User Challenge: GotToWatchMyBrand - You have half a day to tear down our theories. Fallacious personal attacks not allowed. Concept debate only.

February 16, 2013
5 upvotes

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Title User Challenge: GotToWatchMyBrand - You have half a day to tear down our theories. Fallacious personal attacks not allowed. Concept debate only.
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 5
Comments 17
Date February 16, 2013 5:16 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit /r/askTRP
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/user-challenge-gottowatchmybrand-you-have-half-a.174862
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/18n7ai/user_challenge_gottowatchmybrand_you_have_half_a/
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Comments

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Since this is over, I assume you don't care if we comment now. I actually learned a lot about how to battle a hamster/manster here. Thank you redpillschool. His/Her constant misdirection in the argument and your debunking was quite informative and educational to me. As a natural beta, in the past I have fallen for these tactics and get tied up in over explaining my side and defending something completely ancillary to the argument we were trying to have. Of course the word 'creepy' had to come out for example. By immediately bringing out the shame tactics, he actually just proves a major argument we make around here about feminism. And then hilariously HE actually implies that women are helpless objects and at that point he was done.

We will readily acknowledge that many red pill men are bitter while swallowing the red pill and he wouldn't continually try and find those examples, instead of trying to attack the main principles of the red pill. He never once tried to argue against evo-psych theories and how they readily explain what men and women find attractive.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I thought this would be a good exercise, I might make regular debates like this a new feature here.

[–]Lethargic-Lothario 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would love to see some debates. I -- and I sincerely hope I am not the only one here-- am while glad their exists a place tailored to the red pill concepts, feel that this should be about the debate; the discussion of what is fact, what is just misdirected anger and what the best course of action is.

I have heard the stories on this subreddit of broken marriages, unfair relationship balances and deceptive hypergamic attitude. And they are all very very true real scenarios. But the science, the approach, and the ultimate goal or goals I have personal contention with. And that may be due to a Christian upbringing. It may be due to a very deep respect for the Ghandi/Dr.King love of all people.

If their is feminism, their should be a place to call them on their demands for absolution of any guilt in the relationship of male and female, but I think the best answers are in being able to be open to discussion of what is right/correct/true.

[–]GotToWatchMyBrand 5 points6 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Brought it to home turf and against one person. Well you can start by stating your "theories".

The reality we were presented does not reflect the reality we observe. Parents, television, movies, religion continue to perpetuate a social narrative to entrap us in this false world we live.

Please, frequents of /r/TheRedPill tell me exactly what you are told and how it traps you.

take the red pill

Please, /r/TheRedPill tell me how stewing in bitterness that you can't get sex, reading misogynist blogs full of strawmen and deluded reality. Tell me, how does this constitute "waking up". Tell me how revolving your life around trying to trick people into having sex is useful and makes for healthy relationships (for both partners).

This sub seems to be dedicated to cheating yourself better (like taking a magic pill it would seem) but that will just leave you hollow and empty people who still have no idea how to socialize, bar a few party tricks.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Brought it to home turf and against one person

Just you and me. Everybody else can comment in another thread.

tell me exactly what you are told and how it traps you.

I thought you were here to debunk our theories. The ones you're so adamant are wrong.

Please,tell me how stewing in bitterness that you can't get sex, reading misogynist and blogs full of strawmen

... stewing in bitterness that you can't get sex, reading misogynist and blogs

Your words, not mine here.

and deluded reality.

I welcomed you to debate why you think our theories are deluded, not to fling mud.

Tell me, how does this constitute "waking up". Tell me how revolving your life around trying to trick people into having sex is useful and makes for healthy relationships (for both partners).

Show me where we are tricking anybody into having sex. I believe that would be rape. It's not a penis, it's a magic stick that you put in your vagina! Oh I tricked you!

This sub seems to be dedicated to cheating yourself better (like taking a magic pill it would seem) but that will just leave you hollow and empty people who still have no idea how to socialize, bar a few party tricks.

Let's leave value judgments aside. Why don't you try to really dismantle the actual theories here instead of barking the same trope?

[–]GotToWatchMyBrand 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

[Edit: you can start by stating your "theories"]

Please, frequents of /r/TheRedPill tell me exactly what you are told and how it traps you.

Please, /r/TheRedPill tell me how stewing in bitterness that you can't get sex, reading misogynist blogs full of strawmen and deluded reality. Tell me, how does this constitute "waking up". Tell me how revolving your life around trying to trick people into having sex is useful and makes for healthy relationships (for both partners).

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

See you're still failing to understand the core principles of a debate.

Somebody introduced you to the red pill, to which you responded negatively dismissing the entire sub, arguing that we're stewing in bitterness, tricking people into having sex, and misogynists.

I'm going to give you a small lesson in debate and logic. You are very bad at this.

You've made the assertions, and have done absolutely zero to defend your assertions.

You've made subjective value judgments, such as calling what we're doing "stewing in bitterness" which only holds context if your value judgement is the frame we're operating under. That's a logical fallacy. That's the straw man I'm talking about.

Of course you've linked to examples of why you think we're stewing in bitterness. But you have not understood whatsoever how presenting your conclusion as your argument doesn't work. I have not agreed to a presupposition that in fact what you're describing is bitter or stewing. How do you expect that argument to play out? It doesn't, because this moral direction you've taken is undefendible. I cannot argue how you feel about something. If you say you think chicken is gross and you won't eat it, I cannot argue that chicken is delicious!

Instead, I was hoping for an enlightened debate where you say, "hey you presented theory xyz, but it differs from results of experiment w. Or, you've interpreted such results this way, but couldn't it be said that this is caused by this instead?"

But instead you went the cheap ploy. You're betting it works. I bet you argue with your friends that way too. You've got literally no idea how much I've just run laps around you.

You've then colored our view as misogyny, and presented it as a just-so story. Roosh's view on the end game of feminism is misogyny? Well, I suppose you'll tell me your taste for beef is also absent and I should defend meat eaters everywhere!

What did I do here? This is called an analogy. I've compared your subjective commentary to that of food preference. In this context, you have not substantiated your claims, and instead jumped ahead to your value judgments as your argument. Fallacious, yes. But worse, terrible debate. This won't even be entertaining to readers because you haven't made a good point to defend.

The only bit I can really pull out of your un-argument was this:

trying to trick people into having sex[5]

If you believe tricking women into having sex is non-consensual, then that's rape. We do not advocate rape. If you believe that it is consensual, then are you denying women as agents? Are you saying no woman is capable of making the decision to have sex? Wouldn't that be rape? If I perform a literal magic trick and she's impressed enough to sleep with me, that's her prerogative isn't it? Or are women objects? Have I forced her to fuck me? Which is it? Women are agents and can make decisions? Or they're objects? Seems to me you've just committed another poor bout of logic.

But that's ok, I'm here to help.

You see, at the end of the day, every interaction we have with other people is a form of communication, to enable us to better get what we need. I ask the butcher to give me 2 chicken breasts (I'm sorry if you still hate chicken), and he gets it to me. Was this manipulation? I suppose, he did it under the duress of me offering him money. I know he needs to feed his children, so it's cruel of me to offer money when he's in that predicament.

Maximizing your attractiveness to women is nothing more than communicating what it is that women want to have sex with. It's not that difficult. Men body build to be more attractive. Men learn not to be pushovers to be more attractive. And men learn jokes to be more attractive. In other news, women wear pushup bras and wear makeup.

You've done absolutely nothing to even formulate an argument let alone destroy a percentage of our theories. The best you have is a poor grasp and a mischaracterization of our views, which you've attempted to argue with your value judgments and not sound reason. Congratulations you're terrible at this.

Next, you're going to ask me to present my unified theory if I think I'm so right. I'll stop you in your tracks. There is no unified theory. There's a lot to the red pill, and it's not all ironed out yet, and it may never be. But one thing's for sure, when a new idea or phenomenon comes around, we test and scrutinize it. Is this something that makes sense? Does it check out? Does it give us predictable results?

If you truly had an issue with something actually present in our sub, you'd show us where our reasoning went faulty. But, no, instead you've levied the tired "misogynist" trope. Bringing literally nothing to the debate table. Absolutely nothing. You've made a dubious claim that we are absolutely wrong, yet you are relying on me to explain our theory so you can substantiate your claim? This is debate 101.

[–]GotToWatchMyBrand -4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Defend my assertions against what, you fucking dumbass? You are sidestepping everything. See: wall of text telling me I am bad at debating.

I've asked you some fucking questions and you haven't answered any. But you commented on the "tricking girls into sex thing". Ok

Firstly you've asserted that it's either rape, or fair game. Well, to some extent, it is fair game.

These PUA books are a book of tricks, you could call them tips. What I asked you was how are these useful in creating a healthy relationship?

How is

A method for regulating your text response times so she won't perceive you as needy, desperate, or too available.

Anything but completely false? These tips, it's like you have a whole secret life dedicated to picking up girls for one night stands. It's fucking creepy is what it is.

My sound technique to get her phone number without even asking for it. It works because you never give her the opportunity to say "no"—it's a naturally implied "yes."

This one actually does sound rapey

The 5 magic words to say when you want to get inside her place that has never failed me. It's so "anti-game" that a girl would never suspect it's a tested technique.

sounds like the epitome of trust and caring

Four methods for breaking up with a girl you are bored of having sex with. One of the methods is my favorite because it allows you to get back in her pants just in case you change your mind in the future.

Here's a fucking technique mate. Tell her that for the past 5 weeks you've been using her like a piece of meat for your own satisfaction. That the damage caused to her trust is insignificant, because what she was actually dating was pretty much an algorithm for maximising sex, not a person.

I'm done with this stupid sub

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Defend my assertions against what, you fucking dumbass?

In order to make an argument, you present an assertion and then present evidence building a frame for your assertion. You do so by presenting each supposition, one at a time, and ensuring your opponent accepts your suppositions.

Once you've done that, you can arrive at your conclusion, which is logically inescapable. That is, if you actually argued. Which you didn't.

You are sidestepping everything.

You haven't presented an argument.

See: wall of text telling me I am bad at debating.

You didn't give me much other material to work with.

A method for regulating your text response times so she won't perceive you as needy, desperate, or too available. Anything but completely false?

If you respond eagerly and text multiple times in a row, it appears needy. Let me use an extreme example: If you met somebody and they started texting you 1,000 times without you having a chance to respond. You'd think something's up. Well, how about 500? Still extreme?

Ok, so we agree on the basic premise that there are ways to damage your chances via text.

There is no definitive guide to good texting, but the general rule of thumb is, don't be eager about it.

These tips, it's like you have a whole secret life dedicated to picking up girls for one night stands. It's fucking creepy is what it is.

You just can't stay away from making these emotional arguments! You've lead with your conclusion once again. Remember earlier when you were mad I was only critiquing your debate style? That's because you have no idea what you're doing.

You've added "one night stand" to try to conflate sex with a moral judgement. If a woman wants a one night stand, is she not allowed such freedom? Perhaps, then you shouldn't judge so.

And then you label it creepy. Because in a debate, that right there's some logic. How would one falsify the "creepy" label? Oh, no, I checked the rule book, it's decidedly not creepy! What you've got there is a bad argument, and you're trying to prop it up by assuming I will be dissuaded from debating because my behavior has been branded creepy. You've now tried to distract my argument by assuming I will now defend myself against the assailable creepy label. But I won't, because it's meaningless.

My sound technique to get her phone number without even asking for it. It works because you never give her the opportunity to say "no"—it's a naturally implied "yes." This one actually does sound rapey

At what point did the penis enter the vagina? Or, do you trivialize rape? Do you know there are real rape victims who wouldn't like your joke?

I was going to address the next two points you attempted to make, but I have nothing but the same criticism of those that I do of your first. You have failed miserably to bring forth a coherent argument debunking any red pill theories, and you quit!

You've attempted to even color my argument as misdirection because I actually used my argument to point out your original misdirection! The irony! No trick too low in your book, huh?

I was so looking forward to having a nice debate with somebody who has a different view. But what happened here is a travesty of logic and common sense.

You need to go back to school.

Start Here

[–]GotToWatchMyBrand -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh no some women dare to have sex of their own accord? Who do they think they are, men?

Tell me what the point of this shit is? Except to demonize a women who likes sex. What's wrong with having sex? Or is it just that you have none so "sub-human sexthing" should get less.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Tell her that for the past 5 weeks you've been using her like a piece of meat for your own satisfaction. That the damage caused to her trust is insignificant, because what she was actually dating was pretty much an algorithm for maximising sex, not a person."

whats wrong with woman who like sex? whats wrong with men who like sex?

[–]soapjackal 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There's nothing immoral to me about sex (TBF I'm not a super red pill advocate since the movement gets used by super right wing nut jobs and neo-nazis all the time) but you as a man have a choice between 2 twins. They were raised together, look the same, and lived together till they were 18, then they went to 2 different universities

  1. First girl gets laid occasionally and has a few steady boy friends
  2. Second girl has sex whenever she wants, with any guy she wants, and does this all the time.

Now go down the line 10 years.

The firs girl is going to attract better quality men. That's reality.

It may be politically incorrect, and somehow mysoginistic, but Dudes since the start of man have all said that sluts are generally unnattractive candidates for long term relationships.

Also without strong marriages built on trust, the kind slutty moms aren't libel to have, the children of her future family suffer for it.

So not immoral in a 'you're going to hell' sorta way, but all of our actions have consequences. Personally I'm an egalitarian pragmatist about it, the female gender has equal rights, but thier not the same as man and to expect to be able to be sleep around like men want to and be dominant like a man and still get a high quality mate is very silly.

I know I didn't bring any numbers to the table, but I'm sure marriage stats and std rates are public knowledge.

[–]GotToWatchMyBrand 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Delusional strawman leads to "get the pussy and discard".

What fucking healthy advice this place spouts. Yeah, both partners need to put in to a relationship, stop crying and then making shit up.

[–]GotToWatchMyBrand -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what you're waiting for. Would you like me to ask you again for your theories?

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I promise not to delete or censor any comments made by GotToWatchMyBrand. Where are you?

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Anybody who wishes to comment, please do so not in the main debate thread, make a new comment thread down here.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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