necropantser Archive

Upvotes	Title	Category	Author	Subreddit	Date (UTC)
9	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions	Ask Red Pill	necropantser	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 04:14 AM

Upvotes	Comment on	Subreddit	Date (UTC)
-2	Is consent to sex consent to reproduce? \| A key legal right that women have but which is explicitly denied to men by our current laws If you put financial rights or male reproductive rights above body autonomy rights you essentially destroy those rights. They become meaningless. why is that threatening to you? LOL. I'm not personally threatened by it. I'm a father of two children.	/r/MensRights	15/06/19 06:24 AM
1	Is consent to sex consent to reproduce? \| A key legal right that women have but which is explicitly denied to men by our current laws You're comparing a drunk driver scenario, where the decision to hand over keys is made when the driver is already drunk and the risk already apparent, to a man making the decision to have sex with a woman long before pregnancy is in the picture. A better analogy is: person deciding to hand car keys to a drunk person = women deciding to continue an unplanned pregnancy even though the man has not consented to reproduce. You know, this might be news to you, but every time two people have consensual…	/r/MensRights	15/06/19 06:13 AM
-1	Is consent to sex consent to reproduce? \| A key legal right that women have but which is explicitly denied to men by our current laws Does all the responsibility for an outcome depend on the final choice? Scenario: Let's say your friend is obviously completely drunk. They want to drive home and you make the choice to give them the keys to your car so they can drive themselves home. On the drive home the friend crashes into someone and kills them. Obviously the drunk driver bears much responsibility here, but how about the person who gives up their keys and knows the intentions of the drunk driver? A woman doesn't get pregnant …	/r/MensRights	15/06/19 02:56 AM
-5	Is consent to sex consent to reproduce? \| A key legal right that women have but which is explicitly denied to men by our current laws Yes, that is an injustice. However, legal frameworks based on looking at precedence of human rights should always value bodily autonomy over reproductive rights because if you flip those two around you end up with potentially horrific consequences. Examples if you flip the two: Laws could be passed that limit the number of children a person is allowed to have. Laws could be passed that forced a person to conceive children from another person without consent. Laws could be passed that forced abor…	/r/MensRights	14/06/19 09:47 PM
-7	Is consent to sex consent to reproduce? \| A key legal right that women have but which is explicitly denied to men by our current laws Body autonomy is a right that will always take precedence over reproductive rights. Would you want it any other way? If you are tempted to say yes, please think of the other implications to such a situation.	/r/MensRights	14/06/19 06:19 PM
1	Warren Farrell: "We do more medical research on men than women for the same reasons we do more medical research on rats than human beings." Umm... this is just not factually correct. Human medical trials are volunteer based (with some notable and horrific exceptions). Alot depends on the drug, but usually the population consists of people who have the most clear-cut and distinctive cases of the disease. There is a tendency for this population to skew towards the more aggressive forms of the disease. Next, some other factors also include this: There is no risk of pregnancy with men No potential confounding influence of birth control.…	/r/MensRights	12/06/19 06:11 PM
1	I'm curious if anyone know what happened to him after 2015 and if he is all right? I don't agree. It was a perfectly flippant and jovial response to someone who makes a post asking what happened to someone and then never tells you any clues about who that person is. If you can't laugh at yourself you better be prepared for the rest of the world to do it.	/r/MensRights	02/11/18 04:29 PM
2	I'm curious if anyone know what happened to him after 2015 and if he is all right? We don't talk about him anymore. Ok? Got it?	/r/MensRights	02/11/18 03:22 AM
1	#himtoo So, if a man and a woman are competing for a job, it would be OK for the woman to have her girlfriend call the hiring manager and say that the man tried to rape her, so he shouldn't be hired? Strawman argument. Nobody is proposing that except you because its an easy counterargument to knock down. I'm so sick of this "It's just a job interview" narrative. Sorry man, but you know... that is exactly what it is. That doesn't make false accusation of rape or other injustices any better. LOL, I love h…	/r/MensRights	28/09/18 05:17 PM
1	PSA: The Red Pill has been quarantined and users are given links to the website of the academic who popularized the term "toxic masculinity" Dude, I'm with you. I ditched that sub years ago because to much of their shit infantalized and objectified women. Sure the MRA's here love the Men's Rights aspect of the "philosophy" but at the end of the day you can't get around the fact that how they view women is demeaning. I mean... years ago I offered my own marriage as proof that not all women are like what they describe. I was told that I was being suckered (and also sarcastically told I had found a "unicorn"). It was all pathetic. So ye…	/r/MensRights	28/09/18 05:03 AM
0	#himtoo You missed my point completely.	/r/MensRights	27/09/18 08:21 PM
11	#himtoo and, when they turn out to be unproven slanders The way you put this, it sounds like there is no other conclusion than him being innocent. I guess you have your mind made up. All these women should just shut up and let the man have his job. They're just trying to get everyone's attention because they are tools for the Democrats, amirite?	/r/MensRights	27/09/18 07:46 PM
14	#himtoo Do you ever wonder if you are setting those goalposts in whatever spot is convenient? I mean, in an alternate reality where the therapists notes did contain Kavanaugh's name I wonder if you would be saying, "But there is no hard evidence and its still the same story from the same source!"	/r/MensRights	27/09/18 07:40 PM
34	#himtoo People who don't want him in that office can accuse him of anything, then wax hysterical about how an investigation needs to happen until they're blue in the face. So true. Obviously he is totally innocent. Better hand him a lifetime appointment. /s OK, back to being serious.... I mean we all know what you are saying. It's obvious. That is why you investigate. These accusations are not without merit. If you read the accusations by 3 different women you see there is evidence well before today tha…	/r/MensRights	27/09/18 05:55 PM
41	#himtoo Accusations are what you have before an investigation. If Republicans want to promote him to a very powerful office then the accusations should be investigated before he is handed the office. It's a simple concept really.	/r/MensRights	27/09/18 05:27 PM
71	#himtoo But Kavanaugh isn't on trial. This is a job interview. It's a different bar. You are entitled to a full trial before they send you to prison. Kavanaugh isn't entitled to being a Supreme Court judge. His life will still be luxurious as a Circuit Court Judge even if he isn't given this position. In the interests of fairness there should be a full investigation if the Senate still feels like they may wish to appoint him. However, it is absolutely reckless to appoint him prior to an investigation be…	/r/MensRights	27/09/18 04:36 PM
-6	The Green party officially announces a huge change, tells people "DON'T give any money to charity or men anymore-give it ONLY to WOMEN instead". Can we now admit the modern Left are the worst man haters & feminists? And I write this as a shocked & stunned Left winger. I came here to say this. Congrats on being in the "I read the article" Club. Also, this is the UK Green Party. I don't know how much impact that has on the US Green Party.	/r/MensRights	05/03/18 06:47 AM
17	Thank you Dad You know, I was once a freshman heading to college, inclined toward right-wing thoughts and thinking I was exceptional because I didn't buy into the standard liberal narrative. I listened to Rush Limbaugh at 16 and laughed at those feel-good liberals. It took me many years to understand that I was being manipulated by the rich elite who were perpetuating class warfare. I hope you maintain an open and critical mind. It's the only thing that saved me from hatred and propaganda. Good luck.	/r/MensRights	16/08/17 12:16 AM
19	Thank you Dad This book has all your answers --> http://newjimcrow.com/about Blaming "urban culture" is a right wing tactic designed to gently herd you down the road towards racism. Let's call it entry-level racism.	/r/MensRights	15/08/17 11:46 PM
23	Thank you Dad Your assumption is that the separation of fathers from children is a result of "abandonment" instead of societal systems that strip fathers from children or makes them feel incapable of being a good father.	/r/MensRights	15/08/17 10:02 PM
25	Thank you Dad Statistics without context are meaningless.	/r/MensRights	15/08/17 07:35 PM
0	Why are girls attracted to guys who can be quite rude and disrespectful (jerks basically)? Some girls are attracted to guys who have enough confidence that they can act rude and disrespectful. The rudeness and disrespect itself often are seen as unattractive.	/r/seduction	27/08/16 01:31 AM
2	Double Standards Regarding this, I remember reading a study within the last year that showed that children developed self-esteem when they believed they were loved by their parent(s) just for being themselves. True confidence was built when children knew they were responsible for a success. They quickly saw through pointless trophies.	/r/MensRights	31/10/15 04:43 PM
-2	The Rise of Victimhood Culture - A recent scholarly paper on “microaggressions” uses them to chart the ascendance of a new moral code in American life. We are capable of addressing both this and "real problems" at the same time.	/r/MensRights	11/09/15 07:20 PM
-5	The Rise of Victimhood Culture - A recent scholarly paper on “microaggressions” uses them to chart the ascendance of a new moral code in American life. Well, sounds like there isn't much else I can do then. I guess you really shouldn't be upset if someone says "Man up!" and pressures you into doing something dangerous. That's just stupid, right? And it's so stupid that telling a boy "Man up!" every day for his whole childhood will have absolutely no detrimental effect on his concept of what it means to be a man. If only there was a term to describe subtle misandrist assumptions that seep into language and influence society, steering people away…	/r/MensRights	11/09/15 06:23 PM
-2	The Rise of Victimhood Culture - A recent scholarly paper on “microaggressions” uses them to chart the ascendance of a new moral code in American life. Easy to do if you have never experienced it. Kind of like how wealthy people reject all sorts of social problems the poor experience. You have to listen to people who experience something, try to put yourself in their place and actively empathize. Only when you think you can see it from their point of view should you stand back and critique it. Have you done that? Have you had an honest conversation with someone who claims to have experienced microaggressions? Or have you just dismissed it becau…	/r/MensRights	11/09/15 05:44 PM
-4	The Rise of Victimhood Culture - A recent scholarly paper on “microaggressions” uses them to chart the ascendance of a new moral code in American life. No, it is not a concern that needs to be addressed, accepting of course insofar as to discredit the idea that it is in any way important whatsoever Before you seek to discredit something, perhaps you should understand it: http://curt-rice.com/2014/05/31/do-sweat-the-small-stuff-microaggression-matters/ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/29/1242339/-Racial-and-gendered-microaggressions-and-hypersensitivity-or-one-last-straw-after-another	/r/MensRights	11/09/15 05:31 PM
-7	The Rise of Victimhood Culture - A recent scholarly paper on “microaggressions” uses them to chart the ascendance of a new moral code in American life. The theory discussed is interesting but the example used is stupid. Microaggressions (no need to put quotes around it OP, its a real term with a concept you can learn about if you don't understand) are real and should be addressed, but the Hispanic student used as an example is being overly sensitive. Just like any group of people, you can always find those who are ready to take offense at the drop of a hat and make a big fuss over it. Even in dignity culture, as described in the article, there …	/r/MensRights	11/09/15 04:57 PM
6	Found in my girlfriend's dorm People keep telling me to check my privilege, but honestly I've checked it many times and it's not going anywhere.	/r/MensRights	27/01/15 02:01 PM
5	Male music artist groped by female at show, addresses double standard Thanks... I guess. I'm not familiar with the term "slag". I don't know who Pip is or where chester is. So, all in all, this whole thing seemed quite confusing for me. EDIT: Ah... now I get it. I normally don't click on links because hoverzoom just pops the image up for me. But you have to visit the link to get the full story. I had only seen the instagram pic.	/r/MensRights	02/05/14 04:10 PM
4	Male music artist groped by female at show, addresses double standard Can someone translate this for me? ELI40.	/r/MensRights	02/05/14 02:51 PM
2	If men did this.... Your whole comment is absolutely correct. There are no "good guys" here. It's extremists versus extremists.	/r/MensRights	06/12/13 05:12 AM
6	Turns out what we really lack is severe anti-rape laws. Damn dude, you hit the nail right on the head. Have an upvote.	/r/MensRights	19/10/13 05:44 AM
7	The Young Turks get it right sometimes. On rape, off all things! I agree with you. I've watched alot of TYT. Sometimes I disagree with Ana, but usually I find they are asking and responding to the correct issues in today's news. I find it to be a great alternative to the mainstream news outlets.	/r/MensRights	23/08/13 02:40 AM
1	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Hey that sounds like a great idea. I didn't even know about the science tag! Thanks!	/r/TheRedPill	14/06/13 08:55 PM
6	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Thanks for the answers. I think I am beginning to believe that the red pill style of dealing with a relationship is best left to people who get in relationships with immature women. If both people are mature with a healthy sense of self-esteem and good communication skills most of this stuff is unnecessary.	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 06:19 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions So, for a minute I thought I had broken a sidebar rules of posting. I just reread them all again. They are good rules actually and designed for open and honest debate and criticism. So I'm not sure what rule I'm breaking. But if I am, please be a little more specific and I will stop doing it. Do you really think that none of us have known reasonable women? Some of your peers in this subreddit seem to be trying to tell me that (for example) no woman will mature to level of a man. I was a bit conf…	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 06:06 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions You are excused from logical debate because you have been found wanting. Nice to know I have met my judge! I neither desire nor require your judgement or blessings. You know where else I can go to get personally attacked while presenting careful and critical analysis of ideas?: /r/feminism How ironic that you've displayed the same behavior of personal attacks when you run out of answers to critical questions.	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 05:48 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Men are much more direct and straightforward. We see a girl, we judge her by her looks, we want to fuck her. Until we get burned too many times, we believe the Disney fairy tale on instinct, we want to princess a girl and take care of her and provide her with the moon and the stars. Only my very first relationship had such ridiculous undertones. I was in my late teens and after that I kind of grew up and moved past that shit. As a married guy, you should check out Married Man Sex life Primer by …	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 05:20 AM
4	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Yes. There is no equality. So what do you mean by this. I don't want to put words into your mouth or misinterpret. There are many different forms of equality. Equality of opportunity, equality of outcome, equality under the law, etc. If you are saying that women are not the same as a man. Absolutely! I totally agree. Do they deserve equal treatment under the law? Of course! Should they be treated with equal respect? Of course! Should they have the society structured such that it ensures they hav…	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 04:49 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions The whole idea is to realize that men and women have different needs in a relationship. As our society is structured, the womens needs are perceived as just and fair, and men's needs are perceived as childish and immature. The goal of redpill mentality is to equalize those needs. I guess I did. But I never really had the preconceived notion that my needs were childish or immature. And I always assumed that men and women had different needs. It's a little bit obvious. Actually, I kind of find it …	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 04:29 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions I disagree. I am not appealing to illegitimate authorities nor are the theories presented here popular by any stretch of the imagination. You misunderstand fallacies. It is still a fallacy even if the "authority" in your Appeal to Authority is legitimate. Its a logical fallacy because its not a logical argument and is instead just a "trust that guy" type statement. Similarly, Appeal to Popularity doesn't require that the "popular" perspective be popular to the masses. In this case it is popular …	/r/TheRedPill	13/06/13 04:09 AM
-2	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions You say; nuh - uh, NAWALT. Check the conversation again. I have never said "Not all women are like that." In fact, other people try to take my points and turn it into me saying NAWALT because when they can twist my point into this handy-dandy acronym they feel confident they can dismiss it. When I say that I some marriages survive financial catastrophe, the point is that quite a lot of them do. It's not just a marginal percentage. This point directly undermines the generality that women are inca…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 03:57 PM
5	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions So just because you give something an acronym doesn't mean the point carries any more weight (yes, I have read the glossary). Marriages that survive financial catastrophe are not edge cases. We are not talking about 1% here. We are talking about a large percentage. So, it's not "not all women are like that", its "many women are not like that".	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 02:39 PM
2	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Same bullshit has happened when they tried to claim people were equal as well /cough feminism /cough. Well, most Mens Rights Activists and nearly everyone agrees with "old school feminism", which is really egalitarianism. The bad shit started with new feminism. And is the problem with modern feminism the concept of equality? No. The problem is that they abandoned equality and are trying to paint all men as violent psychopathic rapists. That's not exactly equality, is it? And it too sounds like a…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 07:21 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions First of all, the models presented here are probabilistic, not deterministic. Exceptions to the rule can and do occur. Nobody here who knows what they're talking about will say that ALL women in the world are self-entitled and immature, but they will say that enough are to make it a useful generality. Thanks for clearing that up. It is a bit confusing because many of the statements being thrown out seem to be blanket statements applying to ALL women. Do you think the sample size of those women c…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 06:58 AM
4	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Very interesting. Its taken alot of comments, but what you just said is something I should think about longer before I give a proper response. I'll come back and edit this tomorrow after I've had time to think about it. EDIT: OK, I've mulled over your comment for 24 hours now. Here are my thoughts: If I understand what you are getting at correctly it is something like this: In order to mature in ways you described (becoming your best, action and consequences, etc) a person must undergo adversity…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 06:38 AM
1	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Accepted truths and truths are two different things. A truth does not have to be accepted to be true, and simply because something is accepted as truth, doesn't make it true. But the opinions expressed as "truth" in the "Women in Love" and "Men in Love" Blog have no social science backing to them that I know of. They literally are just opinons. Why is the truth so fucking dangerous? It isn't, you simply think it is because you've been conditioned to think so. Getting beyond the "truth" part, I w…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 06:09 AM
9	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions This isn't isn't the place to kick back and play "let's take everything everyone says verbatim so we can ramble off topic for 5 fucking hours," we don't put up with that shit here. I'm not playing a game. I'm just trying to understand. Much of what is said in this subreddit is dramatically different than any other subreddit. As such, I view it as important to pay attention to the details of what is being said. I don't like assuming your answer, because its a really bad way to learn something new…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 06:00 AM
10	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions I do expect it and I get it on a daily basis. My wife is German and she damn well works though life problems with me in a by-the-book logical manner. She shows maturity and a calm rational approach to most problems. I didn't marry a child, and I don't know why someone would. When either of us acts childish we point it out to the other. Why do so many men insist that only these self-entitled immature "child-women" exist? If you get into a relationship with these girls of course you can't treat th…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 05:48 AM
6	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions You're really trying hard to read shit into what he's saying. Nobody said they don't mature, we said they do not mature to the same level, generally speaking. But aren't you reading shit into what he's saying now. I'm just asking honest questions. Really. I have an open mind and I'm just asking critical questions as they occur to me. Is that ok? Specifically redpillschool said, "You're misunderstanding, women aren't going to mature". He did not say, "they do not mature to the same level, general…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 05:41 AM
4	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions 1) sex and race are not related. I used a more provocative example in an attempt to illustrate my point. 2) it's not misogynistic because it shows no hatred of women. It takes a whole gender and applies a blanket statement saying they are mentally incapable of doing something. It may not be hatred, but damn it skirts that line by being derogatory. financial problems are the leading cause of divorce; women will abandon you if you can't afford them. And yet some marriages do survive financial cata…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 05:29 AM
3	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions I have comments on what you've said already, but I'll wait until you edit it later and write more. :) My EDIT: I know, this is a hard pill to swallow. But it's true. Please provide some evidence. Because to me it just seems like an interesting opinion. I don't go swallowing pills just because some random internet dude says to. ;) Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved. Do you believe this statement applies as a general tendency among women or are yo…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 05:21 AM
4	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions You make really good points. I will admit that I've always used the term "sexist" interchangeably with "misogynistic" when applied towards women. I also get what you are saying about this subreddit being openly sexist, although I'm not sure whether I believe that this subreddit is also not misogynistic. Some of what I'm seeing is not just "women are different". Much of it is "women are inferior" type stuff. In the end I don't really care because it's not my place to come into a subreddit and beg…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 05:17 AM
4	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Since when does the truth require being provable Umm... so generally speaking one does not accept something as "truth" unless it can be proven in some reasonable fashion. Until it is proven its fairly standard to refer to something as "opinion". But I do agree I like the bouncing around of ideas. :) Is this racist even though its generally true? First off, your example is messed up because saying that black people are faster then white people is not a statement that denigrates them. So it is not…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 05:08 AM
6	A Critique of Red Pill teachings + Some Questions Why wouldn't a woman mature? I find your point of view strange. I have watched women mature in my life. I guess it might come down to our definitions of maturity. Usually by maturity most people mean the ability to rationally and responsibly handle the difficulties of adult life. You won't compel them to do something they don't think is necessary for them to have a proper mate. So is your opinion that a woman won't do anything beyond the minimum necessary to find the best mate? I must be misinte…	/r/TheRedPill	12/06/13 04:51 AM
1	I Cheated On My Husband To Secure Better Genes For My Children Classic female sociopath. Try not to extrapolate this to women in general. I wouldn't want all men judged on the behavior of male sociopaths.	/r/MensRights	27/04/13 04:53 AM
1	So there's a polling app called "Show of Hands." I'll just leave this here. Nope. I also came here to say that.	/r/MensRights	19/02/13 03:49 AM
13	I am putting this here because I will be ridiculed elsewhere It's easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback on these kinds of things. Likely he was so surprised he was left speechless and possibly emotionally confused.	/r/MensRights	14/12/12 07:34 PM
3	feminist myth of women earning $0.72 to a man's $1 repeated in u.s. presidential debate Perhaps its time to ask for a raise. :)	/r/MensRights	18/10/12 02:39 AM
3	Why tomorrow is a BIG day for the MRM Here is why I'm for Obamacare, based on just the information in this post (I'm actually for it based also on detailed information found outside this post as well, but I'll restrict my points to things relevant to MRM): The points you make about the USPSTF are all about giving valuable benefits to women. Yes, it is a shame that men are excluded from this, but those things will still do plenty of good for plenty of people. I'm not the type to say "well if I can't have it then nobody can!" After wo…	/r/MensRights	28/06/12 02:48 PM
65	What a wonderful world we live in edited for privacy If society shows more tolerance towards immaturity in women, you will end up with more immature women. The solution to a trend such as this is to start expecting more maturity in the women around us.	/r/MensRights	04/04/12 04:39 PM
4	Father pays to rear a girl who, unknown to him, is not his biological daughter. Connecticut Supreme Court rules that he can proceed with a lawsuit demanding that the bio-father pay him half what it cost to rear her. I think the concept is the that she has already paid her half by being there to raise her daughter. However, the biological father did not and conversely caused someone else to pay for him. Thus, the non-bio father was seeking to recover half the costs of raising the child from the bio father. There is a difference between justice and vengeance.	/r/MensRights	03/02/12 07:06 AM
17	I just realized that in the 17 years that I've been sexually active, not one woman respected my wishes when I declined sex. Solution: Start holding your partner accountable for acting in a mature manner. If she behaves like a child then tell her that. Don't get drawn into her guilt games. Stay calm and detached. When she asks what she is doing wrong just be honest and calm. Here is something that took me a while to understand about women: most of them find it attractive when you don't fall for their manipulations. They view it as you have a backbone and you become more of a challenge. So don't be afraid to stand up f…	/r/MensRights	21/12/11 01:02 AM
25	I just realized that in the 17 years that I've been sexually active, not one woman respected my wishes when I declined sex. At first I was like, "Oh, this guys a troll!" And then I followed the link. Holy shit...are you serious? You believe that utter bullshit? I am a married man and my wife and I both get along just fine with the 50/50 concept. I have refused sex in the past. She does not lose her composure over it and she reacts as a mature adult. People need to learn to be more mature in a relationship, not how to control another person.	/r/MensRights	21/12/11 12:51 AM