textrovert Archive

Upvotes	Title	Category	Author	Subreddit	Date (UTC)

Upvotes	Comment on	Subreddit	Date (UTC)
14	[META] Let's have a more professional environment at r/MR. It is not acceptable for a moderator to engage in a pattern of personal attacks and censorship, harming the men's rights movement It's almost as if they were targeting more moderate posters who they considered to be a greater threat/have a greater chance of changing people's minds. Ha, yeah, they're real threatening It's more likely because those two are everywhere on the feminist subreddits. I stay the fuck out of here and even generally avoid the posts that link here on SRS (this is a rare exception - I'm procrastinating on work. Don't worry, I'm not adding or subtracting any internet points in this foray!), but /r/mensr…	/r/MensRights	09/12/11 06:26 AM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. I agree with you on the default woman-as-victim rhetoric that goes on both within and without feminism. But that's a vibrant argument within feminism - by way of example, here's an article by Naomi Wolf about abolishing anonymity for accusers in rape cases for that reason. A lot of your response makes a lot of generalizations about "feminism," which ignores that it's a diverse movement with a lot of dissent within. The other issue is that you seem to be saying that when men succeed, it is becaus…	/r/MensRights	22/07/11 02:12 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. I'm not speaking for myself. I'm saying that if it were taken to a vote, people (men and women alike) think women are better suited to take care of children, and men to lead the country. It's stupid, but that's the entire issue, and it's up to both men and women to take a look at how we gender stereotype people. But it's disingenuous to say that gender stereotypes only affect men. Men keep men from the domestic sphere, women keep men from the domestic sphere, women keep women from the political …	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 02:25 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. From the idea that femininity is inherently (that is, essentially) good, and masculinity is bad. It may not be recognized as essentialism by feminists, but that's what it is. This is what I was saying does not exist in academic feminism. There is no such thing as a gender essence - i.e. there's no such thing as femininity or masculinity, except for the way society sorts human characteristics into two artificial boxes. I don't even hear "patriarchy" much, but the "patri" comes not from the idea t…	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 02:11 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. If the sex of the candidate weren't an issue, it would be much closer to 50/50. Also, "they"? Is this us vs. them, male vs. female? I thought that's what you accused feminists of doing. Men and women alike don't vote for women in power. Men and women alike don't like to see men as primary caregivers to children. It is exactly the same, and it's everybody's problem, not whichever sex you belong to.	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 02:05 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. We can eliminate presidents, governors, congressmen, etc, because those positions are elected and women make up a larger percentage of voters than men. In other words, if women aren't being elected, it's because women either aren't running for election, or women aren't being elected by the largest bloc of voters who are women. This can't be seen as systemic discrimination, and even if one could argue that it reflects societal sexism, the power to change that lies with women. This makes it sound …	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 01:49 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. Because there was a time, before this again, where women, if they were brave enough to demand a divorce and get one, would not have a chance of custody of the kids. Before the 20th century, divorce was extremely rare, and whoever left, left, and didn't get the kids. It's interesting to note that in the real-life case A Doll's House was based upon, it was the husband who divorced the wife and committed her to an asylum. Also, audiences at the time reacted so strongly against a woman being separat…	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 01:35 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. The idea of gender "essence" has been roundly discredited, at the very least in the academic community, decades ago (I am a PhD student in a humanities department, and while my work has nothing to do with gender, my university is well-known for gender/queer studies, so I'm familiar with the current conversation). I've never heard a thing about the "male essence" (or female essence) of anything except reading early misguided feminist criticism which was always eye-rolled by the prof, and if anyon…	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 01:09 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. But it doesn't allow for some women having more power than the vast majority of all men and being part of the ruling class. Of course it does. That is the entire point of the term. But it's just disingenuous to say that the existence of exceptional cases of women in power means that the likelihood/frequency of those cases is irrelevant and meaningless. Would you say Angela Merkel has power because she is a woman? It's like me arguing that we have absolutely no problems with racism towards minori…	/r/MensRights	21/07/11 12:59 PM
1	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. It seems we've had a productive conversation, and reached something close to consensus, on the internet. Amazing! I'd be interested to hear your responses to the links. Thanks!	/r/MensRights	20/07/11 08:50 PM
0	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. I do understand how you could have the perception that female gender roles have been more relaxed than men's - because they involved breaking into the public sphere, which is more formalized than the private. It is a fair point. But I think it's way more acceptable nowadays for a man to not have to be the primary breadwinner of a family, to express feelings of sadness or affection freely, to be a super-involved father, to be a pacifist, than it was in the early-mid 20th century. Still not equal …	/r/MensRights	20/07/11 07:32 PM
4	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. Kyriarchy is not inconsistent with this. It allows, for example, that rich women generally have more power relative to poor men. But that the type of advantage and disadvantage varies widely in different arenas and contexts (political, domestic, corporate, academic, etc.). Basically, it takes away the absolutes and allows a more dynamic understanding of power relationships.	/r/MensRights	20/07/11 06:32 PM
2	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. I agree that we've come a long way, both for women and men. But I don't think it's possible to just eliminate gender roles for one and not the other. It's an entire system where each stereotype or prejudice depends on the other side. The problem is that it's complicated now because ostensibly, under the law, men and women are supposed to be treated the same. But you look at family court rulings being decided overwhelmingly in favor of women and elected officials overwhelmingly being men, or you …	/r/MensRights	20/07/11 06:27 PM
2	A concise response to claims of patriarchy. I prefer the term kyriarchy to patriarchy; systems of power disadvantage and advantage different categories of people in different ways and in different situations. But to me the influence of traditional gender roles (what some would call patriarchy) seems clear in these examples: Suicide rates and work statistics - restrictive gender roles and the pressure to fit a certain mold of "manliness" are complemented by traditional roles of "femininity" that keep women in the home or in childcare or nu…	/r/MensRights	20/07/11 04:53 PM
5	Take It Like a Man: Feminist attitudes towards male survivors of rape and abuse There are strong ideological splits in feminism. To compare it to Nazism is just misinformed, and means you've decided to define it by its extremist edges because it makes it easier to argue against - like the bigoted author of the article. The word "equality" is the cornerstone of feminism. If you read MAINSTREAM contemporary feminism, it is very much engaged with men's rights. This article is anti-feminist, and if she claims to speaks for most feminists, she is just nuts.	/r/MensRights	09/01/11 07:20 PM
1	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin This is an interesting argument, and I thank you for presenting it in a reasonable way. I agree that cultural gender norms evolved in response to biological conditions. It wasn't out of some male need to subjugate women, but in response to conditions like the fact that women are the ones who actually bear the children, so they were the caregivers while men went hunting. This later evolved into women being seen as properly domestic (private sphere), and men being properly political (public sphere…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 02:40 PM
1	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin Well, let's talk about what you just said: And always leave children in our care, because we are morally superior by nature. That's the kind of thinking feminism has made its enemy from the get-go. Women are imaginatively dichotomized into either saints (morally superior) or devils. Neither is fully human. The saints properly belong to the domestic sphere and are thus assumed "naturally" better at childrearing. Thus anyone who argues this is anti-feminist, and actually arguing for the original p…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 01:22 PM
1	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin Uhhh, no. Saying patriarchy hurts men too.	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 01:00 PM
1	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin Resorting to profanity and unintelligent insults is not a good way to win arguments. Will not be reading your responses because you are clearly not interested in intelligent debate.	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 01:00 PM
1	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO Warped, media-fed version of feminism. Or a militant strand that went out in the '70s. Actual feminism now is about equality and releasing people from traditional gender roles, men and women both. Women are not helpless, or victims, and men are not white knights. Morons who advocate against paternal rights are not feminists, at least not mainstream or informed ones, even if they slap on the label. Real feminists see those sorts of policies as regressive and anti-feminist, even if they ostensibly…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 07:22 AM
2	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin What's funny is that they way you phrase the question already assumes it's a zero-sum game. Do RMAs want to give up rights for women's equality? No. Neither men nor women should have to "give up rights" to get real equality! But okay, if you're looking for official policy stuff, how about paternity leave in Europe? Feminist initiatives motivated by the fact that childcare was thought to be the domain of women. Benefits men because they are able to take off work after they have a child, but defin…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 06:54 AM
2	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin You've probably felt the wrath of uninformed people who are actually influenced by traditional ideas about gender, but use the word "feminism" to mean "pro-lady in every context." Which is not its proper definition and in many cases contrary to the cause. In any case, I'm sorry that you have been subjected to that. Truly. But what I'm trying to tell you is that man-hating is not feminism. Buuuut, saying you don't believe me kind of stops this discussion in its tracks. Not much I can do about tha…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 06:24 AM
2	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin I'm a feminist academic (I'm just a grad student, getting my PhD in a humanities discipline), so I'm pretty informed about feminism and the work going on in feminist studies - it's not just my singular personal belief. Nowadays gender studies scholarship is as much about warped versions of masculinity as of femininity. I'm fighting against stereotypes and caricatures of feminism (promoted by conservative and mainstream media) because there are still serious inequalities for both sexes. You don't…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 06:05 AM
-1	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious Me! Right here! I'm a feminist, and see this as an issue compatible with feminism. What happened to this father is wrong. Those "anti-father" people are not feminists, at least not informed or mainstream ones. Again, the fact that he's not considered the "real" parent stems from a bullshit oldschool idea of men as breadwinners, not caregivers. Which is contrary to feminism as well as to MRA. (And feminists would argue that these advantages actually work against women's interests. And men's. All …	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 05:53 AM
-1	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious "I believe there should be a difference between the rights afforded to women as opposed to men", that would be mutually exclusive of egalitarianism, and this is what I believe Feminism is saying I'm telling you that's not what feminism is saying. I'm trying to correct a wrongheaded, media-informed view of feminism - you're talking about radical fringes like it's the mainstream. It aims for EQUAL rights for women, just as MRA aims for EQUAL rights for men. The inequalities are in different arenas…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 05:45 AM
2	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin Feminism that promotes and perpetuates the woman=victim/vulnerable, man=aggressor/invulnerable dynamic. But but but...that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of feminism and can't properly be called that. Maybe in some warped way it's pro-female, but it's definitely anti-feminist. The white knight/victim paradigm is exactly what feminists are (supposed to be) against. It's one of the fundamental bases of patriarchy (ugh, though I hate using that word), and it hurts both women and men.	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 05:39 AM
1	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO I'm not sure I understand your slave analogy, but I agree that the law that ought to be changed is that either party should be able to compel a paternity test, and if it proves negative, he should not have to pay child support. If he DID father the child, though, the law can't treat it as though he didn't, whether he wanted the child or not. The case above is an extraordinary case involving a crazy person, and wouldn't have happened had the law been as we both agree it should be in terms of pate…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 05:30 AM
2	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin What makes you think that, though? I think men should have more paternity rights and in family court in general, that men unfairly get harsher prison sentences, that they are often impeded in school, and a host of other things stemming from warped ideas of masculinity. These are all feminist positions. As well as MRA positions. I don't think you can be an informed feminist without also being a MRA. If you think this is not feminism, what you call feminism is just a skewed, media-fed, wrongheaded…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 05:14 AM
1	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO I think the only think I am arguing about is seeing these goals as anti-feminist. They're not. Feminism makes no arguments about any of this except for the abortion part (women should be able to control their own bodies). In fact, if anything, feminists would be anti-putting all the responsibility in matters of childrearing in the hands of the woman, because that perpetuates the idea that that is properly a woman's domain (rather than both partners) - and thus also renders the father useless. Th…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 05:06 AM
-1	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious So you're saying that MRAs don't believe in egalitarianism? I thought that was the entire point...?	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 04:26 AM
0	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious But wait...I read the definition really carefully, and what I would bold is the EQUAL. Not MORE, equal. I actually know these people, and many of them ARE involved with men's rights issues and are extremely reasonable, not nutjobs. "Gender Studies" nowadays is as much about studying repressive conceptions of masculinity as much as femininity. And like I said, the fact that men are often denied custody comes from an anti-feminist idea of women as caretakers and men as providers, which sucks for b…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 04:23 AM
2	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO Wait...that's exactly what I'm saying. Most of this sounds like a good idea, and totally compatible with feminism. I think either partner should be able to compel a paternity test. As far as "opting out" of an accidental pregnancy, I think the territory is a lot grayer, since then we're talking about abortion, in which case the burden is inherently on the woman. Just because she doesn't want to have an abortion doesn't mean she wants a child any more than the father, or that she is more responsi…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 04:13 AM
4	"sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that one without the imminent possibility of the other is unthinkable and impossible" -Andrea Dworkin Le sigh. Feminism is based on the idea that society evolved structures that fit people into rigid gender roles, which subordinated women. However, they also benefited them in certain ways (they were presumed innocent more often, seen as needing protection, etc.). Women AND men maintained these structures for thousands of years, and they provide the basis of many of the warped views of masculinity that inform the very inequalities MRAs work to bring attention to. Do you hate women because you bel…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 02:35 AM
-2	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious The way you frame it is exactly the problem. You're either a feminist, or a MRA. But that's crazy. I can fight for equality for women AND for men. The name for the first is feminist, and the name for the second is MRA. These are all really vague claims, so it's hard to say, but they all sound good to me! (Except do you mean that if you make a false rape claim, you should spend as much time in prison as if you actually rape someone? Definitely can't agree with that one...). Do you deny that there…	/r/MensRights	28/12/10 12:24 AM
1	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO Morally, I totally agree with you. Hence my claim that she is a deceitful bitch. Legally, though, not so much. The law can't always protect you from the consequences of trusting and being involved with crazy people. So that's my point. My understanding is that the thread is about legal inequalities in men's and women's rights. But I don't see how anyone would like the law to be changed so that both partner's rights are better protected.	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 11:22 PM
-1	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious That's a gross misunderstanding of feminism. Maybe you're against militant feminism, but so am I. I'm also against what could be called "militant men's rights advocacy." Both see men's and women's rights as a zero-sum game. I'm a feminist, and very committed to men's rights. I don't even see how you can be one without the other unless you have an incomplete understanding of the issue, which the extremists in both camps do. All the feminists I know (which is a lot, since I'm getting a PhD in a hu…	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 11:12 PM
1	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO No, you trust your partner, but the state isn't obligated to make up for it if your partner betrays that trust, or treat it like you haven't actually created a baby, intentionally or not. If a man replaces his partner's birth control pills with sugar pills, or says he gets a vasectomy but doesn't, and she gets pregnant (and can't bring herself to have an abortion), does that mean she should have no legal responsibility to the child? The state can't base child support on who intended to have or d…	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 11:00 PM
1	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO Right. And this system results from a patriarchal idea of men's and women's roles in childrearing - mainly, that men should be the breadwinners and women the caregivers. In other words, it's a law in place because of the traditional gender roles that feminism argues against. Again. Men's and women's rights are bound up in each other if the goal is equality. Feminism and men's rights should be allies.	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 10:37 PM
2	My view of men's rights: What all this arguing boils down to IMO I didn't downvote it, but I take issue with the tone of it because it's pitting men's rights against women's rights. I'm just curious: which laws would you like to see changed? I can understand asking for a court-mandated paternity test where paternity is in dispute. But would you rather women be forced to have abortions when they don't want them? And as for the woman stopping birth control in the first place, I don't see how the state could intervene there. He made the decision to leave birth c…	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 10:29 PM
2	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious Feminism as it should be IS a type of egalitarianism. Just like Men's Rights as it should be. My point, though, is that men's interests and women's interests are inextricably bound up in each other, and pitting feminism against men's rights is incredibly counterproductive. This is such a great example, because the idea of woman-as-caregiver is exactly the sort of rigid role feminism has been trying to debunk for decades, and here is an example of how it is ALSO detrimental to men. But instead of…	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 08:59 PM
2	Ohio Dad Stops Adoption Try; Anti-Father Crowd Furious This is not feminism. Not not not. This is exactly what feminism is against. Patriarchal culture promotes ideas of women as the caregivers, and THAT is where the idea that the father is not the "real" parent comes from. I agree that comment is disgusting, but faulting feminism is so, so misguided. Feminism is about EQUALITY. The whole point is that patriarchy hurts men as well as women, because it denies both sexes full humanity. Making feminism into the enemy gets no one anywhere.	/r/MensRights	27/12/10 07:47 PM