CluePublic5213 Archive

Upvotes	Title	Category	Author	Subreddit	Date (UTC)

Upvotes	Comment on	Subreddit	Date (UTC)
8	I absolutely hate term "Emotional Labour" Emotional labor isn't inherently bad as a concept: its original use (referring to customer service work) is coherent and useful. It's only how it's used now that's made it useless. 1) Applying it to within relationships. Providing emotional support to your partner, the "mental load," etc are all important things to discuss and have gendered implications, but emotional labor has essentially been watered down to the point of meaning "anything you do as part of a relationship that doesn't give you …	/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates	05/01/24 03:12 PM
–	Is it unfair that hinge has a height preference but doesn’t have a weight/body type preference? For what it's worth, Whitney started Bumble with the intention of not allowing filtering by height: Why doesn’t Bumble have an option for users to enter their height? It’s so funny, we get probably 15 emails a day asking about that! Height, for me, doesn’t feel like something I would ever want to put in. It can lead to snap judgments or hurt feelings, and things that I would never want to promote. It's up to the person to discuss when they were chatting. https://www.racked.com/2015/3/24/8266243/…	/r/PurplePillDebate	09/11/23 12:40 AM
4	Do you feel online dating is alienating the sexes more? The core issue with online dating is the algorithms: the most attractive people are disproportionately displayed first. This is an appealing trap for women (and men). They end up being shown all the most attractive guys who haven't yet left the dating arena. Those are, almost by definition, those who aren't suitable for long term relationships: they get a lot of interest and haven't found someone they want to settle down with. Maybe it's because they're overly picky; maybe it's because they have…	/r/PurplePillDebate	25/10/23 02:30 AM
3	Why are woman so annoyed by men finding their promiscuity unattractive when these same woman will invariably judge a guy that uses sex workers? It's a matter of degree. But prostitution is exposing you to dehumanizing situations more than serving flapjacks. The vast majority of people, given a choice at a minimum wage job, would choose the latter over the former.	/r/PurplePillDebate	25/10/23 02:14 AM
6	Why are woman so annoyed by men finding their promiscuity unattractive when these same woman will invariably judge a guy that uses sex workers? I feel like a more direct analogy is if there's a man who's slept with other men. Making sex a monetary transaction adds lots of complications. But most women will judge a man who's slept with a dozen other men much more harshly than a woman who's slept with a dozen other men: if consensual sexual history shouldn't influence how women are judged as partners, why should sexual history influence how men are judged as partners? The answer is that women instinctually find bisexual men gross, just as…	/r/PurplePillDebate	25/10/23 01:57 AM
3	Women don't save money because they expect the man to take care of them Men tend to die earlier than women, leading to there being far more widows than widowers (~3:1). I'd be curious if the single owner statistic includes those widowed: if so, it would probably account for at least half of the difference.	/r/PurplePillDebate	17/10/23 11:58 PM
4	Women don't save money because they expect the man to take care of them I strongly doubt the single women buying homes are never-married single mothers buried with student debt. The vast majority are going to be either widowers or divorcees or single career women who have never had children. That said, even if you are a single woman with a child, it still makes a lot of sense to buy a home; it's not like renting protects you from losing your residence if you lose your job and can't make payments. You get substantial more legal protections against eviction than a ren…	/r/PurplePillDebate	17/10/23 11:50 PM
1	My thoughts about male loneliness. It's stupid and unfair to attribute the worst actors who are self-declared feminists as representatives of the entire feminist movement. People righteously get annoyed when people reference pond scum to slime anyone interested in the well being of men; it's just as shitty to take the most misandrist opinions that the worst self-proclaimed feminists have and attack the entire movement as supporting it. (For the record, I agree that "patriarchy" and "privilege" are wildly underspecified ideas that…	/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates	02/10/23 02:40 AM
1	What are some counterarguments to the claim that false rape accusations are a myth/extremely rare? There's some proportion of men who are terrible people. There's some proportion of women who are terrible people. At a high level, those proportions are roughly equal. And, in the same way that terrible men are willing to rape, terrible women are willing to make false accusations. This doesn't address the statistics. But most women know one or a couple of genuinely terrible women, and you draw on their experience with those women to generate the insight that, yes, some men can be falsely accused…	/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates	02/10/23 02:14 AM
6	I'm I the only one who noticed some feminists do this odd thing where they want the best of 3 worlds? Feminists want people to be free of restrictive gender roles Suppose two men went into a heterosexual feminist space. They are pretty much identical, except man A is tall, has a high status job, and is "confident" (i.e. performative of the male gender role in social spaces) and man B is short, has a low status job, and is less confident. Who is going to get more sexual attention? The usual response is "the masculine traits that women are attracted to have nothing to do with gender roles!" To me,…	/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates	02/10/23 12:55 AM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Okay, receipts, as I pull out my copy: Both men and women do emotion work, in private life and at work. Men and women come to experience emotion work in different ways There is also a difference in the kind of emotion work that men and women tend to do. Men, of course, pay court to certain other men and women and thus also do the emotion work that keeps deference sincere. About a quarter of all working men are in emotional labor jobs. Literally dozens of statements like these. Pull out your copy…	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 03:32 AM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. It was coined by a woman to describe the expectation of women to suppress their emotions in the workplace And now you're inventing things. It was coined by Hochschild to refer to the emotional management any employee in the workplace, not solely women. they don't actually care about it until it can be used against women. This is an example of that. That's a lot of invective without much content. Do you really think that when men report that they're expected to perform stoicism in relationships w…	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 03:02 AM
5	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. I've never been expected to bring a sense of stoicism to a relationship. Lucky you. And, for what it's worth, I never heard women refer to emotional labor until labor activists started talking about it. Concepts have a life of their own and often end up having muc broader relevance than originally conceived. I have always received much harsher reactions from men than women when revealing that I'm bi (I've yet to have a woman call me a fag, but I've lost track of the number of men who have) Never…	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 02:42 AM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. There are choices, and they're constrained by the social context they're embedded into. Both statements are true. Simply because a choice is made doesn't mean that you can't critique the social context the choice was made in.	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 01:15 AM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. No one is making the statement "every woman finds only this trait attractive," as has been pointed out multiple times. The argument is that there are statistical tendencies in what women like. Repeatedly trying to change the argument to the first claim doesn't help your case, and mostly reveals that you think the claim that there are statistical tendencies in what women like is going to be a hard claim to dispute.	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 01:11 AM
1	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Only if he wants to date the head cheerleader That's unfair to cheerleaders; as far as I can tell, they're no more likely to be very concerned with enforcing make gender roles than any other woman. Which is to say, some don't, many do. Internalized misogyny means women who are nasty to women in order to gain approval from misogynistic men. If you believe masculinity is superior to non-masculinity (you yourself use words like "improve" to talk about going from less masculine to more masculine), y…	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 01:08 AM
4	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. 1) The gendered emotional labor men are expected to bring to the relationship. Meaning, providing a sense of stoicism and being a rock. Initiating and driving the relationship. 2) Choosing jobs that are more dangerous, more unpleasant, or out of line with your values in order to have higher status and ability to be a provider. 3) Sexuality. E.g. bi men are pressured to closet themselves when dating women, and straight men are discouraged from homosocial love. Just a couple.	/r/PurplePillDebate	28/05/23 01:01 AM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. The variation of attraction on an individual basis doesn't change the social pressures that exist in nonconformant men, however. And a lot of the rhetoric about the complexity of these trends is to deny that those pressures exist and are applied to men.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 11:20 PM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. A concrete example: explicitly asking for consent before you kiss someone or initiating any kind of new sexual activity. This is far more common in LGBT dating and no one would judge someone for it; the same is not true in straight dating, as asking indicates some kind of "lack of confidence" (even though it's hard to get what asking for consent had to do with someone's self esteem).	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 11:14 PM
13	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. The existence of individual women who buck a trend doesn't mean the trend doesn't exist. And the existence of a trend creates pressures on men to change themselves to match the trending preference, which leads to both personal and social toxic outcomes.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 11:07 PM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Would you agree that it's fine to be frustrated by a gender role and try to change it, so long as it's also fine for people to push against that change however they want?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 11:00 PM
4	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Both are absolutely true. However, there's very little interest in exploring how women enforce gender standards of men in media, academia, and government, while there is a strong interest in highlighting on how men enforce standards on women. (Granted, PPD might sometimes make the opposite error.)	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 10:55 PM
5	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. It's at least consistent to say that everyone just needs to accept their gender role and have no right to be frustrated by the existence of that gender role. So long as you apply that equally to men and women, we can save the argument for whether gender roles are good or bad for another day.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 10:44 PM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Okay, sure. There's an arbitrary ideal that men meet or don't meet to various extents. In response, they change their behaviors to be that ideal from what they would otherwise want to do, often to the point where the pursuit of that desired ideal leads to personal pain and negative social outcomes. If that's not toxic, we might as well throw away all use of the word toxic when it comes to describing any gendered behavior.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 10:42 PM
5	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Suppose I went through an effort to show a study that higher income and greater height leads to disproportionate dating success for straight men compared to gay men. Would you take that as a way to describe different trends in what gay men like compared to what straight women like?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 10:31 PM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Does "improve his league" mean anything more here than "be more masculine"? Revealing that internalized misogyny, again. Plenty of men have personalities that would be highly desirable if they were women or gay men, but the fact that they're straight men makes it unattractive. That's gender policing right there and has all kinds of negative personal and social outcomes.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 10:19 PM
11	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. you are free to opt out of dating That's true of any interpersonal gender conflict, though. You could just as well tell a woman "just deal with it or opt out" if she's frustrated with an inequitable division of household labor or systemic prioritization of male sexual pleasure over women's. But "just deal with it and stop whining" is the path to cynicism and toxicity when the way of dealing with it is to turn into Andrew Tate. you clearly find them to be vapid, shallow, hypergamous gold digging …	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 10:12 PM
5	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. The critique is deeper than that, though. Women's idealized masculinity isn't "mainstream"; it applies to a type of man radically outside the mainstream (rich; tall; ripped). Even though that man exists far outside the mainstream, he still does much better than someone inside the mainstream, let alone someone as far outside the mainstream in the opposite direction.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 09:49 PM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Being more masculine isn't "improvement," and the fact that you think it is indicates some problematic internalized thought patterns. What you're saying is basically "if men want to do better dating, they have to become more masculine." Which is exactly the point: men adopt toxic masculinity in response to female desires.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 09:47 PM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Well, I think it's not in line with reality to think that single women in the 1950s did not face gender policing from partners and potential partners. Or even today.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 09:28 PM
1	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Who said anything about "entire identity"? The point is that the choices men make are influenced by women's preferences, to varying degrees. It's significant, and there's a reason gay men have a far wider willingness to make choices that are contrary to gender roles than straight men are.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 09:27 PM
4	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Again, that doesn't mean there's not a trend of women preferring taller men and, as a result, men being more likely to mutilate their body in a dangerous, toxic procedure in hopes of achieving more success dating by conforming more to masculine gender norms. There are general tendencies women have in sexual preferences, and men change their behaviors in response to those tendencies. That is a significant part of how the male gender role is constructed.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 09:15 PM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. So, prior to choosing to get married, women faced no gender policing from partners or potential partners?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 09:02 PM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. And women in the 50s also had a choice of partners; the hard part was finding one who didn't enforce gender roles on her. That drove women to mold their personalities to match some kind of imaginary Ideal Woman, which reasonably created lots of anger around being forced to fit into a particular, very small box.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 08:58 PM
3	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Bi men are probably more popular with bi women. Which is irrelevant. Biphobia is common among even bi women, as an aside. But the fact that you can point to a particular subset of women who are open to something doesn't mean their aren't strong incentives to conform to gender norms. There's a reason something like four times as many women as men identify as bi. Same with the ibanker example. The existence of women who prefer the opposite of the general preference is not in question; but they are…	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 08:50 PM
1	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Because they have choices. Would you say that men didn't enforce any gender roles in women in the 1950s through their desires and mate choices?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 08:42 PM
9	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Yes; thinking women who have a long sexual history are somehow "dirty" and unworthy of a relationship is a form of gender policing. Individual preferences are fine, but when they all correlate with one another it creates a gender boundary for the preferred traits. You've got to look at things systemically and structurally.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 08:09 PM
15	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. how is it policing if no woman is enforcing it directly? no one is forcing you to change your personality in order to have sex with women. Suppose we lived in a world where men refused to date women who had a job outside the home and required partners to never question or disagree with him. Would that be a form of gender policing? what about when men pick on other men whom they deem to be easy targets? is that not gender policing to you? It is. men have standards for women, too, ... so all this …	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:55 PM
10	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. This isn't about individual women but statistical trends. You're asking me to write up a straw (wo)man for you to knock down. I can point to some of those statistical trends, though. Is a man who identifies as bi going to be more or less successful with women than an otherwise identical man who identifies as straight? What about a teacher vs an investment banker?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:45 PM
7	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Are you claiming that it's inherently impossible to state or describe differences in traits that tend to be more attractive in gay dating than straight dating?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:42 PM
2	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. I'm making purely descriptive statements here, as did the OP. We're in agreement that if you want to date women, an effective strategy is to adopt more masculine traits. That's a manifestation of gender policing, regardless of its effectiveness.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:40 PM
10	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. It's a form of gender policing that pushes men to change perfectly good personalities to fit into a box, even if it's contrary to their desires or genuine self.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:18 PM
6	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Do you agree that there are personality traits that women find unattractive in men that, say, gay men would find neutral or attractive in other men?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:15 PM
13	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. You need to keep in mind that women are human beings that have individual agency. Reducing them to automatons who are simply reactive to their environment is demeaning.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 07:05 PM
17	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. "Your life will be harder if you don't fit into a gendered box" is the definition of enforcing toxic gender norms.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 06:58 PM
19	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Women aren't a monolith, but that doesn't mean that there aren't trends. If 90% of women like a particular gendered social presentation, that enforces a gender norm. What kind of question is that, of course you can The point is that someone can simultaneously have good self esteem and be confident but still be dinged for not being "confident" in the sense that's relevant to women's attraction.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 06:57 PM
28	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. You're just offering a convoluted way of saying that men should respond to gender policing by molding their personalities toward a masculine personality that's not their genuine self. That's a pretty big component of toxic masculinity. Whether women can change it or not is debatable, but it doesn't change the central point that female preferences enforce masculine gender norms.	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 06:51 PM
8	Most women's gendered expectations of men are toxic, and it helped to form the manosphere into what it is today. Are women usually attracted to twinky men with relatively "feminine" personalities? Is it possible for someone to have a feminine personality but still have confidence and self esteem?	/r/PurplePillDebate	27/05/23 06:48 PM
8	What would a Red Pill alternative from a leftist perspective look like? Treating TRP charitably, it simply states "women like masculine men; here are some ways to be more masculine and improve your success in dating." Also a lot of other nonsense, but that's the most compelling portion of it. And in itself it's apolitical; there's nothing really anti-left there. You don't even need anything like evolutionary psychology, as women's preference for masculine men may well be socially constructed. So why does the Left have such a virulent reaction to that observation? Ge…	/r/PurplePillDebate	24/03/23 07:15 AM