I used to be about as beta as you can possibly be, and truthfully it's still a struggle not to relapse at times.

For some reason, I was just mulling over this thought today. I used to always think there was something sort of admirable about "asking the father first". I dunno, it seemed very... old-school?

Which when I think back, the only girl I ever thought was real "wife-material", I think the bigger issue would've been winning her mother over. Which would have been critical; girl was super close to her mother, and her mom was actually cool as shit (very no-nonsense, former CIA aparently). So in that position, "the mother's blessing" would've probably been more important than the father's.

But I guess when I step back and really look at those whole "ritual", it's kind of inherently submissive, isn't it? I mean, I'm someone who really does believe in showing respect towards your elders (until they do something to lose that respect). But if you were in a position of proposing, of saying "I want to make this girl mine, part of my tribe", it sort of seems like asking permission (which is a big Southern thing) is almost like saying "my wants and needs are irrelevant, whatever you says it best, boss!".

Or maybe that's missing the point?

Perhaps instead of asking for "permission", you can still show respect by saying "hey, I'm planning to propose to your daughter, and I'd like to ask for your blessing", giving them an opportunity to voice any objections, while at the same time, still establishing this is your choice?

I dunno. Like I said, I'm not in need of answers or anything, just kind of an idle musing I'd be interested in hearing you guys' thoughts. Assuming you even believe in "marriage" (and if not, hey cool, it's clearly not for everyone, and may not even be for me).