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For you guys who are deadset against marriage (which, I imagine, is the majority of the sub), did your parents have a bad marriage and, more generally, is there a history of bad marriages in your family?

October 9, 2014
3 upvotes

I ask this because I have seen all the arguments against marriage today and, other than the aspect of raising children, I agree that marriage is not a good deal for men these days. But I still want to get married someday, not only because it's expected in my family but also because we have stable marriages. Out of my all the relatives I know, which totals about 40 marriages, the only divorces have been:

My aunt: after 30 years of marriage with all their kids grown... she initiated it but did not divorce rape him to my knowledge (I don't think she really could have because she worked full time, plus she's not that kind of person)

Her daughter: who was (and is) a mentally ill alcoholic who didn't get married until she was in her mid 40s... the marriage ended a couple years later (with no kids obviously)... she was his second wife

My uncle but, while he may not have had all the blame, he was definitely a deadbeat who was not cut out for marriage or fatherhood so he is not an example of why a responsible, hard-working man shouldn't get married.

My half-cousin but he got remarried and has been happily married for 30 years

My cousin, who had married a black girl (we're white). Statistically interracial marriages are much more likely to fail so this was kind of predictable

His sister, who married another man and has been happily married for 25 years

Another cousin, but no kids and an amicable divorce

A second cousin but she is absolutely batshit. I don't know if her husband got screwed.

I also have a cousin who knocked up his gf at 20 about six years ago. They got married and have been close to divorce but they're making it work.

Oh and one of my aunts divorced her husband but he had become basically a vegetable in a car crash so I don't count this. She continued to take care of him.

So yeah, my family has a pretty good marriage track record. Not that there haven't been rough patches (for example, all four of the marriages in my immediate family have come close to divorce (or, in my parents' case, as close as a devout Catholic couple can come)), but they've made it work. I've just counted all the marriages out of all the relatives I know, no matter how distant, and every divorce I've listed on here. From my count, the divorce to successful marriage ratio is less than 20% and none to my knowledge were divorce rape. So on an emotional level I just don't have the aversion to marriage that I see so often on the internet.

Also, what is your ethnic background? I think that matters. I come from a midwestern Catholic family on both sides. Dad German/Irish, mom French/Chippewa/English/Bohemian

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Post Information
Title For you guys who are deadset against marriage (which, I imagine, is the majority of the sub), did your parents have a bad marriage and, more generally, is there a history of bad marriages in your family?
Author awesomesalsa
Upvotes 3
Comments 37
Date October 9, 2014 4:09 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit /r/askTRP
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/for-you-guys-who-are-deadset-against-marriage.142709
https://theredarchive.com/post/142709
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/2irpk7/for_you_guys_who_are_deadset_against_marriage/
Red Pill terms in post
Comments

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

No one is my family has had a bad marriage nor have I personally experienced a bad marriage. What I have seen, however, is hypergamy in action and the lack of loyalty in women. Pretty hard to get married with this knowledge. I don't see this in a negative light, I simply accept the world for what it is.

You have to ask yourself, why do you want to get married?

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Like I said, I still have romantic notions about it that haven't been bursted by any collateral familial trauma. Plus, like I said, it's still a bit expected in my family. I'm the odd man out.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Applying TRP principles doesn't necessarily mean you can't get married, many married men on this subreddit apply TRP principles in their marriage. Many men on this forum who aren't married are against it simply because beyond providing them with children, there simply is nothing that a marriage can provide that a plate or LTR can't in their eyes. You may feel differently as you feel a marriage has romantic notions and that's okay. The red pill is simply understanding the realities of women and social relationships and using this knowledge to get what you want at the end of the day.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Applying TRP principles doesn't necessarily mean you can't get married,

I'm well aware of this. Rollo and Dalrock are two prominent examples of happily married RPers. The former doesn't even have children, to my knowledge. But obviously many, if not most, men on TRP are against marriage and this question was directed at them. My question was not "can a RP man get married" because that's not in question for me.

[–]Burner17011 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've actually considered posting this same question here. I'm happily married and both my wife and I have parents who are still happily married. I've wondered if redpillers are statistically skewed towards being boys from broken homes. Thanks for asking.

[–]jiveraffe 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

So feelz and familial expectations/pressure?

RPers tend to take a dim view of both.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

no shit

[–]Endorsed ContributorAFPJ2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Atheist / agnostic nordic here.

My parents, grand-parents and great grand-parents are all still living together happily. Five pairs of my surviving ancestors never married and have been together over 60 years, two married and are still together. I come from a worldview where marriage is completely unrelated to having a life-long partner and successful family. If you're religious, you marry, if not, you don't - it's that simple. Upon moving to this country I immediately vowed to protect my family heritage by never marrying a woman due to the retarded laws surrounding marriage in this country, but I will find a long-term partner & have a family. As for your take on marriage, that's all great and stuff but...

How much you think you can minimize the risk is irrelevant when the reward is zero.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

What country??

And ALL of your great-grandparents are alive? I find that very difficult to believe...

And as I've said, I think marriage is the best environment in which to raise children. Plus I've seen studies showing married men are happier and healthier than non-married

[–]Endorsed ContributorAFPJ1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What country??

Finland, but I've family in Denmark, Norway, Iceland & Holland.

I find that very difficult to believe...

I said 5 have been together 60yrs< (out of 8) - death of natural causes before 85 is unheard of in my family.

I've seen studies showing married men are happier and healthier than non-married

I am so sick of hearing this shit. Those studies are a lie, read about it here:

What is really remarkable about the combined findings of the 18 studies is that the designs were biased in favor of making marriage look good. At least 11 of the studies included only those people who got married and stayed married.

In the same type of analyses conducted for the 18 studies, participants’ reports of their life satisfaction were tracked starting before they married and continuing for years afterwards. Only those who got married and stayed married throughout the study were included in the analyses.

The results were the same as for the 18 studies. Participants reported an increase in life satisfaction around the year of the wedding (compared to before the wedding), but, as the authors noted, “this effect was short-lived.” Over time, the participants went back to feeling as satisfied or as unsatisfied as they were with their lives before they got married.

TL;DR? Even skimming only the minority of people who got married and stayed married, "the participants went back to feeling as satisfied or as unsatisfied as they were with their lives before they got married."

marriage is the best environment in which to raise children.

No, a household with two parents is the best for raising children.

Check out unmarried.org, family without marriage is a thing.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

thanks for your perspective

(Alt+11)

edit: how do I reddit

[–]KyfhoMyoba1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

[M50+]. Married at 26, divorced 4 yrs later. Parents married over 60 yrs, till death did them part. Never heard their voices raised against each other (against me, many times, lol!). Lots of physical affection to each other and to us kids. They had a wonderful marriage that I hold as being as close to ideal as is possible.

Given today's environment, I see no hope of replicating that kind of relationship, and I meet quite a few girls/women.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're in that middle generation whose parents were raised in an environment where marriage was something you worked at and whose kids are coming of age in an environment where marriage is like playing Russian roulette. 30 years ago marriage was riskier than it was for your parents but less risky than it is now (I think)

What changes have you seen in women and marriage during your own adulthood?

[–]redsuedeshoes251 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm married and have been for 13 years. My marriage like any other goes through its peaks and valleys. But overall I can say that I am happily married. That being said, I can certainly see why there are those who choose not to marry.

Through 3 generations in my family (i.e. Grandparents, parents + aunts and uncles, brother + cousins) only about 1/3 of marriages have been successful to this point. Only my marriage and my brother's marriage are currently active since my father and grandparents have passed away. This means that ALL of my aunts, uncles and cousins who've decided to marry have had their marriages end up in divorce. That's pretty sad.

Marriage is a huge undertaking to say the least. It's not something that one should enter into cavalierly. For men in particular, there is a significant chance that everything you've worked for can go up in smoke if things go sour. Even if things ultimately work out, certain compromises will have to be made on your part. Some freedoms will surely be lost. And the prospect of having the best years of your life ruined due to a cheating or lying spouse is always ever present.

Some guys just aren't willing to sacrifice all of this for marriage. I can't blame them. It's too much of a life changing responsibility to enter into if you're on the fence about it. No matter how many people tell you differently, you give up a lot of who you are when you get married. It happens so slowly that you wouldn't even notice it at first. But nevertheless, it happens.

Marriage isn't all bad of course and I don't want to make it sound that way. The biggest point I wanted to make with this post is that I don't consider red pill philosophy to be anti-marriage. Although many of those who post here are against marriage for themselves. It's only because when looking at the risk/reward setup of marriage in today's landscape it's hard to escape the realities of what can happen if things go south. There are multiple scenarios in which in honest man who does everything right in his marriage can still lose half of his shit if his wife decides on a whim to fuck someone else. Whether someone is pro or against marriage, it's a lot to consider when approaching the subject. Who is anyone to question another individual for not wanting to shoulder that kind of responsibility?

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

First of all let me thank you for the thoughtful response.

Who is anyone to question another individual for not wanting to shoulder that kind of responsibility?

I think anyone should feel free to question anyone else about any subject as long as the questioning is done with tact and an open mind.

I have just been very curious to know the backgrounds of the anti-marriage advocates I see around these here interwebs. I find it interesting that you have a successful marriage despite a family history of marriage failure. I certainly realize that my kins' relative success at marriage would not insulate me from unpleasant consequences should I marry the wrong woman. This is just a general sociological/psychological question I've had kicking around in my head for a while. It's similar to my desire to know the correlation between man-hating feminism and a poor relationship with one's father.

[–]redsuedeshoes250 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have just been very curious to know the backgrounds of the anti-marriage advocates I see around these here interwebs.

Well, you have to realize that in this section of the internet you're going to get a lot of anti-marriage sentiment. It's not born out of any hate toward women though. It's more so a response to the way the legal system has chosen to meddle with the institution of marriage itself.

As the red pill metaphor alludes to, people here choose to view the world in a pragmatic way instead of the Disney Presentation that has been previously shoved down our throats. So it's doubtful that anyone you interact with here is going to buy into the marriage that features 2.5 kids, a fluffy dog and a white picket fence. So it may seem like there is so much disdain toward marriage. But if you look at what's really going on. It's more about being realistic about what marriage is, rather than blindly jumping into the fantasy land that others like to project.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I harbor no delusions that marriage in the US in 2014 is a good deal for men.

I just see a lot of really extreme rhetoric.

"Never get married."

"There is no reason to get married."

etc

It all seems a bit extreme and dogmatic

[–]livingthedreamnow1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My parents marriages (dad 4, mom 2) were all crap. Mom has been happily cohabitated with a great guy for over 20 years now, unmarried. Nobody in my family before them, ever divorced. So there were plenty of "good examples" but they are all from an era where relationships were conducted in very traditional ways. Things are very different now.

Seeing my parents failed marriages actually gave me an advantage in that I had no grand illusion of what marriage is,, I expected rough patches, and was determined to never give up, no matter what, and I wouldn't have, no matter how bad it would have gotten. My exwife got a wild hair and decided she wanted something different, so she asked for a divorce. Otherwise I'd still be married, and actively convincing myself I'm happily married. A lot of times folks from in tact families take marriage for granted, or romanticize it based on all those successful marriages around them. Those folks tend to fold easily and quickly when the truths of marriage show themselves. This was the case with my long term SO's marriage. She had no realistic idea of what marriage took, and was woefully disappointed to find that it was hard, many times thankless, and for lack of a better term, dull.

Get married if you want, that's always a persons prerogative, but do yourself a favor and don't try to analyse it for some indication of your likelihood of success or failure at it. Analysis is based on facts and rationality,,, today, marriages balance precariously on the knife edge that is emotion. There is no hedging of bets, when it comes to emotions, they can change like the breeze,, for everybody.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

So nearly a quarter of all the marriages you are personally aware of have ended in divorce, and that's good by your standards?

I think you're projecting.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

a) I didn't talk about the marriages I'm personally aware of. I'm talking about my family

b) a quarter is much, much less than the average

c) to the best of my knowledge, I gave the context and circumstances of each divorce. As I've said, I really don't have a single relative whose marriage is a stark example of why a stand-up man shouldn't get married (with eyes wide open, of course)

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

a) That's what I meant

b) The flu is better than cancer, I still don't want the flu.

c) So why SHOULD a 'stand up man' get married? Marriage today is not what marriage as described in the bible was. It's a sinful mockery of it, so I don't see how you can use your religion to justify it. Outside of that, you have pressure from your parents (which is not a good reason to do anything) and this idea that marriage is some how the 'morally acceptable' course of action, which has been spoon fed to you by the media.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

a) you shouldn't have said it then

b) not sure this is the best analogy

c) I already said: I think marriage is the best environment to raise children, plus I've seen studies showing married men are happier and healthier than never-married men.

c2) I'm not religious but I can't deny my heritage

c3) Actually they don't pressure me at all. In fact really no one has ever said "why aren't you married yet, huh??" but then again I'm not that old yet. It's more of a subconscious thing.

c4) who said anything about the media spoonfeeding me notions of what's "morally acceptable."

Honestly I think you're projecting because it's like you're not even reading what I'm saying

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Go fuck yourself with a cactus.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What's with the hostility?

[–]Adolf_ghandi0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Grandparents still married. Parents still married. The only one that got divorced was an uncle with a batshit crazy wife. He did not loose anything due to a good prenup though.

marriage as it is is a useless status shift that only brings you trouble and expenses without any real advantage

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

So you disagree with the notion that marriage is the best context in which to raise children?

[–]Adolf_ghandi0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

How is it any different then making a normal relationship work for 20 years but without the legal bs that marriage involves?

Edit: labeling the same relationship with a different word does not improve the relationship.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

makes it harder to give up on the relationship when you hit a rough spot

[–]Adolf_ghandi0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's the point of avoiding marriage. It is like dread game. She is scared of you walking off when she does stupid shit. In a marriage it gets a lot easier for women to do stupid stuff and get away with it.

So the result is: having a healthy relationship and not being married keeps your woman better in line since the consequences are bigger.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

interesting theory

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Marriage can work out but you're looking at maybe 50/50 odds. If your main passion in life is not a woman then it doesn't make sense to get married

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

i want kids tho maing

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

same

[–]1kick60 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage in this environment is a turd that certain men are trying to pick up by the clean end.

My parents were married until just after I graduated college, and I understand their divorce. It wasn't brutal, but 10 years on, my mom is still bitter and places no blame on herself which pisses me off a bit. However my own parent's divorce really doesn't play into my decision not to marry. It's watching bitter custody battles and the fucked up shit my friends have had to go through (I'm 32 so I've seen a lot of divorces by now). Hell, I had one friend where she took his kid, and left the fucking country and refused to let him see the kid. But still wanted the American courts to grant her child support.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No actually my parents have had almost 30 years of a great loving marriage, but they are old school. My mother was always super straight edge, very kind and very obedient of m father. They are still madly in love.

I seriously doubt any woman from this era could match her with all the plastic bitches in the disposable society we live in today.

[–]slcjosh-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No. My parents have been married nearly 30 years. Their relationship is solid.

I am against the idea of traditional marriage because their is far more consequence involved for me as a man, and I haven't met a woman in over 8 years that I would even consider worthwhile to make my girlfriend let alone wife.

[–]awesomesalsa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Interesting. Thanks for your perspective

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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