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milkylake Archive

View 3 posts and 151 comments by milkylake on TheRedPill subreddit and various other subreddits related to The Red Pill community.
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2

Modern Western aesthetic, definitely - no room for variation; everything attractive must be neat, rounded, smooth, and tight.
/r/MensRights20/06/17 05:02 PM
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Sexual assault is a form of torture. Raping a child is even more horrendous than raping and adult, and raping a woman on hormonal contraceptives is just as bad as raping someone not on them. Anal rape is also notorious for causing excruciating pain and physical trauma to the rectum and surrounding organs, so in some instances can cause even more damage than vaginal rape. I still don't really understand what makes you believe Emily Doe consented? All the evidence points to her being unconscious. …
/r/MensRights30/05/17 09:17 AM
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All I found was this a perspective from someone who was falsely accused. Another article explained how California law doesn't count non-penile penetration as rape, so by that definition he was convicted of lesser charges. But I would think the MRM would speak out against that given the implications for sexual abuse/assault of men by women.
/r/MensRights29/05/17 12:50 AM
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Can you link me to some evidence they made it up? I read the victims testimony which was extremely compelling
/r/MensRights28/05/17 10:47 PM
1

Also, in terms of the disproportionate sentencing, etc, I feel like we also need to step back and look at America's industrialized prison system as a whole- and the people/corporations profiteering from it. This is the relentless, neoliberal bullshit that relies on stereotypes of men in order to incarcerate as many of them as possible under the guise of "protecting society" from them. The absolutely fucking ludicrous 'War on Drugs' is a perfect example of this. As you know, so much of what I rea…
/r/MensRights28/05/17 04:28 PM
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Hey again! Thanks for breaking down the unarmed police stats for me, it was an interesting read. The numbers are pretty horrific and represent a serious problem. It wasn't my intention to trivialise the gender gap by bringing up the race gap, either - just that I think Cassie Jaye made a classic white girl feminist mistake in that, not only was the race/gender gap comparison literally the only time she brought up men of colour explicitly, but she also didn't bother to interview any in the doc or…
/r/MensRights28/05/17 03:59 PM
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So I've woken up to this news this morning (one of the victim's colleagues is a mutual friend who alerted me to case. She was strangled, stabbed and probably raped. Unfortunately these sorts of incidents are pretty common here, so we read about them often and it's quite rare a case becomes prominent. Sometimes they do when it's particularly brutal.) But the circumstances about this one made me think back to our conversation about risk. The tragedy, undeniably, is absolute. No one would have expe…
/r/MensRights28/05/17 01:40 PM
2

Again, really made me upset reading this. Like you said, I think a lot of women feel that their looks are regarded in a similar way - once age ravages their beauty, they fear being left for a younger woman. But once you fall in love properly, and become a team, most of that falls a way I think. There is this amazing old couple I know at home who run a supermarket (they've been married probably over 30 years). The husband was paralyzed pretty early on, and then maybe 15 years ago the wife was bli…
/r/MensRights28/05/17 01:03 PM
1

Hey - am heading out now so can't reply just yet but will get back to you shortly. Thanks again - really appreciate your level-headed thoughts on this!
/r/MensRights27/05/17 09:26 AM
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Hey, thanks so much for taking my concerns seriously, taking time to address why your think the the MRM appears on the surface the way it does (esp from the point of view of left wing media) -and not automatically assuming I'm a bigot! I agree that black men have other, as you said more 'fertile", means of advocacy available to them to voice their concerns And white men, especially straight white men, have no such channels through which they can be taken seriously in the mainstream. That's why I…
/r/MensRights27/05/17 09:02 AM
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So, what you're telling men of colour is: "you're welcome in the MRM, but your lived experience of the court system and moving through the world is only relevant so much as I can relate to it as white man? You want to talk to black men about false rape accusations and not allow him to bring up stuff like this ? Come on, this stuff is real. It's not stuff from the past that has been exaggerated. I also found this on A Voice For Men Which is awesome. I don't like that I had to actively look for it…
/r/MensRights27/05/17 08:37 AM
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Hey, thanks for your comment. I just don't really see the logic in deliberately downplaying the race gap, then Cassie Jaye - though, to her credit she spoke briefly to one lady and used a couple of case examples containing circumstances that affected men of color - she never actually interviewed any of them to get their perspective. It had the short-sightedness of white feminism all over it, and welcomed criticism when it needn't have.
/r/MensRights27/05/17 07:30 AM
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I just found another Reddit post, called "why black men can't be MRA's" Someone called Omegaphallic left a reassuring comment, though : There are in fact Black MRAs and I hope for many more as hopefully more black men realized the common male struggle they have with white, asian, FN men, ect... Most people killed by police are men, and most police officers killed are men, and the military meat grinder continues to exploit men and lead to either deaths. Men of all races are falling behind in scho…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 11:34 PM
1

You feel oppressed as a man, don't you? You have noticed that, by an accident of your birth, you are treated with less respect in various ways because you happen to have a penis? Why not refuse to acknowledge this systemic problem and instead maintain that we must treat all women as the individuals that have not necessarily benefited from the system that favours them? I agree of course we need to just treat people as people, and listen to them, but there are just certain societal power structure…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 10:56 PM
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That's a really interesting observation, and you're right that me currently living in South Africa (not from here) certainly makes me acutely aware of race relations, white privilege and also the futility of fighting for white rights. I had a pretty idyllic upbringing in Australia, where whiteness is everywhere but never properly acknowledged for its dominance in mainstream culture. It weird when I go back there now, because the one thing I have learnt to appreciate about South Africans, even th…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 10:43 PM
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It's pretty easy to say things like 'I'm colour blind', and 'I don't see race' when you're white.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 10:21 PM
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Can't you see what's going on in the world right now? Heteronormativity currently is so bound to perceptions of dominant white culture that anti-oppression movements tend to just automatically lump the two in together, and they get away with it because without men of color to represent the MRM, it's the next logical jump to assume MRAs are part of the bitter, white, misogynistic alt right.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 10:16 PM
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Err. I don't subscribe to White guilt, or white tears. I subscribe to the reality that people of colour are mad because they have been systematically exploited by their white colonial oppressors for generations. Fair enough. It wasn't my fault, but I do benefit from my skin privilege everyday because of a system that my fucked up ancestors arranged. I can acknowledge it, I can get over it, and concentrate on ways to make legitimate human rights issues I care about, like men's rights, heard.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 09:07 PM
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There are suicidal men killing themselves, male victims in need of services, victims of false rape allegations whose reputations have been ruined beyond repair. But who cares? milywhite believes our real problem is "Too many white guys". Look, I know that!!! This whole thread has been nothing but a waste of a time. We already have minority men in the movement. Apparently, they don't matter though. We need MORE! If they are out there, make it known!! I'd honestly love for you to prove me wrong. I…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 09:00 PM
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Look, this is just how the movement is perceived Don't shoot the messenger.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 08:23 PM
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Good. Make it known and make it clear. It's going to go a long way in refuting the misconceptions propagated by feminists. Example
/r/MensRights26/05/17 08:14 PM
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Get transmen to speak out!
/r/MensRights26/05/17 07:54 PM
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Okay, good luck with the White Mens Rights Movement, Wiseguy003. Again, I appreciate your engagement and all the best.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 07:05 PM
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I'm so sorry to have disappointed you, Wiseguy300. Please know this wasn't my intention. I was just try my best to address the very unfortunate and unfair way the MRM is perceived and vilified by feminists. All I was trying to say is take the poison out of their pens, in docs like the Red Pill- don't give them the low hanging fruit of "it's just white guys complaining about how their privilege is being taken away again." I know the sentiment is real, I know you hearts are in the right place. I k…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 06:46 PM
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Again I very much agree on the need to find "issues that impact men and try to solve those issues in general, and that will cover men and boys of all groups." But it's just unfortunately an image problem - if you don't have men of colour advocating the same issues, it will appear (as it currently does, it would seem) as if you are an interest group that caters mostly to white men. I'm not trying to break apart men by colour, I'm trying to help you ensure that race isn't unfairly perceived as a f…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 06:00 PM
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Hey - forgive me, am writing from South Africa where segregation only ended in 1994, so white and black neighbourhoods are still routinely referred to as such here even though there has since been quite a bit of mobility between them. Also my main frames of reference of race relations in America come from movies like Get Out, etc, so I'm sorry if my stark racial language is offensive to you. My whole point is that in order to advocate the equality of men you need to be seen as representative of …
/r/MensRights26/05/17 04:47 PM
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Ah, I see. The distinction between rights and duties is a good one. I think my view of this would also be somewhat contingent on the level of social welfare support single parents receive in different economic contexts. In a country where the state doesn't fill the gap left by partners of single parents exiting, then I see why the duty would fall on the father to support biological children. In contexts where single parents are well supported, I'm still not so convinced. I think it is dangerous …
/r/MensRights26/05/17 04:27 PM
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Hey thank you so much identifying other important MRM issues that really need to be addressed. I concur with all of them however: Criminal sentencing gap is enormous (60%) and much greater than sentencing gap for race (~10%). I don't think trivialising black mens incarceration/conviction rates is helpful to the MRM at all. Even though I know much of the medias attention focuses on race stats, you must be careful not to alienate men of colour, as per my update above. Feel free to critique me on t…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:36 PM
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Hey thanks so much for your response and for shedding light on the gender wage gap debate. Good points.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:30 PM
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Hey, thanks for your comment and apologise its taken me a little while to get back to it. Agree that the legal/financial termination issue is sticky and probably needs to be refined as per the prenup arrangement you suggested. If you're interested, I've written an update above about how I think the MRM might be able to gain traction in the mainstream. Open to critique as always
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:28 PM
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Hey, thanks for your comment. I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you. I agree with a lot of what to say - esp regard to male suicide. I've written an update above that outlines my thoughts about ways to ensure these extremely legitmate MR issues might be able to gain mainstream traction
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:25 PM
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Hey! Thanks so much for your comment, sorry its taken me a while to get back to you. Agree so much that femininity is stupidly deified by society, and society needs interrogate that manners in which it is clearly toxic. by the same token non-toxic masculinity needs to acknowledged and appreciated!
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:22 PM
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Hey - thanks so much for your comment. I addressed the issue of male suicide in the update above - and how I think it could deservedly gain traction to become part of the national conversation in the US.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:19 PM
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Hey thanks so much for your comment. It expanded the intricacies my viewpoints and gave me a lot of food for thought. It seems we might have to agree to disagree on the grounds to terminate a pregnancy - I understand its an extremely personal debate/ issue (particularly in terms of children's rights) and appreciate the validity of the pro-life position. I personally do not feel that anyone should be forced to become a parent against their will, and so am inclined to afford men similar rights to …
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:15 PM
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Thanks for you comment and very much agree. My intuition is that part of the problem is that teaching has become a female dominated profession, particularly school teaching (I think unfair stereotyping of men as child sex predators has certainly contributed to this). If we correct the gender imbalance of teachers, more boys will have male role-models to encourage them in their academic pursuits.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:08 PM
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Hey! Thank you for your response and well-deserved critique of my positions. I agree I have had to consciously disassociate somewhat from feminist vocab. I've written an update above about I think it would be a good idea to tackle the unfortunate racial division that seem to be present within the MRM. Feel free to let me know what you think.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 03:04 PM
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Hey thanks for your comment, also for making me giggle!
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:58 PM
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Eish, interesting question! Sorry I'm only getting to it now. I understand the reasoning behind rewarding seniority, because it also enables companies to reward loyalty as well. With longer terms of employment, experience is increased, which is generally a positive indicator for performance. And better performance should be always be incentivized and rewarded.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:56 PM
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Hey! Thanks so much for your comment. I've written an update in case you're interested about how I suspect the MRM could better gain mainstream traction. Open to critique as always.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:53 PM
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Hey Again. Many of your points made me pause to contemplate what has been my long held worldview that, as per patriarchy, men tend to inherently in positions of superiority (even though through knowing and loving many men in my life I've intuitively felt they've been given a raw deal and certainly don't deserve the rampant misandry that often gets spat at them by feminists.) I've written an update including potential suggestions about how to improve the traction of the MRM. Again, hit me up with…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:50 PM
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Hey again - just letting you know in case you're interested, I've written an update about how I think really legitimate men's rights issues, like the one about healthcare entry points that you brought up, might get better traction in the media.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:43 PM
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Good point
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:40 PM
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It makes me so sad to read this. I'm sorry this is you view/experience of women.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:39 PM
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Hey - thanks! I've also written an update if you're interested in how I think the MRM might be able to gain more traction.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:35 PM
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Hey! I have spend a few days contemplating the reasons behind the backlash. Pls see me update above if you're interested in my take on it.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:33 PM
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Hi again Aeternalis, as you can probably gather I've been seriously contemplating my world view the last few days. I've also written an update in case you're interested about what I suspect will help the MRM gain perceived legitimacy in the media. Open to critique as always.
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:21 PM
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Hey - thanks for your comment. Again, I agree with it, and it certainly seemed to resonate with many of the MRAs reading!
/r/MensRights26/05/17 02:12 PM
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Hey! Thanks so much for your comment and for the article link. I've learnt so much from this experience, it has been eyeopening and I'm really grateful for everyone who has engaged with me. I think the article lucidly and fairly presented a lot of the problem's with modern misandry (disguised as feminism) and the illusion of universal patriarchal power. I've updated my original post with my general thoughts about how to improve the unfair perception of the MRM - I hope I have written it with eno…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 12:58 PM
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I'd actually very much like to see a more fair distribution of responsibility but those who drive the trends, apparently do not. Agreed. That's why I'm interested in MRM, I believe men are getting a raw deal from feminism. do you not think the mere responsibility of being the protector, is a burden in itself? Yeah it is. I think human decency/social cohesion prescribes that we should look after those more vulnerable than us, and we are all more or less vulnerable at different stages in our lives…
/r/MensRights26/05/17 04:58 AM
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PS Joe - I realised I made a few presumptions based on the doc, and also on other impressions I've seen on the media, but has anyone in the MRM actually taken a tally of MRA demographics data? If all the guys on the Reddit sub are actually a really diverse bunch but we can't see that because of the internet, GREAT - that needs to be used to MRM's advantage!
/r/MensRights25/05/17 08:05 PM
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Joe? Have I lost you? Please, please know I'm not against men's rights, I think men have been given a raw deal and the essence of what I've read about MRM in recent weeks is completely legitimate and worth fighting for. My suggestions are because I'm on your side (I feel like I've given you some magicians box of tricks or something). Just trust me, white feminists are so concerned about their own image right now that they aren't going to align with MRM if it's perceived to be too white, and blac…
/r/MensRights25/05/17 07:46 PM
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Eish, sounds like you're not much a fan of those arrangements- fair enough, I believe everyone should be able to negotiate their own terms for having a family as long as they are based on mutual consent, and of course the love/respect/generosity that is what glues a family together. It's really interesting you mention the unpaid labor business. For my family growing up, I was lucky enough to have two parents that both worked full time in well-paying jobs. In fact my mum always earned/still earns…
/r/MensRights25/05/17 03:57 PM
1

By the way: Every one in this debate believes that the abortion rate should be as low as possible. We can achieve this through better contraceptive education, etc. But for the reasons I listed above, we nonetheless need to make sure it is safe, legal... and rare.
/r/MensRights25/05/17 09:46 AM
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No. As I have established I believe abortion to be quite different to what I consider murder or rape, so those crimes are not comparable in my opinion . See the video for my perspective on that. What I'm saying is, in the case of the US: if abortion was to be criminalized again, wealthy women would nonetheless be able to access a safe service from a qualified provider at the right price. Just like they could before Roe Vs Wade. Poor women, however, would resort to to unsafe abortion, and materna…
/r/MensRights25/05/17 09:36 AM
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My point is - the "babies" die either way. That's the reality.
/r/MensRights25/05/17 09:21 AM
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Okay, the adoption/over supply of unwanted children part of my argument is one aspect, and I can see why we come from very different angles in that respect, because essentially we disagree on what constitutes murder. I think that has been discussed already on this thread, and as I mentioned before, that video I linked will give you a pretty good idea of my perspective if you are interested in it. What I find the most compelling reason to make sure abortion is legal and accessible, however, is th…
/r/MensRights25/05/17 07:29 AM
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Hey there. Thank you for you comment. My take on chivalry is pretty much identical to one written earlier by another user ( /u/unbelievablepeople ), who I hope won't mind me copying and pasting because I think he articulated it so well: "On chivalry: I carry heavy stuff for my wife because I'm stronger than her. Maybe that will change some day; maybe I'll have an injury or a health condition or something when I'm old and my wife will be stronger than me. I would hope that in that scenario, my wi…
/r/MensRights25/05/17 06:42 AM
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I disagree that it needs to be a matter of central importance within the men's rights movement itself. Discussed when relevant, yes. A focus, no. It adds nothing to the discussion of the issues being men's issues. (And most of the issues within the MRM affect men of all types.) That's my whole point. In order for race not to be seen as important, i.e for the movement not to be written off as representative of only white men, you need to have (heteronormative) men of all races involved. That way …
/r/MensRights25/05/17 05:26 AM
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I've just reevaluated my suggestion that gay/trans men should be spokespeople for MRM. One of your concerns earlier was the demonization of heteronormativity, and heteronormative paternal rights/non-toxic masculinity are really central to the MRM message. So you're right in that sexual minority men aren't generally representative. So I'd say, recruit as man men of colour as per removing the above mentioned problematic white image, and appeal to the heterosexual majority of women who love the men…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 09:16 PM
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...So, being realistic, are we talking about a men's rights movement here or a white men's rights movement? If that's what is, might as well call a spade a spade, no? My reading of this movement, and the reason I think it has so much legitimacy, is the reality that men have been unfairly typecast and demonized by feminists, just for having penises. As a woman, a member of the so-called universally "oppressed" gender, I can see this is clearly stupid and needs to change. As a white person whose s…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 08:44 PM
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Hmmm. I'm just trying to think of practical ways the MRM can distance itself from the bitter white man conservative alt-right image and be taken seriously. My first suggestion would be to ensure that gender on its own is the focal point of MR activism, and otherwise recruit as diverse a sample of men as possible to be spokespeople. This includes men of colour, trans men, gay men, men with disabilities, etc. At the moment, most MRA's seem rather unfortunately to be white men - as misunderstood as…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 07:49 PM
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On cellphone data atm- have bookmarked and will watch as soon as I get wifi
/r/MensRights24/05/17 06:23 PM
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Hahah! So good.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 05:09 PM
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As you can probably tell I'm regretting going into this argument altogether. You sound like a decent person just with a different world view, and I'm sorry again for painting you as someone completely undeserving of empathy. I'm very passionate about reproductive rights not only because I have had an abortion myself, but also because I have worked in clinics in East Africa where I have seen several women die of septicemia poisoning - this is what happens in contexts where safe, legal abortion is…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 04:43 PM
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I agree with your argument now that the lie has been manufactured by feminists, I just wanted to explain why I suspect the rampant misandry of #menaretrash seems to be so readily and illogically excused, given today's political climate. Having someone like Trump in power helps perpetuate the narrative that their is widespread allegiance to a patriarchy (that we have established doesn't really exist as per the Apex theory). I know it seems irrational to conflate MRM with the alt-right, but I just…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 04:31 PM
1

Sorry, can you explain that a little more for me? I'm not familiar enough with SJW arguments to understand the analogy.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 03:40 PM
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But thing is, Trump was elected to hold the most powerful office in the world, with no less than Alt-Right poster boy Steve Bannon as his strategist. Despite the low approval ratings, etc, can you see why feminists still find his ascension disturbing? I'm not excusing the blatant misandry of #menaretrash, etc, and all of the hatred towards men that long preceded Trump, but I'm doing my best to explain why a lot of women feel so (unjustifiably) threatened at the moment. When old, rich, white men …
/r/MensRights24/05/17 03:33 PM
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Thanks for your response and acknowledgement of the distressing nature of the decision to have an abortion. As long as you see that women who have abortions do not go about having the procedure as if it a callous murder like, say, to use a female example, Aileen Wuornos would, then I can see your capacity for empathy does exist and, you then deserve that empathy in return. Also, I'm not sure if I have clarified this well enough - by 'treating someone as a human being' I was referring to a sentim…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 03:00 PM
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Hey again. Sorry I got a bit distracted by another part of the thread today and haven't found time to get back to our discussion. I can see your point about me fearing losing men to the alt-right to be self serving. I was more referring to what I see as the unhelpful polarising of the debate as detrimental to everyone, not just women. The alt-right/Trump camp embodies, in my view, what everyone is referring to as the reason for the Apex Theory. Men like Trump are the old, rich, white men at the …
/r/MensRights24/05/17 02:47 PM
1

For anyone reading - just want to say that I admit I didn't read HmmWhatsThat's argument thoroughly enough, and for that I apologize (whether or not he wants to accept that apology). In his original post, I took phraseology like 'chopping up babies'/'murder'/and 'easy, breezy Sunday afternoon' to mean that he somehow sees the decision to have an abortion as akin to a murder in cold blood. I am now satisfied that he doesn't see women who have abortions as cold-blooded murderers, and instead ackno…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 01:24 PM
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Hey again Fair enough if you don't want to accept my apology. Just to quickly explain not reading your argument properly - Please understand I have been overwhelmed in the last couple of days replying to comments from the original thread. I admit I didn't read yours thoroughly as I should have and unfairly lumped a few of your words together (murder/cutting up babies/easy breezy Sunday afternoon). In fact I really shouldn't have engaged w the abortion debate in the first place since that's not w…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:59 PM
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Will get to it - TBH the abortion debate isn't my priority because I'm pretty set in my mind about that (I sense so are you). In hindsight I shouldn't have even given my 2 cents to begin with. I want to learn as much as I can about the MRM so will engage with the other topics first. I'm working full time atm, so might take a while but I'll do my best to get back to you at some point as I did start the conversation after all. In the meantime, here is a link to a video that sums up the abortion de…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:37 PM
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To be honest, I don't really want to have a discussion. I'm pretty set in my views about abortion, and so are you, so I don't think its worth trying to change each other's minds. As long as you agree with me that having an abortion ISN'T an easy breezy Sunday afternoon killing, therefore there it is quite different to a cold-blooded murder, I am perfectly content that you are an empathetic human being who deserves to be heard and listened to in return. I'm honesty sorry I mis-characterized you. …
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:28 PM
2

Haha, warning noted. I'll do my best.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:18 PM
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Of course it is.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:12 PM
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Hey HmmWhatsThat - have read through the comments and I admit I misinterpreted your original argument a bit. Perhaps in between all the murder charges, 'chopping up babies' etc, I honestly thought you were suggesting that abortion was the same as a murder in cold blood.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:08 PM
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Ah, I see what you mean. Good point. Let me write another clarification.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 12:04 PM
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Thank you so much for you support, it means a lot to me to come into this forum as a woman and have someone willing to be in my corner wrt the abortion issue.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:54 AM
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That was in reference to one of the observations I have found most compelling about the MRM: many men feel as if their humanity is not seen by women or by society, but instead automatically portrayed as violent, creepy, misogynistic, etc.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:45 AM
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an estimated 1 in 3 women have an abortion at some point in their lives, so, according to you that decision they take is both murder and akin 'an easy breezy Sunday afternoon' - insinuating that abortion is somehow enjoyable.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:37 AM
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Hey again. The inhumanity I was referring to was more along the lines of the capacity for empathy, not whether a sociopathic murderer is a member of the human race. Of course they are.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:29 AM
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Hey thanks for sticking up for me here. To clarify - it was HmmWhatsThat's charge that abortion was akin to an 'easy, easy breezy Sunday afternoon' that bothered be. As if women who have abortions are sociopaths who find killing fun. It wasn't his pro-life postion, or even the charge of murder really, it was his incapability of seeing the extremely stressful predicament women find themselves in when they are faced with an unwanted pregnancy.
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:25 AM
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Hi, just to clarify, because I feel I have been taken out of context here - I do respect people's right to take the pro-life position and also to support Trump for that matter. What bothered me about HmmWhatsThats original comment was that he compared the decision and experience of having an abortion to an 'easy breezy Sunday afternoon'. That is why I got upset - at the total lack of empathy (and humanity) he exhibited. He was willing to compare 1 in 3 women in society to sociopaths who find kil…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:19 AM
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Hi everyone. Just to lend a little context to the original quote that was taken from me, here is what preceded it: Original quote I referred to from HmmWhatsThat: And yet having that same child cut into pieces and having his mutilated body vacuumed out of her body is somehow an easy, breezy Sunday afternoon? To which I replied: It was here that you really lost me. You don't get it. I once heard a quote that went something like: 'No woman wants an abortion like she wants a piece of cake or an ice…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 11:09 AM
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It isn't your pro-life position that bothers me, or even that you think of it as murder, it was your comparison of abortion to an easy breezy Sunday afternoon - as if women go around having abortions for fun - that I find callous and borderline sociopathic. I certainly didn't say all men don't deserve for women/society to see and appreciate the legitimate concerns of the MRM, or for that matter all pro-lifers, but if you don't have an intuitive understanding of how actually fucking hard and stre…
/r/MensRights24/05/17 10:41 AM
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And yet having that same child cut into pieces and having his mutilated body vacuumed out of her body is somehow an easy, breezy Sunday afternoon? It was here that you really lost me. You don't get it. I once heard a quote that went something like: 'No woman wants an abortion like she wants a piece of cake or an icecream cone (on an easy, breezy Sunday afternoon, apparently), she wants an abortion like an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw its own leg off' Frankly, if you are so incapable of …
/r/MensRights24/05/17 09:05 AM
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Hey - thanks for your comment. I'm not terribly sure I agree with you, though. I think a big part of the problem with feminism today is that men are characterized as toxic, violent, and misogynistic. This is bullshit. So-called acts of benevolent sexism (for instance, a man coming to a woman's aid when she needs help because he's stronger than her and she is need)are a beautiful examples of what make men so great and valuable to society. We need to reframe the misandrist narrative against men in…
/r/MensRights23/05/17 08:00 PM
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Ah I think you've got me there. Thank you - this is exactly what I came here for! Congrats on being a good hole-picker ;-) I live and work in a context where the majority of women really don't have a lot of sexual power (or domestic or social), but the ones that do fit this stereotype certainly happen to be white and young (South Africa is still very conservative across the board, with the man usually being the principle household decision maker - in many ways it's kind of like a time capsule - …
/r/MensRights23/05/17 07:45 PM
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Hey, thanks so much for sharing your story with me. I hope you're doing alright now. I think I might be able to relate somewhat (but of course not entirely) in that I have a big sister who had various mental health issues/eating disorders that my parents concentrated on, and I always felt the responsibility to be the stoic 'sane' one! I finally let myself crack one day after I left home (didn't attempt suicide but was certainly contemplating it). Anyway, wishing you the best. Thanks again for yo…
/r/MensRights23/05/17 05:20 PM
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Having a child is a choice for women (significantly more so than for men). Being a hindrance for a career is a consequence of that choice. Let's treat women like adults and allow them to face and deal with the consequences of their choices. Meanwhile let's stop having men deal with consequences of women's choices too. What about the choice couples make to have children together? The traditional deal is that the woman stays home and does the unpaid domestic labour, while the man goes off to earn …
/r/MensRights23/05/17 05:15 PM
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Agree!
/r/MensRights23/05/17 04:47 PM
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I believe women are only empowered by victimisation is the sense that it has driven them to take a collective stand. Give that men are coming forward now and collectivising as the MRM, I think that is a form of empowerment that is coming from victimisation, too. And I think its good. We should all know our rights, respect ourselves, and be able to call out the people and structures in society who do wrong by us. You guys are calling out the ways society is ignoring your needs and trampling over …
/r/MensRights23/05/17 04:44 PM
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Hi there! Have just been reading through the replies to this thread (thanks for contributing!). Thought I might as well just say that it's my personal view that the decision to keep a child is much more consequential than the decision not to. I feel that kids deserve stable, loving, supportive environments with parents that want them and plan for them. The world is a pretty messed up place, and I think it's misguided to insist on giving a every potential human being a life only to subject it to …
/r/MensRights23/05/17 04:11 PM
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Hi again! You bring up some really good points - namely that men and women, although gender/sexuality can be somewhat fluid, are for the most part complementary opposites (I like to visualise two overlapping normal distributions). While I don't think men or women should be forced into gender specific roles or practices, I do think there is a natural tendency to gravitate to one or the other. Also, in terms of mainstream feminism erasing and invalidating peoples stories, it's not just men who fee…
/r/MensRights23/05/17 03:41 PM
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Hi again - sorry, I just reread what I wrote earlier and I believe I misinterpreted your last question. Feminist perspectives that rail against men in general and forget to recognize the contribution men make to society is really, really problematic. How is anyone going to feel if all you seem to do is criticize them and go on about how shitty they are? I think a lot of the feminist buzzwords you mentioned are over used and can be confusing. I'll copy and paste another answer I gave earlier in t…
/r/MensRights23/05/17 03:10 PM
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Not at all, thanks for asking them: Why do you think the MRM is maligned by so many feminists, in such consistent and consistently disingenuous ways? It's difficult to believe that it isn't a conscious smear campaign when, for example, a person like RooshV -- who openly attacks MRAs -- is routinely referred to as an MRA by feminists. I think the debate has become so polarized because, in todays political climate, men have increasingly been given a platform to attack the dignity of women and thei…
/r/MensRights23/05/17 09:49 AM
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As for female dominated professions, like nursing, social work and, to a slightly lesser extent, teaching - those fields are poorly paid in a lot of Western countries, so I think a wage increase along with a culture shift might attract more men into them. I feel particularly concerned about underpaid teachers, because IMO (and experience), a good teacher is life changing. If we can get more men teaching primary and secondary education, the mentorship they will be able to provide for boys might g…
/r/MensRights23/05/17 06:22 AM
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It makes me really sad when people don't understand how important the clitoris is for most women. I certainly would never be able to orgasm if someone gouged mine out. Add to that the fact that many women actually get sewn shut, so that penetration is extremely painful and the tear can easily cause a woman to bleed out. But I honestly don't think it's terribly productive to compare, only to come together in advocating the right to bodily integrity.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 09:48 PM
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No worries, and thank you for engaging with me in this thread! Haha, that is just a saying I picked up from my mum, but your Q intrigued me to google it! Apparently it was a US game show in the 50's.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 09:02 PM
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Hey, thanks for your comment. I was conscious about this being conflated with mainstream Judaism and intentionally just wrote Orthodox with out the prefix. I'm sorry that this post has facilitated the pathetic/ignorant anti-semetic bullshit that has been spouted on here. Agree that the pedophelia charge took it too far - forgive my automatic suspicion of institutionalized child sexual abuse, where I'm from that kind of this is rampant in the Church.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 01:42 PM
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Sorry that wasn't a good way to express my sentiment - more that I'm still somewhat undecided about the issue, as you seem to be, too! So I agree with you point blank actually.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 01:32 PM
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Thanks for your comment! I appreciate so much the thoughtful responses to this post from the MRM community.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 01:10 PM
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Of female reactions to criticism. I haven't really considered that from a gendered point of view before, but in my own experience, the best way to to digest and even benefit from criticism, is to maintain a growth mindset and like you said, just not take shit too personally. Education - yeah, I can safely say women were over-represented in my university cohorts for both my degrees (bachelor and masters). Some disciplines are still male dominated, like tech, physics and engineering, etc, but very…
/r/MensRights22/05/17 01:05 PM
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Hey! Thanks so much for your response. By legal termination I didn't mean men should be able to make a woman physically terminate a pregnancy, only a woman can decide what goes on in her body, but men IMO should be given a window of opportunity to opt out of parental responsibilities once they find out about it. Alimony, yes I agree with you for the most part. Once there is a child in the picture and the father has chosen to be it's parent, he has an enduring responsibility (dual with the mother…
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:55 PM
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The only wage gap I care about is equal pay for literally equal work. Shouldn't be taken as a sweeping statistic across industries.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:44 PM
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Perhaps I am to an extent repelled by weakness and insecurity, but I wouldn't delude myself into pursuing someone more successful/less insecure than I am - because I know that wouldn't be a relationship between equals, and frankly a recipe for being left in the dirt once age ravages my sex appeal.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:39 PM
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Hey again. In terms of entry points in the health care system, that is a really excellent point. Men are told that to be sick is to be weak, that pain in unacceptable and they should have a stiff upper lip, etc. Such bullshit. Men deserve to be healthy and happy just like women do. DV services for men - gosh, I've known a bunch of guys who could use this kind of service. In terms of the male suicide/female homicide comparison in DV situation - I can't find the statics but think that would intuit…
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:30 PM
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Thanks for the link! Will try to track down her book
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:12 PM
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I understand why you get the idea that women are just chasing after money and success, because that's what gets depicted in the press. I try to hold my partners to the same standards I hold myself. My looks should more or less match his (physical attraction is weirdly chemical, and I often decide if I'm attracted to someone by their smell, so I'm not as inclined to say objective attractiveness is that important for me). But certainly my level of passion, ambition, and success should roughly matc…
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:09 PM
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"No one, male or female, should ever be forced to become a parent against their will." Agree so much with this, thanks for your comment.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 11:47 AM
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Very good point
/r/MensRights22/05/17 11:44 AM
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Can definitely see where you are coming from here.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 11:43 AM
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Yes totally agree! Intersectional approaches need to be applied to everyone including men. And there also needs to be more attention given to privileges not related to race or gender - financial, educational, and social capital need to be taken much more seriously for their roles in privilege. After all, if you have money (and good health), life does tend to be much easier.
/r/MensRights22/05/17 11:36 AM
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Not sure about gender asset distribution data where I am (South Africa), but very much agree that white women have been a silent oppressor of POC here - hence why many feminists are revolting from mainstream liberal white feminism toward a more intersectional approach. The idea is that women aren't all the same, and glossing over the struggles of some groups of women for the sake of unity just ends up leading to an erasure, and subsequent oppression, of peoples stories and identities. Hopefully …
/r/MensRights22/05/17 11:29 AM
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Eeeek, the $64,000 question! In terms of expressing sexuality, I don't buy the argument that feeling horny somehow diminishes the responsibility to negotiate consent. If we take that to it's logical conclusion, we start to justify rape. Once all of us (women included) get it into our heads we are not entitled to other peoples bodies or hearts, even if our deepest urges compel us to do otherwise, we'll come a long way in terms of respect and understanding of each other. Perhaps a decent and more …
/r/MensRights22/05/17 11:06 AM
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Ps forgot to thank you for your comment, really appreciate it!!
/r/MensRights22/05/17 12:44 AM
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Thanks for your comment. Am going to consider this, read up a bit and get back to you tomorrow!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 11:28 PM
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Wow - thank you so much for all your input. I'm going to give it some thought and reply in detail tomorrow as it's past my bedtime (1am where I live)!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 11:19 PM
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Hahah - good point. Plastic surgery is not a cure for cancer, which I agree mainstream feminism seems to be suffering from. It's not a perfect analogy but I think women of color may often feel excluded from mainstream feminism for somewhat similar reasons - while the world loves to concentrate on an elite (usually white) minority of women breaking glass ceilings, they often forget who is usually left to clean up the glass.
/r/MensRights21/05/17 11:03 PM
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Hey - thanks for your comment. I work in the field of human rights and gender issues, so I feel like it's sort of my duty to listen to and take seriously anyone who feels as if they are oppressed of that their rights are being violated. I thought it might be a good idea to develop my positions in consultation with MRAs, because without actually talking to those with lived experience, it's pretty hard/short-sighted for me to pursue any activist work relating to MRM.
/r/MensRights21/05/17 10:37 PM
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Haha, point taken and no hurt feelings! For those reading - I don't expect you to invest emotional labour in explaining things to me if you don't want to. Only engage with me if you feel energized to respond. Bestoftherest222, your point reminds me a lot of how people of colour feel when white expect them to explain racism for them. By the same vein I also appreciate you calling me out as someone who is centering myself in an argument that isn't actually about me. With that said, I only posted h…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 10:13 PM
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Very much on the same page here and thank you for confirming my understanding that MRM isn't about diminishing or women's rights or re-oppressing them. The reason I delved into the MRM in the first place is that I knew in my gut there had to more to it than how the movement usually gets conflated with the misogyny that gets spouted around PUA forums, etc. In fact, as you said, that's not what MRM is about AT ALL.
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:50 PM
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Thanks so much. I know I've got a lot left to read and consider but doing my best just to listen and maintain a growth mindset :-)
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:33 PM
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So true, and weird because IMO there's nothing sexier than a good Dad! I do find success and ambition to be attractive traits in men, but I want my partner to be equally drawn to my ambition and my achievements if that makes sense (as well as finding my (future) mothering skills attractive). There are plenty of successful do-it-all women characters on TV, but we really need more good dads!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:29 PM
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Thanks. Appreciate that :-)
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:14 PM
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This one is so difficult, because both crimes usually happen behind closed doors with the victim the only witness. I think false accusation is despicable, just as rape is, and can no doubt inflict extreme mental anguish and trauma, as well as have real socioeconomic consequences for victims. So, I think my view on false accusation is that it's extremely fucked up, as is rape, so when we are teaching our kids about the importance of consent, we should also be teaching them about the gravity and w…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 08:29 PM
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Wow, if I could upvote this 10 times I would. Thank you - that comment articulated my somewhat convoluted thoughts/concerns about feminism and power so, so lucidly. Keeping it on hand for future reference!!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 06:29 PM
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Ps - I forgot to say you sound like an awesome dad! Hope your son feels better soon! :-)
/r/MensRights21/05/17 06:07 PM
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Totally second you on this!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 06:05 PM
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Hi Aternalis. Although I can understand why you feel that way, I respectfully disagree that the world in general is against men - after all, wealth, capital and political power remain concentrated among, and monopolized by, rich (mostly white) men. I do think, however, that men's rights have been severely neglected in the fight against the harms of neoliberal structural patriarchy, particularly the rights of (the majority) of men who don't reap the benefits of being born an "Alpha". Feminism has…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 06:02 PM
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Hmmm, interesting question. I hope I've interpreted it correctly, but I suppose we really just need to foster a culture where both men and women are able to freely express their sexuality, while keeping mindful of others boundaries. If we teach our kids enough about respectful relationships, about the importance of consent, about how sexual gestures should never be used for intimidation purposes, etc - perhaps the miscommunication wouldn't happen as frequently? Admit I am scratching my head a bi…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 05:22 PM
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Yep agree with this too! If I have children one day I plan to teach them about decency, about consent, about self worth, regardless of their gender. I certainly will not be teaching my sons to hate themselves because they happen to have a penis. Gender privilege is an interesting issue. Men and women, as I have learnt recently, can both experience privilege or disadvantage due to their gender. So I think I will teach my kids to interrogate the ways their respective genders either help or hinder …
/r/MensRights21/05/17 05:08 PM
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Agreed!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 04:40 PM
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Thanks for your response, and I agree maybe 3 months (12 weeks) should be the limit! Have edited my original post. A tough one is whether a late legal abortion could be permitted to take place in instances of severe congenital disability of the fetus. This circumstance would have to run concurrently with the pregnancy and the choice made quickly after finding out. I'm undecided about this though - I find it hard to disentangle my emotions thinking about it. Financial abortion in cases of paterni…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 04:33 PM
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Thanks - I did watch the Red Pill and found it very interesting, reasonable and balanced - it did such a good job of portraying multiple perspectives, including equal weight given to the problem of extremism on both sides. I really don't understand the backlash - I'm going to recommend it to my friends.
/r/MensRights21/05/17 04:20 PM
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Yes, I agree I was misguided in terms of the paedophilia aspect. Thanks for calling me out. Perhaps I'm just prone to assuming the worst when it comes to the sexual abuse of children (particularly boys) by religious institutions. That is very separate from the issues of circumcision/disease spreading, though.
/r/MensRights21/05/17 04:07 PM
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Good point. Perhaps it was just my visceral reaction upon reading about the practice. Something about "washing" a boy's penis with ones mouth just seems to go was beyond the realm of hygiene and ventures into something more sinister. But I understand and appreciate your perspective, and agree with it to an extent! Another example I find really hard to grapple with- Mothers and grandmothers in Myanmar often soothe their crying infant boys by sucking their penises. Although sexual gratification (a…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 01:59 PM
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Very true.Male circumcision is the West was prescribed to control "compulsive masturbation" in boys in the 18th Century - this practice in the name of 'moral hygiene' was soon reinterpreted to literal hygiene/cleanliness once the sanitation revolution took over. I suppose the gravity of FGM is that a majority women who undergo it are rendered physically incapable of climaxing. There are also occasional legitimate medical reasons for male circumcision, like phimosis or recurring UTI. Some also ar…
/r/MensRights21/05/17 01:06 PM
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Also want to acknowledge that the foreskin does contain tens of thousands of nerve-endings , and helps with friction during sex, so it's not as if you can't argue against male circumcision on those grounds either!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 12:15 PM
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Sorry - I think I may have misinterpreted what you were saying!! Even though FGM is particularly sadistic in that the purpose of it is often take away a woman's ability to orgasm, that should never be cited as a reason not to also advocate against the male equivalent of the procedure!!! We should just call it GM!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 12:10 PM
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Yeah, it's to prevent you from peeing while you heal. You're not even allowed to eat 'watery' fruit or veg. A lot of the deaths and hospitalizations are due to dehydration.
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:56 AM
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I don't think it' necessarily constructive to diminish how horrific FGM is- only very important to advocate for the inclusion of boys and men in the fight for the right to bodily integrity (particularly when it comes to interfering with someones genitalia!!).
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:11 AM
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Thank you!! Sorry I messed up copying the original link!
/r/MensRights21/05/17 09:04 AM
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Really agree with this. I'll happily hold a door for, or give my chair to, an elderly or disabled person, also a visibly pregnant woman - or basically anyone who looks like they could use a helping hand. That's just common decency. Not on the basis of gender though. I don't expect that from men and I feel uncomfortable accepting those gestures while I'm young and able bodied.
/r/MensRights20/05/17 09:12 PM
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PS - in terms of the fringe groups you referred to who advocate not sending women to prison at all - lunacy, I agree. There is another argument to make about the legitimacy of imprisonment for punishment in general vs evidence for comparatively better outcomes using a rehabilitation/restorative justice approach. Again, the prison industry is too powerful and too profitable at the moment to have that conversation meaningfully in America.
/r/MensRights20/05/17 04:17 AM
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I have done some reading as you suggested - eye opening and true that the gender gap in terms of conviction rate is wider than the race one. And I agree - it's extremely shitty that the justice system seems to think women don't have the strength or agency to handle or deserve long sentences, or in many cases custody at all. Now step back, look at America's industrialized prison system as a whole, and the people/corporations profiteering from it. This is the relentless, neoliberal bullshit that r…
/r/MensRights20/05/17 03:57 AM
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You're right, the entity's explicit power is historical. But the ways in which that power has been transferred to living generations by way of financial, social, political and cultural capital, mean that both wealth and power continue to be concentrated among, and monopolised by, old (yes,mostly white) men. This is the same structural fuckery that tells men they aren't allowed to complain if they are abused, that tells them it's pathetic to be depressed, that tells them it's a gallant and noble …
/r/MensRights19/05/17 09:04 PM
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I came to the MR sub with an open mind. Completely agree and sympathise with a lot of the sentiment I've read on here - incl but not limited to disproportionate male suicide, maternal favouritism in custody disputes, and the disposable nature in which a society at war treats their sons. However, what is does "women can't be sent to prison" mean ? Of course they can. In terms of sentencing leniency - there has been a lot of flack about that Oxford student who stabbed her boyfriend in the leg gett…
/r/MensRights19/05/17 07:44 PM
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Good on you - go for the vasectomy, by the time vasalgel is readily available you'll have wasted a big unnecessary chunk of your twenties waiting for it. Plus vasectomies are usually reversible, so no biggie if you change your mind at a later date. The success rate of the reverse procedure does go down with time, though, so as someone else suggested it might be a good idea to freeze a load or two if you have any niggling doubt.
/r/TheRedPill16/05/17 08:33 AM
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Confidence in and respect for oneself - esp the art of not measuring self worth against the perceived worth of others - is extremely life changing, agreed. What I don't really understand about TRP is why it has anything to do with being a guy or a girl though? Any person who loves and honours him/herself will be naturally drawn to others who love and honour themselves - that's how you form healthy relationships with cool, interesting people with strong boundaries. Seems pretty simple and the bes…
/r/TheRedPill16/05/17 08:18 AM
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What's so remarkable about this story? Anyone can be an asshole and disrespect their partner. Self-respect is the lesson here, regardless of your gender.
/r/TheRedPill15/05/17 09:14 PM
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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