Trying to understand Frame Control and Push-Pull. Please help

I have been reading up and trying to understand frame control and push-pull.

When I just finished high school, I was amazing at push-pull because I had daily examples of kids at my school doing it (naturally) to amazing success and emulated them - using similar techniques. It helped me score my first girlfriend even, because I began to do that unconciously for a while. I then forgot about the technique over time (because it was not really being reinforced anymore) and now I am trying to relearn it. I understand the basics:

Push - pushing a girl away emotionally/physically
Pull - pull her in by complementing her

My difficulty lies in understanding how to do a successful 'Push' and how to combine a compliment (with an insult?) and a push? Can someone break it down for me please?

I am also trying to intuitively understand frame control. From what I read, Frame Control seems to be having a desire/belief that you hold on to and not allow other people to convince you otherwise.

For example, I recently got a girls number after talking to her for a few minutes (she seemed enthusiastic about giving it), I waited 5 days to text her and then tried to set up a date downtown of a large city. She started giving me excuses, saying she could not and saying that we should meet on campus instead. At that time I caved in (because I was listening to the logic of the argument, but I guess one should NOT do that with women?) and she ghosted me when the time came to meet up on campus. Looking back, I think I should have been firm about meeting downtown, even when she said "I don't meet downtown with guys I don't know" (or something along those lines) even if it meant that we went our seperate ways. I should have said, "I only have time to meet on Friday this week and I prefer meeting downtown. Text me if you change your mind".

Lately, I have been having trouble attracting women or even getting them out on dates with me. Whereas I have a buddy (who is 5'4 and who is 4 years older than me, I am 24) who has girls my age always approaching him on campus. When talking to him, he always seems confident in his beliefs, never backs down from them and always states explicitly what he wants with a 'take it or leave it' attitude. This always makes me cringe inside because I always think he will offend somebody. I have been thinking that my problems with girls have been because I try to be reasonable (use logic about 'what makes sense') and thus lose frame often. I am also afraid of being ostracized if I stand to hard for what I want.

An example of letting my frame get broken for fear of getting ostracized/getting the wrong reaction was when a girl that I like, posted a bikini story on instagram where her cute butt is showing. I messaged her saying "I like your butt, ima touch it". She got pissed and said 'You are not touching my ass'. I backed down because I was afraid that she'd get even more pissed/call the police/tell her friends and ostracize me and said 'Ima mire it then' (bad I know) and she said 'sure'.

What do you guys think? Am I correct in my assessment or am I mistaken? And what solutions would you offer?

I am trying to acquire an intuitive understanding of push-pull and frame control, rather than relying on memorized lines (i feel that is not very adaptable for me and it uses up too much memory capacity to memorize lines) because I rely on being able to think of something on the spot. However, quick thinking only works for me if I understand the underlying concepts.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

You don't need to do them all at exactly the same time. I like to phrase my compliments as insults and my insults as compliments.

You need to "grow into" this. It needs to come from YOU. So you need to work out your own style.

Compliments are easy. Insults/negs are tricky and not necessary. The "push" is almost essential, and it can be anything.

She talks, and you suddenly say "do I know you? who the fuck ARE you??". Or pull her close and literally push her away while saying "I don't know where you've been" or "I'm not that sort of boy".

Gender flipping and frame-stealing are your easiest to do. ie you take the girl "showing resistance" line. EVEN IF you put her hand on your thigh before you throw her hand off you, IT STILL WORKS. Frame stealing is similar... she says "I couldn't possibly", you say "I couldn't possibly either, anything might happen, people might talk".

This is clumsy, but the point is that YOU are the prize, not the relentless pursuer hoping to get some.

From what I read, Frame Control seems to be having a desire/belief that you hold on to and not allow other people to convince you otherwise.

Right.

At that time I caved in (because I was listening to the logic of the argument, but I guess one should NOT do that with women?) a

Meh. Sometimes you have to give in a bit for a while.

she ghosted me when the time came to meet up on campus

Happens so much and so randomly you can't figure out what you did wrong. If ten girls ghost you, let us know. One doesn't mean jack.

When talking to him, he always seems confident in his beliefs, never backs down from them and always states explicitly what he wants with a 'take it or leave it' attitude.

Right. Check out his face, bodyfat, muscles too. Al factors.

I have been thinking that my problems with girls have been because I try to be reasonable (use logic about 'what makes sense') and thus lose frame often. I am also afraid of being ostracized if I stand to hard for what I want.

Ok, you're weak. Fix this. You know the problem, take steps and risks to fix this by doing the thing you fear until it's gone.

"Being reasonable" to you is "weak frame" to them. Randomly give them shit for something, or say no, or stick to your guns more.

Women respect STRENGTH.

messaged her saying "I like your butt, ima touch it". She got pissed and said 'You are not touching my ass'. I backed down because I was afraid that she'd get even more pissed/call the police/tell her friends and ostracize me and said 'Ima mire it then' (bad I know) and she said 'sure'.

Yeah, total frame loss. You can't expect a girl to agree to physical contact on social media. Just don't put yourself in that position in future. Best to avoid all social media, what are you a fucking beta online orbiter??

[–]Future_Alpha[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

I like to phrase my compliments as insults and my insults as compliments.

I understand this is the basis of push-pull. But how do I phrase my compliments as insults or insults as compliments? I struggle with that.

Complimenting is easy for me. The phrasing 'insults' part is hard (the push) and I don't quite understand it.

The "push" is almost essential, and it can be anything.

Yeah. That's the part I have trouble with. I sometimes get a push as coming off too harsh and the woman leaves. Also what is the difference between a push and a neg?

Not sure what you mean here. Later you say that woman respect strength and to stick to my guns. Can you elaborate more on this statement?

Gender flipping and frame-stealing

Never heard of these before. Could you show some examples/break down the technique?

Like I said in OP, I have problems getting girls attracted/getting dates. The problems usually consist of:

Girls saying they have a boyfriend (maybe the do, maybe they don't), it happens to0 often for my liking though.
I get a girls number and ask her on a date and she never replies (maybe the most common for me).
I ask a girl on a date and she makes up an excuse (oh I have soo much studying to do this week - I can't), then I see on instagram she posts a story of her going out with friends. (this one is pretty common too)
I ask a girl for her number and ask her to a date and she says 'I can give you my number and we can go together as friends'. I always want to say no, but don't.
Girls making it difficult to go on a date. For example with one girl, I asked her out and she started giving me excuses so I told her to text me when she figured out her schedule. She did and when I tried to set a date downtown she tried to set it closer to her house saying it was too far, though it was the same distance as me (I live like an hour away from downtown and have to take the train in, so there was no way I could have gone to a date near her, which is like twice the distance) so I told her to text me if she's ever around town.

This have been some of the replies I have been getting from the girls I asked out.

Check out his face, bodyfat, muscles too. Al factors.

Well he is almost thirty he has a decent face. Dunno what his bodyfat is, he says he is at 10% but he has random girls approaching him that have not met him before, so its unlikely they have seen him shirtless. But he is pretty jacked but short as fuck (shorter than most girls, like I said he is 5'4) and doesn't dress that well.

"Being reasonable" to you is "weak frame" to them

So what you are saying is not to give in/make it easy. Try to negotiate with them or outrightly say no?

For example, if a girl asks me for class notes/recordings say, "no problem, but only if you go out with me"? Or is that wrong?

Randomly give them shit for something Give them shit for what? I barely talk to these girls outside of class.

Best to avoid all social media, what are you a fucking beta online orbiter??

I use it to watch my powerlifting friends and trying to figure out how to up my picture game so that I get more matches on tinder.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

backhanded compliments / negs / etc - don't do it if it's not you. figure it out later, it's not your problem right now. a neg is a form of push.

re woman leaves: be more flirty with it, smile at the same time, get more investment from her first, be seen as more attractive.

Later you say that woman respect strength and to stick to my guns. Can you elaborate more on this statement?

Both are true. If she says "I can't go outside the campus on a first date".... it might be a shit test. But it might be true.

One solution is to compromise only if SHE compromises. "Ok, can meet you on campus but only if you wear red". That way she is exchanging rather than taking. And yes, it can be as frivolous as what she wears.

I included examples already.

Ok. VERY GOOD players that blog honestly turn about 3% of their approaches into sex. (Good looking loser, krauser, etc). This is your realistic lay ratio for an average guy who is dedicated to cold approaching..

Why so low? Simply because 50% are in a committed relationship, 50% aren't into you for whatever reason, 50% of the rest are not in the mood that day, or your approach didn't work, or whatever. That leaves you at 12.5% before you even start with logistics and whether you like HER enough to continue.

The replies you got are all "unavailabe/uninterested". If you asked out 10 girls, I'd suggest upping your number a LOT. You're only going to go on a first date with 1 in 10, and bang 1 in 3 of those IF YOU ARE GOOD. So.... how many are you cold approaching.. 10 or 100?

Ultimately you want to create more attraction in some way. No idea what you look like or how you act, but women really do fucking love sex - but they need both attraction, comfort and logistics to be handled for them.

he says he is at 10% but he has random girls approaching him that have not met him before, so its unlikely they have seen him shirtless

Oh, they know what he looks like shirtless. They are VERY well attuned to male physique, even under clothes. They are even better than you with the female body under clothes. 10% is pretty great. 30, decent face - great.

Vary it, see what you can get away with.

urgh no. Don't help her out with ANYTHING, what are you a beta?? And definitely not in exchange for her company.... you want to set the frame that you are paying for her? YOU are the prize, act like it. Seriously - you have much more to offer women than they will ever offer you, don't fall for their bluff that they are the prize because of sex.

Say "no" to this. Negotiate for stuff YOU want. eg the campus thing above.

We can't give you all the moves... you need to figure out how to make this stuff your own. Try to understand the basic concepts and get out there and do it.

[–]Future_Alpha[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Well she was saying that she just moved to a new town, she needs to get to the train otherwise it will take her to long to get home. I said that if we meet downtown, she can take a bus home (buses come often). But she was just being difficult.

"Ok, can meet you on campus but only if you wear red

Thanks for your reply. But what if she lies just because she can?

Seriously - you have much more to offer women than they will ever offer you

I am not 10% BF, I am not jacked, losing my hair (though not ugly) and have glasses. I am a college student. WTF do I have to offer to women?

re woman leaves: be more flirty with it, smile at the same time, get more investment from her first, be seen as more attractive

What do you mean by 'be seen as more attractive'? I am in the process of upgrading my wardrobe. I have been wearing hand-me downs that don't fit me well and I figured that if I change clothes and dress better (well fitting clothing, good color combinations, etc) then I will get more attraction from girls and maybe I'll be able to get more of them on dates.

Also, what do you mean by 'be more flirty'? I thought being flirty WAS push-pull?

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

. But what if she lies just because she can?

She can and she will. Doesn't matter, just treat it as true but don't give in for free.

Lose weight. Life more. Get a haircut suitable for hair loss (ie REAL FUCKING SHORT). Get contact lenses.

. I am a college student. WTF do I have to offer to women?

You have to offer the potential to be in the presence of a man. A man who thinks like a man, goes after what he wants, owns awesome genetics, works hard FOR HIMSELF and makes her feel LIKE A WOMAN.

Women like to pretend that they can take or leave men.... but this is a bluff and a lie. Get good at being a man, and you are the best thing in her life. Just being with you makes her feel amazing. The thought of losing you is terrifying. If this isn't you yet, get to the point where it is (but don't stop doing women meanwhile!)

re: more flirty: smile and show it's flirty rather than serious.

[–]Future_Alpha[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Future_Alpha[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Future_Alpha[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]stonepimpletilists points points points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Future_Alpha[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Title	Trying to understand Frame Control and Push-Pull. Please help
Author	Future_Alpha
Upvotes	4
Comments	12
Date	July 4, 2017 5:16 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askTRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/6l8cv3/trying_to_understand_frame_control_and_pushpull/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/trying-to-understand-frame-control-and-push-pull.93641 https://theredarchive.com/post/93641

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