You don't get a break from being the Oak

The_Litz · 2019-08-24T09:13:58+00:00

You are 100% right, you don't get a break from being an oak, but on the flipside, there are some events in life that break oaks.

This is such an event. Fuck that, you get to cry over your loss. If your wife can't handle it, it is her problem to overcome. As they say in the classics: It is what it is.

Right now she is scared, she doesn't know how much this has affected you. She doesn't know what to do and what you will be like going forward. She fled because she simply didn't know what to do.

You are starting a new phase in your life, life after the little man. Your relationship is reset to zero. Gains/losses are all back to nothing. What you do from here going forward is all that matters.

Strongs brother.

dilberryhoundog · 2019-08-24T11:21:59+00:00

A woman with others depending on her (her children) automatically becomes a dependent herself. Meaning your wife will be in a dependent relationship with you if she has your children. This simple dependency heiarchy is the basis of married redpill praxeology. The saying "men love women, women love children and children love puppies" is a direct result of this dependency heiarchy... love is easily felt towards those whom depend on you, but love is seldom felt from those whom are dependent upon you (it is usually adoration and affection that is returned to the lover). I could expand on this much more but will move on with how this my help you.

"Be the Oak" means be the one who can be depended upon, be dependable. This is sage advice because dependency can only flow one way, but the moment it is reversed it becomes very toxic. You cannot depend on your wife, she cannot (or not be allowed) to depend on her children and so forth. Codependent is the term for this reversal.

"I thought that somehow she would BE THERE for me, as I had been there for her."

You reversed the dependency, your relationship became codependent in that moment. To the dependent (your wife) this is very hard to handle, in essence, it is a signal to the dependant that you can no longer be depended upon and their well being is under significant threat. Your wife removed herself, so as to remove your dependency upon her, in the hope that the normal dependency heiarchy will resume, given some time. Deep down this "reversal" will be stored in a mind vault that will affect her relationship with you (how affecionate (sexual) she is with you) given how many other reversal examples are also stored in the mind vault at any one time. What your wife did was perfectly normal.

"promise to myself that nobody will ever see me cry again."

You don't have to do this. It is perfectly healthy to feel emotion, in fact the more intense and immediate it is, the more healthier it gets. You must NOT however share / transfer / direct that emotion to any of your dependants, this is where you fucked up. If you do get sad etc in front of your wife, you will get an immediate shit test incoming, "are you ok honey?" "whats the matter?", DO NOT ENGAGE, STFU, they are your emotions, not hers. Your emotions are what move you to new places or return you back to familiar territory (motion = move) . Rian Stone's quote on youtube "Lean into the pain" is still resonating like a bell in my head. Feel them, use them, but don't share them with anybody who depends upon you.

I had, what I call "emotional diabetes" for 39 years (my whole life essentially). A repression or "flattening" of the intensity and a prolonging of the duration of my emotional responses. (*The same as what happens to your insulin response when you become type 2 diabetic. Both emotional and insulin are responses to stressors)*^. This was the basis for nearly all my mental / life struggles. "Emotional diabetes" is the foundation for depression, addiction, feeling numb/empty/worthless, no productivity, poor assertiveness and many other negative behaviours. I really recommend not taking the repression route with emotions.

Edit: I think I have ADHD actually, of wich emotional diabetes is a huge part.

RP_PO · 2019-08-24T12:10:44+00:00

Thanks for sharing... it was hard to read since it brought back some terrible memories of my son dying from the brain cancer.

The good news is you had one slip up... I went into a 2 year depression. Found this place, got me better. That plus therapy.

But coming back to your post - AWALT. My wife didn’t know how to handle it and eventually overtly came out and told me “you have to deal with this on your own, I can’t help you”. And she was right. At the time I hated her for it - couldn’t she see I was hurting? He was my son too - not just hers. I had no good friends at the time - no outlet except her.

It may have destroyed our marriage (jury still out on that one). Now the roles reversed and I see her as needing help and leading her to get it (thanks to several of you guys).

I still yell when alone. I still break down and cry at random times when something reminds me of him. Hell - I watched an episode of a show and the guy’s son died and a tested up.

You can show emotion. What you cannot ever do is put your emotions in HER hands.

And fuck those people who change the subject when I bring up our son because it’s uncomfortable for them. He was an awesome kid - I’m going to tell you about him.

weakandsensitive · 2019-08-24T15:02:41+00:00

The topic of how to show vulnerability as a man is advanced as shit.

In essence, it boils down to being controlled in your emotions. And framed as the expectation that's she's special for being allowed to see them. And if she can't handle them, you can shut her out.

It puts the onus on her to appreciate how special she is that you are showing her a greater part of your core.

But that gets to your point --

but she literally had no idea how to handle a “man” who was acting like that.

You have to give her the guidance on how you expect her to respond to your purest self.

I get babied when I'm sick, because if I don't -- I tell my wife to fuck off, take care of everything myself, and remove from her the ability to be a value add.

simbarlion · 2019-08-24T10:32:28+00:00

Sorry to hear about this, I can't imagine. But if your wife is even half a woman, don't run her aground because she didn't know what to do when you took your hand off the tiller for a moment.

jacksarmy · 2019-08-24T10:48:20+00:00

Sorry for your loss.

Drummerboy860 · 2019-08-24T15:01:10+00:00

Not to sound like a jerk, but my wife has seen me in dire moments like that, even in tears - and she supported me.

There's also a man from my church who is very physically fit, has zero fear of public speaking, will sing at services, you name it. He once had a moment of doubt and sadness so severe he sat in his car for almost 3 hours - but his wife sat next to him and helped him through it while it passed.

Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds to me like your wife is immature and spiritually weak for not even simply talking to you and letting you vent about your own flesh-and-freaking-blood's early death. Shit like that is absolutely traumatizing, and there are some grown men who never, ever recover from something like that.

tap0988534 · 2019-08-24T17:53:54+00:00

Heavy fucking words.

Lingering upon them, I feel like this harbingers the need for close male friendships. Even 100 years ago, male friendships were viewed as the ultimate human relationship, but somewhere between faggotry and feminism, we lost this sense. Male friendships are the place for us to compete, lament, and be challenged to do better. We need them to replenish our masculine energy and right our course through life's treacherous storms. AWALT can never be our soulmate, friend, or closest companion.

Daddie0 · 2019-08-26T13:19:33+00:00

Regardless, sorry to read about the loss of your son.

I saw this years ago and have copy and pasted this into reddit threads quite a few times already.

What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early assumptions, men's shame is not primarily inflicted by other men. Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor.

"Most women pledge allegiance to this idea that women can explore their emotions, break down, fall apart—and it's healthy," Brown said. "But guys are not allowed to fall apart." Ironically, she explained, men are often pressured to open up and talk about their feelings, and they are criticized for being emotionally walled-off; but if they get too real, they are met with revulsion. She recalled the first time she realized that she had been complicit in the shaming: "Holy Shit!" she said. "I am the patriarchy!"

Brené Brown did a TED Talk on Shame, google it and then go to 15:30 in.

Here is also a quote from her in a Redbook article on the subject

"Men walk this tightrope where any sign of weakness illicits shame, and so they're afraid to make themselves vulnerable for fear of looking weak. But if you can't be vulnerable, then you can't truly grow and be your best self. Women can either embrace and help men walk across the tightrope, or we can be the ones who push them off."

Just like Brené Brown states in her video " For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one, do not be perceived as what? Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study. It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."

And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters?" I said, "Yeah." "They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the shit beat out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads. Because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else."

"So I started interviewing men and asking questions. And what I learned is this: You show me a woman who can actually sit with a man in real vulnerability and fear, I'll show you a woman who's done incredible work."

"Men are smart. They hear us asking for their vulnerability, but are also very aware that we may act scared or resentful when they show their vulnerable side. You wouldn't believe how often men tell me, "I pretend to be vulnerable, but I keep in under control," or "I give her enough to believe I'm being open because if I were totally truthful about how afraid or out of control I feel, she would judge me." Underneath the pretending lies hurt, disappointment, and shame."

SKRedPill · 2019-08-24T12:18:28+00:00

Sorry for your loss buddy. It's devastating for a parent to lose a child -- you also die in part when this happens. For anyone with unresolved pain, I'd always advise reading and following Eckhart Tolle (Power of Now) - I got out of my anger phase after 3-4 episodes of freeing up a lot of trapped pain and tension in my system -- his method of awareness is in my opinion the masculine method of dealing with pain, by allowing it space to dissolve in awareness. Death or any form of dying is a moment to snap us awake to the realities which we aren't ready to address till then.

I'm not advocating you become a believer of NDEs and all that either, but do read a few so that at least emotionally (emotions are not logical, but they need to be addressed), it gives you a new frame to look at these things. It needs you to completely bring acceptance to the unacceptable so that something new can begin where the old is gone. Do not resist the dying of the old and it will burn up to give way for the new. Your son, wherever he's gone, is at peace now. You are actually grieving for yourself for the part of you that died. Understand it. Somewhere down the long road, you too will have to face the only thing we all can be certain of in life, so when it comes, die in awareness and acceptance. Your life is mortal, live it well, do not live it poisoning yourself in pain, anger and just drowning it away.

Sad that your woman feels like bailing simply because she can't even wrap a hand on your shoulder and do nothing except just being there - but that's part inexperience and part incapability. Just remember, as a man, one thing I do observe is that people are exceptionally sensitive to the energy you put out, and women especially so. It is ok, do not develop oneitis even here.

And stuff like this is why you need good male friends - they'll have your back when you fall.

pencilinamango · 2019-08-24T23:39:10+00:00

First off... that sucks, and I'm sorry, no one should have to go through the loss of a child. Hang in there.

Second, My wife (and perhaps AWALT) tends to hate these kinds of "surprises."

Good surprises? Sure. Unexpected breakdowns/drama... not so much.

My wife and I are at the place where I can pre-pave something like this. Example. "Look honey, I've got this handled. Even though it's killing me inside. At some point in the future, it may all come flooding out, but for now I'm building a dam so I can get on with our lives and do what needs to get done. It doesn't mean I don't care and I'm not hurt, I'm just doing what needs to get done. When the time comes and the dam gives way (and I have no idea when/if that'll ever happen), then we'll deal with that then.

Horrible situation dude, and none of us is prepared for something like that to happen, there's no way to know how people will react.

Stay strong, bro.

HitTheWall88 · 2019-08-24T11:46:47+00:00

Sorry about your son. I hope you can find peace. Remember, even oaks break in the strongest of storms.

StimulusPackageOne · 2019-08-24T15:36:23+00:00

How many times have women told me : you're a robot.... And I always replied that I'm no robot but in control of my emotions because that's how a man deals with tough times... Most if not every time, these same women have stuck around until I decided they weren't inline with my goals and life's mission.

All this to say, being and remaining in control is work, it's hard and requires trumendous dicipline. But in the end, you're ultimatly seen as strong.

Go lift, get better at what you love and move forward even in the toughest of times.

[deleted] · 2019-08-25T01:56:23+00:00

I'm sorry for your loss.

Blarg_Risen · 2019-09-04T11:06:57+00:00

Look, ill preface by saying im fucking sorry you had to go through losing a son. That fucking sucks. But, and im going out on an oak limb here, you're wrong.

I'm late to the party here so you may be the only one who benefits from this reply. But you're wrong. Your wife was raised, as most women, most people are, that someone else will be there to help them and be someone to lean on when they hurt. It was her parents first, teachers, society, and now it's you. That's her view. But it's a flawed view.

Go read my post on a successful marriage. It's the same idea. Women were raised with that flaw. So when she sees you losing it as her protector, her wall, her oak, yeah she is going to recoil, because that doesnt fit her mental model. Do you know what you do then? No, you don't go into her frame, her idea of life where you always have to be the oak, and live in suffering for her benefit...no...instead you say "Hey, that's not fucking OK. I understand you see me as the man. And I've built myself up to be your wall when you need me. But I'm not emotionless. And this fucking hurts me too. I'm gonna ~~say no~~ cry here, and I'm not going to feel guilty about it. If you can't live with that, there's the door."

And you actually say that. Verbally. Clearly communicating without any chance of misinterpretation. So she can't claim some type of mental plausible deniability for misunderstanding.

A few times within the past year I've been knocked down. Not for the count, I was able to get back up, but I saw my wife step in for me when it was needed. And not an ounce of love was lost from it.

What kind of 1st mate do you want? One where if the captain gets his arm cut off while raiding a ship the first mate mutinies? Or the one who steers the ship while you stop the bleed in your cabin, and when asked about the captain she proclaims he is absolutely fine.

When you tell her how shit will run, how you choose to not kill your emotions to save her like some nice guy martyr, she can either choose to understand those words and change, and the 1000ft rope becomes more taut, or she can deny that and continue living in her matrix, and call you a wimpy faggot. You get your choice. She gets hers. That's marriage in a nutshell.

Or you can keep changing yourself so she has a comfy stable life. Dance monkey dance. Your choice.

Over60_FireTempered3 · 2019-08-24T13:33:46+00:00

So sorry for the loss of your child.

I'm not the hardest core RP, or the smartest RP here, but I'm probably the oldest. Saying that I'll offer you my experience here.

Of all the couples that lost a child that I have known, and I can think of a dozen right now, and I know there were more, only one couple is still together.

It wasn't easy for them to stay together, but they did. Maybe they were exceptional, but I do know they talked about splitting up along the way to staying together.

My simple advice is to take your time and give YOURSELF the space you need to navigate this. Don't forget, she doesn't have to come along for the ride, but she has to CHOSE it.

Vegasman20002 · 2019-08-24T14:32:51+00:00

Brutal story. Sorry to hear it.

TakeIIRP · 2019-08-24T17:16:36+00:00

Personally, can't imagine going through that and it's something others have gone through.

Best of luck to you OP on your journey.

Aechzen · 2019-08-25T12:57:29+00:00

There's an old aphorism in politics, that "If you want a friend, get a dog." (it gets attributed to Truman; I have no idea whether he made it up)

It's not horrible advice when it comes to AWALT and male performance burden either.

Talking about things you need to talk about it not a horrible idea; you probably need to do it with literally anybody but her. It's okay to hire a counselor for some sessions. It's okay to take a long walk in the woods and talk out loud. It's okay to talk to your best male friends about that stuff.

DrRoccoTano · 2019-08-26T12:12:25+00:00

Others already wrote here in a way more eloquent manner than I'd be able to, connecting your story to some solid RP theory and so on. So I'll just add some annedoctal experience here.

You don't get a break from being the Oak I couldn't agree more with that. In the end of the day, when you put your head in the pillow, you're alone and it's up to you only to handle your shit. That's RP 101 and we all know that.

But oaks also break if an hurricane passes through. Do not use your beloved wife as a crutch, she doesn't even know how to be one. But don't hold this shit inside of your chest man, THIS WILL KILL YOU. It's no coincidence suicidal rates are so high and stress-related deaths (heart attack and such) are so common among men.

Look for your best friends, a support group, a therapist or whatever the fuck gets you comfortable to vent. Talking and crying helps you process it.

Talk to your wife. Don't cry in front of her if you don't want to, but you can't lead if you don't show yourself as an empathic emotional being (Jocko develops a lot better than me on that). Showing emotions doesn't mean to break down in front of her.

Stay strong brother.

BluepillProfessor · 2019-08-26T16:14:01+00:00

I thought that somehow she would be there for me, as I had been there for her. Guess again, fucker: AWALT.

Like a steel toed boot to the ribs. Your wife's AWALT was similar to my wife's AWALT but I made the mistake of going to grief therapy with her. Sobbing in front of you wife and a bunch of women is not the way to gain or maintain attraction. Your way is much better.

I hope you can cut you wife some slack and not be angry with her. It would literally be like being angry at a deer for darting away when you start to become threatening. These are deep, deep reflexes and the all consuming terror she felt at your meltdown must have been a shock and source of fear to the poor little (ahem) deer.

Finally, please consider grief therapy (without the wife knowing) because you know the canard about tamping down those bad feeling year after year. Tick...tick....tick. All the experts claim you have to let them out when tragedy strikes- and the death of a child is one of the greatest tragedy the mind can imagine.

/u/redpillcoach had a very recent video about how you are alone and the wife cannot be there for you when times are hard. The most she can do is STFU and get out of the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmRTUR4vwrc&t=585s

BarracudaRP · 2019-08-30T10:59:51+00:00

My wife had been begging me to talk to her, we can work it out, she's here to help, blah blah blah.

So I did an experiment: I talked to her about my stressful day, and my thoughts about life and goals and what I did at the gym. I was sure to pick the most vapid, shallow topics because I already knew the result.

As soon as I spoke of my struggles, I absolutely watched the look of disgust flash across her face. She hid it well though, because her voice and body language were sweet and her words sounded like friendly encouragement.

I was raised to believe that good men are in touch with their emotions, and that to do otherwise was to be an emotionally unavailable asshole. I still have to remind myself to not show weakness in front of my kids, because I used to be such an emotional tampon for everyone. My wife and kids don't want to see dad have a vulnerable moment of self rationalization, they want to make sure I'm not a pussy so that we'll all still be able to eat next week.

streaker2014 · 2019-08-24T18:50:52+00:00

Sorry. This is not an example of AWALT. Your wife was just being a shit human being. A wife who actually loved her husband wouldn’t throw him under the bus like this. People are individuals. Women aren’t monolithic. They all react differently. This is a symptom of a bigger problem within your marriage, not an excuse to show other men that women will ALWAYS throw them away. They won’t. A weak and ungracious person is not made by their gender. The death of a child does strange things to a marriage. You couldn’t possibly assume that all women will behave in the same manner as your wife in this situation. The pseudo scientific psychoanalytic bs in this sub can get a little out of hand. Don’t get sucked into this blame game mentality. Individuals make choices in their best interest. End of story.

Iammrp2 · 2019-08-24T13:01:21+00:00

So sorry for your loss. I'm glad you found this place. Welcome brother.

Non_Merger · 2019-08-25T21:29:23+00:00

Very sorry for your loss. Very much appreciate you sharing your experience.

mrp_awakening · 2019-08-26T13:12:12+00:00

Yeah... sexual dynamics can be shitty at times. Your wife wants to be able to turn to you for support. How can she do that if you're showing that you're beaten down yourself?

The alpha traits women are attracted to are protector traits. Protector includes both physical and emotional. That's why both lifting and frame are separately important... they compliment each other.

RP_PO · 2019-09-20T09:55:50+00:00

I agree with most of this. But It’s not the vulnerability itself that is a gift to her. Like you said, that’s a weakness/vulnerability either way. If I choose to show her that vulnerability, and thus my most “true self” or whatever the hell....i do consider that a gift to her, and to us combined. I screwed it up by showing it to her as a covert contract, which is a double whammy of weak. 1. The initial weakness of losing a son, which is understandable, and 2. The weakness of how I deal with that, looking for cuddles from mommy. I’ll never again show vulnerability from a position like that. That’s my frame. Im open to being convinced otherwise on the matter of showing vulnerability as a gift.

Title	You don't get a break from being the Oak
Author	RP_PO
Upvotes	175
Comments	72
Date	August 24, 2019 7:08 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MarriedRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/cuqa4e/you_dont_get_a_break_from_being_the_oak/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/you-dont-get-a-break-from-being-the-oak.250546 https://theredarchive.com/post/250546