~ archived since 2018 ~
Popular
Other
bitcoin-optimist
[–]methylotroph135 points136 points137 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
My explaination as game theory Incel: Why can't I win the game? PUA: Here is how to win the game, buy my book to find out how! MGTOW: Yeah, I'm not playing this game. MRA: We must fix the game!
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 26 points27 points28 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
/end thread
That is perfect. :)
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You have me dying of laughter on the PUA part. I remember those days, oh Neil Strauss you...
[–]0x123d4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Whatever happened to Mystery? Still in the asylum?
[–]drogosan1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Last I heard from a few years ago, he lost custody of his kid(s), was paying child support, and moaned alot on Facebook. He's not in a good place.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Simping for a chick and her daughter.
[–]SirNecroKnight5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
^ This. Just stop at the MGTOW part though. :)
[–]LuvMeTendieLuvMeTrue4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good analogy! I've imagined it's like a soccer game (somehow that's how the image came to me) It's thots on the other team and men on the other. There are these chads who score well and there are these incels who don't. MGTOW don't play or spectate.
[–]Hypogamy75 points76 points77 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Shouldn't the graphic be spherical? Or is it just the manogrid?
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 44 points45 points46 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I vote manogrid!
[–]BitcoinBoffin13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
How about 'The Man-trix'. Also if you add some prisoner dilemma outcomes & you'll have a marriage of lifestyle strategy vs outcome.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
prisoner dilemma outcomes
https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/8k7g55/the_manosphere_in_a_single_graphic/dz5n7n1/ ← This guy gets it
[–]BitcoinBoffin0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Awesome stuff.
[–]Mojo_6669 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You want the graph to look like a woman? :|
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 65 points66 points67 points 5 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link
Updated 2018.05.18 Image
Now that a month has passed I feel I have a better sense of all the different sub-cultures and groups that exist in the manosphere manogrid. Talking with a friend who writes for a living I mentioned MGTOW and he immediately said, "You mean those incel guys like that unstable fanatic who attacked the people in Toronto?"
I took a deep breath and said, "No, incels are people who are involuntarily celibate. Some are more radicalized than others. MGTOW means exactly what it stands for -- men going their own way."
Chatting for about an hour he gave me the perspective from a university course he took on gender studies (yes yes I know it's mockable but he is a bit of a lady's man and was mainly using it to pick up chicks when we were both still in college). All in all we had a rather illuminating conversation and he was able to give me the scholarly perspective of the different waves of feminism and how they changed with time.
Once he filled me in on the broad sketches of his background he shared what he knew about the manosphere, or meninists as he called the entire movement, and how he saw it mainly as a focus on men's rights and the political implications of male rights. His tone was surprisingly sympathetic since his father lost custody of his half-sisters when he was just a child. By his description his father's first wife had no job, or even the prospects of a job, and failed to meet the court's imposed test to prove she was a capable parent, yet somehow she elicited the judge's sympathy and managed to get custody.
Somewhere at this point I told him I consider myself MGTOW and have no desire to get involved in any of the politics. Discussing the different factions by the end of the conversation we agreed there were basically four camps and they were organized along 2 different axes: activists and the degree of desire for female companionship.
Viewing it in this light it seems like we can look at Men's Rights Activists (MRAs), Involuntary Celibates (Incels), Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), and The Red Pill / Pick Up Artists (TRP/PUA) as existing in four distinct quadrants in relationship to these axises.
The MRAs are sick of feminism and the hysterical tone of media outlets advocating for women's issues when men are suffering as much, if not more, than women in many areas.
Incels want female companionship, but feel completely abandoned by society. This sense of betrayal has resulted in radicalized acts by the likes of Elliot Rodgers and Alek Minassian.
MGTOW guys like us just want to be left the hell alone and are happy to have a laugh here or there pointing out the shittiness of modern gender dynamics.
TRP/PUAs are just looking to get as much action as they can before the whole game blows up in everyone's faces.
After our conversation I quickly put this graphic together because I figure it might help explain the broad landscape of what's happening in the manogrid so we don't all get typecast as incels and further pigeonholed as a group of radicals that needs to be silenced.
We are the exact opposite of that. We are just guys who want to be left the fuck alone.
[–]DangZagnut36 points37 points38 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
That’s a nice write up. But you left out that girls have cooties.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 14 points15 points16 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Damn, I knew I missed something. :)
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The dirtiest place in the world, is a girl's mouth.
[–]zyk0s7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Instead of “activism”, maybe call the axis something like “social focus” or “desire for social change”. Incels aren’t really activists, as someone else pointed out. Also, PUAs are quite different from TRP, they don’t even belong in the picture. They are satisfied with superficial tricks, and don’t really dare to break from the narrative.
[–]drogosan0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, alot of PUAs are "blue-pilled" and in it for a LTR/marriage.
[–]Pellaeon_redpill0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
PUAs are quite different from TRP
Not really. TRP focuses more on looks, PUAs focus more on "game." They are both subsets of the same philosophy of "improve and pursue women."
[–]PoodankMcGee3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hmm all in all an interesting discussion Im not sure i would necessarily characterize incels as activist though.
The black pill usually implies that everything is hopeless and that it is impossible to change society, which will never be sympathetic to men's issues. So i dont think incels are sympathetic at all actually even though you get crazy shooters from time to time.
[–]ProdigalPlaneswalker2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
incels as activist
activism via white knighting
[–]trseeker4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well written.
[–]AlexiLaIas29 points30 points31 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
“The new right”. And thus why men’s rights and interests are marginalized. Because people will assume this is a group composed of angry right wingers rather than men of all political persuasion ready to call bs on this feminist discourse.
And if you believe the right wing stands for men’s rights let me just point you to: 1) no abortions 2) monogamous marriages the only form of sex that women will partake in, no fun, just sex in exchange for a lifetime burden 3) the man is expendable in war, the woman is the precious one (Giuliani) 4) women must be sheltered and cared for in a divorce/alimony/domestic dispute 5) police and military chads (the favored political upper class of the right) ready to be a hero for your beknighted woman and put you under arrest and 6) they were always willing to believe the false rape claims years and years ago provided it involved a man of color.
If you want to cluster around “the New right” a.k.a., a bunch of angry skinheads who lead torch marches to protect confederate statues and desperately need their rifles in bars, strip clubs, elementary schools and college campuses, don’t be surprised if men’s interests get brushed off as a fringe issue only of a concern to the fringes rather than being a mainstream discussion.
[–]double-happiness8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Plus, there is a big crossover between race and men's issues, what with false accusations, incarceration, and single motherhood all affecting black men and boys disproportionately.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Democrats in the 2000s are to white women what Democrats in the 1800s were to white men.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
This is an issue that affects the entire gamut of the political spectrum. There are guys who are perfectly okay with cuckoldry and they tend to stay with left leaning feminism ideology that says women should be able to do whatever the hell they want (I know a few of these and it makes me fucking gag). Guys who see how messed up this is look for alternatives. The only alternatives that exist are in traditional value systems. The result is that it pulls those of us who are left more right (hence the "new/alt right" label). That is actually a good thing because it creates a more moderate climate where people can see the value of a viewpoint that they once rejected.
[–]RK210010 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah because everyone who supports the right to own guns is a Nazi. You're a fucking tool.
[–]AlexiLaIas0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Mature and thoughtful responses all around you while you wade in with inarticulate emotional blather, get yourself all worked up and demonstrate how thoroughly triggered you were by what I wrote. Hose yourself down and give it a big boy try to do better next time.
[–]RK210010 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It was very articulate. You are a tool. Nay, a fucking tool.
Yeah, you do not have to be "rightist" in any way to be MGTOW. There are people on this sub from every geographical location, region, political spectrum and ethnicity.
[–]Pellaeon_redpill1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
“The new right”. And thus why men’s rights and interests are marginalized.
Symptom rather than the cause. Men's rights and interests are marginalized because of the gynocentric bias that humans have evolved. It takes conscious effort to fight it, and society is currently aligned to inflame it instead.
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 5 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
I dig it, but I would have said "Pursuit of women" rather than "Desire for Women".
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thank you, that is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. I think you are right. It fits better. Pursuit is a more conscious behavior than desire. Not to mention if the terms were better more MGTOW men would pursue women because the desire is there it's just kept in check.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Happy to contribute!
Incels don't really pursue - their whole philosophy revolves around giving up hope. I don't know of a good replacement term, but it would be something that means "judges a man's value by his attractiveness to women".
Gynocentrism perhaps?
Even then, there are many gynocentric MRAs, they just operate more on not offending women's feelz than judging a man by his lay count.
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
lolwhat?
the manosphere isn't conservative/right. it's mainly just anti-left.
[–]trseeker16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
anti-"progressive" may be more accurate. With "progressive" of course being between quotation marks.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
anti-regressive
[–]trseeker2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, however, the "progressive" control of the narrative have already co-opted the meaning of that phrase to indicate those on the "right."
So in passing many (especially "progressives.") will just assume "regressive" means "right."
And thus "anti-regressive" will come to mean "anti-right" in their mind.
Well-put!
[–]TheGillos11 points12 points13 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
MGTOW is apolitical.
[–]Throwawayforinsaniti1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I lean more lefty myself, but then I believe in the Second Amendment and in broader individual rights while also believing a solid social support structure is crucial for a functioning capitalist economy to maintain itself. If there were a viable Third Party, I'd be for it, but as much as I hate the democrats, I generally prefer them to the republicans. I voted for Bernie because he seemed like a safer middle ground that the D's and R's could both be unhappy about.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I mean right in the broadest sense imaginable (in terms of percentage of government control including no government, anarchy, libertarianism, all the way to today's GOP). There is probably even a bit of overlap into today's moderates.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
libertarians are moderates
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Some are, I like most libertarian principles. However others are more extreme than others. Roger, for example, might disagree. :)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Interesting infograph.
There are MGTOW from the "Europe" part of that spectrum. And monarchies too.
Also calling monarchies in Europe "100% rule by one" is really asinine. No kings or royalty have any sort of real power in Europe. All of them are democracies, with a spice of nostalgia to old monarchies. All honest monarchies with dictators were disposed of in the 19th and 20th century, the ones left "standing" did so because they gave up all their real power to other parts of the government.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Yep, I know I used to be much further left and am more center left now. This explains what I was getting at in more detail. Also the diagram isn't saying a modern European country like the United Kingdom is a pure monarchy. It is showing at one point there was rule by one in Britain. The graph is illustrating what complete government control looks like (100%) versus no government (0%). It does this by comparing numerous places and time periods and contrasts this to left versus right.
Hmm alright. Still slightly misleading though, present is kind of implied to me unless stated otherwise.
[–]RetiSetGo14 points15 points16 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
MGTOW isn't right-wing, or even politically slanted in general. Anyone who's a rational man is welcome.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Totally agree. This kind of bullshit is actually what is going to stigmatize this concept. Being MGTOW is a concept and not a movement and shouldn't even be on this grid of all things in the first place---and id it were, then it woud be a smaller square anyway.
The fact that this overall topic is being up voted is ridiculous. Heck, this is borderline unhinged cringe.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
MGTOW is a concept and not a movement
I'd say the red pill is a concept with a set of assorted facts that have been tried and tested. MGTOW is a way of being with a set of assorted philosophies. The word "movement" is more used as a way to refer to the group of people who identify with self-oriented goals with no imposition or commitments on their time in a LTR relationship.
A person can be a Buddhist for example and never go to a temple. Or take bitcoin. Some people use bitcoin purely as a savings vehicle. Others like it because of the technology and societal implications. Yet others use it as a way to create digital graffiti on the chain. They are all still part of the bitcoin movement by virtue of using the technology.
"Movement" doesn't have to imply activism. That is the reason for the one axis to separate that connotation. MGTOW isn't about being like everyone else in a group. It's just doing whatever works for you without letting a woman tie you down or control you by being aware of certain behaviors that are common to women.
[–]BitcoinBoffin1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Bitcoin is to fiat, what MGTOW is to gynocentrism. A wealth preservation vehicle that floats on an ocean of devaluation. And only gets more valuable as a strategy as trust exits the system.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Gresham's Law. ;)
this sub is a loose example of a movement while MGTOW is the concept (idea)
You are mixing up terminology and definition here if I may point that out.
[–]methylotroph11 points12 points13 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Wait a minute is the incels running people over with their cars counted as "Activism" because I would think incels are not very active, if anything the PUAs out ther peecocking are more active.
[+][deleted] 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[deleted]
I see now. Makes sense.
[–]BitcoinBoffin3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Good point. MGTOW is only now possible because of feminism. Traditionalism wouldn't of stood for male individuality on scale without the mass movement of female shittiness to point to as a valid excuse.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think MGTOW was always possible. Look at Tesla. Modern feminism just made it a much more obvious choice.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I was thinking the same thing.
Though perhaps radical activism?
[–]methylotroph2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Maybe activism should he quantified has how much you are "willing to do to try to change society"?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That could be it as well. Either way, I'm not complaining; I think this presentation is fairly accurate.
[–]methylotroph2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Me too.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
The new right? Stupid.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
It is mainly a right leaning movement. I see lots of elements of the alt-right in all this, but I suspect it will start pulling it in lots of left leaning guys as well even though the whole thing is founded on traditionalist values which is primarily a right leaning philosophy.
[+][deleted] 5 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]Lavochkin810214 points15 points16 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yup, social democrat here (centre left) but for some reason old friends are now accusing me of being a liberal (centre right) or worse.. :(
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Welcome to the club, that is half of why I'd like to better get my arms around this bear to better explain that I'm not some horrible monster who wants to subject people to indentured servitude. Pointing out the insane double standards though and the way men are regularly treated like shit apparently doesn't inspire calls for greater equity the same as it does with the feminist circle jerk.
[+][deleted] 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Lavochkin81021 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wanna make something of it? :) https://i.redd.it/42lsgjzozrn01.jpg
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Center-left myself. The one common theme in all this is a desire to return to traditional values in gender relations. I don't think anyone would say the MRA is a leftist movement for example.
Even personally, ten years ago if you had asked me what I thought about traditional value systems and whether men should have greater control over their families and wives, I would have said you were a barbarian. My viewpoint has veered much more right mainly because my personal observations have proven time and again that women are taking advantage of men while playing the victim card.
The alt-right largely consists of people who feel like everything is rigged against them (the economy, employment, social standing, political involvement, government lies, etc). Alt just means alternative as compared to the normal paleoconservative ethos spanning all the way to the neoconservative ideology.
The "altness" of the alt-right is still being defined and I have noticed a large number of alt-righters (people on websites like Above Top Secret or /r/conspiracy) overlap with men's rights issues and the same kinds of traditional values that come up in MGTOW discussions. I strongly suspect a whole new right movement is forming and we are just starting to understand what that is exactly.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
I might agree about women playing the victim card, but the solution is not having the government regulate it. Relationships with women were universally bad throughout history, regardless of approaches. The solution is GYOW, not political reforms.
Legislation to "fix" the problem is just treating the symptoms.
I don't disagree. The left-leaning approach encourages people to do whatever suits them (polyamory, female heads of households, genderfluid/trans/wtfever, etc). The point is men are wanting more traditional relationships which is more of a right leaning mindset. Hence "the new right." It's an expansion of right ideals and values into a category that previously wouldn't have even been considered by socially left demographics.
[–]RiceballonRage2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The red pill philosophy is leaning toward individualism so it is leaning toward the right, some might be alt right. I'm sure there are left leaning mgtow but I think those are the minorities.
[–]Helikzhan4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
To the loons giving the left a bad name anyone who wants individual liberty is a Nazi. Idiocracy invaded the left a generation ago. It won't recover.
[–]methylotroph3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Being for universal healthcare, free higher education, a living wag, etc, a strong social safety net so that the masses don't revolt and destroy everything... does not mean one is against individualism. Things are overall good, I don't want to be put up against a wall and shot simply because the poor can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
[–]RiceballonRage0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Being against it and being in it are 2 different thing. The red pill is more of indivilism in micro level where you are practicing it. You might support universal health care, free higher education, and other left leaning agenda stuff but that's on the macro scale. Individually, you are still responsible for yourself. Mgtow is a selfish philosophy where one should only support what is best for them at the individual level.
[–]methylotroph3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah well what is best for me is not having this developed society collapse economically or even socially because the rich could not pay back to the masses who lost their livelihoods from automation, outsourcing and immigrants.
[–]phreshstart1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
For instance I don't give half a fuck about politics, the system is broken and corrupt to the core... for me it does not matter who's in charge.
no it isn't. it's simply anti-left. and not even anti-all-of-the-left... i'd say a bit of the libs near the middle could still easily be redpilled.
[–]Rodion-Raskolnikov0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm very left wing and I'm disgusted at what the identity politics brigade has done to not just the left but society in general. Feminism has gone too far. Relations between men and women are broken beyond repair. MGTOW for life now.
You and me both. *fist bump*
[+][deleted] 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Steins20360 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I do get stressed from women, not because I want them but because the society expects me to want them and act accordingly.
[–]apugsthrowaway4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Swap TRP and incels. Incels want women but they're unwilling to change their behavior/outlook in order to find one.
[–]methylotroph7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No I get it now, activism is external change, not internal, it is a demand society change for you, or in incels case a total jealous hate for society.
Look I do feel sorry for the incels, but they got to figure out it is their own desire for sex and love that is causing them suffering, once they let go of that they are free.
[–]michaelkc030 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I’d just like to say that Desire for sex is biological. As man you have a natural desire to reproduce with a woman.
I don’t know anything about the incel crowd except that is stand for involuntarily celibate...I lean redpill/mgtow. They are not mutually exclusive.
What I like about the redpill is it opens guys eyes up to the true nature of women. It gives them the opportunity to affect their reality and perhaps obtain sexual relationships.
What I like about MGTOW is that it separates sexuality and masculinity. Sexuality is one aspect of masculinity, but it’s not the end all. In addition, MGTOW provides daily examples of how social institutions like marriage can be detrimental to a man’s life.
But all that aside, I’m a man. I like to have sex with women. If I choose not to that does not affect my masculine identity.
It’s just hard in my opinion to tell guys who are probably so sexually frustrated to eliminate their desire for sex...instead I say go checkout TRP, apply and then come back to MGTOW, it’s really a full circle process.
[–]XupaCudeGoianinha1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think it's more like they don't think it would matter either way.
[–]cekujiw1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is what happens when we try to use gender studies to shoehorn the manosphere into two arbitrary axes. Desire for women is probably not bad, but I'd call it risk aversion to women. One axis explains the difference between MGTOW and MRA, yet the other the difference between MGTOW and PUA/incel. But then the same x-axis can explain the difference between cucks/simps/betas and MGTOW. This is what happens when two outsiders (one new MGTOW) want to provide insight to a topic they aren't too familiar with themselves. It is like two toddlers trying to teach each other how to speak, mostly gibberish but it may give a semblence of sophistry to the untrained eye. Even few here notice the inconsistencies. Activism doesn't define incel unless the person is both MRA and incel. And we shouldn't be too hung up on labels like the progressives/liberal/leftists/feminists are, really, at the end of the day, incel is just an insult that the group adopted later, not unlike the N word. I'd say MGTOW should unite all men, feminists will always find ways to insult us, to slander us, to ostracize us, should we be concerned about the minutiae and unimportant differences between redpilled brothers? Divide and conquer is what they do. Should we too be a gated community where MGTOW is determined by celibacy, or the amount of misogyny or misanthropy displayed, or cynicism (inactivism), or how many marriages or children we have had?
[–]trseeker2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think this might be more accurate: Top row should be "Striving for external change/societal advancement." Bottom row should be "Striving for internal change/personal advancement." What do you think?
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You could probably think of the absolute bottom (Y=0) as striving for internal change/personal advancement) and the top (Y=1) as radicalization leading to attacks. If I had to guess most incel guys probably tried the whole PUA approach and just failed so they direct their frustration on society as a whole. PUA who are successful are getting what they want so they are not lashing out.
[–]trseeker0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The generic term "activism" though is misleading. You can have a MGTOW who is is more active in making change in their life than a MRA who is making little effort to change the external world.
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't disagree. That is really just a third axis that measures intensity of work (self or external). :) We can call that one the manocube.
[–]RationalMenWin1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I didn't know Incels were activists. I would have never guessed.
[–]I-am-the-lul1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Are Incels also activists?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
In what way are incels acitivists?
[–]Lavochkin81021 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I studied the van.
Reverses behind you with an obnoxious beeping noise.
“Nothing personal kid...”
[–]stringedbeams1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
good start, I want to see some vocel and TFL and a whole bunch of other things networked in there, purple pills and bluepills and married redpills and everything
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Somehow I think it would start to look like this. :)
[–]stringedbeams1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yah that's what I have in mind, graphs like that!
[–]SpinPlates1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I ride the line of TRP and MGTOW with a more redpill approach. Women are hypergamous sluts and are only as loyal as the next upgrade in man...That being said I'll never be able to stop sleeping with women but children and marriage is absolutely 100% never going to happen.
It's just a bad deal for men in today's society.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
How many plates have you cleaned today?
[–]SpinPlates0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
1 last night. She was dirty.
[–]irreditt1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Without labels, there are only people. And we’re all in this together.
What if: You have a high desire for activism, and high desire for women, and can get women? Where is that on the scale?
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Good question. The scenario that you are describing reminds me of a comment I read a month ago in a thread on Imgur. There is definitely an assumption that the greater the access to the kinds of women MGTOW men want (NAWALT / unicorns), Incel men want (any woman?), MRA men want (women that won't divorce rape them /w traditional values), and TRP men want (any hot chick?) decreases their presence in a given "manogrid" category. I'd guess a PUA who accepts the red pill who gets a new tinder hookup every night, but is disgusted with the whole culture is probably around here.
[–]genethedog1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
GOLD!
[–]aaaGreg0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is helpful
Lol 'activism'. Posting on the internet whining about being single is activism now?
[–]Dsingis1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"aka The New Right" speak for yourself.
Just because I'm MGTOW doesn't mean I'm not a social democrat.
[–]AntiAbleism0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I’m the farthest thing from right wing. Shit like this makes people not take us seriously.
[–]SirNecroKnight0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Makes sense I guess..
[–]fishtab0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What is MRA And TRP?
http://archive.fo/kLOU3#selection-3141.0-3141.266
How about 'Man-o-gram'.
[–]EconomistMagazine0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why is this the new right? Is this "right" as in political or correct? I'm confused
[–]hirayama_ronin0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Respectfully, I suggest the graph should be flipped, with the vertical ascending.
I suggest also that MRA doesn't fit into this graph. MRA is too broad a category. Upon what basis have you included it as desiring women less? Did you conduct a survey?
Also, I take issue with categorizing the Manosphere as necessarily the "new right." Men's issues cut through the right and left dichotomy. This is true even if there is a strong presence of right wing thinking in the manosphere.
Edit. I read your detailed write up, but still wonder why you included MRA as you did.
[–]csdspartans70 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So the new right is a bunch of virgins now?
[–]BalancingVices0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The manosphere has little to do with activism, let alone right-wing politics, though overlap happens.
Here's the real difference:
When faced with a defective and over-priced product,
1 MGTOW simply won't buy the product
2 TRP and PUAs try to convince the seller to give it away for free (with varying degrees of success)
3 Incels obsess over it and complain they cannot afford it
4 MRAs buy the product first and then demand the price should be lower (zero success guaranteed).
The manosphere has little to do with activism
MRA stands for Men's Rights Activists. The blackpill, the main philosophy behind incels, is a reproachment of all society. Right leaning belief systems (ignore the word politics because politics is a call for action- a person's beliefs or world view is something bigger) almost always overlaps with traditional values. What's fascinating is these traditional values are being accepted more and more by socially left men. This is why it fits the name of a "new right." The rest of what you wrote isn't contentious and I'd say is pretty on the money.
[–]BalancingVices0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I concede the MRA point: they don't get any change done, but they do protest in public, so yes, they are activists. Not sure about their left-vs-right leanings though. Talking about you plight, asking society to fix the problem and having enough trust in the fairness of the system, to even consider trying, seems to me like having a left-leaning outlook.
I've been around MGTOW long enough to recognize a pattern of personal responsibility and individualism, but that's just MGTOW.
I'm not convinced PUAs and incels tend to have any general leanings on the l-r spectrum. Even a commie could prioritize having a girlfriend or plates and fail or succeed.
What is the green shading supposed to represent?
Also, I wouldn't consider most incels activists. Most of them, the Reddit version anyway, just want to moan about how much they hate their lives. I believe they tend to stay in their own circle most of the time as they get shit on very quickly for popping in elsewhere.
MGTOWs, in my opinion, are more likely to try to convert others to their beliefs than incels.
[–]TotesMessenger0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)
© TheRedArchive 2024. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
[–]methylotroph135 points136 points137 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 26 points27 points28 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]0x123d4 points5 points6 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]drogosan1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SirNecroKnight5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]LuvMeTendieLuvMeTrue4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Hypogamy75 points76 points77 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 44 points45 points46 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]BitcoinBoffin13 points14 points15 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 6 points7 points8 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]BitcoinBoffin0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mojo_6669 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 65 points66 points67 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]DangZagnut36 points37 points38 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 14 points15 points16 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]zyk0s7 points8 points9 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]drogosan0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pellaeon_redpill0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]PoodankMcGee3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ProdigalPlaneswalker2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]trseeker4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlexiLaIas29 points30 points31 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]double-happiness8 points9 points10 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RK210010 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlexiLaIas0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]RK210010 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pellaeon_redpill1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 13 points14 points15 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pellaeon_redpill0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]trseeker16 points17 points18 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]trseeker2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TheGillos11 points12 points13 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Throwawayforinsaniti1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RetiSetGo14 points15 points16 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]BitcoinBoffin1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]methylotroph11 points12 points13 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (3 children) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]BitcoinBoffin3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]methylotroph2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]methylotroph2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points (18 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] -5 points-4 points-3 points (17 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (13 children) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–]Lavochkin810214 points15 points16 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–]Lavochkin81021 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 6 points7 points8 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RiceballonRage2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Helikzhan4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]methylotroph3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]RiceballonRage0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]methylotroph3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]phreshstart1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Rodion-Raskolnikov0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
[deleted]
[–]Steins20360 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]apugsthrowaway4 points5 points6 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]methylotroph7 points8 points9 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]michaelkc030 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]XupaCudeGoianinha1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cekujiw1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]trseeker2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]trseeker0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RationalMenWin1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]I-am-the-lul1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Lavochkin81021 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]stringedbeams1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]stringedbeams1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SpinPlates1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]SpinPlates0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]irreditt1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]genethedog1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]aaaGreg0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Dsingis1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AntiAbleism0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SirNecroKnight0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]fishtab0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]EconomistMagazine0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]hirayama_ronin0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]csdspartans70 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]BalancingVices0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]bitcoin-optimist[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]BalancingVices0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pellaeon_redpill0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]TotesMessenger0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link