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View 1 post and 1,525 comments by Eblademonk on TheRedPill subreddit and various other subreddits related to The Red Pill community.
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Upvotes Title Category Author Subreddit Date (UTC)
1

DiscussionEblademonk/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 05:15 PM
Showing the 1,000 most recent of 1,525 comments.
Upvotes Comment on Subreddit Date (UTC)
–

Those situations are a part of a relationship, but their frequency is variable. There's a degree of frequency of obligation that turns them from manageable, to irritating, to utterly draining. Moving from one category of frequency to the next is not a necessary feature of all relationships.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 06:46 PM
–

Adulting is something you do when it is necessary. Constructing more situations where it is necessary is the imposition.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 06:29 PM
–

Relationships require collaboration, and compromise, is true enough. There is, however, a limit to how far you should be expected to bend for the sake of an act of romance.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 04:36 PM
–

I'll make sure to ask with the possibility of refusal on the table in either case. I respect my partner's ability to express discomfort in either arena, and typically don't go out of my way to make them uncomfortable for someone else's benefit.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 04:34 PM
–

Do you do nice things with the expectation of nothing in return, or with the expectation that you'll feel good about yourself for making your friends happy?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 04:29 PM
–

And I clarified what makes a given task bullshit upon being asked. Adulting is one thing, imposed adulting is a different problem entirely.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 04:28 PM
–

Contentless rhetoric? Do you have anything substantial to add?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 04:44 AM
–

Gaslighting is when you make someone question their perception of reality by duplicitously claiming that their perception of events is flawed. It is not gaslighting to remind an interlocutor of a premise they asserted, for example "inceldom is voluntary unless you lower your standards," and pointing out the obvious flaw of that claim- that being that standards can never be lowered enough to justify incelibacy.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 02:24 AM
–

I think there's a class of people in this server specifically who react to their arguments being called stupid as if they're the ones being insulted. It's an annoying landmine to navigate, so I generally don't put forth the effort.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 02:21 AM
–

Either way, they're doing something to get something else in exchange, be it pleasure or escape from pain.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 12:56 AM
–

I'm of the opinion that altruism doesn't exist for similar reasons, but more pragmatically I would say that most simping accusations are mostly shorthand for people complaining about a perceived marginal return on investment for prosocial behaviors. The idea that being a good person feels good is... foreign, when doing good feels like it's more work than pleasure.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 12:38 AM
–

So you get something in return
/r/PurplePillDebate19/08/26 12:03 AM
–

This looks like an incredibly difficult needle to thread, made only harder by the level of justified animosity from both parties.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 11:37 PM
–

You're getting something in return, a personal sense of validation.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 11:32 PM
–

Then you're not simping?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 11:25 PM
–

That's a fairly complacent argument.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 08:30 PM
–

Ugh, now im in a real bind. Do I mansplain the social function of mansplaining, or abide your complicity in maintaining harmful social structures?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 07:34 PM
–

The right, kind, and moral thing to do is to remind him that he's as unbound by the structures of patriarchy that you are, even if you're grateful for the courtesy. If he doesn't make a big deal out of being courteous, that's fine, but as one who knows, you hold an obligation to educate the ignorant
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 07:23 PM
–

Does this culture have no immoral features worth interrogating?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 06:36 PM
–

I mean, the expectation of chivalry in women is mechanically identical to the entitlement to the benefits of patriarchy in men. If the expectations you grew up with shaped you, at what age should you take some personal responsibility for how you remain shaped by those expectations? If men are expected to change with the world, it stands to reason that women should too.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 06:34 PM
1

Also true. That would be pretty fortunate indeed
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 05:00 PM
1

Presumably there exist Relationships wherein such conduct is infrequent, as opposed to constant.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:52 PM
-2

Making nice with an asshole bestie so your partner isn't forced to play moderator.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:43 PM
-2

Hosting family, appeasing friends, extending courtesy beyond the boundaries of your immediate relationship, schmoozing coworkers, expending your social battery for the sake of your partner's social or professional development, the list goes on.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:33 PM
-1

No I didn't?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:22 PM
-2

You asked a question, I just answered it.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:16 PM
–

What a delightful hyperbole.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:14 PM
–

You've changed the argument from "bitching about stupid shit," to "bitching stupidly about shit," Why? Was it that hard to say "no, loneliness isn't stupid," Or are you just really eager to describe some correct way to process that feeling?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:13 PM
-9

Because they all read like bribes, and are usually immediately followed up with a request for me to put up with some flavor of bullshit. If you associate the gifts with the unpleasant work that they're supposedly gratitude for, then it's difficult to see them as good things.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:10 PM
-5

"Doing nice things with the expectation of nothing in return," is simping. Showing appreciation to a partner or spouse is different from flattering them simply because they are your partner or spouse.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:08 PM
–

This reads like an argument for duplicity.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:02 PM
–

Is loneliness stupid?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 04:00 PM
–

This doesn't seem like the space to discuss any kind of negative feedback loop, especially if the response of disillusionment is going to be interpreted as "you were always a jerk if you thought sex was a reward for good behavior."
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 03:58 PM
–

What would be sufficient evidence that guys complaining about assholes finding romantic success don't want pretty privilege? This seems like another flattening of a complex grievance into a black-and-white narrative about how the world functions, and typically those are too shallow to be a useful analysis of any situation.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/08/26 03:54 PM
1

There's a difference between being biology and gender, sure, but there is a problem in deliberately conflating them, especially when transition is involved. Even pre-transition, it's not like transwomen have "male brains" in most cases, because a man's brain typically wouldn't experience dysphoria in reaction to one's self-perception. It is a complicated issue, but there is no real utility in flattening Man and Woman to the categories of Male and Female, especially in a world where not all human…
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 10:17 PM
1

I agree. Most social work typically agrees that facilitating the development of a client system is done best without blame or condemnation. Knowing why something happens is valuable, but there is very little utility in assigning blame to the client when one's goal is feasibly to prevent more harm from befalling them.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 09:04 PM
1

No. What happened, how can this be prevented?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 08:37 PM
1

The best social outcome is to support those who are injured, and equip them to avoid injury in the future
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 08:35 PM
2

That's also a false binary. It's possible to support someone and evaluate the decisions that resulted in harm.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 08:33 PM
2

Uh... that feels like a false binary
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 08:04 PM
2

Women aren't acting better by exercising more discernment though. You're asking them to be more cynical of people, which isn't a strategy I can support.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:34 PM
3

Dude. Shame doesn't discourage shameful behavior, it encourages people to hide their shame. That's a very bad precedent to establish if you're trying to reduce the amount of harm done in the world.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:29 PM
3

But what is the outcome of that choice? A world where everyone laughs at people for being dumbasses isn't a world with less fools.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:25 PM
3

That's not what he said though
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:23 PM
4

This is particularly unempathetic. Why laugh at someone suffering?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:21 PM
0

I agree.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:03 PM
3

Maybe multiple things are true at once?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 06:25 PM
2

"Women are toxic when they ignore all signs of men being toxic and face violence as a result of that willfulness," is more accurate to OP's position, I think
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 05:59 PM
9

I'm not sure "men are willing to fuck anyone, and date almost anyone," is a scathing indictment of men's romantic pickyness.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:56 PM
9

Doesn't that deviate from your initial premise? That men won't date whatever's put in front of them?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:50 PM
11

Your entire argument hinges on generalities. I'm not going to litigate every individual relationship to see if the couple is dating someone because they're average. People date within what's available to them.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:31 PM
11

If the average woman is acceptably irksome, wouldn't that make them well within the dateable options for a man looking for such an average partner? More to the point, does being dateable immediately translate to being wifeable?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:17 PM
11

What evidence would disprove this premise? Do you need to see the average guy's relationship outside the boundaries of this server? Would you change your opinion on this premise if someone presented research on the typical range of partners men tend to pursue? What would it take for your opinion to be changed here?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:10 PM
2

Why are women the arbitrators of real manhood?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:06 PM
0

Wtf is a lesser male?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:04 PM
9

There's a second sentence missing from this quote which would provide more meaningful context.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:04 PM
10

I'm neither sealioning nor gaslighting you when I point out how flawed your assessment of this post or the environment around it is. I'm pointing out that the vast majority of comments on this post are deliberate enough to have a rational argument attached to them.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 03:00 PM
1

Where did he say criticizing men who aren't honest with themselves is sexist?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 02:56 PM
5

Just like I continue to miss the people in this thread crashing out like toddlers over a premise they seem perfectly fine disputing rationally. Maybe we both have blind spots here.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 02:54 PM
5

Are there a lot of personal attacks under this post?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 02:51 PM
6

This is neither generic criticism, nor is it being refuted via flailing about like toddlers. Take a moment to read literally any other thread where the arguments of the post are being engaged with.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 02:49 PM
7

There are currently 12 threads under this post, and this is the only one not offering anything even vaguely resembling a cogent rebuttal of Lilith's point. After a certain length of consistent behavior, one has to wonder why this kind of deliberately inflammatory content is seen as acceptable.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 02:48 PM
36

Are most women bitches or nags?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 02:38 PM
1

Are you of the opinion that islamaphobes all have an irrational fear or hatred of muslims, perchance?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:29 AM
1

You're free to draw that conclusion, but it doesn't really engage with the premise that constructing a social category that confines people to the spaces they don't chose themselves is an act of transphobia.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:24 AM
1

Right. Let's try this a different way, using your argument. Blackpilled people don't exist. There are only people who have and have not experienced romantic success.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:05 AM
1

You understand how this is transphobic, right?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 07:02 AM
1

Then why deliberately construct a social category which excludes them? What rational reason exists to do so?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 06:55 AM
1

Phobias are irrational fears or hatred. Psychologically speaking, Phobias are a compulsive terror response to specific stimuli, but there aren't many psychologists in this subreddit weighing in.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 06:21 AM
–

Yes.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 05:50 AM
–

By definition they cannot act otherwise. Anything adults do is something grown-ups do.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 12:43 AM
–

All adults are grown ups.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/08/26 12:34 AM
1

That raises another question about what would be a more holistic analysis of this situation?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 11:56 PM
–

Are we calling out complaints or not complaining here?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 11:10 PM
–

Why should it be that way?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 11:09 PM
–

Is the societal pressure to be a good person stronger or weaker than the societal pressure to be a real man?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 10:14 PM
–

Grow up in this context is a very funny choice of words. Adults are not exactly the paragons of self-discipline and emotional restraint this argument would suggest.
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 10:12 PM
1

If you're defining man as male, then by definition you're excluding all non-male men from the category.
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 07:13 PM
1

Yeah. I have a decent amount of respect for many of them.
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:57 PM
1

Right. I should've been more concise. "Why does the argument being the argument if an asshole make the argument irrational," seems like it would've taken the better part of my evening to explain
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:56 AM
12

Is insecurity the only possible reason for fear?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:40 AM
14

Yeah. That's why I asked.
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:38 AM
21

Why is this being framed as a male insecurity crisis?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:37 AM
1

And what was my question when that rebuttal was presented?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:27 AM
1

You'll notice that the rebuttal you chose wasn't "most men would think that argument is bullshit," but instead "this argument doesn't actually work." Do you see why one of those rebuttals is more rational than the other?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 01:04 AM
1

Did I say "he's prioritizing men's self-interest," or "he's conducting an argument wherein it is rational for men to value their self-interest?"
/r/PurplePillDebate16/08/26 12:28 AM
1

When constructing a premise, the reasons for constructing that premise don't matter. I'm not sure where you got the impression I said they do. The argument itself is what matters.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 11:59 PM
1

Zero? I don't believe I ever said consulting reddit costs zero effort. I said it was comparatively less effort than the other measures presented, but thats a different claim entirely.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 10:59 PM
0

By definition, there's a degree of work that goes into pursuing all knowledge. It's a very strange claim to assume that doing both somehow isn't doing more work than picking one or the other.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 10:52 PM
-2

Librarians are dope, I agree. That said, is it easier to go to a library, ask a Librarian, follow that Librarian to a designated location, and consume the media they provide for evaluation than it is to consult a panel of 100 to 3,000 redditors on a subject statistically speaking at least one of them gives enough of a shit about to engage with? Why bother jumping through the extra hoops because some stranger online is irritated that you're not taking the correct path to enlightenment?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 10:39 PM
1

It doesn't matter what he prioritizes. The claim is what's being engaged with. That's why your rebuttal was more effective than just calling his logic the strategy of assholes.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 10:36 PM
1

Well, no. If someone is constructing a rational premise, such as "because the standards of men and women are so radically diverse, it's rational for men to prioritize their own self-satisftaction over women." Then the rational counter argument isn't "well that's a shitty thing to think." Why does it being shitty dispute its premise? Why does everyone thinking its shitty dispute its premise?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 10:14 PM
1

"If most people agree with the rebuttal the argument is invalid," is an appeal to popularity. I wouldn't call that a rational justification for invalidating OP's premise.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 10:03 PM
1

You used one guy's opinion to make a normative claim about what most people think about OP's claim. I'm not going to battle bandwagons to fight through why the threadposter's initial comment is or isn't a rational rebuttal. If the threadposter's rebuttal matters because it's representative of what most people think, then my question would still be about how logical a rebuttal is if its only justification is that most people agree with the rebuttal.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 09:38 PM
1

You replied to me. There is a difference. To the question of "what does it matter if voting to take away the rights of others is an asshole's strategy," the answer isn't "assholes are usually irrational." Usual circumstances don't matter in specific cases beyond precedent.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 09:30 PM
1

Beats the piss out of me. That wasn't what I asked about.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 09:25 PM
2

Well, no. other men calling him an asshole and disagreeing with him isn't what makes him wrong.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 09:22 PM
-1

Again, the stupidity of OP's argument doesn't preclude the arguments of assholes from being irrational. Rationality and Cruelty aren't conflicting qualities.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 09:13 PM
-1

No, I'm asking why "voting away people's rights is an asshole's strategy," matters in the context of making OP's assertions rational or irrational. Assholes can be correct or incorrect, so describing the quality of this argument as dickish doesn't really make the claim wrong.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 09:02 PM
-1

That's a much more cogent argument than "people who think like this are assholes." It still doesn't answer my question though.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:58 PM
-1

Why does this matter?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:52 PM
2

Do you not need to work to keep your job? Is employment an abstract intangible concept that requires nothing from you to maintain?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:29 PM
1

The existence of a choice is a consequence of that choice being made possible.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:28 PM
5

Metaphors are meant to communicate complex ideas with readily-understandable imagery. A bear is a comprehensible threat, you will always know where you stand with it, and that's in a lot of ways safer than being in proximity to one of the greatest liars nature has ever produced- another human being.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:26 PM
6

I think that's himbo erasure. Additionally, I think it fundamentally underestimates just how incompetent people can be when it comes to reading others or lucking face-first into their ideal relationships. There's too many variables in that equation for it to be a truth claim.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:25 PM
1

Yeah, no. These aren't verifiable claims, so I'm not going to spend my energy treating them like serious or truthful descriptors.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:23 PM
6

So any man who is able to have relationships with the women they want, by your definition, is capable of seeing through peacocks?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:21 PM
2

Then it would be prudent to avoid making claims that would open the door to you being put at risk, instead of claiming that you're some kind of secret arbiter of truth that can only offer such wisdom following a financial transaction. That's the Ur-example of a snake-oil salesman.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:20 PM
1

To be fair, it doesn't need to be rational, but it does make finding a conclusion difficult when people flinch at the first step.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:19 PM
1

Boundaries are healthy, but there's a difference between boundaries, and refusing to ground your claims because you have a bag behind them.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:18 PM
8

That doesn't answer my question then. What is "real success?"
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:16 PM
2

That's your prerogative. But I do wonder why you're in a debate server if you're not going to ground your argumentation in anything beyond subtle advertisements of your own platform. Is this a marketing thing?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:16 PM
7

So does any man who doesn't have 16 total partners, a 3 year relationship, and a 7 year relationship without having to peacock fail to meet your definition of "real success?"
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:15 PM
0

An appeal to revulsion does not a rational premise make.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:14 PM
8

How are you defining "real success," here?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:12 PM
3

Lmao. I think I can name at least three grifters who sell the secret sauce as part of their brand off the top of my head. Tate, Myron, and fuck, did Rollo have a course too? This doesn't exactly strengthen the validity of your claims so much as it reads as incredibly cultlike.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:11 PM
2

All masculinity is performative. The Redpill isn't particularly unique in that regard.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:09 PM
2

The obvious problem with this dichotomy is that You, who knows the one true path to manhood, are unwilling to explain the truth of such a belief in a world where Thousands of Grifters claim they also know the one true path to manhood, and are positively salivating to share. Not for nothing, but appeals to the transcendence of the world don't stop people from needing to sustain their very corporal forms.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:08 PM
2

What makes service an act of manliness?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:05 PM
-1

How transphobic.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:04 PM
1

What do men protect besides their couches and their PS5s? Their social standing, their access to their jobs, their connections to what few friends they consider worth fighting for, the roof over their head be it via renting or homeownership, the list goes on. The idea that men protect nothing is more than a little hyperbolic in a world where everyone needs to protect something.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:04 PM
1

What is being a man?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:02 PM
7

Being a man actually means nothing, because there's no act a man can make to prove, affirm, or justify their manliness.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 08:00 PM
7

What a delightful hyperbole. By this math, no matter how much the behavior of men improves relative to their previous conduct, they will never amount to anything. The next logical question from that premise would be "why does it matter if they improve if they will always end up doing nothing?"
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:58 PM
1

Nobody said it did, all I asked was if feminism had something to do with the ideas being discussed. Does feminism care about this conversation?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:56 PM
-1

Maybe you misunderstood my question. Does feminism hold no stake in the discussion on domestic labor?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:46 PM
2

It's unfortunate, but I also think that's a consequence of deliberately watering down education accessibility across the centuries. If more people didn't have to jump through so many hoops themselves to learn things, it would be so much easier for them to become more versed in the complex issues of the world around them. That said, sometimes it's hard to worry about the big problems when Rent's Due.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:39 PM
-1

Feminism has nothing to do with the domestic labor of housewives?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:38 PM
2

Do you know what a microcosm is? If guys wanted to have a more robust standard about the bullshit ways gendered heirarchies are being weathered down imprecisely following the advent of first wave feminism, that would be a very long, very tiring conversation for all parties involved, and at least twice in that discussion would someone say guys should make their own movement to play catch up to the ostensibly feminist idea that genders should be treated equally across the board. The existence of m…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:37 PM
1

A movement can't exactly make changes or influence a culture without individual actors working to realize those values. I'm not going to blame feminists for tarnishing the reputation of feminism or anything like that, especially when we live in a media ecosystem fighting for its life to strangle any ideology with even a nanometer of revolutionary potential in their cribs, but there's not really much utility in evaluating feminism as it disconnects from the people loudly doing the work in its nam…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:30 PM
0

For the record, I would consider the existence of corrupt lobbying groups a consequence of a democratic government being established. The intended consequences of a movement aren't all that should be included when discussing the outcomes that result from that movement's establishment. That said, I also broadly believe that feminism has been a service to society in the way it has interrogated gendered standards of being, even if the scale and application of such interrogations have been inconsist…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 07:07 PM
1

At least there's that, although it does deviate from your previous claim somewhat.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 06:54 PM
-4

A library is free, but not always readily available, nor properly equipped to efficiently lead a reader to the answers they're looking for. Besides, you didn't say "get off reddit and go to a library." Your claim was, "instead of asking strangers on reddit, you may as well go take a gender studies class." I'm just pointing out the obvious- one decision has far less barriers to access than the others.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 06:50 PM
2

How exactly do women have the ability to opt out of being viewed as tools? Being treated as a tool is one thing, but I don't think anyone has a particularly high amount of control over how they're perceived. Hell, I don't think anyone who's navigating the Job-or-Destitution can really control whether or not they're being treated like a tool, but that's waaaaaaaay beyond the scope of this premise.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 06:48 PM
-4

University isn't always free
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 06:39 PM
-2

Opt out of being viewed?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 06:38 PM
0

Point three and five are definitionally incorrect. Men can still choose to view women disrespectfully, there are just slightly more consequences today than half a century ago. Singlehood is still punished economically via the US Tax system offering incentives to file jointly. The economic downsides of being single is living bereft of that benefit, the social downsides are the myriad ways people are viewed with contempt for prioritizing their own lives over building a relationship with others. It…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 06:31 PM
2

Hold on, to recap. Did she make a claim, refuse to engage with the claim, and then mute the chat when someone else elected to interrogate it?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 05:41 PM
1

Prosocial behaviors are different from goodness. Those circles may overlap, but I'd argue that the value of goodness cannot come from prosociality if not all good behaviors are prosocial.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 05:25 PM
1

Then you're still avoiding the question. I didn't ask what the value of prosociality was.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 04:30 PM
1

Do you think prosociality and goodness are the same thing?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 04:22 PM
1

That makes community valuable. I didn't ask about community.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 04:01 PM
1

This isn't deflecting any less, Lilly. Dictionary Definitions are not the only possible ways a word can be used. It's a simple idea to grasp. People aren't lesser for engaging with language in a manner that violates your personal standards of conduct.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/08/26 02:19 AM
2

That's funny as hell actually
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 09:56 PM
1

I would be pretty impressed to find a dictionary that has the objective definition for any word.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 07:44 PM
2

Why is this a masculine trait?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 07:41 PM
2

Lmao, fair point. Although, to be fair, this particular shining example has made a habit of assuming that people's digital conduct is representative of how they conduct themselves in real life... a more cynical man might read that as a form of projection.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 07:21 PM
2

Again. Dictionaries aren't objective. Additionally, crying and sobbing about how offensive I am doesn't make your particular choices in this situation more reasonable. You're just deflecting from your own responsibility by saying "at least you're not as bad as me."
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 07:17 PM
0

Save for one particularly shining example it seems.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 07:15 PM
4

You've stepped on this landmine before. Appeals to Dictionary Definition regularly fall apart when you engage honestly with how people use words.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 05:22 PM
2

Immediately? Didn't we circle this drain already, or did you run from that conversation?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 04:02 PM
2

That's more accurate, although it raises a pretty intuitive follow-up question
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 03:20 PM
2

When you said "literally insane," Were you using "literally" literally or hyperbolically? Both claims have issues, but the burden of proof on one is much much higher.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:28 PM
3

Didn't he explain why he wouldn't?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:24 PM
1

Literally Literally or hyperbolically Literally?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:21 PM
5

What makes goodness valuable? Is it inherently valuable, or valuable for what it provides others? If the former, what makes it inherent, and if it's the latter, what is that value worth?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:17 PM
2

I'll do my grieving in private.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:58 PM
1

How many comments In this post are being shot down?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:57 PM
1

Word salad? If anything I say sounds incoherent, please don't hesitate to ask clarifying questions. Again, you're confusing "being willing to," with "wanting to," and I feel like this is greatly hampering your ability to engage with what I'm trying to illustrate here
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:18 AM
1

I also said I wanted quick enthusiastically consensual sex, which I already pointed out is impossible to obtain via manipulation. Manipulation is more for facilitating coregulation amongst friends than wooing strangers into bed.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:15 AM
1

Pop quiz, which one do you think I care about more?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:12 AM
1

No. You assumed that was my primary goal after I said it was something that would be nice to have. I feel like I was pretty clear about also valuing sincere love and connection, but you kinda buried that dialogue tree under crashing out about how I don't really have moral qualms about adjusting my conduct to assuage others.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:09 AM
1

I mean, it's a reasonable assumption to make, but it's also pretty explicitly incorrect. Manipulating someone into loving me defeats the whole "being seen and valued for who I am," subtotal, you know? They'll only ever be attached to an ever-constant, soul-draining performance. It would be like if someone loved you only for so long as you stayed in the closet. Obviously that's an unfavorable outcome.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 02:07 AM
1

Are you doing that on purpose? The deliberate conflation between "being willing to manipulate others," and "trying to figure out how to manipulate women," is kind-of a deliberate misrepresentation of my goals and values. The added point of accusing me of saying its uniquely women's collective responsibility to prevent men from becoming misogynists is also deeply strange.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:59 AM
1

I'll tell you if I figure that out, boss. My coworkers like me, and my clients haven't called me an unfeeling monster yet, so I gotta be doing something right.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:55 AM
1

This is just false. Sex workers still face legitimate social stigma in our society, so it's kinda strange to argue that slut-shaming as a cultural practice no longer exists
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:49 AM
1

I mean if I'm unable to differentiate between lying for good and lying for self-interest, it does raise the question how many people do I honestly ask for help? Why would I trust anyone if I know the only people who are trustworthy are people with motives as clear as mine? Besides, I've already got a degree in an associated field, you'd be surprised how many times "don't present sincerely," comes up when discussing professional conduct. Basically any Intro-To Counciling course valorizes a partic…
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:47 AM
1

Trying one's best doesn't make one incapable of deception. Lying is one of those basic human skills that allows people to maintain a social environment. Manners, formality, self-restraint, deliberate language choices, omission, society couldn't run if nobody exercised these really elementary engagement skills. Besides, I'm not grilling you for withholding advice right now, I'm answering questions you've asked about my opinions on earnest prosocial engagement.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:40 AM
1

Absolutely. I said it was something I was willing to do, not something I'm going to do at every opportunity. Its a tool, not a compulsion. Would you be more willing to give advice to someone who said they weren't willing to manipulate you? Because I'd find that about as suspicious as someone saying they weren't a liar.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:34 AM
1

Because they're by definition more honest than anyone who says they aren't okay with manipulating people to get what they want. Someone who says "I'd never tell a lie," before stapling a smile on their face for the next eight hours of customer service work is still lying their ass off. I'm just cognizant of what I'm willing to do and where my lines are.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:26 AM
1

Do you think I don't recognize this? I'm okay with manipulation so long as I get what I want, and a lot of the time what I want is an earnest, willing, and enthusiastically consensual encounter. Logically, this means I should refrain from using things that would interfere with someone's ability to consent, no? I'm not just gonna walk the streets and gaslight my way into someone's bed, that's revolting.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:16 AM
1

Yeah, no. I don't buy that last premise. Ethical and consensual sex that is readily available for engagement is a reasonable desire to possess, it's only problematic in my view when one is willing to harm others to pursue it.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:09 AM
1

You confused "not like that" with "but why tho." It's an honest mistake, but the difference is critical.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:03 AM
1

No, not really. I'm still confused on the distinction between "socialization" and "manipulation." Besides, you said that giving genuine advice fails because guys don't listen. I'm actively listening to you, and you're saying that that's a disqualification because I'm willing to manipulate others? I'm a bit of a strange case to generalize towards all men.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 01:00 AM
1

I mean, people are essentially free to do what they want, but I was brought up on the idea that all's fair in love and war. Manipulation isn't super different from any other form of socialization to me, especially when so much of my socialization requires a minimum level of artifice to simply not be outgrouped for being the wrong type of minority in any given space.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:55 AM
4

Women are about as trustworthy as anyone else, and they at least have personal experience with what they like.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:50 AM
1

That's true. A lot of guys definitely want a get laid quick scheme. Myself included. That doesn't mean those same guys, again myself included, aren't interested in cultivating a space where they will find people compatible with their interests and overtime build a network of friendships which could build into something more consistently intimate. Those are two different wolves, and they're perfectly capable of coexistence.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:49 AM
1

I agree that plenty of times it's been shot down. That's about 45 degrees from any time it's been presented it has been shot down.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:46 AM
1

On persuading their peers to turn away from incel/redpill/manosphere spaces. Guys are infamous for being able to stop the spread of misogyny in their peers, right?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:43 AM
1

Why should men trust a movement that not even women trust in a media environment determined to make that movement look as rabid as possible? The first thing most people learn about feminism is the idea that it has gone too far before being forced back into whatever dead-end job they're doing to make ends meet. I wouldn't expect anybody to dig through that pile in order to find love when plenty of people have done just as well or better without it.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:42 AM
1

And men have historically done so much better on that front lmao.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:40 AM
1

Wouldn't you like to know. All things being equal, people aren't lab projects, and doing research like its possible to game the equation of romance is practically step one of stepping into the PUA-Redpill-Blackpill pipeline. It's not necessarily laziness to start that journey without consulting women, but historically the end result of that path hasn't quite been to the liking of ladies worldwide.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:37 AM
1

Do you know how survivorship bias works? If any man intrigued by these spaces gets a paradigm-shifting conversation from their mom, or an order sister puts the end-result of those beliefs in perspective, or a girl friend expresses a measure of earnest concern that does manage to dissuade such a man from falling down the pipeline, what report will be made about such a non-incident?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:32 AM
9

To contribute positively to this sentiment, I think one of the most valuable skills someone can cultivate is an unshakable belief in possibility. You have to believe that your risks can work out, or you can very easily con yourself out of taking them altogether.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:29 AM
2

Of course not. It's society's responsibility to make sure that nobody falls through the cracks into antisocial ideological camps. Women are, when last I checked, part of that society. You don't have to do anything, but refusing to intervene is not all that different from abiding whatever consequences follow.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:27 AM
3

The problem is that both camps are used to pirates waving white flags. There aren't exactly rules of engagement for parlay in this environment. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, mind you, but you're gonna have to walk a road before people associate you with even a bare minimum standard of decency or honest engagement efforts.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:25 AM
1

How does that map to your first point about any advice that would be given being immediately shot down?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:24 AM
2

My money is on battlescars from the gender wars.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:21 AM
2

So is OP one of the men in this server looking to shoot down advice out of hand because women simply aren't willing themselves into loving him?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:19 AM
5

I'm just trying to take inventory of how many books are written by the exact kinds of morons you don't want people outsourcing their critical thinking to. Telling people to figure that shit out themselves is a recipe for far more people buying a Hustler's University subscription than picking up a copy of "the will to change."
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:16 AM
0

Does that include OP?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:14 AM
2

Ah yes, maybe picking up a copy of "why women deserve less," or "think like a man," will have the answers...
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:13 AM
1

Why would that be the case?
/r/PurplePillDebate14/08/26 12:12 AM
1

I don't care to "look better," Lily. Your opinion isn't worth begging for. I want you to recognize your obnoxious habit of reading what people say, and getting offended by your own thoughts instead of engaging with the ideas discussed. It would be nice to hear you recant a single premise you've ever made, but your brand at this point is truly thirty-one flavors of deflection. You can't even admit that "immediately bringing up CSA," is your flawed recollection of an exchange which has defined eve…
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 08:34 PM
1

You fully forgot the three comments directly above mine, which really do serve to illustrate how patient I was in refusing to bring up the worst possible extreme. Either way, the fact that you directly quoted me saying the same thing in two different ways illustrates that I certainly didn't escalate "immediately."
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 07:32 PM
6

To be fair, feminism did tear already present gaps in patriarchal reasoning so much wider than they'd have been otherwise. That doesn't make it a bad thing, because previous historical conditions have been buns, but it does mean that feminism's cultural momentum does have a part to play in the present state of affairs.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 07:19 PM
5

Oh thank fuck for this comment
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 07:09 PM
1

You really don't remember how that conversation went, huh?
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 06:31 PM
5

Being appreciated and being prosocial are different things. Being appreciated for what I've done is not feeling good for doing something.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 04:44 PM
4

It doesn't feel particularly good to be prosocial. That shit gets exhausting fast.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 04:33 PM
2

Do you understand the difference between an injustice and a precedent? If your argument is "incels don't lower their standards enough to be incels," then the logical question to that premise is "how low do one's standards have to be?"
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 04:00 PM
2

I'm not going go shoot your red herrings just because they feel relevant to you. I'm too employed to waste that much time. Telling men to lower their standards with no clear endpoint in sight, or to lower their standards until they'll take anyone, do anything, is only one moral barrier away from actual criminality.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 03:44 PM
2

You're doing that thing again where you confuse words and get upset at your own conclusions.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 02:48 PM
2

It is morally reprehensible, that's kinda the endpoint of the "lower your standards," conversation. But again, there's a baseline level of rhetorical competence in the ability to recognize an idea without agreeing with it. I'd worry for Anyone who can't tell the difference.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 02:32 PM
2

And that's another delightful assumption about what someone does and doesn't realize. It's an incredibly imprecise assumption, but I feel like anyone who's dedicated twelve hours of their day to claiming that motivated reasoning is one of the great issues entitled men face should recognize when they're filling in the gaps of context with their own prejudices, no? It would be like if someone assumed "a possible solution" to a problem is "the best solution to a problem."
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 02:19 PM
7

Sure. But fucked up people with intrusive thoughts are still capable of existing as different people in different social contexts. It's not like such a person is just giddy at the thought of unloading their dark and tragic backstory to whatever petulant child screeches into a debate server. Especially when such a child seems incapable of interacting honestly with even the most mild of hypotheticals. That's just poor rhetorical hygiene.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 02:05 PM
12

The hypocrisy is coming off of this in waves. I think the most reasonable rebuttal here is to ask how much of this spiel is your real-world conduct, because you seem to be convinced that people act the same in this environment as they do in every other space they occupy.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 01:58 PM
1

That's a limit in your perception, not my ability.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 01:01 PM
0

I wouldn't make such a claim about all, or even most men. But more to the point, that would only define niceness as an unnecessary condition to attraction, so it really is somewhat inconsistent advice to offer when someone is looking for a practical, actionable path to success.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 08:07 AM
2

I can think of five guys right now who would like a woman who's genuinely nice to them. Hell, at least three of my friends lost friends because they misinterpreted kindness as attraction. There are a few premises here that aren't 100% accurate.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 08:01 AM
0

I think this conversation would be significantly more productive if you could tell the difference between a Theoretical Solution, and a Practical one. For example, if someone looking to find love in their life theoretically agreed that they should lower their standards, then how far should those standards be lowered to ensure success?
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 07:59 AM
1

A good coping mechanism wouldn't make the world easier to deal with, it would just make me better at dealing with the world. I have plenty of coping mechanisms to that end.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/08/26 07:56 AM
2

Well, no. Now you're saying it isn't just a matter of putting forth effort, it's a matter of putting forth specific kinds of effort, and being willing to concede to certain outcomes as a result of that effort.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 03:12 AM
2

Why are we suddenly qualifying the effort now?
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 03:00 AM
1

So guys who can't effortlessly embody masculinity should start lying
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 02:37 AM
1

Yeah, don't get me wrong, there's absolutely a limit. I just think knowing that limit requires more personalized assessments than broadly declaring pornography a bad thing
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 02:07 AM
1

So my question becomes- if masculinity is attractive, should the unmasculine adopt the performance of masculinity in order to pursue partners?
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:58 AM
1

You guess? I mean, I Guess it's possible to be sincerely masculine in the eyes of whoever's defining the word, But I doubt such genuine performance is possible for everyone.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:53 AM
5

What a delightfully falsifiable claim. All I need to do is know one decent man who's spent his entire life putting in effort only to fall short every time. Lucky for me, I have plenty of examples to draw from.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:46 AM
1

Noticeably, it doesn't seem like the director is the only one making that reduction in this discussion.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:31 AM
5

It's very funny that you went out of your way to read a critique of your position, and then claim that critiquing you is defending bitter men on the internet. Those are two separate activities, and conflating them shows, wouldn't you know it, the same sort of motivated reasoning you're claiming men are doing.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:26 AM
2

People are- or I guess I should say women do seem to love pretending their words are utterly bereft of subtext.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:20 AM
2

Because making the conversation about men means that there's a level of exclusivity to be detangled from the premise. The idea that "men," are bad at something carries the underlying sentiment that "uniquely men," are bad at something. Especially in an environment where gendered dynamics are practically baked into the substrate of what this server is designed to discuss. Nobody here has the sort of accumulated goodwill for me to assume they're not chomping at the bit to start the next wave of ge…
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:17 AM
2

What is masculine?
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:11 AM
2

Are guys supposed to lie in order to get what they want?
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 01:00 AM
1

Obviously an overstimulation of our chimp brains and nervous systems? I'm not sure this is true from first principles, and I'm definitely not certain that it would be a bad thing even if it were true. Like, imagine someone saying salt overstimulated our chimp brains by exposing us to flavors we should never have accessed.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:38 AM
2

You framed the discussion like it's a gendered issue, and then blame me for treating the conversation like it's a gendered issue? When you say "a lot of men struggle to reflect," instead of "a lot of people experience difficulty here," it's not exactly a long jump to be wary of that structure, especially in this environment.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:34 AM
7

That's why I asked for clarification. I'm not trying to draw conclusions about what you meant. You said that men are bad at a specific thing, and I wanted to clarify if that was a man-specific point of failure, or an agendered phenomenon.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:23 AM
5

And women are more trustworthy in their assessments and intervention?
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:15 AM
1

You asked what the value of identity signifiers are, and then asked what the digression you wanted has to do with anything? Do you want me to argue your point for you too?
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:06 AM
1

Lmao fair point.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:05 AM
1

I'd assume such a sense of manhood is valuable to one's identity as a man. In my case at least I'm defined by what I do and don't have in common with others of similar identities.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:03 AM
1

It's worth considering, but if we devolve completely into fantasy I'll just forgo women entirely and pursue euthanasia via succubus.
/r/PurplePillDebate12/08/26 12:02 AM
1

And all of those factors are calculable.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:58 PM
1

Like I said, Toxic Masculinity is foiled by nothing. Nontoxic Masculinity is indistinguishable from basic human decency, and every human can be basically decent. There is nothing inherently manly about it, and no manhood to aspire towards within its confines. So when asking people to stop toxic Masculinity, the world beyond that has no defining attributes of manhood. There's nothing inherently masculine on the other side.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:55 PM
1

So you want men to abandon toxic masculinity as a framework for... nothing? Just the oblivion of being a "good person?"
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:53 PM
1

Humanity is not infinitely complex. We are vastly complex, but not unquantifiably so. If that were the case, no human reaction would ever be within our capacity to anticipate.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:51 PM
1

Oh thank fuck, a Praxis V Catharsis conversation. I live for these.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:50 PM
–

Oh thank fuck, a Praxis V Catharsis conversation. I live for these.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:49 PM
2

I didn't ignore you though. I appreciate your honesty, and intend to keep looking. Even if the answer never emerges in my lifetime, maybe one of my species will pierce this horrifying veil of ignorance and find the master key for interpersonal relationship dynamics.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:48 PM
1

What qualities of Aragorn exist uniquely within men to emulate? Why can't women also aspire to this being?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:46 PM
2

I agree. You gave the correct answer. I'm going to keep looking for a more correct answer.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:45 PM
1

What qualities of Aragorn are manly? For that matter, what makes Gandalf a man?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:43 PM
1

Yeah, I can see how that ambiguity would be infuriating. I'll keep looking for a better answer than that.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:42 PM
1

What is masculinity? If you take the toxicity away, and we've fully moved into some glorious post-patriarchy, what then is manhood? What is uniquely manly in a world beyond the standards of previously-entrenched gendered scripts? What makes the non-toxic man a man?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:37 PM
–

And the idea that it "just be a good person," is satisfactory advice for bridging the gap between being oneself and the boundless, dare I say infinite, different things people can be into is the most insidious cope imaginable.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:35 PM
1

That there is no working alternative to toxic masculinity. The discussions in that arena cannot meaningfully construct a vision of masculinity that neither depends on the harmful stereotypes of toxic masculinity- nor produces a vision of manhood which is singular and distinct enough to serve as an identifier of what makes a "good man," as opposed to a "good person." So when people say "toxic masculinity needs to go," and it does, there's going to be more than a little resistance to the idea of a…
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:32 PM
0

The issue with this premise is threefold. The first problem is the presumption that specifically feminist women are selfish to the point of not caring about the well-being of their partners. Having boundaries and a self-image isn't quite the same as having zero regard for others.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:18 PM
14

It is a pretty concise answer to the question of "who is telling these guys this shit," isn't it?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 11:09 PM
0

Why does it make for a bad GF/Wife/Hookup etc?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:59 PM
6

And it is reasonable to do everything in your power to fight probability.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:35 PM
7

That's a gorgeous red herring. Did you have an actual point?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:35 PM
1

I agree. Like I said, porn has many problems, but shockingly few of those problems are the porn itself.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:32 PM
6

And the rest are reasonable to be frustrated when it fails
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:28 PM
8

A general answer is useful. This isn't.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:25 PM
12

It's good advice for everything except the question being asked it looks like
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:21 PM
1

Exactly. And I believe most people recreating porn in their bedroom are acting out of ignorance
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:17 PM
9

If just being a decent fuckin dude isn't a workable answer, then why present it?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:13 PM
1

Everybody gets embarrassed. There's nothing masculine about basic emotional regulation.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:11 PM
1

Looks like it
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 10:00 PM
1

I didn't ask if it was normal though. I asked what makes it manly. What is manly about getting embarrassed?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:59 PM
12

If the closest possible advice is going to be incorrect, then the better answer in all cases is "there's no correct answer to this question." Does it cost more effort to sit with someone struggling than to stand on your pedestal and offer advice that is fully incomplete?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:58 PM
1

For the same reason I wouldn't blame wrestling for a kid trying to use a V-trigger in their first actual fight, I'm not gonna blame pornography for virgins trying to recreate their only experience with sexuality in a real context.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:55 PM
5

More vague than "just be normal and have emotions?"
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:04 PM
1

Fair enough. Here's hoping you have a good time.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:03 PM
1

What does it depend on?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:02 PM
39

If a guy asks how he can get women, which is a rife premise on its face, and a woman answers with "Just be a decent fuckin dude," then the logical conclusion to draw is "being a decent fuckin dude will help this guy get women," That's not motivated reasoning, that's basic inference.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:02 PM
1

This is a common route in the Babylon post. Illustrations of hypocrisy aren't engaged with honestly.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 09:00 PM
0

What is being a normal dude, and what makes such actions masculine?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 08:59 PM
1

I agree that most people are seeking porn for gratification. The problem I'm discussing is them using their only source of information on erotic conduct as a manual when education would easily curtail that mistake. Blaming people for treating porn like it's real is a problem of too few real examples of what sex is like, not the problem of porn itself.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 08:51 PM
1

And current data indicates that the immediate problem of porn as an industry, if we're not engaging with the problem of industry, is that it's more readily available than even the most shallow efforts of Sex Education. That's a problem far more fixable than simply wondering if anything would change if more robust measures were implemented.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 08:07 PM
1

Why is porn obviously just bad?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 08:01 PM
1

To know, empirically, and without a single confounding variable, that Porn is directly responsible for the harms associated with Problematic Porn Usage.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 08:01 PM
1

I agree that there's use in such exploration, absolutely. I'm just more wary of anyone concluding the equation is solved when we haven't even finished removing the variables.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 07:57 PM
5

The presence of a romantic partner likewise has been proven to significantly improve the life expectancy of men. This isn't a situation wherein friendship provides some unique benefit.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 06:37 PM
1

My issue isn't with porn-watching. Pornography consumption in and of itself is not an issue worth interrogating. Problematic Porn Use, the exploitation emblematic of industry, the need to supplement failing education systems with obvious theatrics, these are issues I see a need to intervene in, and those issues are resolved via specific intervention strategy, not crying about how pornography is some kind of inherent evil.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 06:36 PM
1

People can fall through the cracks of any intervention, that's not the fault of the intervention itself, especially when that intervention hasn't been implemented to begin with. I'm personally more of an apple juice guy than a Pepsi guy, myself, for the record.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 06:28 PM
4

Do you remember what you said when I asked why the manosphere should be universally and unobjectionably embarrassing? Or are you cozy in that bailey you've constructed about your opinions and their value
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 05:27 PM
5

So people should be embarrassed by the manosphere even if they don't care? Should they abide your position even if they're unpersuaded by it?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:43 PM
6

Why can't someone live a full and healthy life without friends?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:34 PM
5

Did you only read half of what I said? My claim wasn't solely that you were using subjective reasoning to make a normative claim about how the world should be, but that doing so will necessarily exclude any population that doesn't share your reasoning. Anybody who just can't be fucked to bother worrying about what other men are doing would have less than zero reason to follow your logic here concerning what men should feel about the manosphere. Why should anyone care?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:27 PM
5

It was still a claim to be defended
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 03:32 PM
4

You claimed something Should be happening.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 03:13 PM
3

I did. I explained that something being offensive to your sensibilities is not evidence of something being offensive in an objective, measurable sense. I feel like we're talking a bit past each other here, do you understand the difference between "i think this about people," and "i think people should be this way?"
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 02:20 PM
5

No I'm asking you to reinforce your thoughts with anything more substantial than vibes. I'm asking you to prove why your thoughts Should Be the norm.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 02:02 PM
3

Why should any man expend that much emotional energy on the manosphere? Because now this isn't just an opinion, it's a claim.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:57 PM
1

That's a deeeeeeeeply concerning belief system. And it ties in pretty neatly to conversations about what other jobs we consider expressions of moral character or intellect.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:51 PM
5

Also true. It's a pretty clever part of the mechanism that men who eschew the status and obligations of masculinity are pretty readily categorized below the objects of desire and reverence in the social hierarchy. It means that guys organizing to oppose the system as it stands have to start from a much lower position to leverage any kind of change.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:50 PM
1

A type is a luxury for people with the options to make choices for themselves.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:40 PM
1

Why is the first example in this discussion how exploitative sex work is when damn-near every modern industry is just as exploitative? What is this SWERF shenanigainry?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:40 PM
3

You called the manosphere an embarrassment to men, not personally embarrassing to watch.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:36 PM
2

That's what friends are for
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:29 PM
4

Treating someone like an ordinary human being typically means treating them like they can look out for themselves.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:24 PM
-1

Does wrestling normalize violence?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:21 PM
3

As a general rule? I need that shit to put up with the rest of the world.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:20 PM
3

Embarrassment is an inherently subjective experience. As such, any claim about what is embarrassing is a self report, not an accurate description of fact.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:18 PM
-4

The issue in this specific context isn't porn though. It's a lack of robust sex education. Guys know Porn is as fake as Wrestling.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 06:09 AM
1

By what standard are we defining "disgrace" here? Because I'm more of an interventionist when it comes to discussing why and how people develop maladaptive coping mechanisms to environmental pressures, so I don't really see the praxis in revulsion here. Is there, like, a council somewhere defining what is and isn't a disgrace to masculinity? I'd be curious to know how their value system is established, and whether or not it's adapted to the 2020s.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 06:02 AM
1

? You're making a pretty flawed accusation there. I'm just evaluating the claim, I don't share it. But on a side note, if you derived no value from engaging with strangers online, we wouldn't be having this conversation. More importantly, even if they're not throwing themselves into spaces they're not particularly well-regarded to seek validation from women, an argument exists that their conduct would still lead to the same results OP described for women growing comfortable in their position as …
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 05:58 AM
1

Anecdote isn't expertise, friend. You've only got one life to collect data from, and that's a pretty limited pool for a social species. The jury is still out on what part of dating is evolutionary biology, considering marriage isn't a biological function, and that there's still a level of cultural bleed from western hegemony to detangle from most research in that field.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 05:52 AM
4

There's a difference between respect and care. To treat someone with care is to expend energy for their sake, energy that could be spent on self-preservation or recovery. That added cost is, by definition, a burden.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 05:48 AM
4

Maybe "affectation," would be a more accurate description. You have my sympathies for being so burdened by such willful conduct.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 05:38 AM
4

It doesn't mean they are either. There's no real standard for what makes embarrassment.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 05:18 AM
–

Are both of you leaving, or is this some kind of flirtation in the place of a debate?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:57 AM
9

A gentleman is an archetype constructed downwind of the idea that it's the masculine duty to treat their lady as a subordinate or treasure. An object to be courted, coveted, and conquered. Such archetypes aren't "good," especially when they basically boil down to a list of endlessly replicable tasks that can construct a facade of compassion over clear intent of coverture.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:56 AM
3

Not really? It makes them embarrassing to men who'd be embarrassed by them, but such shame isn't exactly a universally masculine quality. Otherwise there'd be no manosphere to begin with.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:51 AM
0

I mean, I get why they're embarrassing to you. I'm not entirely sure why they are embarrassing. Those aren't quite the same thing. Do you have a reason that would make manosphere bullshit unobjectionably and universally embarrassing, or is this just a case of personal grievance justifying a position?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:47 AM
4

This seems... reductive. Men who have made it their primary habit to disagree with the hatred of other men for the explicit purpose of seeking validation from women or painting oneself as a superior option are harming women, at least by this claim, by encouraging women not to grow or change or reflect on themselves. There's a few holes in his premise, but shadowboxing isn't going to make anyone better.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:45 AM
0

Don't they?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:43 AM
3

Are standards known more for increasing access to partners, or restricting available options?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:41 AM
0

Is love slavish devotion or mutual regard? Can a white knight love if their defense is only ever of the image of a woman in the vain hope that they'll be recognized?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:39 AM
2

Why?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:38 AM
–

Seems like a reasonable trade for somebody. I can't quite wrap my head around why, but validation seems to be valued at a premium these days.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:37 AM
12

Not necessarily true. A misogynist can pay for a date just as readily as an altruist. Besides, "being" a good person is one of those vague to the point of uselessness discussions that never really goes anywhere.
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:36 AM
-2

Why is encouraging entitlement and self-centerdness a bad outcome?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 04:34 AM
1

At some point, sure. I can buy this. That does mean my next question is what exactly were your intentions here? What outcome were you trying to achieve?
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 01:15 AM
1

Why do you think I'm particularly concerned about men like me? Because I'm not going to throw up my hands and renounce feminism the moment women start organizing for their own self-interest, but you already identified the clear and present struggle of convincing the average man to see past their own immediate sense of deliberate exclusion. My concern is that the strategy of generalization is just doing the rhetorical equivalent of throwing up your hands and accepting that the people who don't bu…
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 12:45 AM
1

I'm willing to have longer conversations. I'm even delighted by the thought, because you seem like someone with really strong passions and incredibly enjoyable ideas on the subject of liberation. I'm not in the habit of picking apart every point every interlocutor makes, because that runs the constant risk of wandering off topic, which in this case is the idea that a certain demographic of men would prefer that women had no choice. I don't even disagree that there is a population of men who hold…
/r/PurplePillDebate11/08/26 12:09 AM
1

How many misogynists want to strip choice from women? Do you have the ability to conceptualize a man who hates women but believes they have the right to make choices, or do you believe such a being doesn't exist? I'm asking to gauge whether or not you have a framework for what makes men prefer for women to not have choices. This is sentence four.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 11:47 PM
1

I'm not done, and I can respond. I just think it's worth noting that you've made multiple assumptions about who I am and why I'm behaving this way when you've not once acknowledged that your own claims were imprecise or inaccurate. That said- did you mean something different from what you said?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 11:15 PM
1

I'm white and functionally illiterate? Damn, what an unfortunate life I lead.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 10:11 PM
1

It's people who object, if you support it even grudgingly you wouldn't be included. This is a false binary. It is possible to both object, and support.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 09:59 PM
1

It's you who's hopping from premise to premise. It's fully possible to grudgingly support something and have objections.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 09:42 PM
1

Oh. So your premise isn't anyone who objects. It's anyone who refuses to enthusiastically support
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 09:29 PM
1

"Men who criticize or have any issues with the metoo movement in any way would rather women be incapable of saying no" That was your premise. Not just the men who were strictly against the movement, the ones who were critical of it are included in this premise. An argument exists that even the men who are strictly against metoo, especially for reasons of praxis, preferring more direct action to a hashtag and a scant digital organization campaign, would be included in your categorization. This wo…
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 09:01 PM
9

Yes?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 08:56 PM
6

Objectively? By what metric?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 08:55 PM
1

I don't have one? I have disagreements with methodology and discipline, but overall it was a good thing to happen.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 08:53 PM
1

Because i want women to be able to say no.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 07:55 PM
1

Well yeah. I wanted to make sure I knew your position before I flatly called you incorrect. As, for example, my issues with the MeToo Movement are more technical than ideological, but I'd be included in this category of "men who would rather women be unable to say no."
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 07:04 PM
1

Men who criticize or have any issues with the metoo movement in any way would rather women be incapable of saying no?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 06:16 PM
-1

Hahahahaha. Oh this is a fantastic foil to the conversation on why guys should just pick the women who like them as opposed to the women who really like them. Good post OP, I hope it goes well.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 06:13 PM
1

Dating should be treated like everything else. Nothing should be segregated by class.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 06:09 PM
1

Is it justifiable to segregate dating by class?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 06:08 PM
1

I would like to know clearly what she thinks before I start asking why she thinks that way.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 05:00 PM
1

Men writ large? Incels specifically? Specifically blackpilled incels? There's a bit of ambiguity I'd like to remove from this premise before I start interrogating conclusions.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 04:58 PM
1

Dodging accountability by acting offended?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 03:08 PM
1

Is your motivation of "being annoyed by loud complainers," more justifiable than "being annoyed that the dating market doesn't cater to men specifically?" Because it sounds like both camps are just electing to value their own emotions over a bare minimum ability to self-regulate. It's hypocritical to demand discipline and self control from a population you can't even exercise enough self-restraint to ignore when they get under your skin.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 02:17 PM
3

Is there a single primary source on this claim?
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 12:58 AM
1

I'm not gonna judge you for choosing catharsis over praxis, but I'm definitely not holding out hope that anythings going to change with that perspective.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 12:40 AM
2

And I'm not entirely convinced this is the forum for convincing men writ large to adopt new decisions and behaviors.
/r/PurplePillDebate10/08/26 12:07 AM
1

How are you drawing this conclusion? Research, anecdote, personal bigotry? What's got you convinced that I, A Man, measure how much I'm desired by how much a woman will sacrifice her values for my sake?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:49 PM
1

We try our best here.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:45 PM
1

It's a red herring because it distracts from the central premise of this discussion. "Should men want to be desired?"
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:41 PM
1

What about the 15lb industrial-looking fap machines?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:30 PM
1

I mean, yeah. The kayfabe in that context would be the performance of putting your best foot forward, acting like the version of yourself who isn't deeply flawed in order to prove your compatibility with someone else. I see the vision, and I broadly agree with the idea that you should be able to present sincerely and be received well so long as you're not, like, an active and present threat to others. I just don't really agree that such an outcome is feasible for a sizeable population of men or …
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:23 PM
1

No. But that's a red herring.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:17 PM
1

Nah. I'm not in the habit of cooking good faith interlocutors. This is a judgement free zone
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:07 PM
3

By you?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:05 PM
1

Fill me in then.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:49 PM
1

So yes? The ignorant and erudite alike deserve to experience desire.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:44 PM
1

That's an impressive sidestep.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:43 PM
3

So is the weather- that doesn't make it exceptionally useful to complain about.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:03 PM
2

The same question follows. Are low-IQ animals unworthy of desire?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 08:59 PM
1

Why?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 08:46 PM
2

It's not literally some Neanderthal type thinking. We don't have a body of research robust enough concerning how Neanderthals think to draw that conclusion. I don't even think such thought is comparable to modern nonhuman primates, because they also construct social heirarchies to navigate. This is just a falsehood to justify being indignant.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:55 PM
2

If you love someone deeply, but do not meaningfully desire them, what is the difference between that relationship and a familial one?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:51 PM
2

Neither does being uniquely competent, or having burned so much of your life to build that level of skill. If your identity is tethered to what you can do, then you're in for a rough ride once that capacity dies out from age or injury.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:49 PM
6

Oh no, selfishness. What a new and unique evil for society to battle against...
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:48 PM
1

Hypocrisy I understand. It's a social bonding tool, like most complex prosocial lies. What bugs me the most is willful ignorance of kayfabe. People know the rules of the games of society, and they never seem to recognize that those rules, or the game, are fundamentally made up.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:47 PM
1

Women all over the world gravitate towards the traits mentioned in the OP by your perception for the same reason primitive cultures didn't have complex social structures to the archetypal European archeologist. For the same reason Loki was painted as Satan when Christians started translating Norse mythology. The viewer is staining their view with their own biases, not observing the society as it exists.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:46 PM
0

I didn't say I'm above normal people. I said they're not my type. If that's ego, then it's preferable to cowtowing to popular opinion in order to find love.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:42 PM
1

Should only the erudite experience being desired?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 07:41 PM
6

Why should anyone aspire to such a restrictive masculinity?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:39 PM
1

I'm sorry, do you know my romantic interests better than I do?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:39 PM
1

Or pedantry, which is quickly dismissed.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:38 PM
1

Sociologist
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:37 PM
1

I don't know, and my ignorance infuriates me.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:27 PM
0

Should only the erudite be loved?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:17 PM
1

May every beggar you meet know wealth.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 06:15 PM
0

I'm sorry, are women particularly fond of disagreeable men?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:54 PM
1

So does "it's the will of God," For obvious reasons, sometimes a complete explanation doesn't necessarily reflect reality.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:51 PM
1

I'm inclined to reiterate- how so?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:49 PM
4

How so?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:48 PM
4

Is this real life?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:47 PM
5

Is this real life?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:47 PM
1

We can presume they're running mate-selection software though. That's a start.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:46 PM
1

Why?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:45 PM
1

Most of the people I'm looking for possess enough contempt for the category to prefer being seen as individuals rather than slaves to the cult of averages. "Normal people," aren't my type.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:41 PM
1

Is that preference natural or manufactured? An innate human quality, or a conditioned response to living in human society? One of these we can do something about.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:39 PM
1

Every sacrifice is grand. Giving up something for someone else isn't something I take lightly in any circumstance.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:34 PM
4

My problem is very specifically emotional incongruence. I've been rejection-sensitive since before I could pronounce "Asperger's," and there's something deeply demoralizing about walking face-first into a hopeful future only to be told once, twice, five times, ten times over twenty years that nobody desires you the way you desire them. A solved equation for calculating who does and doesn't operate on my wavelength or intention would be greatly helpful.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:34 PM
0

The Bandwagon shouldn't have influence on how someone navigates their own emotional experience. Whatever normal people are up to isn't particularly relevant to this conversation, especially since normal people aren't going to desire that demographic anyways.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:31 PM
5

Don't get me wrong, I'd personally prefer a spreadsheet to the constant buzz saw to the groin which is being dragged along by my feelings, but that particular equation hasn't been solved yet.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:29 PM
3

Every expense is a financial hit. They may not be as significant as a hospital bill or the endless need for groceries, but you're only describing a difference in scale. Not in kind.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:16 PM
2

What paying for a date actually is?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:10 PM
2

"financial hit" is a bit dramatic. This is a commentary on tone
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 04:00 PM
2

We call this a catch-22 where I'm from.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:55 PM
–

Today, we're interrogating the idea of being wanted. Who would ever want to indulge in such a crass animal impulse when seeking connection with another human being-
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:55 PM
3

Sure. I can do that, so long as you're willing to engage with the ideas being presented and not whimper about the tone not being to your liking.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:51 PM
1

You mean the useful and effective capitalist leaders who have made it their life's mission to throttle any socialist economy in the cradle in order to maintain the idea that socialism doesn't work?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:50 PM
1

And "emotional labor," isn't?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:52 AM
1

And taking responsibility for those outcomes is something I support. I'm not particularly inclined to say people need to take their fucking without lube, though.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:25 AM
2

You want salmon. You wait, maybe a day, or week, or month before you realize no salmon are biting. You adjust, recognizing that maybe salmon just aren't available in this region, or that you're just not hanging out the right bait. Maybe Trout or Salmon will suffice, so you keep waiting, maybe another day, maybe another week, maybe another month or year at this rate. You're still hungry, but no trout, or salmon seem to be biting. The hunger pangs are starting to argue that maybe shrimp wouldn't b…
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:21 AM
1

Their willingness to sacrifice standards led to a relationship, which is notably a changed outcome from the lack of relationship which motivated the decision in the first place. Every pass the controller meme making the rounds these days would call that a marked improvement from laying on a couch with your dick in one hand and your standards in the other. This isn't a conversation about excusing that choice, the point is to say that it is rational to make such a choice, and still be unsatisfied …
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:07 AM
1

Which is a rational choice, and not particularly worth the energy of pitying. I've seen the Online Dating Spiral enough times to roll my eyes at the notion that guys should just accept the opportunity cost of being excluded from more pools than they can access in order to keep their standards high and principles intact. There's no winning scenario in that arena. If the options are to keep the net small, and wait for two decades, or broaden the net day by day until you're begging all of cyberspac…
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 10:02 AM
2

Is this claim about a rational idea, or your own emotional validation? Because I thought this was a discussion on how people need to accept the consequences of their actions, not how you personally would judge them for said actions.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:54 AM
3

Genuinely? I don't know about Genuinely, but I wouldn't exactly be over the moon at the prospect of making my partner feel awful at my expense. In an ideal world we'd both be having a good time, and I'm not above ignoring my own pleasure to ensure hers.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:47 AM
2

How did the claim "you need to accept the consequences of your choices," become "you're pathetic for sacrificing common sense and dignity for any woman willing to fuck you?" Rationally speaking, if someone needs to own up to their choices, there's no reason they shouldn't consider the value exchange of their dignity for a partner. Assigning some moral judgement or pity to guys crunching the numbers there seems like a recipe for a kind of elitism that makes me suspicious of this entire argument.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:44 AM
–

It's one tool of many, with comparable shortcomings to every other tool. Social proof is susceptible to being gamed social competence, which frames every social incompetent as a problem.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 09:39 AM
–

I did. It took maybe five minutes.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 08:59 AM
–

I like this post. Unfortunately, I don't trust anyone to engage with it in a manner that won't default to one of the exact same criticisms being described in the post itself.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 08:59 AM
2

Do you think thousands of deaths is a uniquely socialist outcome? Ask how many people died because USAID was discontinued, or how many factory workers died before collective bargaining put a gun to Rockerfeller's head.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:58 AM
1

Congratulations on the shortest industrialization period in human history. Not bad work.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:33 AM
2

There have been propaganda campaigns the length of your lifespan existing to shape what you like and don't like. Your limited knowledge of the USSR and Cuba are a direct example of how you've been manipulated into thinking that humanity is incapable of any form of socialized organization.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 03:11 AM
2

You never asked what I wanted to do, only what was possible. We've gaslit society into accepting any number of irrational premises about what is "natural," in our world, I'm just offering a few example mechanisms of how such a process could be turned towards other ends.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 02:56 AM
2

"Genuine want," isn't really my concern. Nobody genuinely wants to spend a third of their life in a cubicle for 40 years and then live out the rest of their days in a bland retirement, but we've pretty handedly convinced every poor sucker from the silent generation to now that's how the world works, because that's how it's been constructed. You don't need to convince someone to genuinely want something in order to convince them to accept it.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 02:14 AM
2

The same way we make people comfortable with a 12-hr workday. Or landlords. Or medical debt. Propaganda and deliberate framing.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 02:05 AM
2

I would call the provider impulse a conditioned response.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 02:01 AM
1

You're conflating "making people believe an idea," with "making people capable of an act." Do you understand the difference, or should I explain it?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:56 AM
1

The Wright brothers are rolling in their Graves with that one, friend.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:45 AM
3

Because broadly speaking, biologists and psychologists alike don't believe humans have "instincts" in the way my interlocutor is describing. There's plenty of discussions on how we develop our skills and habits from the moment of birth into our adulthood, but the vast majority of scholars on the subject categorize those skills as learned responses to stimuli. Psychologists especially will bring up the notion that the mind is designed to take in information and condition itself into certain shape…
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:44 AM
2

And that's a strawman. I said that Nature is not the be-all, end-all of the human experience, especially the social human experience, not that humanity was totally malleable in every way. Only the ways that matter.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:41 AM
2

And now we are descending into anecdote to justify a position. . . Dude, is there a rational premise in here somewhere, or are you going to default to "this is how the world works because I've never seen evidence to the contrary." Have you seen Venus of Malta?
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:24 AM
2

You're making a bet off information you can't meaningfully verify, boss. It's irrational to make a sweeping generalization from an unfalsifiable belief.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:19 AM
2

No amount of brain washing would ever make the average man want an obese woman. This is a claim that communicates downright horrifying levels of ignorance towards how beauty standards have changed from prehistory to now. I recommend looking into what ancient fertility goddesses looked like.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:07 AM
2

We don't need to genetically engineer people to want certain things. We've been doing that shit socially since before the printing press.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:04 AM
3

I know you're not a student of any biological science if you're making a claim about what human instincts are. The claim is that "nature doesn't define us if we can bend it to our will. There's a more dynamic relationship there to be engaged with."
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 01:00 AM
16

No. Women aren't a monolith, they're a swarm, and I don't have the ability to account for the eccentricities of every individual being.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 12:53 AM
4

I'm not talking about Malthas's argument. I'm talking about Jay-Z treating the word "capitalist" like it's a slur meant to stop him specifically. About Nestlé putting serious thought into the idea that people should be charged for water, about Amazon and Walmart running the worst possible working conditions for the chance to squeeze out a little more blood money from overworked and under-respected employees. In a world where nature bends to the whims of an extractive society, claiming nature to …
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 12:52 AM
7

Appeals to nature are really bad arguments in a world where humanity has collectively decided nature can burn for a couple more dollars.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 12:30 AM
6

Benefit of building a social movement specifically about combating arbitrary gendered expectations is that one gender is far more adept at moving away from arbitrary gendered expectations. There's more leeway for them relative to the, like, three correct ways to be a man.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 12:28 AM
2

As much as I respect the optimism, any time spent on thinking about a dead end is time wasted, and that's not getting refunded by choosing to be the bigger person.
/r/PurplePillDebate09/08/26 12:05 AM
2

I commend you on your good fortune. Congrats.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 11:38 PM
3

You have my pity. I wish you well.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:46 PM
5

Do men not spend time, money, or emotional labor in the pursuit, organization, and decision of what date to make? Say what you will about the disproportionate balance of energy expenditure three, four, five dates in, but the first date isn't when that price starts to add up.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:39 PM
0

What makes this a feasible conclusion?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:36 PM
0

What is the value of those traditions?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:35 PM
7

Why is this the conclusion you drew? Is every heteropessimist secretly gay?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:33 PM
4

If the only thing to come out of this exchange is you digging in your heels and continuing to use gay as a pejorative for any man who doesn't abide the current dating culture, then I'm just going to extend my condolences to you for having such a limited framework for examining perspectives beyond your own.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:32 PM
2

I'm not gonna lie, it sounds like an absolute nightmare having a conversation with anybody who cannot meaningfully engage with hypotheticals.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 08:09 PM
0

And palate being alone during that entire transitory period? Fuck all the way off with the suffering solitude until you're healed treatment. Nobody should be forced into that.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:19 PM
2

That reads to me as a failure of adult relationships. Again, I'm not a fan of defining who is and isn't worthy of love by their capabilities.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:14 PM
2

You're dodging the question. Deliberately or not, this is a very simple premise. Is a baby unlovable if they lack the faculties to be taught financial literacy?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:10 PM
1

That you can't tell the difference is concerning. Are children unlovable for their financial illiteracy?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:09 PM
3

I don't blame women for having reservation. I raise a critical eyebrow at the standards they're using to defend themselves.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:08 PM
3

I didn't ask about being in functional adult relationships. I asked about being loved.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:07 PM
2

Okay, so the breakfast question is a test of whether or not people can engage with hypotheticals, right? And failing the breakfast test would represent an inability to conceptualize experiences that you specifically have not had, like you are beyond incapable of imagining a world where you didn't make other choices, or more explicitly, a world where "you" are "someone else." It's like a pre-empathy test of the abstract thinking required to engage with perspectives outside one's own lived experie…
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:06 PM
3

Do you need to be financially literate to be loved?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:04 PM
0

Realistically, masculine and feminine are terms assigned arbitrarily to traits people think should be gendered for some inane reason. If your type is assertive, ambitious leaders, that's something I won't begrudge you, but it would be more than a little foolish to say those traits are masculine simply because they exist in men.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:03 PM
3

I dispute this premise for the same reason I think people experiencing financial instability shouldn't be prohibited from dating. I don't support endorsing a class heirarchy for who is and isn't allowed to pursue romantic success.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 07:00 PM
3

It isn't "but for the money," in the same way the divorce never comes out of nowhere. There is an entire ecosystem of romantic subscripts men need to adhere to in order to settle the nervous system of their prospective romantic partner, and that particular tightrope of "being manly enough to be attractive, but gentle enough to be non-threatening," is a recipe for frustration and dysregulation.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:55 PM
2

Why?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:53 PM
3

I feel like I'm missing a mountain of context, and I'm sorry for putting that on your shoulders. Imma do some googling to figure out how this question could be failed.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:53 PM
3

But is it masculine?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:52 PM
4

It doesn't sound baseless to you because you share an inclination to draw the same flawed conclusion, that being unwilling to play the dating game by the current rules is evidence or homosexuality. This is obviously a flawed conclusion, because heteropessimistic women are still attracted to men despite all of men's bullshit, so it remains possible to hate how the system is arranged, and still desire something from it.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:51 PM
2

Paying for a date is masculine? Or making the offer to take such a financial hit for your sake is masculine?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:48 PM
5

It is their choice, but it doesn't engage with the premise. I'm not discussing how men bend to an arbitrary standard of courtship, I'm asking why the distribution of time energy and effort is arranged in this particularly annoying configuration
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:46 PM
7

Any perceived criticism, or explicitly criticism that makes baseless presumptions about how a given man functions?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:45 PM
3

I'm not saying it isn't an investment. I'm not saying it's a comparable investment. Plenty of guys are capable of settling, but the bandwagon doesn't really weigh on my argument here.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:42 PM
2

What's the breakfast question?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:41 PM
1

Vetting for safety concerns is worth a $5 coffee? Moreover, a woman saying yes to one dude out of many doesn't prevent her from saying yes to the many others who would also go on a date with her. That's not a limiting factor, nor a real opportunity cost until the exclusivity conversation.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:37 PM
8

Real "I'm not touching you" energy
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:32 PM
3

For obvious reasons, I don't consider saying yes to a date that costs you whatever psychological barriers you overcome to collect a free meal "investment"
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:30 PM
8

And the guy should make the first investment for some reason?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:28 PM
8

Are you saying that the correct action here is to mock the women who won't pay and keep it pushing?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:05 PM
13

Are women willing investors?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:04 PM
1

The breakfast question?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:02 PM
1

I do see where you're coming from, so i need to reiterate my position more clearly. If I do something wrong, and then immediately head off someone getting pissed at me by saying something like "I know I fucked up, I'm so stupid and pathetic. I'm sorry you have to put up with me," that's not taking accountability for the harm I've caused. I've seen that strategy used by men and women alike, which is why I say that not all apologies are made equal.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:19 AM
1

I suppose I'm just not convinced they're operating from the idea that men aren't also fully capable of making insincere apologies
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:11 AM
1

"I've never seen a woman give an honest apology" =/= "Men always give this sort of honest apology"
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 06:06 AM
2

I'm acting like the three comments directly above yours were not operating from that premise. Like the thread you're currently involved in was discussing a specific subtopic within the ideas engaged with by the post itself. Maybe it would've been more precise to say "was your immediate interlocutor asserting that premise?"
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 05:44 AM
6

And I'm saying that an apology is a different beast entirely from a sincere apology.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 05:18 AM
2

No. This thread was describing the phenomenon of taking accountability for one's actions, and how such could be done. Not all apologies are taking accountability for misdeeds.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 05:08 AM
2

If you ask a question and the answer is going to offend you, then you're setting yourself up to be offended.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 05:07 AM
3

Self-loathing is not the same as holding oneself accountable. An incel hating themselves for being sub5 and autistic isn't them suddenly taking responsibility for the increased difficulties they'll face and endeavoring to do their best in spite of them.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 05:05 AM
2

Was there anybody here saying that men didn't? It's not like this is an exclusively gendered phenomenon.
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 05:03 AM
8

Better than wanting sex? Is that some kind of comdemnable impulse?
/r/PurplePillDebate08/08/26 01:01 AM
4

No? I think women are capable of lying like everybody else, and a common lie I've observed is performative contrition.
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 11:15 PM
4

I would prefer no apology to a lie, but to each their own
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 11:10 PM
7

If a man made a flashy show of how sorry they are, how many times would that performance mean anything to you?
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 09:59 PM
12

I've seen berating oneself being used as a defense mechanism to prevent others from berating someone. It's something of a performance of contrition that serves to intercept anyone asking for a person to take earnest accountability for their actions. Not all apologies are taking responsibility for something, some of them are just ending the conversation.
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 09:48 PM
5

But why do men want easy access to as much sex as possible with as many women as they can? I know that's not a desire I hold personally.
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 06:31 PM
6

I wonder why men would prefer having options to having an ideal. Do men have particularly high odds of finding their unrealistically perfect match these days?
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 06:24 PM
6

I've observed this phenomenon. It's like a parallel conversation track to "men have problems with the system too," "men made the system so they should fuck off complaining to us and do something about it."
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 04:50 PM
7

I wonder why
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 04:48 PM
6

I love the smell of friendly fire.
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 04:46 PM
1

Oh boy. This is a spectacular monolith. Which feminists are we discussing today?
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 04:45 PM
3

Who is they in this context?
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 04:40 PM
1

Being at peace on your own is far from the default lmao. From the moment you clawed your way into this world you were screaming for help, for food, for cleaning, for a hug. You might bury those impulses in age, or habits, or any other pile of excuses, but the first version of you was far from perfectly independent.
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 04:21 PM
1

Life is unfair almost specifically because people have acknowledged the unfairness of life and conceded to it. The idea that because life is unfair, it should remain as such is a fairly negligent concept to humor in my opinion.
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 02:49 AM
1

Curious. This is an interesting opinion on the subject. Why aren't lies bad in all circumstances?
/r/PurplePillDebate07/08/26 01:09 AM
1

Are lies only bad if they're harmful?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 10:43 PM
1

A more accurate sentiment would be that a therapist would tell their client something to the effect of "if this is something you feel needs to be done immediately, then you should make that choice for yourself. We can work on why this choice is necessary later, and I would encourage such an evaluation so that we can make better choices in the future." Client affirmation is a vital part of building the therapeutic alliance that allows for more complex interventions. If a therapist told their clie…
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 10:40 PM
1

And the undeserving alike. Again, to "earn" a promotion is to be promoted by whatever system elects to elevate you. That's not your choice, that's the result of an institution above you.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 10:31 PM
2

What a pessimistic take. Why would the average man cheat if they had the opportunity?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 09:27 PM
1

Doesn't stop them from being promoted.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 09:17 PM
1

A therapist would say that distress management skills take priority to prosocial behavior.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 09:00 PM
1

I think they were all given their promotion from factors they have no real choice in influencing
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 09:00 PM
1

Not the best possible choice, far from the worst.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 08:36 PM
1

You seem to be letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, my dude.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 08:35 PM
1

Is the best choice for OP to withstand his resentment for people he should love until it goes away? Is the only possible choice for him going to a therapist to identify his combative distortions, and potentially work through them at great financial and temporal cost to himself?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 08:13 PM
1

Did I say there was no better solution, or did you infer that from my lack of condemnation? I think the best solution is the one that results in the least harm, and forcing someone to be in consistent conflict with themselves in order to become better is far from ideal in my estimation. Ideally there'd be no need to intervene, but that's not this situation.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 08:00 PM
1

I didn't say you had to agree with me. I'm just pointing out that your framework for the correct moral decision in this scenario is deeply limiting.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 07:40 PM
1

Synthesis is the philosophical process of deriving truth from conflicting concepts, thesis and antithesis. Self improvement isn't a single path with a single destination. There's many strategies available for becoming a better person.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 07:32 PM
1

My condolences. It must be difficult to be incapable of synthesis.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 05:23 PM
1

You would like to think that, but even you can't escape the possibility of it being true.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 05:00 PM
1

I wouldn't force my child to play a sport that tortures them, firstly. If they're that burned by the idea of losing, then I'd take them off the team while we worked through that issue. Same principle here. Distance, reflection, growth, and return, are all viable steps in the process.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:56 PM
1

Sure. Promotions are assigned, not earned. People can choose to promote you, and you can inform that choice, but it's not something you earned with your own power so much as something that was handed to you by someone else's.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:54 PM
1

In the immediate sense, it is very much a solution to resolving the stimulus exacerbating OP's insecurity. It's a good step one, better than smiling through clenched teeth in any case. It's better to distance oneself than to lie to everyone.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:47 PM
1

And managing that anger is a good thing. Distancing oneself so that you don't have to be angry, or jealous, or aggrieved, is as rational as any other course of action.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:42 PM
1

Do you think anger isn't distressing?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:36 PM
1

Self improvement is managing someone's emotional health. They can come back to their friends later, but it's pretty unreasonable to condemn anybody for exercising a really basic distress management skill.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:33 PM
1

So they're not entitled to my presence, but I'm not allowed to leave if being around them is stressful? Hold on, are you projecting OP's reaction onto me? I'm not distancing myself from my friends, even if I reserve the right to do so.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:24 PM
0

Are your friends entitled to your presence even if being around them is personally distressing?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:19 PM
0

Who's holding their friends at fault?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:17 PM
0

What a pointless platitude. Are we expecting people to not look at the world around them now?
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:13 PM
1

We moved from the process of proving one's capability to earning a promotion
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 04:10 PM
1

I'm inclined to disagree, but more to your point, influencing the decisions of those who will enshrine you in power is not earning that power. Campaigning for an election is not earning the power that office provides. Even being elected is not evidence of having earned one's position so much as having successfully persuaded others into granting one power.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 06:52 AM
-3

I do wonder what the difference between delusions here is. "I need someone else to feel whole" doesn't seem all that different from "I don't need another person to justify my existence," on the scale of empirical statements about reality.
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 06:37 AM
–

This
/r/PurplePillDebate06/08/26 06:29 AM
1

Isn't that exactly what an election is?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 11:59 PM
1

No one can ever earn a promotion. They can be promoted, and their performance can be considered in the evaluation process for such a promotion, but it is never given to them under their own power, let alone because they are owed one.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 11:50 PM
1

I think entitlement is a strange way to describe the obligations of fulfilling a contract.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 11:42 PM
4

Sort of like it's more than a little disingenuous to interpret "a predictable outcome" as evidence of absolute uniformity, no? I genuinely cannot tell if you're trying to engage in a conversation, or tell me off for sticking my nose where you think it shouldn't go.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 11:00 PM
0

Yeah, I think the "strongly implied" reading might be your own prejudices filling in the blanks.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 10:40 PM
–

Yeah, no I disagree with this premise. The moment dating can be boiled down into a courtship ritual with a price tag is the moment it becomes indistinguishable from prostitution.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 10:25 PM
5

All comments are unnecessary. I elected to clear up what I thought was a fairly obvious misconception between interlocutors.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 10:17 PM
4

Obviously? I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to illustrate here?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 10:14 PM
–

Concerning that population, are they only valuable upon concession to the standards of society and reintegration into its structures?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 10:11 PM
4

Well yeah, this wouldn't be a conversation if it was a phenomenon that applied universally. Then it would just be a factual statement as opposed to a working model.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 10:10 PM
–

Are they really left over if they left first? That's like asking if someone is really unemployed because they quit applying for jobs. The answer is yes, obviously.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 09:57 PM
8

Not really? You can break the law whenever you want, and you can engage with the consequences as you please.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 09:35 PM
1

"Refusing your partner intimacy indicates an unhealthy relationship" is rhetorically identical to "not wanting to have sex with a partner is a symptom of mych deeper problems in the relationship."
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 09:31 PM
25

Nobody's entitled to a healthy relationship either. People are only really bound by their own conscience, and that conscience doesn't afford them any meaningful obligations from anyone who exists beyond their own mind.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 09:28 PM
3

They're entitled to a promotion as a result of doing what they're supposed to?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 07:33 PM
2

Who owes them a promotion?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 07:28 PM
–

Compromise and collaboration seem to be the big things for building a relationship, and I'm not gonna say I have the answer for how much Compromise is too much, but I feel like saying "no Compromise is acceptable," is far too little for building a relationship with any other human being.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:47 PM
–

And to act like those losers aren't as worthy of care and support as everyone else in the world is just a position in support of constructing another heirarchy. Not for nothing, but society isn't made up of contributors and leeches, it's comprised of participants, and everyone participates.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:41 PM
–

Cool. I'm not going to argue for OP's position because it's only technically correct in the vaugest sense, but I do think it's important to have concise and accurate disagreements.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:39 PM
–

I agree that more men should be feminist, or at the very least incorporate the feminist framework into their social critique. That said, nobody's going to get anywhere through deliberate artifice. Saying "the world seems fine for men to me," is a very strange comment to make when the world is pretty observably not fine for anyone right now.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:34 PM
–

It is worth noting that the problems of men are a feminist issue. Resolving gendered disparity, achieving gender equality, is the stated goal of most feminist causes, so at some point the issues that face men should go on the table
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:26 PM
2

I do and have. The friend zone exists in the mind in the same way a friendship exists in the mind. It's unhealthy to ruminate on one's individual position in a relationship, especially if it causes you pain, but that doesn't mean there aren't words to accurately describe your experience or the feelings associated with them. Most arguments to invalidate the friendzone use logic that can be applied to most other interpersonal dynamics.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:19 PM
2

Friend zones exist in the same way friendships do. Relationships are only ever real in the emotions and behaviors that go into them.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:12 PM
3

She's responsible for her part in the dynamic. Choosing to maintain a friendship isn't something either party is capable of independently. Choosing to remain friends is a decision made by both sides, and friend-zoning is the choice to make that decision regardless of how the pining party feels.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:05 PM
2

I'm not basing my logic off my standards and morals. I lie for much more practical reasons than trying to fit into some arbitrary mould of compatibility. My argument is that your value system creates the incentives for duplicity in the same way a locked door incentivises the creation of lockpicks. It's a rational consequence of premises you've asserted, not a strategy I consider particularly valuable.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:02 PM
5

I'm on the other side of that. I don't have any breakdowns left in the operating system.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:58 PM
5

If she sees him as just a friend, and is choosing to maintain the dynamic with full knowledge of how her friend is managing their position in the relationship, it seems mildly infantilizing to absolve her of all responsibility for maintaining the relationship. Especially if she's choosing to do so because her friendship is more important than her friend's feelings. It may be his responsibility to choose how to handle himself, but a friendship isn't a relationship maintained by a single party.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:56 PM
4

What was that John Mulaney quote... "i hold all of my feelings right in here. And then I'll die."
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:51 PM
3

So you're saying a word with multiple definitions doesn't hold true because the dynamics they represent aren't indicative of real friendship? If that's the case, what would you call a situation wherein a guy doesn't deal with his feelings, but continues to maintain the friendship pessimistically? Not because he's holding out a torch for the subject of his affections to eventually turn around, but because he likes being around them too much to abandon either his feelings or the relationship as it…
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:49 PM
5

Appeals to purity are poor arguments. How much of my mess can I put on anyone else's shoulders and still be considered a good friend to them?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:43 PM
1

You're the one who claimed red flags are objective and universal. I'm sorry you can't support that claim. The reality is that people have to make decisions every day about who they are, and what they want, and oftentimes the decision to get what they want while maintaining who they are requires a level of flexibility. That same flexibility is everyone's right, because nobody is entitled to a full profile of anyone else's subjective inner world. It isn't abusive to hide your flaws from others, es…
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:43 PM
3

Not if doing so costs me the same relationships I spent a decade building. I'll lie until they read my apology in my will if that's what it takes.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:29 PM
3

Peerage. They offer useful perspectives and ground for reflection when my own insight fails.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:23 PM
6

I'm autistic and that very intensity has taught me to exercise more discretion
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:20 PM
3

Is dishonesty a bad trait? I was under the impression that maintaining a respectful facade during your employment hours was a mark of professional competence. And to the point of accepting that it'll take a lot longer to find someone aligned with you, I wouldn't expect everyone to have faith in the idea that there even is someone aligned with their tastes and values in the world. That's a pretty unfalsifiable claim.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:10 PM
1

Because it's logical to dread something that will hurt. The reactions to that dread may be suspect, but the dread itself isn't something I object to. It's all the dancing around what is and isn't the correct response to an emotion that I consider questionable. The idea that people don't truly care unless they tapdance their way to a specific tune personally annoys me as someone who thinks very carefully about how I react to my emotions. Hell, even the third and better scenario has an element of …
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:07 PM
1

People react emotionally to having emotions. I'm shocked. That's an earth-shattering revelation right there. . . Although I do want to illustrate the difference between "doesn't care anymore," and "never really cared." Because if apathy was the ruling dynamic in this exchange, there would be no associated losing of shit as someone's lack of feelings spiral out of control If a person decides they hate being friendzoned, then acting on that hatred is a rational course of action. Women dreading the…
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:58 PM
4

I think there's an incongruence between self-improvement and abandoning red flags. Those aren't the same process, because what makes someone better is different from removing the qualities that make people unnerved. I've also worked tirelessly to find and refine the best version of myself, but the fact of the matter is that "my best," and "the world's interpretation of my best," are not the same concept, and I'm not in the habit of cutting off my tail to appease a world of baboons.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:49 PM
6

First, I'd like to hear your elaboration on why the friendzone doesn't exist. What concept are you describing into unreality here?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:46 PM
–

Like, I'm all for a strong partner. But if the relationship is defined by my acquiescence, then my partner doesn't really value my strength do they? Where is the balance between the respective qualities if both partners here?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:44 PM
1

Point 4 doesn't negate or invalidate the feelings of the aggrieved party. It would be foolish to assume the man doesn't "actually care," unless he responds in a specific, rational manner.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:41 PM
3

And the self-mutilation required to abandon enough red flags to become desirable isn't abusive? The bandwagon's opinion on logic doesn't matter much to me, especially when so much of that logic is bogged down by conflicting ideas and values that only make the conversation on how to achieve relationship success hazier than it needs to be.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:33 PM
1

How are you defining "actual care" in this context? Caring enough about anybody to self-restrict is a pretty dangerous slope to position oneself on, so the argument that "if you really cared about me, or cared enough about me, you wouldn't care about [whatever deal breaker exists]" is a sentiment I find troubling.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:27 PM
5

Illogical? If, by your argument, men who show red flags don't get relationships, and men who hide their red flags do, then explain how "men should hide their red flags," is an Illogical conclusion to draw?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:18 PM
3

This sounds like an argument to hide one's red flags for as long as possible to secure the best possible position in a relationship dynamic.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:08 PM
2

Before I get on that, I want to ask what makes a friendship "perfectly good," if it can be destroyed utterly by the libido of a single man. Or, asked another way, how good is a friendship if it's only maintained by a man keeping their desires out of sight?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 04:02 PM
–

What exactly is the difference between "handling" a strong woman and "yielding to" a strong women? Because in my experience, when two uncompromising forces meet, the most responsible course of action is for those entities to move past each other instead of clashing.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 03:58 PM
2

And risk losing the friendship by expressing petty vanity? Fat chance honestly. "Hey bestie, we've been around each other long enough that it feels like I've replaced one of my vital organs with your being. I don't remember how we got here, but damn if I wouldn't feel destroyed by your absence-" is not a sentiment that is best shared with others.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 03:42 PM
7

It draws a distinction between the relationships between men and women. Or at the very least, a distinction between your relationships and mine. I trust that my friends want to be around me, and try to be enjoyable to be around in exchange for their company. Their motivations aren't really the defining feature of the relationship so much as their active choice to continue being friends with me is.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 03:36 PM
3

Your response isn't quite answering my question. I was asking about what makes such a response mature, not what use it provides to a relationship.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 03:13 PM
8

Women are pretty big proponents of prosocial duplicity.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 03:12 PM
12

I think the science is closer to meteorology than fortune-telling. Enough common outcomes form a pattern that holds more reliability than blindly walking into the summer air needless of the rolling storm clouds.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:57 PM
3

If you're not interested in disclosing the why of your actions, then by definition you're acting out of ulterior motivations.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:55 PM
7

Secret motive, hidden motivation, discreet interest, it's not like I'm personally in the habit of telling my friends "hey there, I'm fascinated by this quality of yours and would like to spend more time in proximity to it." That would be socially inept. And I personally have never once been told "hey man, were friends because I like this quality of yours/just like being around you."
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:53 PM
9

People have friends because something about that friendship is appealing to maintain.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:46 PM
4

Is that maturity or supplication? If someone takes a stark view of a relationship, and acknowledges that maintaining a friendship is more to someone else's gratification than their own, is it a mature decision to continue maintaining such a dynamic?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:45 PM
1

This... reads like hyperbole.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:40 PM
14

This is a fascinating bit of conceptual erasure, because it's attempting to bury a pretty well-discussed phenomenon under one of the most shallow binaries I have ever seen.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:40 PM
19

No, he's asking "if women are so diverse, how come they routinely and consistently produce a predictable outcome for some men?"
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:38 PM
5

All friendships are built on ulterior motives. Whatever shared interest sparks the relationship, it's only built when a party is invested enough in reinforcing the dynamic into some significant.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 02:37 PM
–

The difference in this particular change is that gender parity is very, very easy to sell as a loss of status and power to the demographic losing unwarranted privilege. Fighting for the impossible preservation of a bygone glory is far more charming than wandering into the chaos of everyone else having a gay old time
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 08:16 AM
–

Or even better, build a world where their manuals never expire. Convince enough people that change is scary, that it brings oblivion, and they'll do damn near anything to freeze the world in place.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 07:53 AM
–

And people wonder why it is so easy to propagandize men into believing in some mythical Tradwife Regression to secure their place in the world...
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 07:34 AM
1

I do. It helps me go over my arguments, and gives me a level of insight into the labyrinthine delusions of others. You, for example, are deeply fascinating.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:29 AM
1

That's a personal limitation, again. Your inability to make a persuasive argument against someone untethered to your perspective on how the world works doesn't make truth more useful or valuable, it only inhibits your capacity to share it.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 06:21 AM
1

How many men occupied positions of political, ecomomic, or social power relative to women? What was the condition of the glass ceiling in '09?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:52 AM
1

That's a skill issue. It's fully possible to engage with people unbeholden to truth, just like its possible to support people who experience delusions. A conversation may be difficult, but "impossible" is hilariously hyperbolic. Debates are an exercise in persuasive skill, and honesty may be useful, but The Truth very seldom is.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:50 AM
1

Do you think the only disparities amongst people are legislative?
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:29 AM
1

Caring about the truth doesn't make it more useful to anyone but the person who cares about truth. Waving the truth in front of an obstinate interlocutor isn't going to suddenly convince them of the righteousness of your position.
/r/PurplePillDebate05/08/26 05:28 AM
1

That doesn't answer my question. I know where truth comes from, I'm asking about how useful it is.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 07:41 PM
1

And white women still benefit from white supremacy. There's intersecting issues there
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 05:22 PM
1

They can, however, hold collective interests in maintaining their class advantage, like any member of the billionaire class, or nobility. Your framework for "privilege" is a little lacking
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 05:00 PM
1

Yes. Class implies shared interests, advantages, disadvantages, and a position in the varying social hierarchies. Just like women, as a class, have a vested interest in their own suffrage, their own bodily autonomy, and their capacity to walk dark alleyways unmolested.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:55 PM
1

Do you think all members of the working class have a communal bank account? Otherwise, you're circling a conversation on privilege, which is a collective set of advantages that inhibit men from facing specific social difficulties. That's our collective account.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:50 PM
1

I'm comparing women treating men as a class to the civil rights movement.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:47 PM
2

Truth isn't exactly the pinnacle of rhetorical strategy. Otherwise it would see more success in argumentation.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:46 PM
3

Unprovoked? That's a hilarious oversimplification. It's like saying black people just took racism on the chin during Jim Crow. "The Civil Rights Movement came out of nowhere-"
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:42 PM
1

What is the value of truth in a debate?
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:39 PM
1

Are facts known to be especially persuasive?
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:32 PM
2

What is a bad opinion in this context? Because I'd bet good money most men have objectionable opinions about women and womanhood.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:29 PM
1

Are facts valued for their rhetorical efficacy?
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:27 PM
1

"Y'all do that shit too," isn't exactly a scathing rebuttal to people who don't believe hypocrisy is a moral failing.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:24 PM
1

Does that make the latter argument a good one, or are you making the former to argue how both ideas are stupid?
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 04:19 PM
1

Being rejected, so trying again within the same social circle, face-tanking another rejection, trying again within the same social circle, developing a reputation as the desperate guy who will ask out anyone with a pulse, being broadly maligned for an utter lack of standards, and further limiting my options moving forward is a pretty frustrating consequence to me.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 03:58 PM
0

What a delightfully limiting perspective. "It's only not fun if you don't see women as people" People are the most reliable source of pain I have to navigate in my life, so recreational interpersonal minesweeper isn't quite the pinnacle of a great time in my experience.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 03:54 PM
4

"Failure is fun, people should fuck up more often-" was not the argument I was expecting today.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 03:49 PM
5

That's a limit of the imagination, boss. If loneliness is worse than even the most unhealthy relationship, than logically any relationship will suffice.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 03:44 PM
4

Shallow is sometimes all people get. Ideally there's shared passions like a certain genre of videogames or a field of academic study, but sometimes the closest bond you can forge is one of seeing yourself in someone else's position.
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 12:23 AM
5

Nobody said they did?
/r/PurplePillDebate04/08/26 12:00 AM
3

How much improvement erases the feeling of relative incompetence?
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 11:31 PM
5

Part of friendship is the sense of peerage. It's not unreasonable to imagine that sense of peerage may break down somewhat if you're the one falling behind.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 10:29 PM
5

They need Someone to agree with them, and that's a reasonable desire to have.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 10:28 PM
9

Some people need reassurance when making hard choices. It's not an uncommon feature for social creatures to experience complex feelings about engaging in antisocial behaviors.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 10:17 PM
1

This is why retribution is a loser's game.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 06:50 AM
1

That's fine. You're free to say what you want, just as your interlocutor is free to point out how rude it is to say certain things.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 01:42 AM
0

If 1% of the population was incapable of being loved romantically or platonically or both, then I'd consider that population about as worthy of moral consideration as redheads or Trans folk. By which I mean, they're worthy of love even if the world is incapable of loving them.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 01:00 AM
1

This does make a fairly compelling argument for the common incel refrain that some people are simply unlovable.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 12:45 AM
2

And barring explicit foreknowledge that absolute control over everyone's actions is a way to produce an outcome I would consider collective human flourishing, that's not a possibility worth engaging with. As it stands, if maximal human freedom results in maximal harm to other humans, then I think the scales should be modified to minimize harm than to maximize choice.
/r/PurplePillDebate03/08/26 12:00 AM
2

And that particular kind of binary thought is incredibly popular amongst my peers on the spectrum. Black-and-white thinking on the subject of how to organize society is not a productive method for discerning the most effective means of ensuring collective human flourishing, friend.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:47 PM
2

The freedom vs security conversation has been had for centuries before me, boss, and I'm personally a big fan of the New Deal even if it takes some of the average person's maximal freedom in order to raise the floor for the entire population.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:44 PM
1

Did you not say it was sad to believe an ONS is more valuable than a long-term relationship?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:40 PM
2

Which is, in my opinion, ample evidence that there needs to be some external social impetus for people to look out for each other. The last thing I want to see at the end of all of our social projects is Jund.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:31 PM
2

"People would just donate and help. They would create the social protections without any legal obligation to do so." Buddy, you should read up on the Reconstruction to see how well that worked out.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:28 PM
1

This is monstrous logic, you understand that, right? You're advocating for a world absent social protections for poor choices, and that necessarily affords the highest social advantage to anyone willing to take advantage of others.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:24 PM
2

Who decides what people deserve?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:19 PM
2

No, you need to understand how indirect language can read like snide subtext to people already wary of your presence.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:18 PM
2

This is quite possibly the funniest exchange I've had in the past five years, because you sound like my dumbass fresh out of high school. What, in your estimation, is the consequence of building a society around giving everyone what they deserve? Bonus points are on the table if you can guess the immediate follow-up question to that one.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:14 PM
1

It protects idiots, and the unlucky. That protection affords them the ability to become less of an idiot, and to have a better run of things in the future. The idea that the obligation to look after the unfortunate is some kind of punishment is a disturbingly individualist argument for any human to make.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:03 PM
2

Oh no, not the "billionaires are going to leave," argument. Do you know why that argument is ass, or do I need to explain it?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 11:00 PM
2

I feel like you have very complex feelings about the idea of a social safety net. Suffice it to say I disagree with the sentiment that someone bungee jumping without a rope deserves to die. It's a natural consequence, but not a necessarily a moral good. Adults making stupid choices deserve a measure of insulation from the worst possible outcomes of those decisions by virtue of existing in a society that should endeavor to look out for even the most vulnerable of us. It is a moral good to protect…
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:49 PM
1

Too much emphasis? What do you mean?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:44 PM
1

Which is why I asked, is Common Law Marriage great in all cases?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:41 PM
2

Lmao, the insurance system is so unbelievably fucked that people are actively choosing to die when they'd have otherwise been looked after. That is not the example I would use for the idea that people deserve what hell comes their way when they're not looking after themselves. If an adult makes a poor decision, consequences are inevitable, but that inevitability is not a moral stance on the righteousness of those consequences. Someone going bungee jumping doesn't deserve for their rope to snap.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:40 PM
2

Pizza is mostly great, there are exceptions. Same for sex, marriage, coffee, couches, and even the new spider-man movie, and that might be my favorite one in the series. Many things are Mostly Great,
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:37 PM
8

This is a remarkably troubling premise. How far does this principle extend? Would you include children who don't know self-preservation? The disabled who often lack the means to self-preserve? How many people don't deserve protection if they're choosing to act in a way that doesn't protect themselves?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:33 PM
6

What do you mean? You made a pretty simple comment, and I'm just asking about its simplicity. Great, unambiguously, without caveat, is an incredible claim to make for most things, so I'm curious as to how common law marriage is somehow an exception to that rule.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:32 PM
2

So chosing to depend on someone means that experiencing neglect is an acceptable consequence?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:29 PM
1

Does it deserve harm?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:25 PM
6

What a remarkable lapse in nuance. I'm kinda amused by this actually.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:24 PM
0

Bad decisions? Unless someone's actively deciding to screw someone else over, I don't think "bad decisions" is a sufficient ground for someone to experience systemic harm.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:21 PM
4

We talking generally great, great in all circumstances, better than they are worse, how great are common law marriages?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 10:19 PM
0

I'm not sure difficult necessarily means valuable though. It would be difficult for me to cut off my hand than to use it for the hundreds of other things a hand is good for, that doesn't mean it's more valuable for me to have disarmed myself than to have remained capable of clapping. Likewise, reshaping myself into someone capable of consistent ONS sounds much more difficult than being me, the person I love, and I'm not sure such mutilation is more valuable for its effort.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 07:38 PM
2

"This is-"
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 07:23 PM
2

There's a distinction. It's the difference between "you're sad," and "you're sad for thinking"
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 06:23 PM
5

Calling someone pitiful to their face is rudeness. It would be like calling someone ignorant for not knowing that showing public contempt for people's flaws is impolite.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 05:59 PM
2

"If you can't afford dates, do something else." You had a few ideas worth engaging with, but on the topic of "should dating be a luxury activity," the central idea you supported was in the affirmative of an idea I'm fairly critical of.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:55 PM
1

Is the idea that "dating is for rich people only," a sentiment you agree with? Should we organize society to uphold that standard?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:45 PM
2

$40 on a random person every month in the vain hope of establishing a mutual connection sounds a lot like buying a pack or scratch-offs in the hope that you'll make it big to me.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:23 PM
1

Authenticity is a different standard entirely from recognizing the humanity of others.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:20 PM
0

And I'm sure you'll vet for liars another way still. Your standards are your own, and I don't particularly care what you do, but I don't think "dating is a luxury" a particularly healthy social framework for society to adopt any more than I think downtime from work or access to effective healthcare is a luxury.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:15 PM
4

This is not entirely correct. Many many many many factors are brought into any given relationship beyond any given individual's specific degree of romantic competence. Reducing those factors to one person's ability to bootstraps their way through social tumult is quite possibly the most shallow interpretation of the issue I've seen since the last prompt was posted.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:13 PM
1

I'm not sure that's a particularly good standard to hold. Barring romantic pursuits by fiscal capacity is a quick and dirty way to not only filter out people too poor to date, but also to increase the population of people in your pool who have a strictly transactional belief structure, the ones who believe that dating is an investment, as opposed to a collaborative project.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:10 PM
0

Are we defining dating as a luxury activity now?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 04:05 PM
1

Why should it? We're not slaves to our fleeting emotional impulses.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 03:59 PM
3

Those are internal processes. They don't necessarily translate into any external behavior.
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 03:53 PM
5

And what does it mean to behave like the persons around you are of the same species?
/r/PurplePillDebate02/08/26 02:32 PM
2

Acceptance doesn't reduce agony, it just becomes complacent in resisting it.
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 11:30 PM
2

Why is that acceptable to anybody?
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 08:30 PM
3

Human Being is a term that is nebulous at best.
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 08:23 PM
1

So, like, is the solution to male entitlement thought-policing men until they accept whatever reality gives them?
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 03:17 AM
1

Why not? You're doing it. Now, I'm personally more of an ideas guy. I like discussing the underlying sentiments pinning someone's choice of words and actions, which is why the entitlement discussion interests me. The idea that men "shouldn't be entitled," reads either like "men shouldn't have thoughts on this subject," or "men shouldn't act like their thoughts matter," depending on who you ask, and I find one of these ideas far more objectionable than the other.
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 03:06 AM
1

Collectively agreed upon meaning isn't objective. Language especially is commonly understood as "descriptive, not prescriptive."
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 02:59 AM
1

Does The normal definition agree, or does Your normal definition of the word Agree?
/r/PurplePillDebate01/08/26 02:16 AM
1

I mean that dictionary definitions don't hold up to colloquial spaces, neither do academic definitions, because laymen don't use language the same way. People are infamous for talking past each other because their intuitions on what a word means don't match.
/r/PurplePillDebate31/07/26 10:45 PM
1

Colloquial language has very clear limits in explaining complex ideas. Normal people are all too eager to tear words off their podiums and play around until the ideas associated with them are all but worn away.
/r/PurplePillDebate31/07/26 09:15 PM
1

I haven't seen you this excited to repeat an argument since you crashed out over being told your takes are braindead. The capacity for bad people to lie doesn't detract from the capacity for good people to fuck up. Those factors don't have a correlation.
/r/PurplePillDebate31/07/26 03:55 PM
1

Using an appeal to purity in order to justify a thought-terminating cliche. Good people are as fallible as anyone else. This sort of nuance-flattening binary really does serve to invalidate any human experience that runs counter to one's own narrative.
/r/PurplePillDebate31/07/26 09:26 AM
4

I don't imagine the whole "imagine being less desireable than the worst man you know," argument is going to be especially well-received by the population tripping over themselves to say personality is so significant to a man's romantic success.
/r/PurplePillDebate31/07/26 08:26 AM
1

I also think they're either genetic or developed mostly during childhood, but again, my issue is with presuming these things happen without cause compared to the development of a political philosophy.
/r/PurplePillDebate31/07/26 12:58 AM
3

And now we've descended completely into the Ad-hominem fallacy as a fantastic example of taking accountability for our mistakes. Nicely done.
/r/PurplePillDebate30/07/26 10:29 PM
3

It's very funny that your response to being told you're drawing from anecdotal and insufficient data is to claim you've been insulted. Imagine if some hard-core rogerist cried about being attacked because someone said they need to take a look at what regular people are up to.
/r/PurplePillDebate30/07/26 10:10 PM
1

Ideally equality would hold everyone accountable to their communities, no? Feminism isn't uniquely inconsistent on that standard.
/r/PurplePillDebate30/07/26 10:07 PM
1

A certain type of young men who are just, what, uniquely unempathetic to others?
/r/PurplePillDebate30/07/26 10:05 PM
0

This is going to be interesting
/r/PurplePillDebate30/07/26 06:22 PM
2

How did you go from "these political views don't develop in a vaccum," to "they're directly downwind of low empathy and high narcissism," like those are somehow traits that develop in a vacuum? You're being pretty picky with when you decide to care about cause and effect there, boss.
/r/PurplePillDebate30/07/26 10:53 AM
1

What exactly is a privilege in this context?
/r/PurplePillDebate29/07/26 04:28 PM
-1

The Tate brothers weren't famous for their sense of entitlement. They were famous for being international criminals with an empire built on sexual exploitation. Their internal value system is inconsequential to the very tangible harm they were complicit in.
/r/PurplePillDebate29/07/26 04:16 PM
2

Are you expecting me to litigate every point on the possible intervention chain from changing someone's personal habits to becoming bubba's prison bottom, or is it reasonable for me to cut to the end of the line to illustrate the absurdity of a point?
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 07:11 AM
0

A person who performs friendship sufficiently.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 06:21 AM
2

Here, I'll help. https://preview.redd.it/f8slxlqyjpeh1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a871f799480684b49c85fcecc27a07d5ef6e62e
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 04:22 AM
0

Oh how wrong you are. Reread the comment at the very top of that thread, because the gap in your logic was identified by someone before me. They saw the same conclusion, and instead of interrogating the argument they presented, you chose to cling desperately to the one example that offends you.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 04:20 AM
0

I implied it was the logical conclusion to failing to exhaust all possible options to not be an incel. Keep up, Babel. Your conclusions about how I feel towards such an outcome are the result of your prejudices, not my expressed sentiment.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 04:18 AM
0

That was my rebuttal to the claim that "an incel isn't an incel until they've exhausted all possible options to not be an incel." Are you utterly incapable of engaging honestly with a point?
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 04:12 AM
3

You have fundamentally misunderstood every argument I've ever made to justify your own claims. At some point I can't be blamed for your projections.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 04:09 AM
3

This is an appeal to purity. A particularly ableist example considering how easily psychopathy is invoked, but an appeal to purity nonetheless.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:59 AM
2

Trust doesn't confirm the definition though, not anymore than faith confirms the existence of God. At best it ameliorates the fear that you're pouring more into the relationship than your "friends."
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:52 AM
2

Trust is not included in this definition.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:40 AM
5

That's not how a distinction without a difference works. Again, you're assuming I agree with your standard of incelibacy. I don't. To me, your definition is as nonsensical as presuming that incels are volcels until they have exhausted every possible option to stop being incels.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:19 AM
7

If you're assuming I said CSA was "the better solution," as opposed to "the logical endpoint of your claim," then you really aren't engaging with the implications of your argument.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:08 AM
1

My money is on option number 2 at this rate. This isn't the first time Babylon has clung fervently to a single point in order to avoid discussing the flaws in her own premise.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:07 AM
7

You're confusing consideration for illustration. "You're not a true incel unless you Have Tried Everything To Not Be Celibate" is the exact same logic as "you're not truly desperate until you've decided to change yourself to attract others." That's the argument you're making Lilith, not the opinion I support.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 03:03 AM
1

Catching feelings is different from possessing the baseline level of trust in one's environment required to participate in casual sex. I'm not talking about purely romantic emotions when discussing the value of connection in a society overall. Kids are great, don't get me wrong, but kids get nowhere in a society that doesn't trust its participants.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 02:32 AM
1

How is meaning defined in that context, because it runs the risk of excluding a number of arrangements people would otherwise consider casual.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 02:21 AM
0

They are by definition settling for anything short of everything they want.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 01:52 AM
6

In case it wasn't clear enough. "If someone was really X, they'd Y," is the core of this thread's dispute. The argument of "if a man were truly desperate, he wouldn't be picky" is a textbook appeal to purity, completely ignoring the full complexity of the human experience in order to simplify an equation that doesn't conform to the above logic. A truly hungry man would not necessarily autocannibalize to satisfy themselves. A truly sad man will not always take the express route to the lobby. "Tru…
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 01:50 AM
2

You have no working definition of accountability or entitlement. You're choosing to winge about this point because it allows you to validate your own presuppositions on how men act when forced to navigate discomfort, and I'm not interested in being your therapist while you solve that problem. Do you understand the argument I'm making, or are the words too jarring for you to process effectively?
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 01:45 AM
3

Hell, I don't even buy the argument that women pick what they actually desire. Most people don't have the luxury of finding their ideal partner even if they spend a lifetime looking. Most people have a rough outline, and fill out the details depending on what they can make work with someone else.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 01:35 AM
1

Sure, we'd prove that barring any other variable, a guy would choose a hot chick over a regular lady. Unfortunately, dating isn't a matter of barring any other variable.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 01:27 AM
2

That requires an awful lot of trust, and still ultimately confirms nothing. Deception of word and deed are amongst the most prosocial tools a human has at their disposal.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 01:25 AM
2

This is what we like to call an Ad Hominem fallacy. "This is the type of guy who's personally revolting to me, so his arguments don't have any weight."
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:54 AM
2

I agree. The issue I'm raising is very specific here- the idea that there is a specific caliber of "not trying hard enough" that divides incels from volcels is a bad argument, because it places a burden of proof on incels to "prove" their failure by any means necessary. "Have you tried being a better person," "have you tried being a worse person," "have you considered genuinely changing yourself from first principles into someone fundamentally different?"- "you're volcel because you're not tryin…
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:52 AM
2

It's not a point I disagree with. Like I said, change is possible for people who believe it is possible, and you clearly do.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:44 AM
4

Exactly my point. It's a bullshit argument for bullshitters.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:40 AM
1

And in your opinion, failing to do everything shy of targeting people who cannot consent should mean someone isn't an incel?
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:39 AM
1

You've already changed yourself to pursue a happier version.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:37 AM
1

What is everything possible short of morally depraved means?
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:34 AM
2

People can change, but an important, I'd argue the most important step in that process is believing change is possible. For obvious reasons, you've got a bit of a leg up in holding such a belief.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:16 AM
7

Please do. I'm of the opinion that an incel remains an incel even if they don't throw themselves desperately at everyone who considers them worth use as a masturbatory aid. You're free to quote me on that. You're the one who thinks it's voluntary unless you're driven by the right kind of desperation to abandon any standard for restraint or decency or integrity. It's really strange how abandoning those values can be seen as taking accountability in your eyes, but I'll let you flesh out another ar…
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:10 AM
6

You're the one who chose to raise the argument about how much of incelibacy is personally imposed. I'm playing the game by your rules, Lilly.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:05 AM
–

An incel could theoretically stop being an incel if they start preying on children. For obvious reasons, the "you're not an incel unless you've tried everything possible to fuck," argument falls apart when you engage with what possible alternatives are nonviable.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/07/26 12:00 AM
2

No. I think you're convinced that basic empathy can survive a conditioning machine comparable to the U.S. Military by virtue of empathy being some irrepressible human quality. It's still a wild belief to possess, but it's more reasonable than expecting kids to enjoy being groomed into patriarchy.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 11:47 PM
3

It's possible to both make an opportunity and whine about failure.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 11:34 PM
2

How does anyone confirm the second half of that definition?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 11:12 PM
2

Does basic empathy often survive middle school for the guys told crying is pussy shit?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 11:10 PM
5

It's the same underlying logic that paints incels as volcels unless they have settled for even the most unsatisfying sexual encounters to ascend. Or the idea that you're choosing your fate unless you've done everything short of crime to get laid.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 11:05 PM
6

Hell yeah! I love a discussion on the burden of proof in debate spaces. This is my favorite thread so far.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 10:45 PM
1

Casual sex by definition requires a level of baseline compassion and connection with others. Sex doesn't happen without intimacy.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 10:28 PM
1

I do. Regularly. Just like I'm telling you how you've scaffolded your flawed conclusions with poor logic.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 09:29 PM
1

Which represents a problem, because they don't come to logical conclusions about men
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 09:18 PM
1

Sure. I'd call that being a friend.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 09:05 PM
1

That's the same argument redpillers make about the truth of female nature. You realize this, right?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 07:05 PM
2

Sex for reproduction and sex for connection both facilitate survival. Having a sense of community and understanding builds prosocial behaviors
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 06:34 PM
1

And that's an appeal to purity
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 06:26 PM
1

No. It's not. It's your feelings on the subject
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 06:18 PM
1

"It is in men's nature to be opportunistic users."
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 06:09 PM
1

And now we've moved onto appeals to nature... Do you do stretches before you begin your gymnastics, or is this just as natural as breathing to you? Because you're not engaging any claims that aren't directly critical of your dispairingly shallow analysis of OP's situation.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 05:48 PM
1

You're filling the blanks in with your own prejudices, boss. Did you ask OP what memories he valued, or are you assuming the only fond memories he has are of him reaping the benefits of a relationship as opposed to investing in it himself?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 05:39 PM
2

What makes that an objective standard, as opposed to your arbitrary designation of value?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 05:37 PM
1

"They were friends, they hung out constantly, and talked about things they wouldn't share with anyone else. She could have, at some point, communicated that this was for fun and wouldn't lead anywhere else. But she knew that if she did, his heart would close off and she wouldn't have consistent support and validation anymore and she would need to seek it elsewhere." How are you not seeing the obvious parallels in incongruent expectation?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:59 PM
2

Ooooooh no- you didn't say shit about perception of superiority. You said that one is inherently better than the other, which is a far more contentious statement People don't need to care overmuch about perception of morality, but things get wierd when people start to argue for the moral superiority of a lifestyle when morality is as vapid a construction of worth as any other currency.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:53 PM
2

Thought terminating clichés And ableism? We're reaching pinnacles of rational thought never seen before aren't we? Does your inability to imagine other reasons for something mean those reasons don't exist?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:50 PM
2

"The only reason," is an incredible thought-terminating cliche. It's like you're not engaging with the argument at all because it offends you to see a value system that doesn't match yours.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:46 PM
1

Introducing her to his family is a communication of value. He never expressed any intentions beyond that, so presuming marriage was on the table is akin to presuming sex was on the table just because a lady opened up a little too much to a guy friend she was trusting with emotional intimacy. It's not stringing someone along to be comfortable in ambiguity. I'm too autistic to settle for such a Grey space, but that's not condemning anyone who doesn't wear "not looking for marriage" on their forehe…
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:43 PM
1

They need to understand that accepting a gift is not the same as signing a contract it seems. It seems more like OP's intentions were an expression of value, not intention.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:37 PM
2

Marriage is not an evolutionary feature. It's a legal one. Just like the nuclear family is a cultural distinction, and not an evolutionary one. I agree that kids are good, but kids are not the only, or even the most common outcome of sex or marriage. It's irrational to say casual sex is worse than marriage "because children grow better under two caretakers than one."
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:34 PM
1

to most people they are Those aren't my words, boss.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:30 PM
2

Then it becomes a little difficult to declare what his responsibilities are to how that dynamic broke down in my opinion.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:23 PM
1

If you're making the claim that "because most people believe this, it is the correct belief to hold," then you're using the bandwagon fallacy.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:20 PM
1

What was OP's goal in the relationship he described in this post?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 04:14 PM
8

Might reduce the amount of summary executions they commit in the line of duty
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 03:49 PM
2

I mean to say, is people collectively deciding that children aren't a gift worth producing an inherent part of a postgender society? Will people stop desiring kids if they're no longer expected to make them because of wierd ideals of womanly duty?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 03:27 PM
0

What was OP's actual goal?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 03:25 PM
0

A bandwagon fallacy isn't substantial grounds to form a logical framework. Stop trying to impose standards that serve nobody.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 03:07 PM
1

There's a world of difference between "took me seriously," and "was considering marriage" Those aren't identical sentiments.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:58 PM
1

Then why would that standard change when nobody's expected to get pregnant for the continuation of humanity?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:54 PM
1

There's a difference between "perfectly natural," and "not unreasonable," in my opinion. But again not all friendships turn sexual just like not all relationships lead to marriage. The expectations are seldom obligations in that sense, and it's the responsibility of the expecting to seek clarification since they're the one imposing a standard on the dynamic.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:53 PM
2

I guess I'm just trying to understand the problem. Do women now only want children because it's their womanly duty or something?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:48 PM
0

I didn't say it was an unreasonable assumption. I said that it's unreasonable to maintain that presumption without at least a cursory effort at clarification. It's at least as arbitrary a distinction as presuming any social dynamic between a man and woman should lead to sex.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:47 PM
0

Should women presume any man who she cooks for is going to propose?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:38 PM
2

I would be strongly inclined to argue that married sex which leads to unwanted kids is significantly worse than casual sex that doesn't. The physical and mental health of a child is often related to how invested the child's caretakers are in raising them, and resentment is something which can stain that kid for their whole life. Even before we get to the conversation on STIs, which are mitigated substantially by just taking safe care of oneself and regular testing, kids themselves aren't part of…
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:36 PM
2

Many women don't want to go through that now.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:29 PM
1

Have you heard of folkways, mores, or taboos? Maybe you've heard of laws? Social and legal restrictions on behavior do exist, and consequences for violating them range from being stigmatized as the wierd kid to being incarcerated for exploring too much freedom at the expense of others. That's just the consequence of existing in a social context.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:24 PM
2

Humans aren't even fully sexually bimodal. Dimorphism is middle-school-level understanding of how sex develops in human beings.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:21 PM
2

Becauae you're arguing in support of their imposition. Saying gender roles are optimal is the same as claiming the expectations associated with each gender are optimal, and people don't particularly have the luxury of setting which expectations are associated with their gender personally.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:18 PM
1

Why should he be obligated to be fair to others if fairness isn't afforded to him in turn?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:11 PM
2

Like he said elsewhere, it's pretty debatable how solid those old standards hold up today. The opinions of most people still aren't necessarily factual statements of seriousness.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:07 PM
2

Why are we conflating single-parent households with casual sex? For that matter, why are we operating under the assumption that marriage immediately means children? These are different claims entirely than marriage vs casual sex, because children are not a consequence of all sexual encounters.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 02:05 PM
–

Supply and demand boss. We've reached a point culturally where the demand of sex, or any intimacy really, from enthusiastic available women has been absolutely eclipsing the supply of women willing to put up with men's collective bullshit, which means that any individual man is going to need to try significantly harder than any of his predecessors to find comparable success in intimate or romantic relations. Guys can adapt to this, sure, but there's vanishingly few adaptations that will satisfy …
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 07:07 AM
1

According to who? I don't recall their being an academic study on the difference in community outcomes between marriage and other intimate relationships.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 05:42 AM
3

I think there's something funny about the arbitrary line between "doing some nice things," and "doing some commitment level things." Why should a guy give someone commitment just because someone puts a bit of domestic labor in the vending machine? Are they entitled to that outcome for some reason?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 05:41 AM
–

Really living up to the name there, Acrobat. Why is it his obligation to clear up a misconception he wasn't even sure she had?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 05:36 AM
1

Why is it his obligation to clear up a confusion that the women built themselves? Wouldn't it be more prudent of them to ask if the relationship was going to go anywhere than to assume he's dating for marriage without evidence?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 03:55 AM
1

Do you mean the prison sentencing disparity that reflects cultural ideals of the moral worth of a man's capacity for unrestrained violence? The disparity that directly reflects ideals of a woman's capacity for danger as being inferior to the masculine ideal? I'm not exactly sure it's a compliment of women to be considered too delicate for honest punishment of crimes committed, boss.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 03:53 AM
4

The point of comparison is "putting in work towards an outcome that was not confirmed to be on the table by your partner to begin with."
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 01:27 AM
4

It sounds like OP understands both issues are identical, and is frustrated at the idea that sex is seen as a more contemptible outcome than marriage. It's not that he doesn't get what frustrated his ex, but more that her frustration is seen as justifiable, while his is seen as crass.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 01:09 AM
3

Yeah, a lot of the fuckzone discourse really does boil down to incongruence between what people desire out of a relationship.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 12:45 AM
7

That does seem to be the sentiment, no?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 12:44 AM
9

My condolences boss. It's always a rough feeling to begin the process of investing in a relationship where your partner doesn't share the same intentions for the relationship that you do. The thing a lot of people will say is that there's supposed to be some kind of premeditated discussion of what a relationship is supposed to be before you fall into that trap.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 12:30 AM
–

What is the value of a human being?
/r/PurplePillDebate21/07/26 12:16 AM
1

You're free to leave whenever you want, but I think it's worth pointing out the difference between an argument someone presents, and a position they hold. If someone makes the claim that "working for free is valuable even if you don't find value in it," it'd be strange to let such a claim stand on its face in any circumstance. Somehow guys chronically distrusting mental health professionals, especially professionals they pay to perform a service, seems to be read as some kind of exception to thi…
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 10:22 PM
1

You've got a very strange assessment of my ability to build relationships with others, lady.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 10:13 PM
1

Certainly?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:30 PM
–

If emotionally stunted men got left behind, women wouldn't be foolish enough to stumble into abusive relationships. There's too many variables to make that conclusion definitively.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:27 PM
–

Are you saying that wives don't benefit from the work they do to maintain their home? It's not my fault they don't value their indentured domestic servitude to the same extent their husband does.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:19 PM
1

Is desirability actually measured?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:10 PM
1

I'd spend some more time examining what actual violence is before making any wild claims about what kind of violence is objectively worse. It also might be practical to try and engage with arguments that refute yours instead of filing them into simple thought-terminating boxes. It closes the mind.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:09 PM
1

And now you're toying with the definition of what it means to start a fight. I'm all for embracing nuance, but the first step is acknowledging that objectivity is a poor metric in this arena.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:01 PM
1

Is your position now that verbal abuse is a perfectly acceptable thing to impose on a partner so long as it never progresses to physical assault? Would you extend that standard to emotional or financial abuse?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:57 PM
1

Victim blaming are we?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:53 PM
1

No. I'm saying that an objective determination for which one is more violent breaks down the moment a situation gets more complex than "who threw the first punch?" A guy in a relationship where he's constantly being yelled at is a guy in a violent relationship, and that relationship doesn't become more violent the moment he lashes out physically.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:42 PM
1

You're the one claiming there's a difference between starting and perpetuating a fight. I'm just interrogating the implications of that choice.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:32 PM
1

Right, maybe I should have clarified. What does it mean To You?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:28 PM
9

Oh shit are we dunking on the Wilson couple!? Hell yeah!
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:26 PM
1

That wasn't the claim I'm disputing though. There's a world of difference between Screaming at a doormat, and yelling at someone who'll slap you for raising your voice. The idea that starting both of those fights is an equal act is something I consider questionable.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:24 PM
2

Maybe you should explain what it means to listen, because it sounds like you're operating on a completely separate definition of the term than many others would consider. For example, I define listening as the ability to hear someone, and meaningfully engage with the ideas they've presented.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:19 PM
2

Both are starting a fight.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:10 PM
2

Common sense isn't objective, and logic is contingent on its goals. Logically, it's fallacious to assume that starting a fight leads to no consequences especially if violence was on the table to begin with.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:06 PM
4

Objectively? By what metric?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:59 PM
5

Does listening necessitate obeying?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:55 PM
–

And women get oh so much exercise and training when they pick up the slack around the house. Widows and divorcees really should see the value in building those valuable job skills.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:31 PM
1

Did you catch that deliberate conflation? That lingering scent of hypocrisy? Guys didn't think it was possible to rape their wives once upon a time, so it makes sense that society's understanding of the term has had to grow and change with time.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:05 PM
1

Are we arguing that uncompensated labor is a good thing here?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 08:29 AM
3

That's a problem for you to solve boss. I'm not here to convince you of anything but the influence of money in interpersonal relationships, and how that can put real strain on interpersonal dynamics.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 07:24 AM
1

I feel like a nonzero part of this conversation is the point where capitalism meets patriarchy, and the power that comes from being able to access wealth in relation to needing to acquire it from the mercy of your domestic partner.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:51 AM
11

No, yes, yes, and because I'm not especially adept at hearing all the ways I'm wrong for perceiving reality and adjusting my perception on the spot to match an ideal that looks incomprehensible from any angle.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 06:23 AM
1

It really isn't.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:59 AM
12

I've been in therapy for upwards of two decades, and it has done very little for me towards the happiness and fulfillment angle.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:58 AM
2

Which is distinct from the topic of the thread.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 05:00 AM
3

No? The fallibility of a scientist doesn't detract from their decades of study in a given field.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 03:47 AM
2

No. I was discussing the utility of making a rule for how people should conduct themselves, and then expecting others to follow it while you refuse to. Men's motivations are a completely separate conversation from how to motivate men to abide your rules.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 02:59 AM
2

Are you talking to someone else? I'm not sure there's a throughline between my sentiment and yours.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 02:41 AM
2

I don't think women are a prize for abiding hypocrisy. I'm not sure that's the type of world I'd like to advocate for.
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 12:31 AM
2

And what do I want?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 12:23 AM
2

Which leads us back to the first point. Why should someone follow the standards set by someone unwilling to follow those standards themselves?
/r/PurplePillDebate20/07/26 12:14 AM
7

Bonus points if she responds to being told how foolish these arguments sound by saying "guys are just allergic to accountability."
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 10:20 PM
6

That wasn't the premise lily. Are you more popular than Trump?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 10:05 PM
2

Ahhhh masking, the ultimate act of taking accountability for your fundamental flaws. I hate it here.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 10:03 PM
10

Get your popcorn brother. This is the same song we've heard a dozen times, and it's no more persuasive now than it was last week.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 09:42 PM
4

It's basically her primary rhetorical strategy.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 09:41 PM
2

By that logic the women's suffrage movement was unsuccessful, as was the confederacy.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 09:10 PM
1

A potato is inherently useful. They are a food product. Even if you aren't hungry, someone in the world is. Likewise, people are inherently valuable, even if they don't ship of theseus themselves into something desirable to others. Within the context of a relationship, I don't trust the premise that people need to prove their worth, because that implies that people can be found worthless
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 09:07 PM
1

Why did you ask me to repeat myself if you're going to complain that we're going in circles? Hell, the moment I started engaging with your examples you bemoaned the idea that there was anything worth interrogating within them, so I'm not quite sure what exactly you're expecting from me beyond slavish supplication to the absurd.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:59 PM
1

Yes it is. Value is vague to the point of incherence.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:32 PM
1

What is value?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:30 PM
1

The only things I need to do are be black and die. I know how to provide value, i just disagree with it from first principles.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:19 PM
1

That would make the thought-termination easier, wouldn't it?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:08 PM
2

I'm under the impression that the access to safe abortions has been directly impacted by removing that access from federal jurisdiction, yes.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:59 PM
2

I wonder why there are no cases of a doctor being charged for a crime when they're beholden to institutions that'll be held liable if the doctor acts without their say-so? It's a mystery, a real headscratcher. It couldn't possibly be that acting illegally would put someone's job at risk.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:47 PM
2

Yep. Taken a step further, I'll even agree that the structure of the Duluth model doesn't help nearly as much as people believed it would. That said, "rape is forced penetration," is a standard that puts far less people at risk than "you're not allowed to abort this fetus until all medical professionals are 100% certain your life is at risk."
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:39 PM
3

I agree that cops are shit.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:33 PM
2

We're post roe dude. Half the country thinks it's acceptable for women to risk their lives giving birth to ectopic pregnancies before considering it acceptable to abort
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:19 PM
1

I'm moving inch by inch. Abuse is wildly subjective Struggle is wildly subjective There's a pattern here
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 06:54 PM
1

Abuse is a term who's definition has expanded quite significantly in modern times.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 06:41 PM
-1

Like I said. It sounds like feminists are catching up.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 06:31 PM
1

Such as?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 06:02 PM
1

Knowing how words are used is important in effectively communicating with people. You should consider it yourself.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 06:01 PM
1

Please use an argument more complex than an appeal to definitions. Language describes phenomena, it doesn't define it.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:44 PM
1

Feelings aren't an especially accurate metric for the sustainability of a relationship. Any abuse victim can tell you that much. And any abuser would leap at the chance to say the same.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:44 PM
1

I am on the spectrum, and I genuinely don't understand how you cannot see the hypocrisy in calling my thinking rigid while you're reducing the full spectrum of human behavior into "either adds or subtracts value" How does that sound coherent?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:38 PM
2

The entirety of the civil rights movement.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:36 PM
1

Some
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:26 PM
2

I'd disagree. Furthermore it's foolish to expect anyone to follow a standard you're uninterested in upholding yourself
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:12 PM
–

You asked why should you care. I answered. Does your partner have no interest in how you treat others, or how others consider you?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:51 PM
2

Is "so many" men "all of them?"
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:35 PM
1

We covered this already. Guys put up with getting things they don't desire all the time. That's a normal human thing.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:33 PM
2

People behave morally all the time for amoral reasons. They're convinced by logic, the whims of their own emotions, or the presence of an authority, or even just a matter of habit. The idea that you being ass at convincing people is evidence that they'll only yield to force is a self report.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:30 PM
1

An inflexible schema falls short consistently, but that's a problem of inflexibility, not of having the framework itself. Knowing what works for regular people does not meaningfully improve the odds for irregulars.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:28 PM
2

There's a difference between being justifiable and being persuasive. How many people will you convince of a position that you don't adhere to?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:26 PM
2

It's the same outcome really. "Take accountability for the worth you bring to a relationship" is rhetorically idententical to "become a high value man to get anywhere romantically"
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:25 PM
1

Hung up?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:21 PM
2

And why is it our responsibility to cater to your insecurities?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:19 PM
3

There's remarkably little one can do about the insecurities of others. If you don't want to feel watched, cultivate a sense of apathy.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:17 PM
3

If we agree that judging and hating is wrong. And we agree that people know it's wrong. Why are we of the opinion that you should do something just because others are doing it? Do you plan on picking up a shoplifting habit anytime soon?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:16 PM
-2

This is why it's important to understand how systemic belief in the value of women as objects is directly responsible for putting men in positions where they're expected to be more responsible. Imprisonment is a misogyny issue, because it's commonly believed that men are more violent even when women are pushed to similar acts. The draft is a misogyny issue, because the capacity to enact violence is a societal standard held to men, with the presumption that women are objects to be protected and f…
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:15 PM
–

Because dating is a social activity, and that means it will necessarily require interfacing with groups outside of your partner, such as your partner's friend group, or family, or your own social network, or any other person capable of directly interfering in your success.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:09 PM
1

We already established that you don't agree that everyone deserves to be treated like a person. That's completely different from discerning what the popular opinion is, which would still be succumbing to the bandwagon fallacy as opposed to discerning a logical principle. Furthermore, your descriptions of entitlement and a lack of accountability are beyond detrimental to the organization of society. It would be bad for people to start dancing to your tune because you routinely advocate for people…
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:07 PM
3

Women have built an entire movement around why that shit isn't cool
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 03:59 PM
2

I didn't say it was a contradiction. I said it was a concession. If you're gonna be upset about people being upset that you're doing something that you do sometimes, I don't think the argument to make is "well, I don't do it all the time-" If OP's argument was "well men do it too," I'd still roll my eyes at the idea that men and women are held to anywhere near the same moral and cultural standard, or even that they should be at this particular stage of the game, but at best this comes across as …
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:39 AM
6

OP even said they themselves are a participant in the behavior they claim doesn't happen. Once that concession was made, any nuance was just haggling over whether or not people should be irritated by another person's choices. I left my thought police badge in my burner account, so right now I'm just not feeling the need to hold everyone to an arbitrary moral standard for the sake of this poster's comfort.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:31 AM
1

Most people don't make an accurate schema for the typical PPD participant to integrate into their own lives. Most people aren't here, so their experiences living charmed lives of effortless normalcy aren't particularly useful as a point of comparison.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:25 AM
8

Are you of the opinion that slutshaming is a good thing for society? If so, fire away. Be the change you want to see in the world. Here's hoping you build some cultural momentum towards your ideal society. I'm not particularly fond of the practice, myself, because I think sex-negativity generally leads to more problems downstream, like poor access to information on reproductive health, or a culture that justifies cruel treatment of sex workers, or even just a society that pressures women into be…
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:18 AM
1

A cohesive worldview should account for all possibilities, because outliers happen. A homeless person can be an adult, and a homeless person can find love. Teens, seniors, the disabled, the unemployed, all demographics capable of dating and even some degree of romantic success despite a variable relationship with the standard of "being an adult."
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:12 AM
2

In general, a guy who has no friends that are women reads to you as a guy who cannot make friends with women for some reason?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 08:02 AM
8

Hi there. Man in disagreement. I'm fine being the househusband. If I want a child of a working woman, I am at least aware enough of our social dynamic to understand that a solid support network is needed to keep the burden of childcare at a manageable level. The degree to which that burden is distributed amongst me, my partner, or what community I have at my disposal is open to negotiation once rubber hits road, but I'm not so arrogant to demand a mommy bangmaid without reservation.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:52 AM
4

But like, a red flag generally, to all women, or a red flag to you, the current representative of all women? Personally as long as Epstein has a wife, I'm hard-pressed to call the presence or absence of lady friends damning evidence of someone's danger.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:45 AM
3

It sounds like a personal judgement moreso than any reasoned argument. "This is a red flag because it makes me think these things about the men who engage in this behavior," isn't really something worth disputing any more than someone's taste in footwear.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:43 AM
1

What is the debatable premise here?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:38 AM
1

Even if that were a true claim, which it's not for a number of reasons, non-adults date and find love consistently.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 07:35 AM
2

You're free to believe what you want, and I'm not particularly interested in convincing you one way or another. Whatever opinions you form on my conduct aren't really worth thinking about.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:22 AM
1

Why would I do that?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:17 AM
1

Nah. I don't care about your opinion enough to consider your feelings on the subject.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:12 AM
1

I'll be sure to give yours the consideration its worth.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:08 AM
1

You asked for an example of where your ideas would be in contradiction. I'm not here to convince you to care, only to explain why it's particularly foolish not to do so. Antisocial personality traits aren't quite in high demand on the dating market from what I gather.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:04 AM
0

What a delightful privilege to be able to date in any social class, let alone one's own. I cannot imagine the amount of work that goes into achieving such an outcome, and doing it for free? Goddamn someone's positively rolling in executive function.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 05:02 AM
3

Are they? By the estimations of OP, they seem to be constructing a completely separate game all by themselves and whatever sad bastard is willing to forsake themselves in order to get a seat at the table.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:53 AM
1

And does that disregard increase or decrease his capacity to build a rapport, develop a friendship, or explore the possibility of a relationship with his type, this theoretical cosplay baddie he seems to be pursuing? Does apathy sound like an especially useful strategy in that arena?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:51 AM
3

Say your archetypal comic book nerd goes to a convention to meet a cosplaying baddie. His type is someone who shares his interests if not his tastes, but he is uncompromisingly determined to meet someone on his terms. He fills his schedule to the brim the entire convention, determined to put himself in the proximity of as many cosplayers, needs, artists, and similar aficionados in the hopes that he'll find The One, or someone close enough. He does this multiple times a year, for multiple convent…
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:40 AM
4

There is a difference between "babies with no agency whatsoever," and "willing participants in a game that requires two players to start."
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:31 AM
1

Do you see the contradiction between "put yourself in places and opportunities to meet people who meet those standards," and "it's not practical to measure your worth in the opinions of those people?"
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:28 AM
0

The point of the question is to find a strict, measurable, achievable path towards romantic success without relying on such a vapid platitude as "keep working on yourself and it'll happen eventually." I'm not the biggest fan of any argument that could be used to justify buying scratch-offs at a local corner store. "Just keep buying in-" is one of the biggest offenders.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:22 AM
–

Those opinions will directly impact your dating pool though? How other people think about you and your romantic viability directly translates to how often other people will consider you a viable romantic partner, or at the very least someone worth recommending to others. It's a practical concern to measure your worth in the gaze of others.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:20 AM
2

Did I say trauma dumping? No, my accusation is very simply that you think "I'm fine," a textbook lie of omission, is grounds to question a relationship.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:18 AM
1

How much investment guarantees that result?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 04:16 AM
–

The topic of how much caring about others matters?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 03:18 AM
–

Too dependent? I mean, if the options were to care too much about what other people think versus not caring at all, I'd argue that it's healthier to lean towards basic consideration of others than absolute contempt. It's not like the rest of the world has too much of a popular conception for people with antisocial personality disorders. There's not a lot in the way of moral consideration for people who are generally unwilling or incapable of extending the same courtesy to others.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 02:49 AM
–

Because to live in constant disregard of the standards of others is a quick and easy way to be stigmatized.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 02:39 AM
0

Huh, so it is. I guess I do need to adjust my position. Feminists are playing catch up it looks like.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 02:37 AM
1

The opinion by most scholars is that everyone is oppressed under patriarchy.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 02:00 AM
2

Hi there, feminist weighing in on the cultural outputs of misandry and misogyny. Misandry has not written laws, sat in a government office, held power more significant than a particularly ruthless mother-figure, while Misogynistic people have held power long enough to adjudicate whether or not women deserve control over their own body, or whether or not people who have changed their name, through marriage or transition, deserve the right to vote. The average internet douchebag saying women don't…
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 01:57 AM
1

And the solution is to adopt a different set of beliefs?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 01:52 AM
1

It's important to note that beliefs only have a limited influence on outcomes.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 01:14 AM
1

I find myself inclined to reiterate my initial premise.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 01:12 AM
1

I can imagine plenty of guys succeed without considering their worth. It's likely unquestionable to a select privileged few.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 01:10 AM
1

And now the equation changes. It's not just "are you valuable?" It's "are you worth more than you cost?"
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 01:09 AM
3

Or, it leads to consistent incongruence when the reasons one might consider themselves desirable fail to result in any meaningful romantic success. Knowing one's strengths means fuck and all when those strengths aren't regarded as desirable enough to merit a relationship.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 12:29 AM
1

The condition of the lies isn't quite as important as the acceptance of the lie. "I'll only accept white lies in circumstances where the truth is socially unacceptable," is an acceptance of white lies.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 12:28 AM
1

Untrue. People are fully capable of being contributions and drains in equal measure.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 12:22 AM
3

If I'm in a relationship with someone, I'm sharing the best parts of myself, because the worst parts are what have routinely led to relationships breaking down in the past.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 12:21 AM
1

You'll accept white lies
/r/PurplePillDebate19/07/26 12:20 AM
2

I'm not? I'm saying that it is weird to dump somebody for not sharing immediately.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 11:33 PM
3

Read what I said again. Dumping someone for not sharing their emotional burdens.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 11:30 PM
1

You're shifting language again. There is a different between "wanting" something, and "settling" for something. The idea that guys "only want," Stacy is perfectly compatible with the idea that guys are "willing to settle" for non-stacy. Interest doesn't enter that equation
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 10:16 PM
1

And what affords them the authority to set that standard?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 10:14 PM
1

Which is why I remain cynical when claims are made about innate sexual behaviors. Especially when there's not even consensus around which behaviors are genetically pre-programmed versus socially reinforced.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:57 PM
1

Sure you can. It's called settling.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:55 PM
1

What people want, and what they're willing to accept, aren't the same thing
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:39 PM
1

So I have to address the biological essentialism huh... damn. Where in our biology textbooks has this innate lizardbrain impulse been discussed?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:19 PM
2

Women have also been told that anyone worth loving would see them through their worst presentation. The whole "if you wouldn't love me at my bog witch you don't deserve me at my goddess" line of dialogue is specifically tailored to assuage a woman's insecurities and self-worth issues. There is no comparable parable for masculinity, because manhood is always in question.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:17 PM
1

Innately? Ignoing the biological essentualism for a second, I'd like to point out that women's "innate" choice in fashion is very often more self-expression than mating strategy. Hell, depending on who you ask, women claim they'd dress even more provocatively if they didn't have to care about what the men around them thought. This isn't them improving for the sake of a partner, it's them choosing to express themselves regardless of who looks.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:15 PM
1

Which is a significantly better world than what's being advocated for here.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:13 PM
1

Who's defining readiness here?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:12 PM
1

People settle all the time.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 09:11 PM
1

You seem to disbelieve me whenever I say every human, without exception, is worthy of love, respect, and being treated like a human. I don't compromise on that conviction even when I recognize that people need to be stopped from harming others.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 08:15 PM
10

How many women need to self-improve to get a partner?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 08:13 PM
1

Assuming a lack of material support as evidence of bringing no value to a relationship is dangerously close to capitalist realism in my opinion. It's like two steps away from saying that men need to have financial leverage in order to try dating to begin with.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 07:57 PM
1

Heterofatalists hold disgust and desire in the same breath
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 07:35 PM
3

Most people aren't particularly adept at recognizing systems of oppression, so I don't hold judgement on their inability to recognize their own impulses upholding that system. Feminists, or people who engage with the theoretical frameworks feminism proports, should be capable of recognizing the way their arguments reinforce hierarchical thinking. To do otherwise is to exist in alignment with those heirarchies, to reinforce their structures against the goals of the feminist project. Designating a…
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 07:26 PM
2

I'm sorry dawg. It's rough going when you feel unmoored.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:54 PM
2

I would say that there's value in joy. The ability to give back to your community, and to enjoy doing so, is a valuable quality. I really struggled to do the same when I was going through my internship, because even though I could cognitively grasp that I was doing good, it didn't feel like I was doing anything worthwhile or valuable.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:50 PM
3

I dispute the premise that it's possible to bring no value to a relationship. Relationships are inherently valuable for their experience.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:46 PM
7

Compatibility is valuable. Arguing to build or foster or seek Compatibility is one thing. This is not an argument to find a romantic match, or a person who values you. It's to build and kneel in supplication to an arbitrary standard which cannot be held across the breadth of human experiences. It builds a hierarchy in the same way patriarchy or capitalism builds a hierarchy, by expecting everyone shackled to these models of constant reshaping and expenditure to somehow Earn a partner. "Become va…
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:45 PM
2

You're volunteering? Even if you could dismiss the judgement of family as biased, volunteer work is by definition an act of giving value to something. To have value to give means something, right?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:36 PM
1

Who do you talk to regularly? Who's in your life who hasn't deliberately chosen distance?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:32 PM
4

Haha, I couldn't imagine dumping someone because they didn't completely unload their emotional burdens when asked.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:27 PM
5

Everyone has a right to react to their problems however they want. That's elementary freedom of choice. Just like you have the freedom to choose to ignore every man who violates your arbitrary standards of personhood, every man has the right to be as obnoxious as they're capable of. Concerning your argument of entitlement, I need to interrogate the idea that it is entitled to believe in inherent human worth, because on the other side of that belief is the justification that it's okay do dehumani…
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 06:12 PM
1

So white lies.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 05:54 PM
0

"My day was fine."
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 05:51 PM
0

You're free to make your own choices, but I implore you to reconsider the value you bring to others.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 05:51 PM
6

Every time we converse, you seem possessed by the idea that whiners are subhuman scum unworthy of basic human interaction unless they can drag themselves into fulfilling an arbitrary script for standard human value. That's not taking accountability for failure, that's imposing a flattening mold on the scope of how humans can exist. It's like applying the Protestant Work Ethic to living. It's a derivative position from your idea that not everyone is worthy of love or respect, and the problems inh…
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 05:35 PM
5

Do you know what a Motte and Bailey defense is? Because I didn't say accountability was the problem, I said that demanding everyone consider what value they bring to their relationships is problematic.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 05:19 PM
8

I didn't say it was your problem. I said your solution was anti-feminist.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 05:10 PM
16

Nothing like advocating for gender equality by making everyone insecure about their worth as a person. Truly the ideal feminist outcome is for men and women alike to swear off relationships because nobody thinks they're worth anything to anyone.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 04:40 PM
0

You seem to have a fairly novel interpretation of what it means to decenter something.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 03:14 AM
1

You're a hero for swan-diving onto that grenade
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 02:21 AM
–

I wasn't accusing you of hypocrisy. I was noting that this argument has been made by women towards men for similar reasons.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 01:57 AM
–

Nothing like a bit of casual hypocrisy to get someone through the night, eh?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 01:51 AM
1

And you'll notice that's not what I said.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 12:28 AM
1

Oh absolutely. There are many risks that women need to bear that guys don't need to worry about. But again, there is a difference between talking about a singular kind of risk that isn't distributed evenly between courtiers and courted.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 12:17 AM
1

I said "that risk" Implying That Specific Issue isn't particularly high up on the list of priorities for women. They've got other problems.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/07/26 12:04 AM
1

I'm genuinely convinced you aren't listening at this point. When did I say that men are the only ones who face risk?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 11:43 PM
3

And you sound like a paragon of reliable council. May all who seek answers prostrate themselves before your incomparable insight.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 11:39 PM
3

I didn't say women aren't capable of experiencing rejection or risk. I said they aren't especially expected to hold onto that specific risk. You're doing the thing again.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 11:36 PM
4

I also don't agree with the expectations of the manosphere as prescriptive statements. The point I am attempting to illustrate is that broadly the onus of initiating and building a relationship is on guys, and taking that risk is broadly something that women don't need to concern themselves with. Outside of cold approaches, the consequences of rejection are worse because of the absolute shitshow that comes with trying to pivot a platonic relationship into anything else. Women broadly don't have …
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 11:13 PM
–

How often were you expected to be the initiator?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 10:58 PM
–

I didn't say it wasn't a challenge for everyone. I said that the challenges are different depending on context. I implore you to engage with what I say instead of who you think I am, because that just illustrates how untrustworthy you are as council.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 10:49 PM
–

Same obstacles? Were you in the habit of being the guy in your relationships?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 10:46 PM
–

More results as someone navigating a completely separate set of obstacles.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 10:43 PM
–

What makes you more trustworthy than a single man with limited results?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 10:30 PM
–

I wouldn't trust a member of the FGC community to give advice on Yomi Hustle unless they're actively playing. A competitive Tekken Player may have some pretty solid experience in playing Tekken, only for their advice to be absolutely useless after a single balance patch or game update or fresh release. Just so with people who are no longer beholden to the rigors of dating.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 10:25 PM
1

Correct.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:47 PM
–

What's so frustrating about semantic drift?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:11 PM
0

What's in my nature is a vastly different arena of conversation from what is in nature.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:21 PM
2

That's a different arena entirely from what someone Wants
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:16 PM
0

Nature doesn't dictate what people should do.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:13 PM
2

That was observable by how your first sentiment was deliberately inflammatory, only to be followed up by a finger-wagging claim about how people really shouldn't get irritated by those claims.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:56 PM
-1

Oh? Are you saying there are complex social mechanisms designed to prevent people from acting as nature dictates? Fascinating. Maybe nature shouldn't define how people conduct themselves.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:55 PM
1

Your priority even in this OP wasn't the act of violence though, it was the "choice" to get offended.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:53 PM
0

Hi there, man singular here, I've never once compared myself to an animal, because I loathe being seen as something other than who I am. I understand why other people are reasonably wary of strangers, and I empathize with a desire to cleanly organize the breadth of the human experience into something easily navigable, but arguments about natural selection or social darwinism are legitimately the worst strategies to that end.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:51 PM
1

So you're still talking about emotions. if you are getting mad because of rejection you are confirming the woman's concerns. Even if a man doesn't take violent action, doesn't openly express his distress, and chooses to act inoffensively, the presence of anger at rejection is proof enough in this body that women should be concerned.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:43 PM
2

I think there's a point of distinction between what a good man wants and what a good man is willing to do. A good man will choose not to lord over someone, even if they still desire power.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:38 PM
-5

Luckily, male geese don't have to worry about something so pesky as consent.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:22 PM
-3

If we're appealing to nature, then at what point can men start treating women the same way geese do?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:17 PM
2

Everyone's love is conditional, women aren't particularly special in this regard.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 04:03 PM
1

How so?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 03:56 PM
–

There is a difference between someone happening to be from a difference culture and you guys hitting it off, and actively hunting down a foreign partner because you're repulsed by your own culture.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 03:49 PM
2

Oh the irony in this one is amazing. I definitely needed this laugh first thing in the morning
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 03:45 PM
1

Every post?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 03:43 PM
–

Depends on the task, doesn't it
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 02:01 PM
3

How do you realistically conclude what aspects are desirable in a culture you've only ever been a tourist in? Where would you develop the context to identify being desired as opposed to merely fetishized?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:48 AM
2

Expecting a request to be fulfilled after having had to repeat said request is different from expecting it to be fulfilled immediately upon being placed. One, I can empathize with. There's an amount of labor that goes into being the person to keep eyes on everything, and having your council ignored multiple times. The other is what I take issue with.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:38 AM
2

In what household is immediate obedience anything but submission to a command?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:31 AM
2

And my point of objection isn't on whether or not guys should show initiative to look after their own home. That's a different topic entirely from what it means to ask someone to do something, and expect it to be done immediately upon your request.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:27 AM
–

Let's take a moment to dive into the merits of searching abroad for love. If we abandon stereotypes, then we're still left with a few questions that can have some well-reasoned conclusions. For example, Why look so far outside of one's own cultural norms and peer groups for a romantic partner? What advantages does this decision provide?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:23 AM
–

Not "all" "Progressive"
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:16 AM
–

Didn't we just agree that stereotypes are bad?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:15 AM
2

The premise is that asking with no intention of being refused or accepting refusal is to give an order. It's a principle that applies broadly. If a guy asked a woman out, and then crashes out when she refuses, he wasn't asking. If a wife asks for some spending money, and decides to sulk when she's refused, she wasn't asking. If a woman asks her husband to take out the trash, and he says "I'll take care of it after dinner," only for her to penalize him for not acting immediately upon her request,…
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:15 AM
–

Effort is a subjective metric. There is no measurable unit for how much mental energy it takes to put oneself out there, face tank a rejection, and roll on to the next attempt.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:08 AM
2

Ooh, now we're adding details to the scenario you already refused to engage with? Methinks you're deflecting from the premise.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:05 AM
–

Dating apps are shit. We live in a society where women see wild animals as less dangerous than men. Guys no longer have the same capacity to offer social or economic security as they were obligated to even a half-century ago, there are less places to meet in public, there are no scripts for achieving contemporary romantic success, the list goes on, and the market crash you're describing may well be upon us with the increasing tension between the cultural standards of men and women. It's depressi…
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:04 AM
2

The principle doesn't change in either context. The difference between an ask and an order is the ability to refuse without sanction. If you ask someone for anything, and they face consequences for refusal, you're not asking.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 06:00 AM
–

You're right. I should chosen a better sequence of words to describe the issue I take for guys shopping out of the country for "love." Sorry about that. My point is that shopping abroad for a culture more aligned to a guy's interest in domestic hierarchy, in looking for a traditional submissive wife (specifically when contrasted against those uppity western whores) indicates some issues I would consider incompatible with a mutually loving relationship.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:59 AM
3

It becomes an order if the expectation is an immediate response. Asking someone for a dollar is harmless, but if they can't say no it becomes extortion.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:54 AM
–

Many people agreeing with something doesn't make it a fact. That's an appeal to popularity, and hypergamy isn't an especially popular framework for a number of reasons. Additionally, most people in the west panicking about birthrates and replacement levels have some fairly impractical ideas concerning immigration and cultural hegemony that I'd personally rather see go extinct. With regards to finding love, real, genuine, human connection with a peer who understands and regards me as an equal, I …
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:52 AM
1

Can it? What is your response to being obliged less than immediately?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:47 AM
–

Peerage.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:45 AM
–

I'm not sure becoming a passport bro is an economically feasible solution to the average guy living check to check. Hell, I'm not even sure outsourcing romantic interest to people who cannot share your cultural framework is a healthy dynamic given how closely it mirrors other hierarchical frameworks of exploitation. Do you have an answer that doesn't involve exporting your interest to a party incapable of meaningfully defying you?
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:44 AM
2

There seems to be some incongruence between how people define "urgent"
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:41 AM
2

If you intend for the ask to be responded to with immediate acquiescence, then it's an order. An ask can be refused.
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:39 AM
–

I wonder how much of this comes from socialization. Because it sounds like you're describing a pretty common point of frustration over how relationships stereotypically develop without really digging into the possible exceptions, or avenues of reform. What alternative scripts would benefit the population that, by your own admission, isn't interested in dating or romance or relationships as much as men? Because to me, I'm not sure there's a way to reconcile the sense of desire for another person …
/r/PurplePillDebate17/07/26 05:30 AM
5

Living in honest pain is a better life than living under an anesthetic lie.
/r/PurplePillDebate16/07/26 02:06 AM
3

Yeah, that reads like cult shit, boss. "Only you can choose to accept the radiance of God into your heart," does not a compelling argument make for denying the evidence of one's eyes and ears.
/r/PurplePillDebate16/07/26 02:03 AM
3

And the ones without?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/07/26 01:57 AM
3

At what point does a child become responsible for their own self-sufficiency? Because I'm not sure you can draw a clear line of demarcation between "boy, worthy of moral consideration," and "man, oppressor."
/r/PurplePillDebate16/07/26 01:57 AM
3

This is a pretty cruel situation to describe. Does nobody help others in this world of yours? Is it unreasonable to request guidance or aid from those who are in a position to do so?
/r/PurplePillDebate16/07/26 01:55 AM
4

Prostitution predates feminism.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 10:32 PM
2

What is real love in your estimation?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 10:31 PM
17

Some people aren't interested in understanding the cause so much as they're eager to see a change in effect. The only thing I can see in this premise worth disputing is the question of what to do with this knowledge
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 09:56 PM
1

You're right that I'm being somewhat presumptuous as to what your material conditions are. I can't really see you to judge. However, I'm not attacking you by calling your position hypocritical, I'm selecting the most reasonable conversation to have with what information is available. I chose to argue hypocrisy because that's genuinely a much easier conversation to have than the absolute mire that is "who the fuck decides what disgusting is?" I don't like getting bogged down in topicality argumen…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:48 PM
1

I'm not attacking you, I'm saying that your standpoint is hypocritical. Being selectively outraged at men for taking pleasure in devaluation is by definition a hypocritical position so long as you maintain any position of power or security as a resident of the imperial core. So long as your comfort is contingent on the harm of others, you're no better than a man taking pleasure at your expense. If you're currently benefiting from a hierarchy, then it's an inconsistent moral value to be revolted …
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:39 PM
0

Reduction into absurdity? No, the very specific point I am making is that the standard for "disgusting and psychopathic," that you set without any academic credentials applies to far more pressing fields than guys fumbling women. Unless you've got that same energy for the multiple genocides occurring, the constant exploitation of the working class under the current market factors, the casual cruelty of politicians who can write off entire constituencies with a pen, or any other example of people…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:24 PM
2

It is within the legal rights of someone to be annoying. It won't make one annoying person disappear if three more annoying people groan whenever the first one walks into the room. That only means I have to deal with four annoying people when I could've convinced one to chill the fuck out. That's not "coddling," that's called "intervention."
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:13 PM
0

Now that's a standard that could be applied to far more circumstances than the casual cruelty of men. Vegans make that argument. Degrowthers make that argument. The idea that "being willing to defile and devalue someone for their own pleasure is fucked up," maps pretty cleanly to damn-near every extractive social mechanism of the common era.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:11 PM
1

I'm arguing for holding people accountable by explaining how you are failing to do so. You can't call people to action if they don't feel motivated by your words. You can't convince someone to reflect on themselves if you're too untrustworthy to be considered. To hold someone accountable, they need to be willing to work with you, and I'm not even convinced you have friends at this point.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:08 PM
1

All this to illustrate a point, Babel. The point is, to hold someone accountable, they must regard you as capable of doing so in the first place. If there is not a baseline level of trust between parties, what weight does any judgement between them have?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 03:03 PM
2

Because there are more substantial strategies for reducing the amounts of Karen energy in the world than screaming into cyberspace like you're heralding the rapture, like talking to Karens and figuring out what their deal is instead of ragebaiting in the semikaren argument wall. It's a matter of praxis, of intentionally encouraging an outcome, as opposed to posting a half-formed thesis on a debate subreddit. If the goal is to "hold men accountable," then the strategy must necessarily facilitate …
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:59 PM
-1

Did you ask for something substantial, or did you leap right to erroneous accusation of fallacy? Because a more serious critique of your sentiment would be the presumption that guys consciously revel in the devaluation of women as opposed to having not fully mapped out the beliefs of sex and intimacy that they've internalized via being around other people. It's really strange to draw the conclusion that men as a demographic take joy in the defilement of others.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:47 PM
2

And how impactful is this strategy? There probably aren't many longitudinal studies on the impact of organized women's labor in South Korea yet to pick through, but I'm curious nonetheless.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:45 PM
2

Who are you holding accountable here? Who's going to see this and go "ah, that LilithOfBabylon lady has a point actually. I should start policing all my boys and changing my presentation to appeal to women because it really is all my fault?" Because again, I'm not arguing against accountability, I'm arguing against your ability to hold anyone accountable.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:43 PM
0

I was not attacking you as a person, I was explaining the failure of calling something psychopathic as a rhetorical tool. An ad hominem would be calling you too much of a dumbass to make a respectable point, and I'm very distinctly not doing that.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:40 PM
2

I mean they probably could if they lived in regular proximity to each other, but again, that's an issue of sharing community, not checking someone because you share a chromosome. Again, the issue isn't "nobody's holding these people accountable," it's that you don't have the motion to hold anybody accountable. Nobody trusts your judgement enough to reflect on when you accuse them of being the source of all their woes. If nothing else, you can't expect people to receive your council if it's alway…
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:38 PM
0

Psychopathic is an obnoxious colloquialism. I don't think anybody who uses the word has even a passing knowledge of the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:27 PM
4

Accountability is something that can only be imposed by power structures or communities. If you're not in a position to make someone reflect on themselves, then all you're really doing is grandstanding from a soapbox.
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:23 PM
4

How does that mesh with the environments wherein a woman's only meaningful advantage is their ability to play into what men want? Are waitresses skimping out on tips for the sake of political leverage, or are the only meaningful changes placed on matters of love and romance?
/r/PurplePillDebate15/07/26 02:22 PM
–

I think there's a rhetorical difference between "failed to download" and "wasn't installed." Women are broadly socialized to believe that someone, maybe even the right person, will find them eventually if they just stay resilient and keep it pushing. Guys don't get that lesson. They're told from birth that its their obligation to pursue, court, woo, and wed, lest they become failures to themselves, their families, and their community. The stakes just aren't the same even when you acknowledge the…
/r/PurplePillDebate14/07/26 06:22 PM
2

You just used another appeal to purity there, can you spot it? I'll give you a hint, it ends with "-if you really care." I really care about a bunch of things I don't have the time or energy to pursue. The depth of my caring isn't measured by the amount of labor I spend projecting that care outwards.
/r/PurplePillDebate14/07/26 01:11 AM
3

If you're trapped in binary thinking, no wonder you default to bootstraps in all circumstances. I'm sorry boss. To anyone with basic reading comprehension skills, I would like to point out that fault isn't something that exists solely within a single party when it comes to complicated matters like love and romance. Sometimes the factors that impede someone's romantic success are personal, like a lack of social skills or a dearth of attractiveness. Sometimes it's a matter of time, like having no …
/r/PurplePillDebate14/07/26 12:44 AM
2

Is your definition of "victim complex," any mechanism that justifies a lack of internal work or reflection? Because that's a conversation between you and your therapist, not for a debate between interlocutors. A guy can have a problem, but unless that problem is a prohibiting factor in all cases, the problem isn't the cause of one's failure. That's why I say it's important to look at things systemically, instead of just individually.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/07/26 10:57 PM
3

There you go shadowboxing again. Improvement will do nowhere near enough, which is why I believe guys should involve themselves in pursuing systemic changes to the dating market, not curling up into a ball and submitting to defeat. The Perfect Guy will still face difficulties in the current dating market, so people should think critically about the entire picture, not just their position within it.
/r/PurplePillDebate13/07/26 10:52 PM
4

You keep trying to flatten the conversation into "improvement will do nothing," despite me repeatedly saying improvement will do "nowhere near enough." What's going on here, why are you so emphatically incapable of engaging with what I say instead of your opinions on what I mean?
/r/PurplePillDebate13/07/26 10:46 PM
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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