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On Liberalism

dulqarnayn

June 6, 2020

1 upvotes

/r/MuslimRedPill

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Post Information

Title	On Liberalism
Author	dulqarnayn
Upvotes	1
Comments	5
Date	June 6, 2020 4:31 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MuslimRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/muslimredpill/comments/gxu4fs/on_liberalism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MuslimRedPill/on-liberalism.780801 https://theredarchive.com/post/780801

Comments

[–]Silly-Freak -1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Beyondthet 1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

debate, as in the exchange of arguments and ideas -, he won't allow his opponent to comment,

Sorry but this is the nature of modern debate platforms. Anyone who has any idea knows this and it's one of the unwritten rules when two "professors" organise a panel to debate. if you don't utterly and completely humiliate your opponent on the panel, it doesn't count. Both speakers are aware of this. It's essentially a 'show' to entertain the masses rather than a sincere exchange of ideas.

And this is the nature of debate in general pertaining to any subject because this is a part of human nature. They turn out to be more about arguments and ego rather than sincere beneficial debate. That's why in Islam, generally debating is frowned upon and disliked.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: “I guarantee a palace on the outskirts of Paradise for a man who gives up arguing even if he is right.” [Abu Daawood, Al-Albaani - Hasan]

With regards to sincere debate, there are times when this is needed, especially in the circumstance of talking to non-Muslims who are also sincere, the Qur'an says:

Allah said:

Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and argue with them in a way that is better. Surat al-Nahl 16:125

Ibn Kathir comments on this verse, saying:

If anyone wants to argue and debate with them, then let him do so in the best manner with kindness, gentleness, and good preaching.

Source: Tafsīr Ibn Kathīr 16:125

[–]Silly-Freak 1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I thank you for your response!

Sorry but this is the nature of modern debate platforms.

It is not. I am aware that "exchange of arguments and ideas" is an idealistic proposition and the reality is more, find a minor technicality and push your opponent on it, ignoring the essence of the opponent's argument in the process, so that the listeners get the impression your opponent is wrong in every way, even though you never disproved anything of importance. That's "fine". But if you watch the video I've linked, this is not what I'm talking about.

Censoring the YT comments is not part of the debate itself, but it is evidence of intellectual dishonesty, or fear of counter arguments.

Editing the video is also not part of even modern debate, which happened there and then. It is a propaganda tactic, aimed at people who did not witness the debate as it happened, and are not supposed to ever do so.

I am unversed in Islamic texts, as you will likely expect, so I will not comment deeply on the verses. However, it seems to me that, given Mohammed Hijab chose to debate, he should have done so in a better manner than he did, no?

And independent of whether Islam would expect better of him or not, he still is, according to my standards and based on the evidence I've seen, horribly dishonest.

[–]Beyondthet 1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is not. I am aware that "exchange of arguments and ideas" is an idealistic proposition and the reality is more, find a minor technicality and push your opponent on it

It is an idealistic proposition indeed.

Censoring the YT comments is not part of the debate itself, but it is evidence of intellectual dishonesty, or fear of counter arguments.

You know, it is not as simple as that. I mean, in the same vain, we have people who come here and try to challenge our ideas and we ban them and remove their comments too. Then they have the nerve to say, "oh you guys say you are for free speech." Yes, we are. But for some reason you guys think you can come here call me an asshole, and/or repeat some unthoughtful NPC response which has already been challenged in the same post/comments and on top of that, the only reason you came here in the first place was to brigade. I'm sorry but that's not good enough. My point is: the reason he is deleting comments is something I do not know. But sometimes there are valid reasons to delete comments which do not impede on freedom of speech and intellectual discourse. Now what his reason is exactly, I don't know. I haven't watched the video or saw those comments you are referring to. I'm just making general arguments on the matter.

but it is evidence of intellectual dishonesty, or fear of counter arguments.

Come on, there is very little intellectual honesty left. I mean look at the black lives matter movement. They are protesting for black lives and more blacks lives have been murdered as a result of the protests than the actual killing of George Floyd himself. I mean????

This goes back to the nature of debate and why islamically, we are told to avoid it. Because nothing fruitful can come from debates and arguments in most cases. It's all ego investment. That's all it is.

Editing the video is also not part of even modern debate, which happened there and then. It is a propaganda tactic

But this is so common. I mean it's even happening in the Whitehouse between the two biggest political parties and 'intellectuals' in suits of our time. I mean the Trump campaign made a video about George Floyd and Twitter who more aligned with the left just removed the video under the guise of a copyright complaint. Even though it was meant to be fair use (I think they used some graffiti showing the George Floyd memorabilia or something petty like that.) This happens all the time.

Solution? Exactly what the Qur'an says. Avoid debates. Now, how exactly you can avoid debates in a political campaign, I don't know but it's one of the reasons why Democracy is stupid and it doesn't work because the mentally ill, criminals and just outright ridiculous people have the right to vote. That's why the truly great and impartial thinkers the likes of you are trying to patent your arguments over, the truly impartial and great thinkers, like Aristotle and Plato knew that democracy wouldn't work. There's too much idiots. I'm sorry.

For example, look. You have a country. And in that country you deal with economics, politics, international affairs, local affairs, legislation and law. These are not something that should be the opinions of the public. These are something that should be the opinions of the experts. People study these subjects for many years until they become scholars of those fields. Yet, these people are being overlooked by the opinions of some daft cunt who doesn't know how to tie his own shoelaces let alone understand the importance of handling the affairs of the entire country.

And that is why the Founding fathers were against absolute democracy and they were right in this matter. They weren't stupid people. They read the world of Plato and Aristotle and so on. And Islam says the same thing.

given Mohammed Hijab chose to debate, he should have done so in a better manner than he did, no?

It's not upon me to say because as I reiterate I haven't watched the video and I also don't know under which context he deleted the comments and edited the footage. But I will say this, these debates in general in my opinion are not worth one's time and effort and they are not beneficial for one's Islam. We should avoid debating and those who are sincerely interested in discussion, fine. But these organised events and platforms are very much the cause for harmful debate that which Islam advises us to refrain from. That much is apparent.

And independent of whether Islam would expect better of him or not, he still is, according to my standards and based on the evidence I've seen, horribly dishonest.

That's absolutely fine. You are entitled to have your opinion on this matter.

[–]Silly-Freak 1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link