“Toxic masculinity” — what’s wrong?

xfceice · 2019-01-14T21:11:01+00:00

What is wrong with toxic masculinity is that it is used in a way that implies men have an innate potential for toxicity. Unless society tells me what's right, I am expected to become toxic.

Of course I have a problem with a statement like that.

Certain encouraged behaviors are detrimental, yes. That goes for a lot of things in our world.

Also, if you always talk about toxic masculinity but never about toxic femininity or toxic other things, I am going to assume you have a problem with specifically me and the sex I happened to be born a part of.

Furthermore, I don't think we need a discussion on either toxic masculinity or toxic feminity. It's just a dumb discussion. There's toxic behaviors in a lot of people and these tend to differ in kind and shape across demographics, yes. So what? You don't see me going around preaching against toxic black behavior or toxic anything. Because I don't have a right to single out a demographic like it's a uniform block of people, and I don't have a right to generalize the behavior of some people to the entire demographic they belong to.

iainmf · 2019-01-15T01:40:16+00:00

Are there any people in r/MensRights who believe that there are certain encouraged masculine behaviors that are detrimental? What are they, if they exist?

Being encouraged to put your own needs aside and focus on others needs is harmful.

Being expected to just sit there an take it when people spout nonsense about masculinity is harmful.

Being expected to not advocate for your own rights is harmful.

though let’s agree that the phrase in itself has a negative connotation that can easily be interpreted to mean all masculinity is toxic.

Why do people keep using the term, knowing that it has become a detriment to communication rather than a help? Or knowing that people find it objectionable? continued use of the term just shows a lack of concern for men's feelings. That's tragically ironic because indifference to men's feeling leads to men not wanting to express themselves. Using the term 'toxic masculinity' actually creates 'toxic masculinity'.

There's also a bait and switch going on where 'toxic masculinity' is about societal expectations, but then to combat it individual men have to change by 'unlearning' it. That strikes me as a recipe for failure because those men will be returning to the same society with the same expectations.

It's also backwards. Having classes to unlearn toxic masculinity means we expect men to exhibit toxic behaviours. That's just another kind of reinforcement.

Let's say we expected men to be open with there emotions and to seek help when they needed it. Then we would see more support services tailored to men. And the fact is when you provide respectful support services for men they use them.

So the fact that people continue to use a term that creates more confusion and shows a lack of respect for men's feelings, and efforts to combat toxic masculinity are based on the same negative expectations they claim to work against shows me that the people who do those things are more interested in changing men than helping men.

shit-zen-giggles · 2019-01-15T04:15:06+00:00

“Toxic masculinity” — what’s wrong?

It's just bullshit shaming language. Verbal abuse at societal scale if you want. The people who use that term don't care about men (quite the contrary). All they care about is controlling the dialogue, to turn it into a monologue in order to gain power.

Are there any people in r/MensRights who believe that there are certain encouraged masculine behaviors that are detrimental? What are they, if they exist?

Sacrificing you health and eventually your life to protect/provide for others. That our lifes and bodies don't matter. That we don't matter, only what we can do/provide.

Women are human beings and men are human doings is a phrase that sums it up quite well.

Are there any people in r/MensRights who believe that there are certain encouraged masculine behaviors that are detrimental? What are they, if they exist?

Every virtue in excess becomes a vice. So no, there are no "encouraged" masculine behaviors that are detrimental per se. It's when it goes into excess.

Hope I could help.

goodmod · 2019-01-15T02:21:42+00:00

Feminists pay great attention to the subtleties of words. Thus, they have insisted on "fireman" being changed to "firefighter" and so on.

So what are we to make of the sexist insults invented and happily used by feminists? "Mansplaining", "manspreading", "patriarchy" and a host of other terms are gleefully and knowingly used as gendered slurs.

The term "toxic masculinity" is basically hate speech. Despite the objections that it is offensive to men, feminists insist on using it. That's one of the ways we know that feminism is really about hating men.

Edit: Nevertheless, I welcome discussion with open minded feminists. It's about the only way toward fixing this problem.

user_miki · 2019-01-15T12:53:42+00:00

what means toxic masculinity?How many "toxic" males are found in studies to raise the alarm?What is toxic in males?And which males ?All males from all races? Black men are toxic?Gay men are toxic?Trans men are toxic?Other genders can have simptoms of toxic masculinity or only born males?I see it not well defined.And how we arrived as such toxic levels( that we need APA guidelines for treatment) taking into account that 40% of boys now are raised by single mothers and 80% of teachers are women.Who raised those boys to be "toxic"?It is biological?In male DNA? I see feminist dogma says all women and men are the same except the genitals and sex is socially contructed.Also the APA did not quote researchers in biology or brain chemistry or neurology only socio-psychologists.

So this toxicity if exists where it comes from?

there are plenty rational questions if you take seriously this "toxic" masculinity assumption.

2019-01-15T17:10:33+00:00

We can agree here that if the premise is that "traditional gender roles are outdated and therefore partially toxic" then masculinity and femininity both contain toxic elements.

The problem is we don't ever hear about those toxic elements of femininity. We don't see pushes to change women's internal definitions of themselves. We only ever hear about masculine toxicity. This creates a very blatant implication of inherent moral superiority that's not hard to pick up.

Moreover, when it comes to how "positive masculinity" is defined, we rarely see behaviors discussed that aren't either traditionally feminine, or traditionally masculine behaviors which are explicitly in service to women.

Simply put the entire terminology reeks of women with no understanding of the male experience dictating to us how we should act 'for our own good', and naturally that doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

xfceice · 2019-01-14T22:51:28+00:00

Because we are convinced by the chorus: where you choose to put your attention is not neutral, and representation matters.

If this post is contained within r/MensRights, isn’t it reasonable to assume you are surrounded by a community of users who understand gendered bias? Who can approach the question level-headedly? If anywhere, this should be the safest place to have these discussions, as at least they are being directed at the group of people in concern. If asking the question is detrimental in itself, isn’t that indicative of a deeper problem? Shouldn’t I be up in arms about free speech, political correctness, snowflakes?

To answer the question of why it should stop us, it's because every time we acknowledge "toxic masculinity" as a thing, it gives ammunition to people who use the phrase to mean "masculinity is toxic." There are better words.

I think preceding the post with “though let’s agree that the phrase in itself has a negative connotation that can easily be interpreted to mean all masculinity is toxic” sufficiently acknowledges its bias. It’s not about acknowledging the word. It’s about acknowledging the premise of its existence, the principles underlying its use and popularity. If I called it “zygync,” do you think people would be more keen on discussing it then?

Title	“Toxic masculinity” — what’s wrong?
Author	xfceice
Upvotes	0
Comments	18
Date	January 14, 2019 9:01 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ag0c26/toxic_masculinity_whats_wrong/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity-whats-wrong.886531 https://theredarchive.com/post/886531

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