A story about introducing another couple to non-monogamy slowly, and the virtues of moving slowly versus quickly
The Red Quest | February 14, 2022 | by The Red Quest
-------------------------
I want to talk NOT about how, during a holiday, I wound up naked with
my then-girlfriend and two other couples while rolling on MDMA
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2021/06/07/integrating-smart-drugs-like-mdma-molly-smartly/],
but about how we got there, over time, and through deep knowledge of
the other participants. Neither of the other couples had ever done
anything like this before… I’m going to name the other couples
after the girls in them, “Allison” and “Zephyra.” “Hot girl
in her 20s gives me a blowjob!” could the salacious, pornified
headline, and, don’t get me wrong, it was great… I could write a
whole story from the perspective of that moment, and me being such a
baller player, but, as with _The game’s endgame and picking up a
girl at a private party
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2020/02/11/the-games-endgame-and-picking-up-a-girl-at-a-private-party/]_,
the moment of hot consummation isn’t the most educational, relevant
element (there are many educational, relevant elements in the free
book [https://theredquest.wordpress.com/free-book-on-sex-clubs/]).
Neither is the fact that our other female friend, Zephyra, offered a
bit of a contribution, so, technically, two other girls were involved.
I know of zero straight guys who don’t want to look down and see two
pretty girls knob polishing (if you are one, feel free to comment on
why you don’t want to see this).

“Build wealth slowly” xbtusd [https://www.whatisityouseek.com]
likes to say. Like many things he says, there’s an oracular,
inscrutable quality to that… in another life, he could be one of
those Buddhist teachers, wapping their acolytes with a stick and
emitting peculiar koans. What’s “Build wealth slowly” mean?
We’re all familiar with “get rich quick” schemes, which never
really work out and which ensnare the unwary. They don’t work, but
they’re appealing because of their speed.

“Build wealth slowly” means that things don’t happen quickly,
but skills and financial abilities compound, slowly, over time. The
compounding interest formula is A=P(1+r/n)^nt: A is the final amount;
P the initial principal; r the interest rate; n the number of interest
applied per time period; and t the the number of time periods elapsed
(I had to look up the formula and didn’t recall it off the top of my
head). Compounding means that returns aren’t linear, and the
greatest returns happen at the end of the period, after many moments
of compounding.

Relationships usually have compounding qualities, and the best parts
of them often occur after the getting-to-know-you phase and after
trust building. Lots of relationships fall apart early on due to all
sorts of things… character flaws, character mismatch, IQ flaws, IQ
mismatch, interest mismatch, intolerance, lazy woman… too many to
name here. True wealth is almost never instantaneous: it’s the
result of doing the right thing, day after day, and seeing the returns
happen over time, non-linearly. Even the very wealthy generally get
that way after many years: Bezos was “rich” from Amazon stock by
2000, by 2002, but _nothing_ like what he achieved after decades of
stewardship. Mark Zuckerberg is richer than ever because he’s done
the right thing, as measured by Facebook’s users’ engagement, year
after year (complain and whine about Facebook / Meta all you want,
users love that shit). Elon Musk saw Tesla nearly go bankrupt at least
twice. All persevered through challenges. No one gets fit after a day,
week, or month of lifting; it takes longer than that to see real
progress.

Back to the point, I’d known both the Allison couple and the Zephyra
couple for more than a year: we met coincidentally, around the same
time, and we’ve all hung out a lot since then. We’ve all got
sufficient mutual interests to bind us together. All four of them have
known about my predilections since relatively early on… while I’m
not super open with those predilections, I don’t hide them either
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/free-book-on-sex-clubs/].

Often, they start as a casual mention, “I was at this group-sex
event this one time…” or “My then-girlfriend and I were on a
date with this other woman, and…” That sort of thing, which
emerges organically as a part of a story. People are really, really
interested in all matters relationship and sexual (don’t believe me?
Watch almost any TV show, listen to almost any popular music, listen
to groups of chicks clacking…), so such casual comments almost alway
elicits follow-up questions (if it doesn’t, that’s also fine).
When I talk about problems I’ve solved at work, girls have the vibe
of waiting to be somewhere else. Okay, whatever dad, shut up. Pay
attention to what people like, and give them more of that. A good
chunk of my social life has been bound up in these matters for a long
time, so people who get to know me, usually hear about these
adventures. They hear about the other participants.

More than a year ago, I gave a copy of THE ETHICAL SLUT to Allison,
and when her and her boyfriend finished, they gave it to Zephyra and
her boyfriend, so all four have read, or claimed to have read, it.
Though the book is far from perfect (missing completely evolutionary
and evolved mechanisms
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2017/07/30/evolutionary-biology-underpins-game/]
favoring monogamy or mate guarding, and missing jealousy from an
evolutionary perspective
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/09/18/jealousy-and-non-monogamy/]),
it’s sufficient for first-time exposure and for framing the
conversation a couple might have. Not only that, but both girls were
in sororities and consequently had had at least some experience with
same room f**king… but all four, and especially the girls
(interestingly, the two other girls were leading a bit more than their
boyfriends) like that both myself and my then-girlfriend are somewhat
open about our experiences and interests. We’ve both told stories,
and stories naturally embed moral and ethical principles in them, a
thing that Jesus and the writers of the Bible understood.

All four of the others, in addition to having read THE ETHICAL SLUT,
understood that I especially come from an abundance mindset
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2019/12/09/group-sex-and-the-shift-from-scarcity-to-abundance/].
The guys know I’m not going to try to steal their girls, and am in
fact not interested in doing that. Non-monogamy shifts guys’s
mindsets from scarcity to abundance, a fact that is not sufficiently
frequently discussed.

Different people vary in their propensity to engage in this domain, a
topic I’ve discussed before: _How many women are open to sex parties
and partner swapping? [intermediate/advanced]
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/how-many-women-are-open-to-sex-parties-and-partner-swapping-intermediate-advanced/]_.
In that, I guess around 75% of women might be open to some form of
non-monogamy, if the non-monogamy is pitched correctly. Someone like
Ms. Slav [https://theredquest.wordpress.com/?s=%22Ms.+Slav%22] is
ready straightaway. Someone like Short Dancer
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/?s=%22short+dancer%22], another
girl I was super into, I never got to go, although I also misread
Short Dancer and didn’t give her the safety, security, and priority
she’d have needed. My mistake. We want to do things that we see
other high-status people doing, a point elaborated in _Status/coolness
first, THEN evangelize for whatever the thing is_
[//theredquest.wordpress.com/2019/02/20/status-coolness-first-then-evangelize-for-whatever-the-thing-is/].
Much advice around pickup and dating fails because it’s given by
people who aren’t successful first.

So, on that holiday night, my then-girlfriend and I had planned to
roll, but none of the others had. We began rolling at Allison’s
party, and we chattered (rapidly!) with others, made out with each
other, and eventually left the party to have our own party, which is
not a bad idea if one couple is rolling and no one else is. But, later
in the evening, we got some texts from Allison, and from Zephyra’s
boyfriend, saying that they’d decided to drop too. Oh…
_interesting_. We all converged at my place, and the roll was on.
Without having rolled yourself, it’s not possible to properly
understand the physical or mind state that rolling creates, on the
correct dosage. It makes one considerably more open, loving, empathic,
and engaged by others. Some people also get really, really horny (some
guys can get hard on mdma, which must be a blast). I was hitting the
end of my roll, so I could. The other guys both could even in the
heart of their rolls.

At my place, we chattered, more like chittered, as only people on mdma
rolls can, and the questions about non-monogamy kicked up, as well as
statements about their admiration for the things my then-girlfriend
and I had done, and the way we seem to have done them. It was too hot,
for everyone, so everyone took off their clothes (this makes complete
sense in the mdma mindset: take my word for it). My then-girlfriend
and I had wanted to fuck anyway, and the girls all began going down
the guys. Which led to some touching and switching. Which led in turn
to some of the girls switching which partner they were going down on.
And the “straight” girls going down on one another… there are
very few truly straight girls on mdma. I fucked my girlfriend some,
couldn’t finish, enjoyed the general compliments from the others
(porn in real life (“IRL”) is hot, and people spend too much time
in virtual worlds today), and some other fucking happened too, but the
overall feel and vibe was that of abundance, joy, and pleasure.

Much later, Allison and I were alone for a minute, and Allison said
that checking with her boyfriend before she went down on me was a good
move… I was like, “Yeah, been down this road before, it’s good
to align everyone and give everyone a no-recriminations veto
option.” Failure to create alignment is a path to later resentment.

Rolling often encourages and facilitates shedding inhibitions and
clothes, as well as encouraging touching, and were already heading in
that direction. I didn’t want, for a variety of reasons, to go
“all the way” to penetrative sex with others. Part of those are
internal to my girlfriend and me, and that’s the biggest part. In
addition, the other four hadn’t done anything quite like that, and I
think it often better to experiment a little, pull back, and let them
discuss among themselves what things feel like. That’s part of the
long game, the effort to build wealth slowly. It’s possible to get
overly wrapped up in the moment, do something you regret, and then
have explosive consequences the next morning. To hold back lets each
couple process what happened and decide whether it’s going to be
that crazy thing they did this one time on mdma, or whether it’s
something they wish to pursue and incorporate into their lives, and I
don’t have a strong view about which way anyone else should go. To
live should be to pursue the best version of your life possible, and
what the good life looks like will differ by individual.

I do think, too, that holding back on that night demonstrated the
mutual trust we’d spend a year or more building. To change
someone’s mind takes time, reading, and thinking. To attempt to
force an ideology or way of life on someone will merely sever
relationships. We’ve all met someone who is overly enthusiastic
about whatever their thing is… Marxism, Christianity, psychedelics,
non-monogamy, multi-level marketing schemes, the list goes on. Too
much enthusiasm doesn’t work, though neither does too little.

It takes a long time to know people, to trust them. I’ve seen
research claiming you have to spend 40 hours with a person to move
from acquittance to distant friend, probably 200+ hours to move from
distant friend to closer friend. There’s no real shortcut to that
process, apart maybe from fame
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/06/12/when-youve-done-it-all-what-then/]
or something else not relevant to my life or yours. New ideas also
take a long time to take hold. Change is slow, and most of us do
what’s familiar because that’s safe, and that’s what our
training is in. What we do is mostly working. We don’t want to shred
our social or familial networks. Also, if you go back in time, not
very far… you’ll see that a lot of “innovations” were
dangerous. In the Joseph Henrich books, there are descriptions
[https://henrich.fas.harvard.edu/publications] of Europeans in the New
World dying from all sorts of stuff, cause they didn’t copy Indian
ways of preparing foods and doing things, such that the things they
were trying to do were done wrong, and that killed them. Not following
the herd has, for most of human history, been extremely dangerous.
Conservation of current practices, a latent conservatism, makes sense
from an evolutionary standpoint. The wealth and technology necessary
for the current non-monogamy vogue is a recent development
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/what-do-we-spend-our-excess-money-on-sex/].
We’re more afraid of losing what we have than gaining something new.

That night was amazing. As a more general principle, getting to know a
girl over a longer period of time will result in her being more
willing to try sex clubs and non-monogamy. The longer you know her,
the more hours you spend together, the deeper your connection.
Usually, something like two months is probably optimal: long enough
for you two to know each other, not so long that she feels like
she’s been bait-and-switched.

Sometimes I’ll tease sex clubs sooner, most often when the girl says
something indicating she might be into them. If she seems sex
positive, says anything about non-monogamy, claims she likes to party,
says she’s not looking for anything serious, evinces serious
interest in drugs (not heroin or other opioids, which are evil, I will
run from anyone who uses them)… those are signs she’s likely to be
interested and that proffering sex clubs may increase her interest in
me, because I can offer things she wants and peak experiences that
other guys can’t. This kind of girl is unusual.

Then, there are girls I’m marginal about, or in whom my interest is
lukewarm. I like her well enough but am not super excited about her,
and yet we’re sleeping together. These girls, I’ll often propose
we visit a sex club, or a sex party, quickly: she might be into the
idea, and, if she’s a hard “no,” I know we’re not meant to be.
I’ve had amazing, incredible, ecstatic experiences by bringing girls
I’m lukewarm about, but then swapping with another couple, or
picking up a single girl. Plus, as a guy, bringing a new girl into the
scene increases your reputation. Other people will want to get to know
you more, and want to invite you to their parties. Reputation is a
form of long-term wealth or personal capital. Build it in any scene,
and you’ll see positive results (xbtusd has also built a lot of
reputation capital in his local non-monogamy scene, and some of his
stories [https://theredquest.wordpress.com/?s=xbtusd] show the payoff)

In the book THINKING, FAST AND SLOW
[https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman-ebook/dp/B00555X8OA?&linkCode=ll1&tag=piooiseujk-20&linkId=d9fc2627de8128b94e98d1aab0cea7da],
Daniel Kahneman discusses “system 1” thinking (fast, automatic,
instantaneous, often wrong) and “system 2” thinking (slower, more
deliberate, more energy efficient). If all of our thinking were system
1, we’d not be able to grow and do things differently, and we’d
make more mistakes. If all of our thinking were system 2, we’d not
get anything done (most of us don’t deliberate for long periods of
time about what we want to eat in the morning: we grabs the eggs, make
them, and get on with our day). Most of us have ingrained “system
1” responses to non-monogamy: immediate rejection, even if group sex
fantasies are extremely common. But, if we apply system 2, we can see
if or when non-monogamy makes sense… Red Quest blog is almost
entirely system 2 thinking, describing how things work and how to
think about and implement them.

Most group sex, it seems to me, doesn’t happen “spontaneously,”
but as a result of planning, education, and intentional execution,
though the immediate “go” moment may nominally spontaneous. Women
like it when things “just happen.” Men plan to make things happen.
To get anyone to learn or do anything, you have to repeat yourself a
lot [https://tomtunguz.com/why-you-should-repeat-yourself/], often in
the exact same words and the exact same way, or with enough variations
to get someone to internalize the ideas. That’s basically how
advertising works, the company shows you, thousands of times, some
image or moving images describing how great they are and how great and
sexually desirable you will be if you buy their product. Companies
like Apple and Nike are particularly successful at this (well… Nike
used to be, but now they’re pussy
[https://houseofstrauss.substack.com/p/nikes-end-of-men]). Changing
minds, ideologies, ingrained patterns, cultural conditioning… none
of this happens quickly. Changes that appear to be quick are in fact
almost always the result of months or years of preparation to change.
The fooling around we did with Allison and Zephyra came about because
of more than a year of discussion and mutual time spent around each
other. We’ve been very exposed to them, and them to us, and that
exposure created the conditions that MDMA facilitated coming to
fruition. Did it “happen” on the holiday? Yes. But, another way of
looking at it is, it “happened” over the course of the year of us
getting to know each other, and me talking about my experiences in
this domain and how these things work. Most of the time, we talk about
other things… work, life history, books… the complete human
experience… I’ve met 3/4 of the others’s parents… neither me
nor my girlfriend are fly-by-night strangers in their lives.

This post is structured like the rest of the Red Quest blog… it is
textual and deeply analytical. It’ll repel stupid, short-sighted
people. The talk about the compounding interest formula will make dumb
people return to video games or gossip Instagram or whatever else it
is that stupid people do. The post is designed to attract the ideal
readers, who are capable of thinking for themselves, like most people
aren’t. I’m not saying you have to agree with it… you don’t,
many won’t… but it’s targeting people who aren’t fools. One
disappointing thing about life is the sheer number of fools out there.
I can’t fix other people’s folly, but I can encourage deep
thinking of the sort almost totally absent from “social” media,
which is what I’m doing now. This is a “system 2” blog.

You can see the complexity of the world from the number of links in
this post (at least 15, as of the draft in which I last counted),
including the number to other Red Quest posts. To talk about these
issues is to talk about the whole universe. By now I may have written
hundreds of thousands of words describing how to do these things, how
to think about them, how I have done them… Red Quest is the result
of at least 12 years of learning, and I’m still learning, even
today. Probably I’ll be learning when I die, or become sufficiently
infirm as to be effectively dead. There is no easy way, there is only
the hard way
[https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/10/17/there-is-no-easy-way-there-is-only-the-hard-way/].

 
-------------------------
Archived from https://theredarchive.com/blog/The-Red-Quest/a-story-about-introducing-another-couple-to-non.44688