive!

The bad news is you are ready to throw in the towel after 4 months of MRP.

Have you tried Dread? Have you found a purpose that doesn't involve her?

[–]All_Ads_Deceive4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guarantee you haven't improved much in four months. Why don't you hit the gym hard for 2 years and grow some balls. You currently have a vagina inside your skull, it will take way more time to developed a masculine brain.

Who cares if you began as beta bitch friend zone turned beta bucks. All that matters is who you will be in the future. Currently you're a beta phaggot who's in slightly better shape.

Don't talk divorce until you're a man worth respecting who women actuall want to fuck. Why are you surprised your wife would rather fuck an artificial dick than yours? I don't see anywhere about how other women are throwing their pussies at you.

[–]innominating3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure why you got so butthurt about her masterbating. I'm sure you have 1000 times since you've been married, and you still love her. Of course she doesn't love you the way you love her, you know that. If you've done any reading.

If you want to have more sex with her, you need to show her you aren't insecure about her being sexual alone. Instead, you get butthurt, leave the house, make up your mind you want a divorce, and if she catches a hint of it, slut shame will wash over her.

She is a reflection of you, my man. You have some sexual shame, insecurities, neediness, covert contracts, and fear of loss (jealousy) you have to work on. You are jealous of sex toys, you are jealous of her thinking about someone else, you are jealous with her being a sexual being.

Divorce her if you want, but figure that shit out, or you'll end up right back in this spot. Alternatively, stop giving a fuck about her and magically she'll be on your dick and you can use that dildo to DP her.

[–]nantucketghost2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The general rule of thumb is one month of MRP for every year of beta pussiness in your relationship. During this time, focus on improving like it's your job. Divorce at then end if no improvement on her end.

But you have to be leading.

Where are you on dread? Levels 1-5 are simultaneous. You should be moving up to 6 if you haven't already.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus, this is brutal to read.

You can't use red pill ideals to live in a blue pill fantasy. Stop fantasizing about your martyrdom by the way, it's super unattractive. I am surprised you stumbled accidentally upon emotional engagement DEVI and got sex, yet still ignored it when it was working, chalking it up to apologies... Though, you've had your head so far up her ass, I'm surprised she isn't coming from your anal pleasure daily.

Girls don't feel bad for anything but shame and getting caught, you're not that important.

Either way, when you're done feeling sorry for yourself, if you aren't dangling by the ceiling with a rope, you can get to work. The days of jerking yourself off with 'alpha' are over.

Your mental models are fucked up, you're creating an Ego, attached to this 'woe is me' bullshit, and you're sprinkling alpha on your life. I swear, it's like you went throuhg every post I've ever blogged about, and done the exact oppositte. You think too much, act too little, you're afraid of everything, and you framed your life around being a whipping boy, so you self sabotage everything you do to fit that mold.

I'd link this to the fight club bit about leaving a scar, and being free to do anything, but we've had enough poetry for one day ITT

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are still likely looking for negative space. You are raging into the void.

The dude on the bed, crying.. you are still there. Its ok

Get up. And be a dad, and be the man you want to be. Go talk to a lawyer if you are ready. But for gods sake don't burn down the house quite yet.

What would happen if tomorrow she started sucking your dick every day?

Would you say "Yea! Finally , she wants me for me?"

or would you be forever suspicious of how things went down, and how she only wanted you when you actually said you are leaving??

Women communicate covertly. I encourage you to do the same... except let her draw her own conclusions. Go the the gym. Go to work. Pay the household bills. Build your life. The rest...

she is just "this one girl"

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

How long were you into your MAP before you threw in the towel? What was your wife's reaction when you told her you were filing for divorce?

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Haven't told her yet - this happened yesterday.

As for the MAP, I'm four months in. Problem is that I'm already better than I was when we first met.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Ever think that obviously that's not good enough?

Seems like a pretty huge covert contract, "I'm better than I ever was, therefore she should want me now".

[–]resolutions316[S] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Good enough for what?

If it's the case that the supposition "if I improve myself, therefore she'll want me" is untrue, then that process itself is flawed. That was my point above.

Improvement for someone else is pointless. There was no root attraction there to begin with.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Assuming she was never attracted to you in the first place, and you started at -2 on SMV, and over 4 months you've improved to a +3 SMV, is that enough of an improvement that you should be expecting any change in her or any woman's attraction level?

Using the above example, yes you're better than you've ever been, but is it any surprise she's still not attracted to you? Would you expect another woman to want to fuck you? My example is obviously extreme for illustrative purposes.

What I get from your puke is that you're still firmly in her frame, still firmly in the anger phase, and throwing a temper tantrum because your 4 months of working on your MAP haven't given you the results you feel you deserve.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You obviously know your wife better than some strangers on the internet, but I would put money on the fact that you could get your wife to find you attractive and desire you...over time. The rule of thumb for MRP is to give your relationship 1 month for every year of marriage/committment. If you're only 4 months into your MAP, then your marriage should not be older than 4 years.

You say you have improved yourself, but in what ways exactly? You can lift like a mad man, get a six pack, and be cut up like a julienne salad but your wife will not desire you if she still sees you as a beta. If you are not properly passing shit tests, demonstrating true OI and IDGAF, and incorporating some dread, then the lifting doesn't add much value (based on my personal experience).

I find the teachings of MRP to be like the legs of a chair. If you don't follow all of the lessons and instead just pick and choose your favorite, the system will not work.

But with that said, if you are seriously going through with the divorce, throw some hellfire at her. Create a tinder account and be obvious about it, leave the page open or something for her to see. When she asks you why you're on tinder say "if you're using sex toys without me, I don't see why I can't either."

Take dread up to level 99, but I doubt you have the balls.

[–]drty_prRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Take dread up to level 99

Correct me of I'm wrong, but isn't 99 fucking your MIL in front of your wife, while your FIL is crying in the corner?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Improvement for someone else is pointless.

I endorse this message.

There was no root attraction there to begin with

How would you know? You have been living in the La La Land of covert contracts so long, you might be confused. Reassess this when you acquire some mental clarity.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm already better than I was when we first met.

Maybe body-wise ... but frame-wise? That's usually both harder, and more important.

Another option is to get the divorce papers, hold a Main Event and lay out your nonnegotiable expectations, and tell her to meet them or sign, her choice. /u/BluepillProfessor says that you can't negotiate attraction but you can sometimes command it; the fact that the three times she fucked you came exactly when you did so suggests this alternate interpretation that she can desire you if you develop the frame to lead.

[–]burningBluePills1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Question. Why should your wife want to have sex with you?

Your marriage may not be saved but you certainly can start working on yourself. Clearly there's a lot to be worked on.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I've been working on myself consistently since finding this place.

The problem is that I'm already better than I ever was. If it isn't working now, there is no "past self" I can reclaim where she was attracted to me.

There's no there, there.

[–]SepeanRed Beret2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You don't have to reclaim anything. You're building a real, masculine identity for the first time. Or you would be if you weren't so butthurt that you were beta bucks,

[–]resolutions316[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I am, in fact, butt hurt. Yes.

I was operating under the assumption that I had a relationship to save. I don't. That sucks and I'm not afraid to admit that it hurts.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Drop the butt hurt. Continue working on yourself and your MAP. Work on actually being someone enjoyable to be around. Stop hyperventilating because your wife is getting herself off without you. Find your chill and maybe she'd invite you to join if you didn't sound so desperate for her validation.

[–]SepeanRed Beret5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not afraid to admit that it hurts.

Don't give me this shit. Your pain is not a valid excuse for you acting like a pussy.

I'm not going to comment on the courage in admitting you're hurt, but if you want respect for hurting, take it like a man. Deal with it, soldier on, fix the problem.

I was operating under the assumption that I had a relationship to save. I don't.

The rest of us see a guy who sucked, got exactly as little love as he deserved, and now that he's beginning to improve and seeing some signs of progress, he's flaking out.

But you, your ego is kicking into self protection mode and you're making this arbitrary rule that "if she never loved me I'm splitting". There might be good reasons to leave but that she didn't love you as a beta is not one of them. No woman will do that. You're getting some insights into female psychology and your past quality as a man, and that's not fun. But don't blame it on your relationship, how little there was is just a reflection of your low SMV.

You're so fucking stuck in your ridiculous covert contracts. "While I'm lifting for her she's using sex toys without me". Well boohoo, there's no rule that you doing something for her means she has to do something for you. She doesn't give a fuck that you're lifting or trying. All she cares about is how you look, how strong your frame is, how high your SMV is.

Bottom line is, you're getting somewhere. You're beginning to get sex. Then she tests your frame with some sex toys, and you fold.

Get this through your head: she will try to hurt you, belittle you, whatever seems like it will crack your frame, she'll do it. And when she finds a flaw in your frame, she'll keep on hitting it just there. On the other hand, if your frame holds up to her probing, she'll become more and more attracted to you and eventually respectful and submissive.

If you don't internalize that and learn to pass shit tests and hold frame even when a women sticks you were it hurts, your next relationship will suck too.

Lift and lead, bro.

[–]gizmozed0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Get this through your head: she will try to hurt you, belittle you, whatever seems like it will crack your frame, she'll do it.

My question for you is why would anyone bother going through all that? Why would you be treated like shit for an indefinite period of time by someone who has already put you in the beta bux lockbox, when you could start over with someone new and have a proper relationship in a matter of months?

I'm surprised that most posters on this thread thing that there is a high likelihood that if the OP will just suck it up and do everything right for a couple years this woman will fall in line. I doubt it.

[–]SepeanRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem is not her, it's him. With his lack of frame this story will repeat itself with the next girl. It's more important that he mans up than replacing her.

And it can be done. My wife was worse than his and she's a sweet, kinky girl now.

[–]drty_prRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Think of 5 women in your life who you desire to stick your dick in. Honestly how many would let you?

[–]MisfitPL91 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I Like the Negative Space comparison - basically my relationship, however I left it too late to fix with the wife ( yes -I LEFT IT TO LATE - RP has taught me its my fault ). Funnily enough I discovered RP and MRP a few weeks back, and then joined gym on a Friday - she left on the Sunday.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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