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[–]Do not send modmail to my personal inboxCrazyHorseInvincible[M] [score hidden] 10 years ago stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link
TRP is for personal strategy, not fixing the state.
[–]Scurvemuch 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
you know whats great about being men?
we can come up with NEW and IMPROVED ways to get shit done and create value for ourselves.
Scared of robots? Learn to program them.
[–]IAMAwhitecismaleAMA0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
There are already AI that program other AI. Alpha stages sure but we all know how fast tech moves.
[–]TekkomanKingz1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Research Rockman X series. Sounds great in theory but robots can never program other robots as well as a human can. They are "born" with limited potential by virtue that their systems are not organic, they are artificial. Essentially androids are a "replica" leading to the nickname in the series for them which is "reploid". They can perhaps eternally repair themselves or reorganize/customize capabilities while sacrificing others but can never truly transcend the base prototype which the original human has created.
The limitation of AI is rooted in that these entities lack mitochondria. In the series, another human engineer attempts to get there but fails miserably. Mitchondria is what leads to evolution. When the mitochondria in your body all experience collective stress it triggers a set of micro-evolutions that all add up to promoting genetic change in the next generation. A lot of these micro-evolutions occur before puberty which then influences the characteristics of the sperm or eggs you will produce for the remainder of your life. This is because it is assumed by the body we are still 1 million years ago and you are procreating at the age of 16 or 18 and not 25 or 30.
Androids cannot evolve to better adapt to environmental stressors they can only repair themselves to their original state. In the series, humans are responsible for "upgrades" and even then there are only a certain amount of upgrades that can be done before "older" models must be retired and newer ones must be created with a different "core".
In the series, Rockman X the primary protagonist is referred to as the original ancestor, he is the perfect original and the majority of other antagonistic robots in the series are "imperfect" replicas of him. As time goes on in the series he is able to "evolve" mentally but still cannot change his core parameters. Of course the creator chooses to end the series when it becomes rapidly apparent that he has reached "maximum potential" 200 years after his creation. The original Rockman - Nobody knows what happened to him but most certainly he was "retired" shortly before "X" appeared. The point here is that a human was involved in both models and without the human the reploids would have obliterated each other completely and nothing would be left after the original Rockman depreciated.
TL;DR - Comparing the processing power of a supercomputer or any other AI to the human brain is pointless and here's why: It's not only apples and oranges, it is something that simply can never be compared. There are solutions which humans can come up with in seconds that a supercomputer would take thousands of years to "realize" and that is because we have set the context for the question to begin with...So the question and answer both begin and end with us...Robots will NEVER be or have the answer (in and of themselves) for any of our challenges which we created ourselves...
[–]IAMAwhitecismaleAMA0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You can program functions to act like mitochondria. Trust me, I would love it if humans would always be needed in the future but the sad truth is that we can program every little function our brain does. We'll become unnecessary.
[–]TekkomanKingz0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You truly don't understand the depth and complexity of our biology. It is impossible for us to replicate at this point. And any replicas as I mentioned will be vastly inferior to the original. The collective memory of all your mitochondria is immeasurable and processes more "data" and external stimuli than all the servers in the world.
[–]Solistx 7 points7 points7 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I highly disagree with your lesson learned. I work in the pharmaceutical packaging industry as a programmer. I work on things like PLC, HMI, and developing vision inspection systems for these machines using 3rd party software such as Halcon (HDevelop). A.K.A: I see robots being used all the time to assist in the handling and packaging of, for instance blood test vials.
There will be no robots taking over the world ordeal as this sub seems to obsess over. The reason I say so, is because behind that robot is a team of mechanics, engineers, electricians, and programmers that not only have to develop these machines, but also to maintain them. Our society is phasing out the useless jobs due to automation, but at the very same time creating highly specialized jobs due to automation.
So I forsee that in the next 50-100 years, majors like computer science, electrical engineering, etc. will be on the rise, while more archaic majors like accounting will cease to exist.
You would be surprised at the amount of maintainence goes into machinery, especially robots. These robots have to be properly lubricated, require extensive inventories of spare parts, and if there is a need to update the program behind a robot, well there ain't no one else to do it but a human.
As far as I am concerned, the technology required for robots to be able to self repair, lubricate and perform any kind of general self maintainence will be years ahead from our lifespans on this spinning rock we call home.
In conclusion, you must adapt. Learn to code, learn to wire components, and learn mechanical engineering. There is a reason there is a shortage of control engineers, and thats because people are too fucking scared to learn it. It takes lots of time, guts, blood, and stress to learn this stuff. Either adapt to the times, or Darwin will be soon knocking at your door.
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
I think computers and robots will be able to repair themselves/ each other within 20 years. R2D2 isn't too far away, and he works cheap.
[–]Solistx 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's very plausible. The time period when it will come about however, is all up to speculation.
As to cheap, yeah R2D2 works for next to nothing, but the price of buying such a piece of technology would be in the 6 figure range. Not something that your average joe would be able to afford.
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link
Once robots start building robots, even robots will be cheap. To continue the R2D2 analogy...
https://youtu.be/Xr9s6-tuppI
[–]fuckthapoliceNWA4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Don't worry there will be also plenty shelters of anti-technology hippie communities where you'll find the perfect society rules to be happy and alpha enough.
more serious answer : Stoicism is the key. You can't do much about it... Adapt.
/rant I can't believe this sub is about 'being alpha' and 90% of the posts are about complaining about one thing or the other. It's painful but hopefully there's gems sometimes and there used to be good field reports..
[–]IAMAwhitecismaleAMA1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sometimes I feel like quitting my career path and just getting a job chopping wood allday, everyday.
[–]me_gusta_poon5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link
This "robots are going to eliminate the need for human labor" bullshit comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what capital is, how it enhances our lives, and how it affects labor markets. Do yourself a favor and read an economics textbook.
[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Service labor markets exist in periods of relative stability. Politics, economics and resources--three cooperating and competing elements of civilization. You can't just assume certain economics work if you don't consider the impact of the other elements.
[–]me_gusta_poon0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I dont know what any of that means.
[–]IAMAwhitecismaleAMA0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What will happen is society will splinter into two groups: those who've made it and profit from the robot revolution and those who didn't get a piece of the pie. The 1st group will live in a utopia where no one works. The 2nd group will live in a 3rd world environment, working 12 hours a day to raise food from dirt until their robot revolution happens too. Thus, society will keep splintering like a fractal.
This is not even the worst possible realistic scenario. The worst one is if a few individuals with total control over robots decide to just grant all humans a life in the utopia but are treated like chattel with tiny rooms only allowed out at certain times.
[–]me_gusta_poon0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What will happen is society will splinter into two groups: those who've made it and profit from the robot revolution and those who didn't get a piece of the pie. The 1st group will live in a utopia where no one works.
Society will splinter!? How did you even come to this crazy conclusion?
This is not even the worst possible realistic scenario
Its not realistic at all
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link
It comes from a circumstance that has never arisen in human history, so all the economics textbooks are about to become irrelevant.
Free labor.
Show me the economics textbook that accounts for it. You can't because it doesn't exist because free labor has never existed.
[–]cantletthatstand 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
It isn't free labor. It requires electricity, replacement parts, and design/testing. That isn't free. All of those things must be amortized over the lifetime of the robot. Also, a lot of these robots are going to be using advanced circuitry - do you have any idea how much advanced, rare minerals goes into that? That's finite.
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Rare minerals will not be rare when robots are zipping unmanned to the nearest asteroids and pulling that stuff by the ton. That tech is within the lifetime of people alive today. We've already landed a rocket on a comet.
[–]cantletthatstand 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is a veritable gulf of difference between landing a small, lightweight probe on a remote body and mining resources from these bodies in quantities sufficient to satisfy industrial demand.
[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Or like the rocket we zipped to an asteroid already. Remember a robot can be shaped like a ship, or a mining drill, and they require no life support. Perfectly happy flying and working in the vacuum of space.
[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
It comes from a circumstance that has never arisen in human history
No, it has existed. It was called slavery. They were replaceable machines and if they whined too much you could take a hammer to them too.
[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And you have to power and maintain robots.
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
That labor wasn't free to the slaves, and they were actually human, not machines.
When I say 'free labor', I mean nobody has to do it.
[–]Wilter_Amodgego 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well, the effect is the same.
Not when you are talking about humans it isn't. You can't say 'Humans had free labor. Slaves.' Because you have arbitrarily removed all the humans that were doing the labor.
[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
That's not how they were seen back then. They were beasts of burden.
Seen by who? I doubt they thought of themselves as beasts.
You think the slavers gave a fuck what they thought about themselves??
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You are missing the point. If humans had to do the work, it wasn't free. You can't just divide out the people that were doing the work and say humans didn't have to work. Humans did the work.
Soon robots will do the work.
You can't just divide out the people that were doing the work and say humans didn't have to work.
Sure you can. You just declare them subhuman and go along with your day.
[–]me_gusta_poon0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It comes from a circumstance that has never arisen in human history,
False. These are circumstances that have arisen repeteadly throughout history. Over and over and over again. Each time people like you are wrong. People like you are constantly wrong because they dont know what theyre talking about. What are robots? Robots are capital.
Free Labor
There is no such thing
Show me an economics textbook that accounts for it
http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232
http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economics-Common-Sense-Economy/dp/0465022529
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
You wrote: "These are circumstances that have arisen repeteadly throughout history."
Examples?
"Robots are capital"
No, robots are labor that require a capital investment, but no wages, insurance, holidays, unions, etc. The question is, who will own the labor of the robots?
"Free Labor There is no such thing"
When the first generation of robots are engineered and built (at great cost), the second generation will be building themselves. They will harvest their own energy (from tech derived at great cost), and repair themselves too. Once robots are designing building and repairing themselves, and the roboticists who invented them have died, their labor becomes essentially free. No human will need to invest any time or energy into a self sustaining robotic work force. Sure, people will choose to, and until AI becomes smarter than people there will be a need for them.
But eventually the labor will be free, or so close to it as to be less than a rounding error.
The first textbook you linked was written in 1988. Before the internet changed the entire economy. Obviously it has no chapter on the effect of robotic labor on the economy, and the second book you linked has an updated chapter on 'Big Business', but nothing on robotics. Big Business is decades, if not a century old.
EDIT: grammar.
[–]me_gusta_poon0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The first textbook you linked was written in 1988.
Yes. And your argument is over 200 years old. You are a Luddite, and you have continually been BTFO by history and reality.
No, robots are labor that require a capital investment, but no wages, insurance, holidays, unions, etc.
?????????????
Capital is:
"That part of a man's stock which he expects to afford him revenue" - Adam Smith
Machines are capital. Capital makes our lives better. Capital reduces the cost of living. It enhances our ability to perform work and produce value. The accumulation of Capital is the reason why we get to spend time with our families, why children can go to school instead of work, why we have vacations, why we can spend time watching television and video games or reading books. Capital makes life better.
But eventually the labor will be free
No. There is no such thing. Thats called charity not labor. If you read those books i referenced you'll understand the difference and you'll understand what capital is, what labor is, how capital affects the labor market and wages.
Fun fact. The word 'robot' comes from the Russian word 'Robotai', which means 'labor' or 'work'.
A robot is literally a laborer.
Robots ARE labor.
[–]me_gusta_poon0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You dont think economists have ever pondered this idea? You think this has never been accounted for by economists. Really? Come on dude. Wrong.
No. Until 5 years ago I don't think a single economist (or anyone else) realized how close self driving cars and the Atlas robot were. I don't think any economist (or anyone else) had enough vision to postulate a realistic version of what was right around the corner. And in 1988 they had not even realized the internet was coming. The internet revolution will be nothing compared to the robot revolution. I think the economists that are thinking about it now are looking at the guaranteed income as a way to offset the obvious.
Robots will take most the jobs in the next generation, and virtually all of them within 3.
i think... i think... i think...
In other words you dont know. You should read those books.
I prefer to read the work of todays economists, and plan for the future they are discussing, based on the knowledge we have today, not 30 years ago.
[–]SafeWordIsCommitment4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
You seem to think that society can force robots to pay taxes. You are quite mistaken. I'll speak from experience.
Robots = No SDI, no FIT, No medicare, No expenses except electricity, repairs, and replacement parts.
Financially, a robot is really an investment -my investment. It produces returns like any other asset. In fact, the rise of robots means the collapse of the daddy state because I can't file DE9 forms on a motherboard.
[–]The_Red_Paw[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
People will create demand. Lets say for carrots. Previously farmers had to grow them, truckers had to truck them, grocers had to sell them, and chefs had to prepare them. Each of those people was producing wealth to satisfy demand. They each got paid to do their job.
When robots do all that work, all the wealth will still be created, but the farmer, driver, grocer, and cook will be out of the picture. Maybe taking classes in robotics, but certainly not doing their old job.
The people who own the robots will now be receiving the the dollars that used to go to the farmer and his pals.
Robot labor will be taxed or their produce will be nearly free. People are not just going to sit by and idly starve.
Robot labor will be taxed or their produce will be nearly free.
Yes, their produce will be nearly free. What the fuck do you think the point of robotics is? By the time the dread future you're predicting ever comes about (if it does - human are notorious for predicting doom and gloom while drastically overlooking things they couldn't have possibly known when making their predictions) - the state, through taxation, will be the most significant cost built-in to virtually every consumer product available.
Long story short? You're a man, witnessing the dawn before the robot revolution. A Raspberry Pi costs $5.
Improvise, adapt, overcome.
People are not just going to sit by and idly starve.
Are you so sure about that? Entire civilizations have vanished because of this. Parts of Africa have depopulated in the last 50 years because of this. Shooting someone may feed you today, but it can't feed you tomorrow.
Robot labor will be taxed
No it won't since they're not being paid to work.
You are correct. I should have said 'the produce from robot labor will be taxed.' The robot growing the carrot will not be taxed, but the carrot will be. Or it will be a free carrot. One way or another the wealth created by the labor has to transfer to the people that want carrots in order to solve the demand. Either free carrots, or cash to buy carrots.
[–]IAMAwhitecismaleAMA0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hell if we ever go post-currency, the government might just force companies to give up their robots for 10 percent of the year instead of money.
[–]williamwilliam2 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
More men have to find surrogate mothers. If this could become popular, it would probably be outlawed.
[–]williamwilliam2 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
With gay marriage proponents claiming kids can be raised without a mother, the women will have a harder time fighting men getting surrogate mothers.
I agree a portion of women see it as empowering (anything non-traditional to them is empowering) but most know the baby-making factor is a lifetime of cash through child support.
[–]stonepimpletilists 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Experiments with guaranteed incomes lead to higher divorce rates. What does this imply for the Red Pill Man?
Nothing, he doesn't get married.
People get screwed when they make bad choices, or get struck by lightning.
I don't golf in the rain, I'm covered either way
This is a good point, and worth more consideration.
I suppose my question is, in this new model, will men end up on the short end of the stick? Right now women need men to do the dirty work. When that is no longer required, will mens rights continue to erode, or will we swing back to true egalitarianism?
[–]KartagoPill-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Woman can have babies with woman through science.
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