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Karmaze Archive

View 3 posts and 821 comments by Karmaze on TheRedPill subreddit and various other subreddits related to The Red Pill community.
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14

The problem with the idea is that the "role model" is basically always someone who was a bit of a cad, more in the high masculinity vein, but learned to reign it in enough to get social acceptance. They really don't like the idea of the vulnerable kid who has low confidence/self-esteem and learned to get over that and put themselves first...or at least further up the line. Everything is designed around a specific social/cultural script, without care for anybody who falls outside of it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/07/26 05:32 PM
34

That kinda is the red pill, really. I've always advocated that if we're not going to deconstruct women in the same way we've deconstructed men (and I don't think we should) then the best we can do is an ethical Red Pill. The problem is that I dont think this can come effectively from a feminist background, or at least it's compatible with feminist theory, as the power-based approach that will kill your sense of self works against any sort of self-improvement. And let's be blunt. Equity is a fool…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/07/26 10:46 AM
1

Something kinda crystalized in my mind reading this post, how I feel about this stuff. Like I said, I'm very LGBTQ+ friendly. In fact, in a different world I might identify as queer myself. Fuck knows I'm not normal really. But at the end of the day it comes down to this. An ideology that's about power is going to breed a culture/community that's about power. And the latter is basically not something I'm about at all. Seeing so much hate directed at men all the time made me think "how does this …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/07/26 10:49 AM
24

I hate to say this because it sounds like I'm a bigot, but I do think there's an innate politics in queer community and culture that's very judgmental and deconstructive. Not all people as individuals, but I've seen it enough to understand that it's a thing. I don't have a problem with alt-lifestyles and sexuality, but often I find they have a problem with me. Largely for hiding my "power level" due to social anxiety.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/07/26 03:42 PM
20

I'll say it again, what we're looking at is essentially a mental health crisis caused by the "Masculinity Reform Project", the deconstruction of men and masculinity, that dramatically increased levels of social anxiety especially in more vulnerable men. When you make men responsible, not based on behavior, but based on their perceived status, that's very much a toxic brew. I volunteer in maintaining these third spaces, to be clear. But I have to say that it's a constant internal struggle. Is my …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/07/26 12:39 PM
5

By statusism, do you mean a "Keeping up with the Joneses" performance of wealth, as opposed to actually having wealth and being secure enough in it to not need to perform? That's a hole in one! Yeah. If I was actually to use something to describe it, it's exactly that. The whole "Keeping Up with the Jonses" thing. I think that's the thing, is that the Marxist concept of Materialism (and to be clear, I have criticisms of Marx. It's just the easiest term for this) like you said really is different…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/07/26 03:44 AM
18

Honestly, while I don't disagree, I think there's deeper issues with specifically American culture overall. One of the big aesthetic spectrums I believe in is that between statusism and for lack of a better term, what essentially is materialism, in the Marxist sense. America, I believe is on the far end of the spectrum towards statusism. That's the root of the problem, and it goes back decades. Statusism is not the friend of men, as it demands more of the Male Gender Role to operate.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/07/26 10:30 PM
23

The problem is less in what you're defining an entire society as and more in defining an entire society as one thing. That's why I say it's an epistemology problem as much as anything. I think nobody here would say that there's no patriarchy in our society. Some families, communities and cultures still have it prevelant. That's obvious. Only that there's a lot of places that are something else. It's not the only model that should be taken into consideration.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/07/26 06:51 PM
9

Back when I believed that people actually believed in things like Feminism and Patriarchy (the big thing is now I don't think people ACTUALLY believe this stuff) I understood that it meant that I didn't deserve anything I had. That it was all the result of systemic power. But I certainly limited myself. I dropped out of college, turned down promotions, socially isolated myself. It's about understanding and accepting that YOU only got YOUR job because of sexist hiring practices. It's about actual…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/26 10:48 PM
0

One thing that people miss, I think is that there were essentially two "sides" to the whole BLM thing. You had BLM itself, which was essentially social/cultural activism, but there was also Campaign Zero, which is actually much more institutional and structural. I think it's much easier to be exclusive with the former than the latter. Like wider use of bodycams (Even if that didn't pan out as much as cultural activists had hoped) is something that theoretically benefits EVERYBODY. Black, Asian, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/26 10:00 PM
9

Yet how much pressure does she put on you to hand in your resignation and make space for someone more deserving? That's the problem, is the desire for men who will enforce these ideas but not apply them to themselves. Edit: Just to add on to this WHY this is an issue. Not having skin in the game, keeping this stuff at a theoretical, externalized level pushes things towards radicalism and extremes. If there's no cost to the ideas that are being put forward, if you're not eating your own proverbia…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/26 08:33 PM
7

I look at these things through the "up down" spectrum, that is, up being authoritarian and hierarchal, and down being...not that. The left moving "up" over the last decade I think had the effect of convincing people that being "down" was no longer a politically or socially viable position. We're still out there and here... communities like this are heavily anti-authoritarian, but I find a lot of the time communicating these beliefs comes across as gibberish... people can't and won't understand i…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/26 07:14 PM
32

I think its more that "Patriarchy" is a gendered term, and where in so many other places we've tried to replace gendered language with non-gendered languge, the double standard actually serves to reinforce gendered norms and expectations. As someone who grew up learning to hate myself because of these ideas, I think the idea that you should say well I'm not to blame doesn't work, because at the end of the day, the theory does mean that there's no ethical way to really exist in the world. That yo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/26 06:54 PM
17

As an older person who has been in these spaces for a long time I'll straight up say it. If I look at Modern Progressivism (what I'd say you're talking about here) that's existed for the last decade and a half or so, so many of its roots are problematic. They literally are designed for bullying first and foremost. Even if people are not doing this on purpose or know about this, it doesn't change the fact that so many of these cultural/social ideas were made to justify bullying and abuse first an…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/26 04:23 PM
2

It's a good example. Truth is, that's so long ago I'd give it a pass if I thought there was any sort of real change from then, but I don't think there is.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/26 07:37 PM
8

There was also that shooter in Montreal last week that was apparently going after the guy who runs PornHub. But yeah, this is something that's way overblown. I think it's based around a desire to punch down on these issues. We don't want to acknowledge that the problem is largely people who are confident and secure and as such believe they are right and deserving, and assume consent, instead, we blame the vulnerable socially. People really do apply the just world fallicy to this stuff. Which is …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/26 12:55 PM
13

The problem is the epistemology behind those things, where they are treated as universal rather than situational. That's why it's so easy to victim blame in both those cases. There's also the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy which pretty much denies women's role in upholding the Male Gender Role.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/26 10:53 AM
7

It often ends up socially right. The origins and how it develops, however, are socially left. It's the end result of the "Masculinity Reform Project" as I call it, the effort to make men less masculine, and it's effects on men who are vulnerable in terms of confidence, self-esteem and/or are neurodivergent.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/26 02:12 AM
15

It's all about the up vs. down. Just talking economically, the economic "down" is anarchosocialism. Basically organizing into co-ops. And the economic "up" is some sort of centralized communism. Where this goes into these identity politics, I think, is that identitarian models freeze out class criticism. And the big thing about the latter, is that so much of it is instituting a class-esque model that funnels resources to the people in charge.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/26 02:09 AM
19

It's much more left-wing, at least at the roots of it. I think it's largely a "Dark Progressivism" more than anything else, the results of radical feminism crashing and burning on an individual level. Once it crashes and burns, then sometimes people move to the right. But the triggering influences are from the authoritarian, identitarian left. It's basically caused by the deconstruction of men and masculinity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/07/26 09:58 PM
5

There's no visible effort to reign in the Male Gender Role. That's the issue. And no, making it harder for men to fulfill does not count as reigning it in.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/07/26 07:20 PM
6

Unhealthily low levels of confidence/assertiveness. By the way, your response makes me think of how my mom thinks I need to be told to respect women and not let myself be accused of rape but ignores my brother who clearly has a bad attitude toward women and sex. Yup. Like to view things this way is just how our society is wired. And basically nothing is trying to undo that...my argument is that Feminist Theory is actually making this worse. We judge behavior through the lens of status rather in …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/07/26 04:42 PM
15

One of the things that's missed is that not all men are starting at the same point with this stuff. It's one thing to tell a guy who is confident and assertive this, but doing so for someone who is already low in these things can and will push them towards very unhealthy levels.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/07/26 01:04 PM
11

In my case, I did not resist because I was intimidated by her social power, not her physical power. So many of the problems revolve around the denial of and protection of (these are the same thing really) social power in our society.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 08:55 PM
9

These are people who never showed any hint of this sort of behavior and were totally reasonable people prior to 2016. And not restricted to one social group/space. All of them. Just to add on to this. I'm older, I've been around politics, both online and offline for a few decades now. This sort of identitarian Critical Feminism that's taken over really used to be very much a fringe thing. It's only the last decade or so where it's really blown up. I really do mean it when I say I think it's basi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 08:53 PM
12

I just think Feminist Theory itself exists in an epistemological framework, that goes from meh to outright harmful. To be clear, the big important part of what I'm saying is that I do not believe that Feminist Theory can address the issues that women face today, let alone men. The problem is that it's not an ideology, a framework that's meant to be internalized/actualized. Speaking as someone who grew up doing exactly that. Looking at yourself through the lens of power that's presented is super …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 07:40 PM
-1

What helped me is the idea that next to nobody actually believes this stuff. You should treat it as trolling, more or less. An expression of faith and power that ultimately isn't applied to the real world. It has less to do with attacking men than it does buoying up abuses of social and network power and privilege.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 04:11 PM
12

Yup it's disgusting. That this shit doesn't get shut down hard is one of the things that pushes people towards a reactionary position of their own. That convinces them that a liberal egalitarianism isnt a viable option.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 04:01 PM
5

I wouldn't necessarily put it that harshly. What I would say is that it's the belief that society is being dishonest/overly optimistic in terms of its messaging about how much of the Male Gender Role has gone away/fundamentally changed. If you go back to the roots, with the PUA stuff, much of it was simply framing yourself as more aggressively masculine and in control. I agree that their prescriptions are dogshit...at least talking about the modern wave of Red Pill, but seriously. There's no goo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 04:08 AM
4

The new wave of Red Pill stuff? Absolutely. It's actually a direct reaction to that Pink Pill, actually. The whole ideology is based around debates/arguments/fights with Pink Pill women. Look at what those podcasts that started it were, and how they got/maintained their popularity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/26 12:14 AM
10

So, I like to separate RP/Manosphere stuff just like we do Feminist stuff. And what I would say in a lot of ways, yes. I actually do think if we're talking about the current wave of the RP/Manosphere stuff that has people all upset? Absolutely. This is super unpopular, but I'd argue that the formation of that stuff is basically a reaction to Pink Pill/Female Dating Strategy stuff. And you might say that stuff isn't Feminist, but I'd certainly argue that much of that stuff certainly has strong li…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/06/26 10:05 PM
13

I think the actual question is can you be feminist...in the steelman version of the term...while also rejecting feminist theory that by and large is overly reductive and certainly very much out of date at this point? This...isn't a question for us. To be honest. This by and large is a question for feminists who hold on to those concepts and theories. Will they actually allow people who, again by the steelman, agree with the goals but disagree with the details a respected seat at the table? As it…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/26 09:10 PM
16

I've always described political inceldom as a sort of "Dark Progressivism" rather than anything reactionary. To be clear, Im using the political qualification to separate those with this maladaptive masculinity who want to change society to fit it vs the people who don't and just blame themselves. What they're looking for isnt reactionary really. Doesn't make it right or good. But in a lot of ways it would be some sort of 'Progress'. Ultimately, at the end of the day it's nothing more than radic…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/26 03:17 PM
2

How much of a problem is it? This isn't to defend that stuff, to be clear, I reject the epistemology from a whole bunch of different angles. But I will say this. Snap your finger, get rid of all that content, what's the result? I'm not sure we're automatically in a better spot. Because the problem is much more than just the manosphere. The promotion of an expanded, exploitative new Male Gender Role is every bit the problem as well. Toxic Shame stemming from Double Standards given to men and wome…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/26 02:51 AM
4

The problem is that not all men need "liberation" from masculinity on an internal level. From the external social and cultural pressures? Sure. That's a different story, but that's also not at ALL on the table. From reading this article, this sounds like the sort of thing that's good for "sanding the edges off the proverbial dudebro". Which is OK for the people involved, I think. The problem is what's going to happen when you get someone who actually needs help moving in the other direction.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/26 02:47 AM
1

I actually have a LOT of issues about this, but it all revolves around one thing. Not all of us are wired to think that way, and I think that's the core problem. I'm going to focus in on one core concept. That is, the shaming of "insecurity". That for some reason, it's linked to all the assholes and the horrible people. But we never stop to think...if these concepts of Systemic Power are true, men SHOULD be more insecure. We should be more self-doubting, more cautious, more hesitant, more guarde…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/26 02:40 AM
8

The reality is that mentality was always "down vs up" not left vs. right. It's just for the longest time, generally speaking most people on the left were on the down side of things, and that changed especially over the last decade and a half.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/06/26 10:21 PM
3

While I certainly agree with the toxic shame elements...calling out misogyny that's rather tame as compared to the normalized misandry that hits men is tough and probably unhealthy...there's something else to it as well. I often have negative social power in these situations. That is, me calling this behavior out is going to make the person doing it more, not less likely to engage in that behavior because they don't want to be like me. That's the reality of the situation. You probably shouldn't …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/06/26 11:10 PM
12

I agree with what's being said here, but let me add one thing. There's something messed up with the whole thing with men being "coddled" in that at end of the day, it's just reinforcing the Male Gender Role.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/06/26 08:52 PM
28

I wouldn't say it's anger. I think it's more inconvenient emotions period. As someone who grew up and still deals with a lot of shame and guilt for being male, I think in general there's a lot of stigma surrounding talking about it and having these feelings accepted. Anger, like all other emotions is fine if it's productive and validating. That's the real answer. We're not allowed to have non-productive, non-validating emotions.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/06/26 05:56 AM
6

The way I see modern Progressive culture is essentially they want a world that maximizes the impact and importance of social power. That's it. Everything else pushes towards that end.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/06/26 03:33 AM
10

The reality is that these ideas are super harmful to internalize and actualize, so you either get people who are socially and emotionally broken, or people who are very exploitative, egotistical and believe they are better than rules and norms.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/06/26 12:54 PM
18

Like yeah that's the thing. I think the power-based identitarian epistemology is wrong. I think it doesn't reflect reality, and I think it's super harmful to internalize/actualize. I also think it can't fix the issues women face either.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/06/26 12:52 PM
39

I'll say it again. The idea of men's rights at its core is a "south of center", anti-authoritarian project. Putting it into strict left vs right terms isn't useful.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/06/26 12:32 PM
9

One thing I find interesting, being involved back then was how many people switched so fast from decrying those politics as being divisive and a distraction to embracing them fully. People don't believe me, but those ideas at one point were fringe and controversial to say the least outside of their academic environments. And I still have the same opinion. It all came about because algo driven social media acts in the same way for the left as the church does for the right, as in becoming the sorc…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/26 04:03 PM
15

At least for me, I think this is true based on my experience....and I don't think it's just boys. Way back when I was in HS there was obvious grading bias in terms of clique and socioeconomic class. I'm not at all saying that bias against boys isn't a thing today...given the climate I'd be surprised if it's not. But I do think it's part of a larger issue of accepting that this bias does exist in the first place. But that goes back to my core belief...the reason why this identitarian, power based…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/26 03:41 PM
7

Like I said, I can believe that it happened WAY more in say the pre-90's. I don't know from first hand experience. Wasn't of age back then. But growing up? Other than the 2-3 guys in HS that did it (and were VERY popular with the girls. And also were the biggest source of male "Toxic Masculinity" in my life and I'd probably be happier if I didn't fight them on it but that's neither here nor there), I know maybe...3 men my whole adult life who engaged in that? And a LOT more women. The controvers…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/26 03:09 AM
4

When I get in arguments with people over this, one thing that becomes clear is that most people who are throwing out the term "objectification" simply have no fucking idea the breadth of what it means. I usually just point out that they obviously haven't read their Nussbaum and move on. One of the things that's clear to me, and I think this is intended, is that objectification theory was meant to be as much of a criticism of feminist epistemology as anything else. And the reason I say that, is t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/26 02:41 AM
13

One interesting thing, I think, as someone in my 40's, is that there was a period of time where there was like basically very little "male gaze" physical content (like magazines) aimed at boys and men outside of going right to porn. The stuff existed for girls, but not for boys. Then eventually Maxim came out and changed everything. And that's really in US and Canada, giving my experience. And of course, that stuff was broadly criticized/condemned/demonized. One of my hot takes that will get peo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/26 02:35 AM
5

Let's say you're right and that as a man, I'm an awful person and the world would be a better place without me. The biggest block is the social stigma against actually internalizing/actualizing these ideas. I don't think people actually believe this stuff. It's just weaponized against the other, the outgroup. My argument is that this puts us in a very toxic donut hole of sorts. That we end up creating a lot of inequality and insecurity among men, between those who, frankly, get the super secret …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/06/26 01:16 PM
0

See, you're thinking just social discrimination. I'm thinking denial of access to infrastructure, jobs, etc. Truth is that I don't expect to survive the revolution to begin with. Maybe not the first against the wall, but I'm pretty sure I'll end up there eventually.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/06/26 12:54 PM
3

To be clear, I always vote left. But from a self-interest point of view, I'm not sure being seen as cannon fodder is a worse thing than being seen as a problem. The way I've always looked at it, being short and neirodivergant as well as male, I'm not equipped for the social status games required to overcome being seen as a problem, where as with the right, I can overcome that by making myself productive and useful. Also note that I'm not American. I think America has always been a uniquely fucke…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/06/26 12:06 PM
8

Also, the ability to "let it fly" and if it applies or not are two completely unrelated things.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/05/26 05:52 PM
43

In reality we just shouldn't be listening to nepobabies in general. Their experience is going to be so far removed from reality it's untrustworthy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/26 07:32 PM
9

Just to be clear, it's less the ideas themselves and more that I watched this modern Progressive culture that rose up over the last decade or so heavily use ostracization and isolation as political weapons and I'm not comfortable or feel safe around it at all. And all those ideas are just weaponized against the other, I think. Again, something that makes me feel very unsafe.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/26 02:33 PM
11

Everything from things like toxic masculinity and patriarchy to things like "grifter" and "Incel"
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/26 01:48 PM
17

Ideally you're right, but I do think how other people define you does play a role in terms of if you're included or not, and that's the issue. It's actually why I'm very uncomfortable around Progressive language/culture, as I fear that it'll define me in a way that excludes me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/26 01:29 PM
10

Well that's why you shouldn't use terms like patriarchy because it serves to reinforce stereotypes and expectations surrounding men. It doesn't do much at all to actually break them down or address them. Eventually I'm going to write an article on Positive vs Normative change, and why the need to take credit for change is so harmful. Why, in this case the assumption that men are all these authoritarian monsters that need correction actually serves to reinforce norms and expectations.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/26 02:38 PM
11

I don't actually think Hasan is an example of that. While I certainly think there's people who become more authoritarian as they believe that non-authoritarianism is non-viable, I think Hasan is forged out of class privilege that makes people that way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/26 12:22 PM
13

Pretty much everything you said. I watched the formation of the "Modern Progressive Culture" as I call it, and it was all based around gaining moral license in some way or fashion. I am very much small-p progressive, but I have something akin to a digust or even a fear of that culture. I want nothing to do with it. I don't like or feel comfortable around the social games. And on the policing....here's my experience, and people are not going to like it. It's relatively easy to keep out the weird …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/04/26 02:34 PM
26

Yeah, industrial is a weird word to use. What I would say is that it's the Progressive Managerial Complex, that is, using oppressor/oppressed identitarian concepts to cover up various forms of classism and statusism and to gain social and political power. These models are harmful to internalize/actualize, so it becomes all about giving the "right" people power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/04/26 12:26 PM
3

It's a world that devalues productivity and work and rewards status and social power. That's what they want.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/04/26 02:32 PM
13

I think the thing is that it's realistically impossible to prevent this to a point that it will never happen, that the costs involved to our freedom would be so massive that I think it's unthinkable, and it's important to set this as a realistic limitation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/04/26 03:35 PM
5

My perspective is pretty straight forward, these ideas come out of academia to protect the power and status that they are essentially selling. And yeah, it's just people acting according to incentives, not anything organized.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/26 04:28 PM
2

To be clear, I think it's a mental health crisis more than anything and there's a lot that goes into it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/26 09:39 PM
10

I don't think it's possible, as I think men's rights and issues are at odds with Progressivism. I think that Progressivism is a form of relative left thought (I think it's actually further to the right than we realize tho) that exists to justify maintaining social and status hierarchies in our society. That's why it holds on so hard to oppressor/oppressed dichotomies based on identity, because it freezes out the role that class and status plays. Making a distinction to the different experiences …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/26 10:27 AM
1

My argument is that it's a mental health crisis as much as anything, and the dehumanizing double standards aimed at men that are seen as acceptable play a significant role in this. We're constantly bombarded with messages that at best we don't matter. That's something that takes a toll.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/04/26 06:50 PM
5

I've known too many men who were expected to give up their social circle when they got into a relationship and join hers.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/04/26 06:45 PM
9

To be clear, we're not talking about how education was changed per se. We're actually just talking straight up misandry/status bias here. Like I've seen studies that have claimed that the difference in marking dramatically outstrips differences in knowledge, when determined through some sort of anonymity. And then there's the question in terms of how this affects confidence levels which is something that snowballs. As someone who is quite older, I personally witnessed (and felt) a lot of both ge…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/26 03:30 PM
1

So in this case, the idea of it (coming from John McWhortor, who I think really pushed this idea), is that we're just going to disagree on the prior on if power is monodirectional or bidirectional. (The latter isn't that it's 50/50...just not 100/0) Nothing productive is going to come from constantly fighting about this, so it's important to set it aside and just focus on other things. There's a sort of another part of it...which is a recognition that people don't actually have a solid belief in…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/26 05:15 PM
20

It's not just misandry, although that's a part of it for sure. It's the overall idea that there should be different rules for different people, that the only thing that matters is power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/26 10:06 PM
13

The need to take credit for everything is a very real problem in that culture, and always has been.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/26 05:38 PM
34

Yup. It's the toxic shame generation. Doing X is only bad because it's a man doing it. The systemic power based approach is so counter-productive. And the worst part is how people will just not own it. Even at an academic, theoretical level, from a feminist lems, I think it's pretty easy to say, talk about the preference for taller men as an expression of traditional gender norms for men. But...that's not a thing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/26 12:58 PM
2

Nah, you miss what I'm saying. Being a neurodivergent male, especially as a short one, I don't think there's a place for people like me in an authoritarian Progressive world. Pushing people like me out has always been a big thing in terms of making a community more "inclusive".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/03/26 09:23 PM
2

it is more effective to focus on things that will lead to the betterment of the overall community. And when people decide the betterment of the overall community is removing people like myself?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/03/26 07:53 PM
3

Maybe I misread it? I feel differently reading it again. I think the part about testosterone kinda set me the wrong way. As well as I think, not addressing the male disposability question directly. That said, I do think the author is coming from an oppressor/oppressed gender dichotomy framework, even if not stated directly. In any case, I'm not sure about relating these two things. This isn't a defense of routing tactics (which is what we're talking about here) but I don't see it linked to socia…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/26 10:01 PM
6

I literally use the term "Modern Progressive Culture" to describe a sub-culture/political aesthetic that's essentially based around social bullying. Economically, I think it can run the gamut from far left to even centrist, but the more important part of it is justifying authoritarian and bullying social structures.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/26 05:43 PM
11

That's almost a good article, but boy do I find the identitarian language on the subject frustrating. The author is right, in that most bullying stems from enforcement of social norms. But to make about gender and not status seems like malpractice to me. Feels to me to be one of those things where the authors main objection is that they are not the one with the power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/26 04:30 PM
3

I actually don't think more communal structures are opposed to Individualism, or at least in the way I'm thinking about it. It's the recognition that people have very much different innate natures, socializations, experiences, etc. and as such should be treated as individuals. My criticism of academia stems from the idea that their business model, to a degree, is essentially selling class status. More so in the past than today, to be clear, but the effects remain.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/03/26 01:56 PM
9

Illiberal feminism/progressivism uses men as a scapegoat to protect social hierarchy to push responsibility and accountability onto the outgroup, the other. It also uses anti-capitalist rhetoric for much the same purpose. That's my take at least..
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/03/26 01:45 PM
3

As someone who actively advocates for what people call "matriarchy" I.E a less hierarchal society, people who actually want that tend to be critical of terms like patriarchy, largely because fighting hierarchy requires a more individualistic position to begin with. And yeah, the academic roots of these concepts are problematic as academica still plays a crucial role in hierarchy formation in our society.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/03/26 12:10 PM
6

I think it's less of a flaw of a socialist system and more "the devil is in the details" thing but what I think should be a question is how do you prevent the managerial class from essentially just absorbing the power and corruption of the capital class. For me it's an order of preferences. Like ideally I want some sort of anarcho-socialist worker run economy. But my preferences from there go to the center, maybe even the right before they go up. Democratic Socialism, then some sort of improved …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/03/26 09:20 PM
2

This isn't a man vs woman thing. It's actually more of a people who value freedom vs. people who value status thing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/26 12:45 AM
3

I think putting such an extreme definition reinforces stereotypes that men are that way. That the "norm" is that level of frankly, evil.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/26 01:02 PM
2

The problem is that the message being sent isn't self-love it's toxic shame. The double standards that rely on systemic assumptions of power and historical patterns are the dehumanizing thing that sends that message. It is, this is why you're a less worthwhile and deserving person. The men I know who are able to successfully "integrate" these ideas, I'll be honest, are some of the most arrogant, red flaggish men I know, and that's the thing...it works when you can link these ideas to social stat…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/26 12:59 PM
4

Are women at fault? No, I blame algo-driven social media and the rise of statusism and how society let identitarian politics cover up for that. My concern is the future will be a more oppressive status based society as well. Heavily restrictive for people of lower status.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/26 10:12 AM
5

The thing about that definition of patriarchy is that it's kinda self-reinforcing. That is, the idea itself actually is an example of what it's describing. It's the same thing with how Toxic Masculinity was popularly used, where most of the time it relies on male stoicism and disposability.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/26 09:22 PM
22

I'll say it again. You can nuke all the 5th wave Red Pill stuff off the Internet and it'll just reform because you still have a lot of creators, playing to a female audience, sending out essentially the same message. And people will see this misogyny as reciprocity. The best thing you can do is acknowledge the Pink Pill/FDS stuff demanding an expanded and exploitative Male Gender Role as reactionary. If this stuff got mainstream criticism as well, I think that 5th Wave Red Pill stuff would be le…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/26 02:40 PM
4

I think that an honest, good faith person would have to look around at the current state of the discourse, see all the punching down in terms of class and status and have to conclude that something went horribly wrong somewhere.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/26 12:32 PM
9

The more time I spend on this subreddit, the more I become convinced of patriarchy as a model and the more I become convinced that most feminists misunderstand it. A lot of them reinforcing patriarchy even. Of course that makes me concerned: if most feminists don’t understand patriarchy, how must I rely on them to decide what is acceptable “collateral damage”? Yeah pretty much. I'm going to assume by what you said, you're referring to the role that the Male Gender Role plays in the current syste…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/26 01:18 AM
4

Yeah, I'd say that's correct. When acknowledging the exceptions, the nuances, where your frameworks breakdown is seen as ceding power, which I think often is how this is portrayed....virtually always even....I think these things are just going to happen. There's no way it's going to remain abstract.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/26 12:50 AM
8

It’s a human tendency. And I think feminists like hooks are more an exception here, sticking to the descriptive and not moralising anyone as she sees everyone an actor in patriarchy: even feminists themselves. I think that's probably a big part of the problem here. Feminism, by and large doesn't see itself as a part of the socialization process, and as such, I don't think there's any discussion about how that impacts people. I big part of that, again, I'm very critical of the academic nature of …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/26 12:27 AM
13

The concern is people who are actually too deep in terms of empathy and humility, I think. There's a possibility of having too much of those things.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/26 10:07 PM
18

So the question is...how do we change the communications? How do we make it clear that these ideas are rough generalizations that do not apply to individuals? Because I still don't see any guardrails against that, right? It's a sort of "wink wink nod nod" thing. Truth is, I think people want the other, the outgroup to internalize these ideas in a moralistic way, but not the people they care about. That's what I honestly think. So it largely becomes essentially a social power game more or less. T…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/26 10:06 PM
29

Years ago on another forum, there was a sort of "Book Club" series on A Will to Change. And generally speaking the reaction was pretty uninform among egalitarians. There was a real conflict between her usage of standard Feminist models, and a lot of the more pragmatic stuff she was putting forward. And to me, that comes down to...what does "love" mean in this case. As someone who grew up learning to hate myself for being male, because of an understanding of these models and applying them to myse…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/26 08:48 PM
5

I don't think it's the left. I think it's a north of center vs south of center thing. I've seen plenty of leftists who can't get past something like "die capitalist pig". I think the difference is north of center people, the authoritarians, are relying on social power to get their way, while south of center people are interested in the ideas and nuances.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/26 02:39 PM
7

(I much prefer the fuck you option, combined with the "Time Capsule" scene. I think that would have been a great launching point for the game moving forward) I think what you're talking about, really, is the political binary and kayfabe politics. The idea that you HAVE to choose essentially side A or side B. No other options are recognized. My argument is that electorally, this has been kind of disastrous for the left. Personally, the way I look at it is that it's at least a 2-axis chart. That t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/03/26 09:25 PM
30

I'd also say we need to get past the idea that men being insecure is bad, in a world that says that we need to constantly challenge what we have and who we are.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/26 07:20 PM
1

Yeah pretty much. And it's not just the world. The racism of say, San Francisco is just going to be different than the racism in the deep south.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/26 09:43 AM
2

They reduce it into something you can grade.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/26 03:56 AM
5

So yes, but this is where I annoy people as I say for that, use the term systematic or institutional rather than systemic.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/26 03:41 AM
4

I don't think that's wrong....but I also don't think in practice that's how it works. Let me explain what I meant in more detail, because it really describes WHY it doesn't work. Let me take a maximum good faith, steel-man approach with my explanation. To put it simply, the people close to us, we see the detail, the nuances, the differences. The people further away, we don't see those things. So the people close to us don't get viewed through the lens and assumptions that come with these systems…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/26 03:15 AM
5

Ultimately at the end of the day, it just makes everything weaponized, something to be used against the outgroup, the other.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/26 02:27 AM
-5

So I'll just give a bit of a counterargument around the fringes. I don't think "systemic" exists. It's a scale that's pretty much impossible, and actually serves as a sort of thought-terminating cliche. I don't think your argument is wrong, per se, misandry is something broad in our society....but I wouldn't call it "systemic". The world isn't one system. the world is a multitude of systems. It's just a better, healthier way of looking at things.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/26 11:24 PM
7

The reality is it's about who has social power and who doesn't.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/26 08:29 PM
7

I think the question is how can we promote healthy epistemologies and push back against unhealthy ones. How to end the motte and bailey between the systemic and the individual, and actually focus on the latter, on full intersectionality that's actually just egalitarianism, rather than the partial version that we commonly see today.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/26 08:28 PM
7

I strongly believe if those identitarian critical concepts were forced to be universal, people would drop them fast. If they had to look at themselves and the people they care about through that lens of power they apply to the rest of us, they wouldn't last a week.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/26 08:25 PM
6

Myself, my own view is that it's wrapped around the idea of us not seeing the managerial class and its practices as a significant source of oppression in our society. Or, as I don't like the term, let's say it's interests and experiences are at odds with the working class.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/26 08:23 PM
9

I look at the people who promote those ideas, and I always see the same thing. Sanding the edges off dude bros. The history I know of people who promote that stuff is often....not good. So blaming essentially men as a class covers up being accountable for ones own behavior.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/03/26 04:45 PM
13

To think a single book made twenty years ago or heck Betty Friedmans 1959 work Can explain for an entire gender what masculinity is or COULD BE in 2026 feels laughable Yeah, that's the issue. Hidebound is the term I use, as in, the unwillingness to change and update your beliefs. One of the things that really hit me hard was reading a piece in The Guardian...hardly a reactionary paper,...talking about "Must Read Feminist Books". And you had a kinda modernish bio by Roxanne Gay, and you had Gende…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/03/26 02:11 AM
14

So, there's biological essentialism, which means that men are generally alike and have similar characteristics for biological reasons, sociological essentialism means that men are generally alike and have similar characteristics because that's how socialization is. It's basically the idea that everybody has the same socialization, depending on if you're male or female.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/03/26 12:28 AM
11

It could, but it probably won't be. It's not an issue that the system has problems, I think it's more that it's an issue that the system's problems aren't allowed to be identified and critiqued. So for example, the sociological essentialism that's a core part in "locking in" these ideas in an unhealthy way probably won't get addressed anytime soon.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/03/26 08:55 PM
24

Yeah, that's a very real problem. It's why I've always seen how "Toxic Masculinity" is used as itself, an example of Toxic Masculinity. In that, the demand that men act against social incentives is something both self-destructive and requires a lot of stoicism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/03/26 08:09 PM
1

but it sounds like your frustration is really about the presentation, not the concepts themselves. My frustration is the double speak and how it builds hierarchy and authoritarianism in our culture. That people will apply different rules/standards/norms to themselves and the people they care about to those further away from them, and use these concepts to justify that. That the end result is a whole lot of "punching down" in terms of other facets of power, privilege and bias. Like that's the thi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/26 07:27 PM
1

Structural analysis doesn’t mean “everything you have is stolen” or that individual experiences don’t matter; that’s shame logic, not structural logic Not all structural analysis is the same. The problem isn't the concept in and of itself, the issue is the nature of the structural analysis that they're doing. The devil is in the proverbial details...and I guess more importantly, the epistemology. Recognizing patterns of power doesn’t negate male victims or mean women never enforce harmful gender…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/26 06:46 PM
1

The problem is that for a lot of us, that reflection and action does lead us to self-erasure. Like, if these concepts are true, then everything you have, your job, your relationships, etc. it's all basically just stolen. You don't know if you deserve any of it. Which is why I say it becomes such a toxic confidence test, and actually ends up pushing people to unhealthy extremes on both sides, and away from a healthy middle. Understanding and accepting that normal things for actual people are thin…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/26 06:13 PM
1

Structural analysis isn’t the same thing as moral condemnation Frankly, it needs to be for it to work. Or at least with this concept of identitarian, monodirectional systemic power. Essentially what it's asking is how to convince men to change in a way in a world that will then be hostile to that change. How do you convince men to actually filter their own behavior through this lens in a truly self-critical way. It's about using toxic shame to get people, in the outgroup, to "turn off" their con…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/26 05:54 PM
6

I'll be honest, I'm at the point where I think either we recognize the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy as the hateful bigotry it is, or we accept that these are shaming ideas and adjust accordingly. Shit or get off the proverbial pot. Because I think the harm we're doing by taking the middle path is reaching a critical mass, to be honest.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/26 02:34 AM
3

I think the message is that the lives of other people are infinitely more important than mine. At least that's how it comes across. Is it healthy? No But it does change how people behave and act outside of the political realm. At least it's fundamentally changed the way I've behaved and acted. What matters is what you do not how you are perceived This is the core problem with the power-based approach. Because it doesn't matter what you do. Or at least it matters a lot less. What matters is the e…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/26 02:07 AM
2

Why should individuals have expectations given to them by a political model? Who has the right to give you expectations? And why not reject them? I think some people have this feeling that everything operates on this theoretical/political level. But I don't think that's the case. Not everybody thinks that way. I'm personally not wired to think that way. So if you tell me that bias always goes in a certain direction, I'm actually going to apply that to my own life and experiences, because I don't…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/26 02:01 AM
5

When you say nuance, what sort of nuance do you want more acknowledged and for whom? Like, just that power is fluid. "Privilege" isn't universal. Talk about the exceptions. Couch your ideas, acknowledge the limitations. To be fair a lot of modern day feminism embraces postmodern logics so it should fit fine with their being no universal truths Should. But it's not. At the end of the day, coming from academia, it's in a system that highly incentivizes universal truths. That's just kinda the way i…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/26 01:12 AM
6

Yup. I still hate myself and assume people are going to see me as the creep. Doesn't help when a lot of family/friends still believe in these models. Yay.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/02/26 11:46 PM
5

everyone whether they admit it or not is privileged in some way or another I agree, but that is not AT ALL the message being sent. There's no nuance, no detail in the way these ideas are being framed and broadcast. They're presented as Knowledge. Just the universal truth. Like, I'm not opposed to a more critical-based approach to these things. The problem is the scale, the assumptions. That's where it gets toxic and harmful. Like, just at a simple base level...why is it hard to believe that ther…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/02/26 11:39 PM
25

Please note, I'm not saying this is morally right or desirable. Ultimately, I think the Red Pill is, is an opinion on the way the world is. More specifically, that the Male Gender Role hasn't gone away, and it's unlikely to in the near future. As such, I think the perspective is that right wing politics gets you two things, first, is the a better economic climate to be able to meet the male gender role, but also, reciprocity for the male gender role itself. The problem is we need an alternative …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/02/26 02:24 PM
-2

One of my personal hot takes is that the focus on billionaires is one of those distractions as well. We see the same exploitation of the working class in the non-profit and public sectors as well. The problem is actually the managerial class seeing the working class as disposable and interchangable, largely coming out of academia.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/02/26 01:10 PM
7

Even if she said that, it's not necessarily essentialist, because, like I said, men being perverts could be rationalized as coming from social conditioning. I'd argue this is a distinction without an actual difference. That is, I think it's super important to not only be aware of biological essentialism, but sociological essentialism as something that's not really any better. So the idea that all men are socialized in a certain way is just as bad as saying that all men are biologically a certain…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/02/26 09:26 PM
9

There's actually a reason why I eventually expect the TERFs will win out. To be clear, I'm not happy about that, but it's obvious to me that the trans-affirming feminists have a bad argument, for the reason that they're keeping the misandry around.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/02/26 09:22 PM
15

Change is going to be very difficult as long as we don't recognize the deconstruction of men and masculinity as a severe problem. Like, people talk about therapy...but in the end that's just putting a bandage over an infected wound. It's not like the external damage is stopping. You're not learning things to actually move away from it. (And often I'd argue it's the opposite, making people more vulnerable to that type of message) I've said, and I still think that Toxic Shame is the problem here. …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/02/26 06:14 PM
29

I personally think it's a mental health crisis stemming from telling men who don't have much to give up socially to give up that unearned privilege. That gender politics has created an intense social anxiety, especially in vulnerable men like the neurodivergent.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/02/26 02:12 PM
2

Yeah, that's my take as well. In general, I think systems should be identity neutral, and that could be considered "rights" but the bulk of the issue is social and cultural
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/26 08:06 PM
7

While I agreed with these people that certain issues existed, their solutions to the problems and their explanation for why many of them happened sickened me. Yeah. Ultimately it's all the same idea. The Male Gender Role hasn't gone away, and there really isn't any sort of mainstream movement/effort to push back against it. The only question is how do we react to it. I'm not one to say that people should entirely reject the Male Gender Role...because first, that's not going to happen, and second…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/26 09:15 PM
11

And while promoting ideas that, by all rights, should make people insecure.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/02/26 07:41 PM
11

The way I put it is that deconstruction has no limits. It's just a question of who has the power to avoid that lens and who doesn't. It's the same thing with intent. Who has the power to have their intent count and who doesn't. And to be clear, I don't think it's based on identity. At all. It's tribalism and social status.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/26 06:01 PM
30

Yeah I was waiting for that myself. And the answer is essentially "touch grass". But I'm not actually convinced that's a good solution. I'm older, and I grew up with a lot of these messages, and they exist even offline, to some degree. If you're learning in school that your masculinity is bad, and you're already a kid who is more vulnerable to those messages, that's going to fuck you up, no online needed. So I'll give my solution set, as someone that..well...but for the grace of god go I. My wif…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/26 12:01 AM
16

I feel like there's an elephant in the room, talking about society at large that people don't want to talk about. What if the amount of SA and abuse from women to men is rising or has even spiked? Has the cultural deconstruction of men and masculinity made men into acceptable targets?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/26 02:40 PM
8

Yup. Tell me what term to use to describe this critical, mono directional concept of power dynamics and I'll use that when criticizing it. And it's not a strawman. Even if people claim to not believe in those models, I still think it's important to point out when ideas or language are reliant on them. Because there's a lot.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/02/26 02:55 PM
7

So I've always said the problem is one of scope and scale. When you're talking about "some patriarchies" even though I disagree with the term, I can agree with the idea that we are talking about a diverse array of experiences. Both in terms of different cultures and communities, but also in terms of how different individuals interact with these ideas and socializations. Just to put my issues with "MensLib" here, I think it's made for hubristic, arrogant people who think they're above rules and n…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/26 02:37 PM
12

Eh, I actually disagree. I think it's the structure. They want to study human society like it's a static system like physics or math....but it's not. It's chaotic and diverse and ever changing. To be clear, I include economics in this as well.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/01/26 01:54 PM
10

Yeah, not directly. But, I do think the modern Progressive cultures mentality of different rules for different people (which ultimately is what I think maintained that conflict) would result in more SA and abuse.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/26 07:59 PM
11

To be clear, this isn't me defending the GG side, this is more me saying that the Progressive side was/is every bit just as bad. The idea that there's often no good guys in social media activism escapes people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/26 07:50 PM
21

Just in general it's the presentation of men as a class as violent, controlling, abusive, etc. And remember, the whole "gamergate is evil" thing comes to defend a culture of SA and abuse, not to mention a whole bunch of anti-neurodivergance. Might be a bit personal for me as Progressives went after my wife about the whole thing. Just to be clear, I generally think all social media activism is pretty ugly, but people are far from objective or rational on this stuff.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/26 06:43 PM
23

Way back in the day, one of the egalitarian blogs I followed got hands on her thesis. It was straight up misandric bigotry. It's no surprise then she tried to make a career around offensive deconstructions of men and masculinity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/26 06:16 PM
9

I think a lot of people have a crush on Andrew Tate and wish he was "civilized" but that's neither here nor there. Truth is that there's certainly more influential content creators to go after if you want to do that. But nope, everyone is laser focused on this guy. I think a lot of people would respond that he's a sex trafficker, and yeah, he is, but I think they have zero idea of what that actually entails. Not that I'm defending the behavior, but my understanding is that in the West it's more …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/26 06:14 PM
7

Sorry, but the actual problem is that we're not using enough current data, not that we need to go older.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/26 03:52 PM
1

Kinda? But I mean, these are people who don't see god as a "system" but as an actual being/entity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/26 01:49 AM
2

Well, it's not that right-wing arguments magically become left. It's that they're fundamentally authoritarian/identitarian arguments. So they're going to look roughly the same no matter where on the left to right political spectrum you are. There's just a massive difference between left anarchist and left authoritarian. It's just that because for a while, left authoritarian was verboten, we see "left" as left anarchist and "right" as right authoritarian. But that's far from the complete picture.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/26 01:47 AM
2

So Calvinism is a form of Christianity that believes that because god is omniscient, it's already decided if you're going to heaven or hell. Neocalvinism is basically applying that to economics as well. That basically god is dictating who is rich and who is poor, and all of that is god's will. Was big in MLM circles, especially Amway. Eventually became the Prosperity Gospel.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/26 01:45 AM
1

Neocalvinism. That's what I called it at least. And yeah, modern Progressive culture is heavily influenced by Neocalvinism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/26 07:39 PM
2

As someone who is older, even if you're going to take the idea that there's a lot of trash takes on Feminism out there, the assumption that they have to all come from the right is just wrong. There was a whole host of really toxic sites under the guise of feminism sending out awful ideas. Everyday Feminism, Teen Vogue, Jezebel. These were places with pretty substantial reach. We have to break kayfabe and recognize that there are bad ideas....and bad actors, on the left as well.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/26 07:35 PM
6

Yeah. It's kind of a positive vs. normative thing. They're arguing we've been made to be that way, and we need help in not being that way, and we're arguing that we're not that and we need help in changing the stereotypes, assumptions and expectations that we are that way. That's the big difference. Definitely puts us at odds tho
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/26 12:29 PM
3

Just to be clear, I don't think this is a Feminism problem per se. There's a reason I said Progressive culture. I strongly believe that the left took a turn about 2012-ish in order to protect social and cultural power in the face of algo-driven social media that made it more apparent and public. It's a Progressive/Academia problem. That overlaps Feminism to be clear, but they are distinct things. Edit: And to be clear, I don't think it's based on anything positive. If anything the whole "I'm awe…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/26 06:02 PM
5

This is actually why, even though I'm small-p progressive, I'm very much against modern Progressive culture. The denial of social and cultural power often comes from people who seek to exploit and abuse that power. It's actually why I think it's wrong to put the blame on women for this stuff. Largely these ideas come from people who are looking to entrench and protect their own bases of power. To be blunt, it's that power that prevents the shame, which naturally stems from these ideas. But not e…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/26 04:59 PM
2

Anyway… once again like feminism this seems to be an issue of misapplication by individuals and not the theory itself? To be clear, I don't think the problem is Queer Theory itself. I think it's more of a case that it's not really applied to the outgroup, the other. The way I describe it, is that you see the people close to you in detail, but the people further away from you, you just see the outlines, and it's those further away people who theory gets applied to. The other thing, the issue is t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 11:05 PM
2

How can I put this. The queer people I've met very often put OTHER people into very small boxes, even if they deny them for themselves. I'm not saying you want that, to be clear, but that's been my experience. The issue as I see it, is that the belief that we're stuck in this rigid box is its own rigid box, if that makes any sense. It's something based on its own set of stereotypes and assumptions. I've always put the blame on academia and the demand for Capital-K Knowledge as the issue here. Th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 09:58 PM
2

I think the problem is the nature of the definitions to begin with. It's a controversial place to pull from, but the best way I've seen it put is in a graph included in the Damore memo that caused such a controversy at Google a while back. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3wScHL968Z6E4pJ3SeXUbtAPu9GSXPgz3hJGDqPOEQQ&s We want the top graph, more or less, but what we're getting from Progressive Academic Feminism is the bottom graph. It's actually why I'm iffy on Pronouns, esp…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 09:33 PM
6

It's why I say the way that Toxic Masculinity was formed and used by Progressive/Critical Feminists was, in itself, an example of Toxic Masculinity as defined in the original Mytheopoetic Men's Movement form. There's a real "pull yourself down by the bootstraps" mentality to the whole thing that at its core relies on a toxic concept of stoicism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 08:00 PM
15

Just to add on to this, I think "impact over intent" requires shame to actually work to affect change. Because you actually have to believe that your actions will have a negative effect off the hop...you have to be self-critical in an unhealthy way. It's also very obviously, in this case, a gendered rule. Or probably more accurately a tribalistic rule. Going back years, the way I've always seen it is "Your intent isn't magic, but ours is". Shame is required to accept that you deserve less.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 06:36 PM
14

We're not all American.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 05:18 PM
16

Feminist models based around power rely on toxic shame to work, as power is something external, given to you by others. Especially in a culture that will look down upon you for actually giving up that power. And to be clear, in that I mean Progressive Feminism itself. As someone who in the past has "done the work" of isolating myself, turning down jobs and promotions, in general being the good doormat, it's that shame which allows that to happen. Either we need to accept and value this toxic sha…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 04:10 PM
21

I was actually in the same boat way back when. Theoretically, intersectionality should lead to something approaching egalitarianism. But it doesn't. Because intersectionality actually is based around monodirectional concepts of power, it ends up leaving out all sorts of facets of power, privilege and bias that might serve to actively threaten that monodirectionality. Class, status, personality traits, etc. Especially coming from academia, and parts of academia that are essentially selling class …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 04:04 PM
4

Fwiw, this is essentially the "woke as religion" argument. That to do anything productive, you need to agree to set aside these ideas, either for or against.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 11:49 AM
13

This might be a bit too harsh...but I don't think it's fundamentally wrong. I think there's a legitimate question to be had about the effect that ideas will have when they break containment, and go out into the real world, that this is something that should be considered. I'll be honest, I actually do think ideas need to be considered on an individual level. What does this look like if actually applied to an individual? You can't just say don't. Because that's not realistic. It's why I do think …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/26 03:41 AM
32

Honestly, I've met these people before, IRL even. It's less that they're hiding their emotions, per se, it's more that they really do believe that they're so wonderful and amazing that these things don't actually apply to them. Which makes them....kinda dangerous, TBH. It is something I would consider a red flag. The unfortunate reality is "I don't do that", too often is yeah, you actually DO do that. You just blame all men for it rather than your own behavior.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/26 08:13 PM
24

I'll say it again, power-based approaches rely on toxic shame for change. They rely on actually viewing yourself through that lens in a negative fashion in order for people to actually change their behavior. People need to either proverbially shit or get off the pot. Learn to accept the shame and the resulting personality traits and behaviors, the depression, the anxiety, etc. or recognize that the whole framework is harmful and replace it with something else more focused on actual behavior rega…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/26 05:54 PM
5

Fwiw it's both my belief and experience that these ideas were actually fringe until the rise of algo-driven social media and potential in-group biases became more clear and public, and something was needed to cover up for that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/26 01:11 PM
4

I'll say it, in reality it's a Toxic Shame crisis that comes from being bombarded with messages that masculinity is inherently bad. Either you internalize it or you react against it. Neither is actually healthy. It's a crisis of self-worth more than anything.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/26 02:58 AM
1

Yeah that's a thing. But to bring it full circle, I wouldn't talk about those groups without noting the conscription either.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/26 10:14 PM
9

I legitimately believe we are looking at more than one cause for gender dysphoria, with probably different best ways to treat it depending on the cause. If it was a more common option when I was growing up, it's something I absolutely would have considered.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/26 08:11 PM
9

For me, it's that the threat of being deconstructed gives me all sorts of social anxiety. Having what I do and who I am reframed through this incredibly negative framework that just deride everything you are. I have a good friend group but that just increases the anxiety. More to lose and all that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/26 03:29 PM
9

I'm pro-Trans, to be clear. But I think there's a legitimate reason to be concerned that Progressive/Critical Gender models might actually be causing gender dysphoria.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/26 03:17 PM
7

I think the ability to keep these things theoretical is a very real privilege that some people have, and that has to be recognized. These ideas are going to break containment, and there's a real important question about how it's going to manifest if it does. There's also that there's no guardrails. No broadcasted messages saying do not apply these ideas to individuals or about how they are harmful if internalized or actualized. At least none that I've seen. I've talked about Toxic Shame, and the…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/26 03:13 PM
3

I'll be honest, I kinda just hate the party vibe of hip hop. There are exceptions, but...I'll be honest, it feels fake to me. I don't know why, but it's like...you're a big-name artist, do you really live like that, really? And I mean yeah it's storytelling. OK. Sure. But I dunno. I just can't relate to it. Frankly, I find too much it leans in too hard to the Male Gender Role. And I think there's the other part, outside the music. Are we just luring vulnerable young men into a deconstruction hea…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/26 04:04 AM
4

I don't even think it's a material thing. I think people are straight up just protecting other advantages. Class, networking, personality, etc. Making a distinction between men who are falling behind and men who are not reveals a lot about our society.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/26 03:32 AM
23

I'll give another example I see all the time. People talking about the social upheaval in South Korea without acknowledging and including the mandatory conscription as even potentially part of that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/01/26 11:54 PM
6

This is where the up/down spectrum is super important. What I see is people wanting to judge people based on social status. It's just that things like height are seen as a marker of social status. That's why I'm just anti-up in general. Any of this hierarchy stuff I'm against.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/01/26 03:53 PM
8

I would say the understanding should be that there's so much flux in that question it's impossible to actually give an answer. Maybe you're advantaged from being a man, maybe you're disadvantaged. But there's a whole host of other criteria that goes into determining that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/01/26 03:36 AM
12

So why continue to use the term that erases that experience?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/01/26 03:34 AM
6

I wrote that post on Toxic Shame, and I think it's a really good example of Toxic Shame inducing language. Like you, I can count on one hand the amount of times since high school, where I've heard men engage in that behavior...it's just not done. But I've witnessed women engaging in that behavior a hell of a lot more. But it's bad when men do it because.... systemic and historical power? This can't be anything else but a shaming attack.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/01/26 11:31 AM
3

Just to add one thing, I don't think what I call sociological essentialism is much better. The idea that all men are socialized the same way, as an example, can be harmful as well.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/01/26 10:12 PM
16

I don’t need you to stop calling yourself a feminist. So I'm going to KINDA disagree with that. It would be nice if people stopped calling themselves "feminists", because there's no such thing. That is, you need more descriptors. Are someone a Radical Feminist, a Choice Feminist, a Liberal Feminist, etc. Truth is it would be nice if it was acknowledged you could be a feminist, or at least support women's rights without buying into academic concepts of identitarian power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/01/26 09:42 PM
17

Honestly it's just.... gaslighting really. A good recent example, as I saw it last night, was the idea that men only play golf because otherwise going on a walk with your friends is "gay". How do you respond to that? My experience is that when you stand up against these sorts of things people who make these deconstructions don't see them as a learning experience, they see it as reactionary. I play disc golf. Close enough. I do it not to not look "gay", but I like hiking in the woods. I like tryi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/01/26 04:34 PM
10

There's a reason I say straight up that deconstruction is dehumanizing and it's something we should frown upon in our society. Maybe some of it is "good analysis" but is it really worth all the bigotry that comes along with it?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/01/26 04:10 PM
16

Remember that historically Progressivism is linked to Eugenics. I'm not saying that to justify reactionary...well...reactions, but I'll be honest, since the return of this Capital-P Progressive culture, as a neurodivergent person I've always felt it had this Fuck Off and Die aspect to it towards people like me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/01/26 02:12 PM
4

So, as someone who is older and kinda was in those places. Here's my two takes. First, all the analysis I've seen say that there wasn't much in the way of actual content/concept generation done by foreign troll farms, it largely was just amplifying existing ideas through likes/forwarding/etc. The actual big culprit was online "journalism" outlets self-radicalizing for attention) Second, as someone who was more extreme on these issues on average than most people (an actual self-hating male femini…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/01/26 08:22 PM
1

The problem is that as it stands right now, the first option would trigger war fairly quickly, and probably a return to the status quo, and the second would trigger an instant genocide tbh. What's needed is for the existence of Israel to be accepted. Don't take any of this as approval of what Israel is doing, but I also think that the perceived Western support of the Oct 7th attacks probably raised the stakes for Israel resulting in a much more aggressive response. There's enough blame to go aro…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/01/26 05:37 PM
3

Going to give my experience, and it's kind of a reverse view. What ruined the left is the desire for defending social and status hierarchies and different rules for different people based upon it. The misandry is just a tool in that regard, a way to distract and justify the primary goal. I'll say it again, if you're going to actually judge them by their own rules, the modern popular Progressive movement is deeply problematic as it's based around some really ugly things. To be blunt, it's based a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/01/26 02:02 PM
3

I'll just say the same thing I usually do. The epistemology is wrong coming out of academia. There's no such thing as actual "Knowledge" when it comes to human society. People reject this stuff because it doesn't match their own personal experiences.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/01/26 02:34 AM
7

Just to add one thing on this, I think the actual goal of modern Progressive culture (like you I have a lot of left values but I have no time for that culture or the ideas it promotes) is to give the "right" people power so they can then make that determination. The truth is, one thing that kinda makes me better from this Toxic Shame is the idea that people don't actually believe this stuff. They're not actually viewing the people close to them through this lens of systemic power. When I talk ab…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/12/25 02:06 PM
5

I personally call that the "Pink Pill". My own take is that the modern Red Pill and the Pink Pill are linked in such a way where you really can't and shouldn't separate them. They are essentially one and the same, essentially congenial twins, and attempts to fight the former while giving the latter a pass is making it impossible to do the former. Edit: One thing I'll disagree with, is that I think there's a way to actually be a "Pink Pill Communist" and I've seen quite a few of them. People who …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/12/25 02:50 AM
24

The Progressive effort to reform masculinity is designed to sand the edges off the arrogant and hyperconfident, not lift up the shy and anxious. So yeah, maybe it works for this guy, but that doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/12/25 03:45 PM
13

Honestly I can't stand modern pop music as a whole. What it reflects on our culture isn't good at all.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/12/25 04:55 PM
9

I think that's the thing, intersectionality is something designed (yes I think there's an element of intent here) to make people think they care about class when they really don't.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/12/25 04:51 PM
15

I don't see misogyny, I see pushing back against harmful double standards that both cause mental health issues in vulnerable people and also do nothing to actually change gendered norms and expectations.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/12/25 11:52 AM
15

Frankly, the toxic shame these double standards cause is a serious issue and I wouldn't be glib about it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/12/25 11:46 AM
23

Fwiw, remember the toxic shame thing I mentioned in another post, and that a lot of it is based around assumptions of bad intent? I think this is 100% an example of that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/12/25 09:24 PM
13

I think that's overwhelmingly the message that is sent. Like that things are about power and control when men do them. But when women do them, they're assumed to have more healthy, positive intentions. Or maybe I'm overstating it, and let's say it's about assumed power dynamics and how that reframes the ethics/morality of your behavior. Both lead to the same place I think. But yeah, I think the justification of double standards has resulted in a lot of toxic shame out there and it's a major prob…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/12/25 02:52 PM
17

It's not even that. Like, let's just take the steelman of the message towards men, that men just need to be "mindful". They're often not, I think, both the people I know IRL and the personalities online, they're very socially aggressive and often just straight up reckless, if not having a tendency to get nasty when they want to. That's my take, I'm planning on writing an article here about toxic shame, as I think it's an important concept we're ignoring. That is, that "male loneliness epidemic" …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/12/25 02:40 PM
22

Where did Andrew Tate come from? He came from the rise of a new wave of Red Pill content that came from the increasingly unchallenged popularity of Pink Pill content. The whole thing is based around a reaction to that Pink Pill mentality, the combination of feminist theory and an insane amount of entitlement and a desire for a more strict Male Gender Role. The left didn't "ignore" young men. It caused a toxic shame epidemic. It told young men that they were bad for who they were, that because th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/12/25 01:18 PM
30

It's important to note that those male feminists are essentially emotional grifters. They don't really believe what they're saying, or I guess more specifically, they have personality traits that make them immune to the toxic shame they are selling. If you don't have that immunity, those messages will either destroy you or make you rebel. It's as simple as that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/12/25 01:09 PM
6

Fwiw I didn't look at it, I was actually being glib at my own ignorance, as to be honest, Id generally view myself as a more pluralistic person than most. The walking embodiment of so open-minded my brains fall out. Sorry if that came across as weird. And for the record what I mean as nonsense you see a lot of on the left as well. Just mindless ideology. But I don't think this is that, after reading it I do think it's a very well put together argument that a certain cohort got well and truly fuc…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/12/25 08:05 PM
10

I think I just wanted to dismiss it as just right wing nonsense, to be honest. But it turns out I've been making the same arguments, to a degree, for a while now. Oh. Yeah, it's always been clear to me that we haven't been sharing the costs around the entire population and instead it's all been essentially punching down. Going after and really hammering those who are trying to find their way, while those who already have....well....it would be wrong to take it away. It's clear to me that always …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/12/25 02:48 AM
15

Would have worked, maybe, if they aimed the proverbial death ray at the Male Gender Role, if they treated the view of man as a provider as reactionary, unacceptable, abusive nonsense. But nope. That didn't happen.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/12/25 02:36 AM
6

Yeah. Even taking the larger cultural bits out of it, lets assume that there's an issue with boys who are raised for lack of a better term in a patriarchal environment. (Nobody is more critical of how that term is used than I am, but I do think there are individual households and local environments that do heavily promote male-dominated traditional gender roles, even if it's far from universal). Is there going to be anything in this program to actually make a distinction? Boys that are raised in…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/12/25 03:28 PM
9

The problem with intersectionality is that most often it's not allowed to break the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy. It's still a series of mono-directional power structures, which ultimately is far divorced from reality.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/12/25 09:40 PM
17

and we have feminists becoming female-equivalent Andrew Tates essentially. Yeaaaahhhh I think everybody can see that. It's painfully obvious, and it's probably something we need to be addressing. I'll just restate my argument that I believe that just a little bit of mild criticism of Pink Pill content and culture in a mainstream venue would go a LONG way to cooling things down. (Pink Pill being that Tate wannabe stuff that advocates for a super harsh Male Gender Role in a very misandric manner)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/25 08:37 PM
4

Going to play a bit of Devil's Advocate here I guess, because I think it's a bit nuanced. If you're criticizing the Male Gender Role as it exists in today's society, it's very difficult for people to make the distinction between that and "Red Pill" content, because it's all based on the same idea, that the Male Gender Role hasn't gone away. The big difference is just how different people react to that concept.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/25 08:32 PM
3

That's where I'm at tbh. And I mean I'm still on the left ..but I can't blame people who are not. Which gets people mad at me but whatever. There's been a new progressivism for the last decade and a half that's been about anything but solidarity and equity. It's all about hierarchy. Different rules for different people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/25 12:40 PM
2

Yuuup. I actually think it goes to show how deep the misandry and the Male Gender Role enforcement are. I think it's the rare intensity of the love. I think usually in these stories the female protagonist is much colder and more distant, but Marin is obviously head over heels from early on in the story. For those who haven't seen it, it's less about what the MC can do for her, and it's more that he accepts her hidden degen side, to be blunt. That's the thing that to her connects them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/25 07:55 PM
2

Honestly? I haven't seen much of that series at all. Ironically enough. Do not have cable, so I couldn't answer that exactly. But probably? And yeah. She thinks his doll making is really cool and actively worries that him helping her with her costumes is taking away from his growth as a dollmaker. Like that's the thing. It's actually a super healthy relationship. Both people are concerned about the feelings and well-being of the other, even if that leads to awkward stuff sometimes or maybe misse…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/12/25 03:37 AM
0

I don't know how much this will help. But I really do think a high % of the amount of identitarian rhetoric we see one way or the other is performative. This isn't saying that racism, or racist statements are OK. But I do see a lot of people who make those statements...but don't actually apply them to individuals. And honestly, thank fuck it's performative to be honest. Things could be a LOT worse than they currently are.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/12/25 03:33 AM
4

I don't know that anime, but I know its always been fashionable to punch down on males who are seen as not cutting it, mostly socially (being virgins, unmarried in 30s+, or who are heavily into geek stuff, or who are very nerdy into science (or both)). Their income rarely matters there, unless they're millionaires. It's weird, because my most Liked Tweet is actually about that anime, strangely enough. Just to be clear what it's about, it's about a teenage boy who is learning to become a traditio…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/12/25 03:31 AM
1

Yup. Just to add on to this, what I would personally argue is that materialist pressures played an extremely important role in building and maintaining gender norms.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/12/25 03:42 PM
7

See my comment above, should have spread this out but the quick answer is that critical models are created by neurotypical people to be performative, and we autistic people have a hard time with being performative.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/12/25 01:28 PM
11

The problem with intersectionality is that it's intentionally incomplete and hollow. It leaves out all sorts of things, even if it's including class, which is somewhat rare in and of itself. It's a result of bad epistemology coming out of academia imo that's overly reductive. And on the autistic part? Speaking as one, what I really do think is that critical models (models based on strict identity power dynamics) are created by neurotypical people to be performative. And we autistic people tend t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/12/25 01:26 PM
14

Also, while I think that while oppression of both males and females is an even greater problem in non-Western countries, I think that females' oppression is significantly greater.\ I wouldn't say it's significantly. I'd say it's like...60-40? 55-45? But I think it's shrinking in a way that's really worrying, because there's no brakes on that particular train. It's going to get UGLY. Edit: Oh crap I misread you. You're talking about other countries. Gotcha. So we agree there, yeah, things are a l…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/12/25 03:31 AM
9

Just to be clear, it's not that I'm NOT critical of that industry. It's just that there's some level of criticism of that industry, and when it comes to "pink pill" content, outside of the relatively unrecognized egalitarian sphere there's....nothing. Certainly there's nothing of any sort of quality, other than reactionary takes. (Which is actually what I think the modern Red Pill wave ENTIRELY is, a reaction to the Pink Pill)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/12/25 01:53 AM
5

Just to be clear, I don't actually entirely disagree with you. Maybe this is dumb to say online, but I realistically don't know what to think on this, and that you very much might be right and it's something we have to deal with. I just don't know which path we go down.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/12/25 01:51 AM
13

I think you have to pull back. The Red Pill stuff doesn't have to be proscriptive. A lot of people simply see it as descriptive. Like I'll be honest. While I disagree with pretty much all of the conclusions...I do think it's identifying something that's true: The Male Gender Role has not gone away. The question is what do we DO about that. (Which again, I don't like a lot of their answers, but once you realize that it's descriptive, the "tough love" approach makes more sense)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/12/25 10:24 PM
7

So here's the thing. It's not JUST big money who are drowning out men's plea's for help. So if you take away big money....there's still something there. Here's my own personal belief. The Oppressor/Oppressed Gender Dichotomy is largely upheld by the Managerial/Salary class coming out of academia. Back when a lot of the modern gender ideas were conceived, academia was essentially (much more it is today, to be fair) in the role of being socioeconomic proof. It's against their self-interest to actu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/12/25 10:20 PM
11

Could I give a sort of thought experiment on why I think it might not be the rich that are the problem? Let's assume a post-capitalist world. What would it look like? Let's use my personal favorite, Anarcho-Socialism. Private Capital is essentially replaced with a series of co-op enterprises. I'm actually going to ignore the very real potential problems with regulatory capture that might arise. (Although if anybody wants I could go through THAT particular nightmare) Does that actually by itself …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/12/25 09:43 PM
26

I mean the solution is to talk about how to deemphasize the Male Gender Role in our society. But yeah, it would involve some level of reflection and accountability. It would break the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy and raise uncomfortable questions.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/12/25 09:34 PM
64

The underlying problem is the Male Gender Role, and unless you're willing to criticize "Pink Pill" content, that is, messages that use feminist theory and culture to justify a more stark and demanding Male Gender Role....what are you doing? And then on top of it you have all the messages tearing down confidence and self-esteem.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/12/25 05:34 PM
10

There's not much there that DOESN'T go through the Oppressor/Oppressed Gender Dichotomy, at least in terms of idea and culture. That's the problem, is that even if you're presenting a more liberal perspective (in terms of the up-down political spectrum, which is how I like to think about liberalism). if you're using that memeset and culture, you're still reflecting/promoting that gender dichotomy. I think the question is why. My own take is that the OOGD does not challenge class. Let's take clas…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/12/25 09:21 PM
13

I was thinking about this today. I feel like in so many ways we're stuck fighting the previous war. Not us, talking about more about society at large, or at least the modern Progressive discourse. To put it simply, I largely agree with other writers. Most of the advice I see is about making us more productive to other people. Very little about our own innate value. And I'll be honest, are there selfish men out there who can stand to hear the message that maybe sometimes they should put other peo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/11/25 11:50 PM
10

It's never ever able-bodied university-educated neurotypicals. Yup. They'll never leave the identitarian sphere for that reason. It's all about protecting one's own advantages.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/11/25 11:45 PM
5

One thing I try to get out there is to mirror feminism and note the "waves" of Red Pill content. The Andrew Tate and co. stuff being just the newest wave. Not like I expect people to accept this explanation, because it sounds reasonable, and people like clear heroes and villains, but I'd personally describe the "Red Pill" as simply an understanding that the Male Gender Role hasn't gone away like we are being told it had. That's it. Now, I disagree with pretty much all the popular reactions based…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/11/25 01:54 PM
11

The thing is, what does it mean to "take your boot off someone's neck". Is it just performative,? That's never made clear, and like I said, because the Male Gender Role really hasn't been addressed, efforts to actually divest power are broadly punished and looked down upon. Our society rewards compliance. It's just that the right is presenting a better way to succeed at it than the left currently is.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/11/25 04:41 PM
26

"Nice Guy-ism" essentially. Like I said, the unacknowledged part is how men are actively socialized into that in the guise of reforming masculinity. The truth is, the idea was just to sand the edges off more traditional masculinity....but not everyone had those edges to begin with
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/11/25 02:53 PM
44

I'll be honest, I got very lucky to avoid inceldom. My wife made all the moves. But without that? Yeah I'd be in that boat. I think in some ways that does make me a bit of a simp tho. Anyway, my point being is that I think feminist theory and messaging as absorbed by people with already low self-worth and self-esteem is the cause of these things. The anger comes from how maladaptive it all is. How society hasn't changed to value the "reformed man". In a way it's putting the cart before the horse…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/11/25 01:07 PM
9

People more than likely struggle with social media orders of magnitude than they struggle with porn.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/11/25 08:03 PM
3

Well, some women. But yeah, I think there's some truth to that. That is, I do believe that the modern wave of the red pill, and it's demand for a more traditional femininety (which I don't agree with) does largely come from a desire for reciprocity with that pink pill, Male Gender Role-maxing mindset and culture.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/11/25 05:31 PM
8

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. There's simply no discussion about how women uphold the Male Gender Role. But we go after Red Pill women they say...yeah for their views on women. I'm actually someone who believes that the pink pill nonsense is actually a serious problem. Just every bit as the more toxic elements of the Red Pill. But it flies completely under the radar. And truth be told, I don't think you can actually tackle inequality unless you're willing to seriously tackle the Mal…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/11/25 02:54 PM
3

Reagan wasn't a Neoliberal. Bill Clinton is a better example. Neoliberalism is the idea that losing in a more competitive marketplace for labor would be made up for with government programs. Which doesn't work and people don't really want to be honest. And what I see a lot of today is something related. Neoprogressivism as I call it. Which is essentially punishing certain groups for historical advantages, with the idea that it'll be made up for with government programs. Being old and in the spac…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/25 02:44 PM
16

Is it pessimistic or is it reality? I don't think feminist theory actually presents men as human. Just some sort of abstract monster or villain. Some sort of faceless, disposable other. And yeah, I think that's a reason why male feminists with a platform tend to be crazy arrogant bordering on abusive. Because that's what it takes to not have these ideas destroy you. To actually believe you are deserving of having a platform, a voice. That you're the magical exception to systemic power dynamics. …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/25 12:35 PM
14

Feminist theory should kill your confidence, your sense of self. The realization that you don't deserve, more people than likely, your job, your relationships, etc, that they're all based on abusive and coercive power should destroy you. And yet they all are arrogant as fuck.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/25 12:17 PM
6

Let me be clear. I'm someone who considers myself as having a "front row seat" for the rise of what I call "Modern Progressivism" or whatever you want to call it. I don't think those thought leaders, the people who promoted this new way of thinking gave two fucks about mass mobilization. I think the only thing they thought about is redirecting attention away from other facets of power, privilege and bias that they enjoy. To be blunt, I think it's unlikely, in 2025, that a man gets a job that he …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/25 03:48 AM
25

What does it say about the left in general and the online left in particular that they treat this like it's some kind of meme? Because to do otherwise means that they have to take accountability for the reality that their ideas and messaging, the focus on "systemic" power, has caused a mental health crisis. More for men, but it's hit women too, just in ways we haven't really identified or are willing to talk about yet.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/25 03:40 AM
5

I think it's an important question of if those outside thought leaders are taking that 1+1 and coming up with 2 or 3. Are they simply taking these underlying concepts and bringing them to their natural conclusion, or are they jumping off into something unjustified? I'll be honest, I personally think it is more the former than the latter. If you do think that men have this extremely high in-group bias, then frankly, a lot of those ideas make sense, and maybe men should be kept out of positions of…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/11/25 07:45 PM
8

Honestly, the type of Progressive that gets upset when power and privilege are reframed from identity to social/network power. In 2025, it's very unlikely you got a job you didn't deserve just because you're male. It's much more likely you got a job you didn't deserve because you knew someone and had the right contacts. Keeping people focused on the former so we don't look at the latter is a big part of modern Progressivism. It's why we focus so hard on "Billionaires" rather than acknowledging t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/11/25 03:18 PM
8

The problem is that most if not all feminist theory is based off those models of power. So while yeah, one can be a feminist and reject those theories and models, that's not something that's unfortunately broadly accepted. And it's not unreasonable to say that if you reject those theories and models, egalitarian is a more accurate label. The focus on power really does turn men into mustache twirling villains. It's why I much prefer a discourse that focuses on responsibilities, expectations and p…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/11/25 03:12 PM
-5

The sad thing about that is that this pay gap existed within the Obama administration. They had the power to fix it and chose not to. Just to be clear, what I'm saying is that this both is and isn't an issue. That is, I think our social/cultural norms about pay are fucked up, but I'm not convinced it's strictly about gender.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/11/25 02:55 PM
17

One of the things I wished was discussed was when talking about content that pushes men to the right, or to a more reactionary position content like this was included. It's the same with the discussion surrounding the shutting down of Teen Vogue recently. If people are going to complain that people don't understand terms like Patriarchy and Toxic Masculinity, why not hold these platforms responsible for their role in perpetuating this "misinformation"? The reason we don't is people want kayfabe.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/11/25 02:46 PM
7

The specific argument I'm talking about is anything with a power-based focus, especially one based strictly around a monodirectional oppressor vs. oppressed dichotomy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/11/25 09:18 PM
19

The actual answer is that at some point the popular left switched from an Egalitarian to a Critical view of identity in order to carve out and protect their own status based privileges. Truth be told, so much of it comes from a toxic community that went big into these Critical concepts as a way primarily to engage in pro-social bullying. And then it was picked up by a community that used these concepts to blame SA and harassment on the other, the outgroup.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/11/25 02:12 PM
8

I try to say I'm pro-feminist but anti-feminist theory, which is, as you said, at best completely hidebound and is unable to account for social and cultural changes in our society, and at worst, the result of narcissistic and entitled classism within academia.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/11/25 02:30 AM
1

Like isn’t that the point of all this stuff? That in the end we live as free individuals? That's not something I'd assume. I think for some people the goal is in the end we all live as free individuals (or at least as free as we can be considering that freedom to some extent IS a zero sum game, or maybe it's more like it's something that has to be actively balanced)...but I don't think that's the case across the board, or I guess across the left. The honest truth is, I see a LOT of people on the…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/11/25 01:34 AM
3

And why are we doing absolutely zero about the way that women uphold this system of gender norms. Like, a message that women shouldn't view the men in their lives as providers and protectors because that's regressive and traditionalist shouldn't be a tough message. But...it seems to be.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/11/25 07:07 PM
11

On a heteromajority society, women are the judges. (Like sports judges)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/11/25 02:07 AM
10

That's the thing. If you actually apply it to yourself, feminist theory will and should lower your sense of self. And nobody actually tells you up front you shouldn't apply it to yourself. It's why I think the real problem is a mental health crisis stemming from the bombardment of misandrist ideas.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/11/25 12:37 PM
11

It's because you really do need quite a bit of arrogance to hold these ideas in parallel.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/11/25 06:36 PM
19

I'll just go a bit lower and say that it's due to the increasing view of men as expendable and disposable. I know quite a few men, who once they get in a relationship are expected to give up their pre-existing friendships, and center their social life around their partner. Needless to say this has knock-on effects as it really can end friend groups.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/11/25 06:35 PM
18

Until men are no longer seen as primary providers, I think this is always going to be seen as an issue. And I'll be honest, I don't think that will be a thing until we build a more materialist, less status driven society.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/11/25 12:52 PM
8

Not OCD but Autistic, maybe that wraps back around and is linked in some ways but whatever. But for me to be comfortable in a group/for that place to be accessible, two things are very important. A. I can copy/mirror acceptable behavior. and B. Intent matters, I.E. there's some amount of grace for well-meaning people. I'm not going to lie, I find gender activism places (I.E. feminism) to be really bad on those two points. I actually don't think this has anything to do with feminism itself per se…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/11/25 10:03 PM
11

The whole thing has always been based around getting men to "turn off" that self-interest part of our brains. It doesn't HAVE to be. It could be different without that oppressor/oppressed dichotomy. But it's not. Edit: Needless to say, people don't react very well to that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/10/25 12:01 AM
8

Just to add on to equal standards of behavior, I personally think it goes past just men vs. women. I'm someone that believes....or I guess more correctly I watched and experienced the rise of the popularity of identitarian politics on the left tied to different rules for different people more broadly. Not even just tied to identity....largely talking about status and in-group vs. out-group here. Looping back around, I think that Critical brand of Feminist theory pushes towards something people j…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/10/25 04:18 PM
7

Patriarchy as much as anything else is a motive. The idea is that power was and is claimed and hoarded by men. This....is not something that flies with me. I actually much prefer a materialist analysis, that historically gender roles formed out of...well...material needs. Especially the role that childbirth played in terms of limiting women's public access, and how the industrial revolution opened a lot of this up. It's why I reject the power-based analysis that again, is essentially putting men…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/10/25 03:15 PM
5

Well, that's why I said we need broader social change. The big block you have to get past is the idea that there's something wrong about putting yourself out there in the first place. And the reinforcement of that idea still abounds. It's actually why I think the sole focus on male power is so harmful, with no discussion on responsibilities or expectations. And we're still seeing that broadcast....look at the whole Man vs Bear thing. Again, understanding that this mindset directly stems from Pro…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/10/25 06:54 PM
10

Fwiw, on the Incel thing, the big problem is still pretending that it's something reactionary rather than progressive. I'm not saying that it's good, or I agree with it, but I certainly would label it as a "Dark Progressivism" more than anything else. It's a chaotic mess, to be sure, but the root of it all was that the promise of reducing or eliminating the Male Gender Role hasn't gone away at all, while at the same time conditioning men to be less able to perform it, which has ended up very mal…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/10/25 04:19 PM
3

It's less the micro expressions, and it's more the silhouette. It's certainly a stereotype, but I don't actually blame people for it because I can see it myself, in that a lot of ND men tend to have that stockier build. have the privilege though that if that woman had been uncomfortable with me, id have just ignored her stupid ass and caught no real grief for it. To be clear, I think one of the big issues is that we're socializing men to be aware of this stuff, and that often comes out in unexpe…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/10/25 04:33 PM
6

Yeah thats definitely a trick people pull. Its a bit like reducing anti social aggressive behaviour to the term “karen”, it does a disservice to the civically minded by reducing it to some kind of crazy lady thing. Yeah. And the thing is it was never strictly a woman thing. Although I will say this, being a "male Karen" is a good way to catch a charge. That sucks that you went into the rain. Did she smile and imply the gesture was unnecessary afterwards? Nope. I hate to use the word, but I do th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/10/25 03:28 PM
12

I'll tell you what it is. Putting men in it gets away from putting blame on the creepy behaviors or personality traits, like being pushy or arrogant. Things that might be more general (and a lot of men have bad experiences with as well). That's something that makes it seem like it is essentially a status game. So how people react to this is often related to confidence and self-image. Being 5"4 and neurodivergant (and I look like it), I understand that my presence often comes across as creepy. It…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/10/25 01:43 PM
15

Will men have equal access to.those things? I think that's a legitimate question.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/10/25 01:27 PM
2

And their insight says that I'm the enemy. That there's no ethical way for me to exist in the world. But instead of saying yeah, those are bigoted assholes, we have to listen to them. And remember. Oppressors deserve nothing. Who cares what hurt, what pain we might have. All we are is tyrants.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/10/25 01:11 PM
2

I actually go the other way, what makes the modern Progressive culture a religion isn't when people sacrifice themselves to it, it's when they don't. It's the double speak, the hypocrisy. In any case, I disagree. Words mean things. I think it would be a different case if the limits were acknowledged, the variance and diversity that exists in our society, but that's not the case. People really do hold on tightly to these concepts of universal power dynamics. And those universal power dynamics, as…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/10/25 12:57 PM
4

I think a lot of people are just not wired to see things that way. I'm just not capable of not, if these models are true, seeing myself as an absolute monster who has no ethical way to really exist for myself in this world. I've been having some issues with my wife, because she does believe in these models but sees me as an exception. And I don't believe these models have room for exceptions. But even if I am...what makes me a good person? Well, it's the trauma of growing up in a heavily feminiz…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/10/25 12:14 PM
0

One of the big flaws I see on the left currently is the assumption that people are materialist, in the Marxist sense. I don't think this is the case, and I think people are more motivated, on average, by relative status concerns, their spot on the hierarchy. One thing I believe strongly is that the left has to actually create the conditions by pushing for a more materialist culture. And I see this framing of these issues as something that makes this significantly harder.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/10/25 05:03 PM
5

So I'm not the above person, but I think the general answer is that some (most) people are just not wired that way. This isn't a Feminism problem per se, it's more a problem with academic models of society and culture. That the majority will look at the stereotypes and generalizations, see that doesn't meet their experiences, and as such think that it's wrong. And that's opposed to people who keep these things separated.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/10/25 01:09 PM
28

Not all of us are American. I'll be honest, while I do come at this from a left-wing position, I've long rejected the idea that the idea of progressing the well-being of men is necessarily something that's going to be on the left. More so, I think it's actually strongly something that I would classify as "south of center". I.E. it's the rejection of hierarchy and the acknowledgement of individual diversity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/10/25 08:36 PM
5

This actually reminds me of something, I was having kidney stones (which are no joke pain wise) and the attending doctor wouldn't provide any pain medicine. Said it's just transitory pain and I can get through it. Then another doctor came (both were women btw) and said get this man on some morphine asap, what the hell are you doing. So yeah. I think it's a thing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/10/25 06:30 PM
7

Personally, I think the whole "insecurity" thing is another hypocrisy from Cultural Progressives. I'm not going to lie, as a man, I don't understand how you believe those things and NOT be insecure. I should say, it's not that I don't understand it. It's more like it's this massive red flag. Like, your whole life should be essentially walking on eggshells, really.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/10/25 06:29 PM
3

The reality is that all the cultural politics stuff, people just don't apply that stuff to themselves and the people they care about, for the most part. It's just not a healthy or realistic set of standards.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/10/25 06:22 PM
2

To be blunt, I think that way of going about things is the focus of much of the toxic "Toxic Masculinity" rhetoric. It's absolutely not healthy on an individual level.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/10/25 03:51 PM
15

The Male Gender Role is still the prominent social/cultural force in our society. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/10/25 02:13 AM
4

I mean yeah. One of the things that plagues the PMC in particular, is something called the Iron Law of Institutions. That is, at some point the institution will no longer be run towards it's established goal, whatever that may be, and instead, it'll be run towards the benefit of those inside said institution/organization. I think that's what you see here especially. I mean, really what we're talking about is a desire to funnel pretty much everything through various arms of the publishing industr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/10/25 02:10 AM
6

Actually yeah, that's a good point as well, but I'll put something on top of that. The expectation that you cut off "problematic" people is also something that doesn't make for friendships either. Nobody is perfect, of course. So this ends up being another one of those shittests that basically just muddies all the waters for little to no actual benefit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/10/25 02:07 AM
12

I don't think that's the case, or at least that's not something I see. I think the pressure to be in a relationship is part of the problem...but the larger part is because of that, men's friendships are considered transitory. Once in a relationship, he'll be expected to give them up. Or once your friends are in a relationship, they'll be expected to give them up. Same thing. Ultimately it IS an issue of Male Disposability, and the Male Gender Role tying men's value to their usefulness to others.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/25 11:08 PM
3

So, I think you're kinda hitting the problem. Books/Academia are kinda too slow to actually deal with changing social/cultural conditions. Truth is, you're better off with articles and discussions, I think. Much more modern, up-to-date, etc. The problem really is in the epistemology/medium.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/25 11:03 PM
3

That propensity for violence way way way predated any sort of actual broad media.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/25 10:58 PM
10

Stop promoting the idea that men are disposable by using terms like patriarchy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/25 06:50 PM
15

It's pretty simple. The presentation of men as an oppressor class results in increasing views of men as being disposable, and that's the main thing we're pushing back against.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/25 06:01 PM
3

I think that was sarcasm. The argument is that because we're not really seeing that "egotistical man and his slaving wife" as the norm (not to say that it doesn't happen, but it doesn't seem to be the norm right now), the whole idea of a patriarchy is horribly flawed. Maybe you could make the argument that we are currently in a post-patriarchy, but I think even that is suspect.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/10/25 02:47 AM
6

It's probably where the solution to a lot of the gender issues we see today start, trying to find a way to deal with that. Edit: If you want a find a place to start, find the expressions of "Happy Wife, Happy Life" in all its forms and treat it as super reactionary stuff. Give it the ol' Andrew Tate treatment, because it's essentially the same thing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/10/25 02:30 AM
9

I'm not sure it's being insecure, or at least that's not how I see this generally operate. It's more like, the man doesn't have any value outside of what he can provide to the partner, so if he's off with his friends, then he's not available to provide that value. I think culturally we've been building up that particular concept for the last few decades, and it's going to be tough to actually deal with it, if we could even acknowledge it in the first place.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/10/25 01:25 AM
5

I just don't see the political spectrum working that way. I don't think automatically everyone on the left actually is focused on the interests/values of the majority. I've met too many people on the left who are in it for personal power/status to think otherwise.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/10/25 05:36 PM
7

I don't think that's the case. It's pretty easy for me to imagine an ethnocentric non-capitalist regime. Now I guess this leads to other questions....is a central controlled economy that feeds benefits to a managerial class actually right wing....but I don't think this is actually useful. It's why I prefer to view the consolidation of power in terms of an up versus down spectrum, not left vs right.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/10/25 05:16 PM
11

Oh, so when basically bigots were able to deny their own bigotry? Nah. I don't buy that bigotry is explicitly a right-wing tool. Seems unrelated to left-wing vs right-wing economic politics.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/10/25 05:04 PM
13

Yeah, this is much more a thing among modern Progressives who view things through theoretical models of power dynamics and not anything actually solid or fair.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/10/25 04:55 PM
56

My argument remains that the men as oppressor frame has served to actually increase the severity of the Male Gender Role.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/10/25 07:08 PM
6

Male Disposability IS the actual root cause.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/10/25 03:27 AM
7

The problem is that there's no push back against these ideas. People will talk about Patriarchy or Male Privilege or whatever, and not be called out for their hateful bigotry. No guardrails to protect vulnerable people. Nobody says, yeah, that doesn't apply to you. Like I said, it's not one person. It's a society/culture promoting the idea that ultimately you're disposable.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/10/25 02:34 AM
7

I'm in my mid-40's, so I grew up way before the internet. And I had teachers telling me that I was less worthy as a male when I was in school. It's not just social media, unfortunately. Getting the men as disposable monsters stuff out of our society, which I think is a big part of a lot of these problems, is a lot more than just doomscrolling.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/10/25 02:14 AM
14

I think the point is that bitching about feminism on the internet does literally nothing to fix any of the problems you're talking abut. Does it do nothing? I would argue that if successful, pushing back against the Oppressor/Oppressed Dichotomy and having it seen as essentially a form of bigotry would do a great deal towards actually addressing the issues that men face. It would mean that men wouldn't be excluded materially. At the very least, I'd argue that dichotomy is the lock on the door to…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/10/25 02:09 AM
6

A better way of putting it is that gender norms were essentially formed organically stemming from materialist conditions. That's not to say that we can't or shouldn't change them....it's obvious that those materialist conditions have changed dramatically...but nobody was twirling their mustache designing this system. People were just acting in their own best interest, which in the vast majority of cases was just survival.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/09/25 05:05 PM
1

There was an article in the Guardian talking about the must-read feminist books. I don't even think that book made the list. They had a book by Roxanne Gay, and Butler's Gender Panic. But everything else was before basically I was born. And I'm in my 40's. It really is a hidebound intellectual culture, increasingly out of date. I'll just state where we start. The idea that the demand for men to perform the Male Gender Role and men's ability to perform the Male Gender Role are things moving in op…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/09/25 03:45 PM
36

Yup. These people are pushing Male disposability something fierce. How do you get young men to actually see themselves as disposable? That's what they're asking.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/09/25 03:09 PM
6

The reality is that we're looking at a self-worth crisis more than anything. The cost of working to teach men that they are disposable. Lack of self-worth results in social anxiety, and that's the issue more than anything else.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/09/25 10:09 PM
3

Well, it's not capitalism per se. That's one of my big things, is that I think if you don't deal with Statusism you essentially "speedrun" to the central tyrants form of post-capitalism, right past the worker control phase. It's why this issue is so important. And there's a reason I call intersectionality dollar store egalitarianism. It's hollow, shallow. It leaves out things like status and class. And that's a feature. The bigger part of the problem, if I'm going to look at this hegemonic, stat…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/09/25 10:40 AM
3

Your idea of a hegemonic culture built on “desiring function” and “desiring status” is interesting to me, but before I form a response I wonder if you could clarify further, for fear I take a position that puts worlds in your mouth. So, I basically think there's an important spectrum we're not talking about, and that is materialism, in the Marxist sense, versus some sort of Statusism. This is actually a really bloody important spectrum, if you think about it. Because we're talking about your wel…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/09/25 11:24 PM
5

Just want to throw a thumbs up. I'd personally add a few more classifications, but I think when you're starting with a significant different number of types of whatever classification you're doing, it starts getting more detailed and nuanced. What I would argue, and you probably agree, is that those different types of men will have different interactions with the Male Gender Role entirely. I think the other thing is that I think "Hegemonic Masculinity" fits into a larger Hegemonic culture. The w…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/09/25 01:57 PM
5

I would say "caveman mode". Brute forcing things as the only option , being it the office printer or a stuck part, or intimidating others. Or maybe something like "Happy Wife, Happy Life" which turns men into doormats. Honestly tho, I'd actually argue we actually have a massive Internalized Misandry crisis on our hands. Years of telling boys that they are less deserving, less valuable is coming home to roost. Like we are facing a straight up mental health crisis.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/09/25 12:12 AM
6

I would use the term systematic when talking about legal processes, but that's just me. Systemic means close enough to universal as it should be considered as such, and is largely meant for talking about things like society and culture. The problem isn't men. The problem is the desire for status and power, period. Trying to put this on men is a distraction from this larger issue. It's just as bad when women are trying to do the same thing. Now let me be clear, you can make an argument that there…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/09/25 05:52 PM
6

One of the core parts of feminist theory and culture is that intent doesn't matter, only impact. What I'd actually argue is that society is so incredibly diverse and multi-faceted that any attempt to simplify this is going to reinforce these stereotypes. I grew up in a very....hostile to meb environment to say the least. My father is neurodivergent and struggled to not be run over, I was constantly told in school and in society that as a man I'm lesser, that I'm an abuser, disposable, worthless.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/09/25 04:56 PM
11

It doesn't matter what people mean, to be frank. Intent isn't magic. It comes across as incredibly dehumanizing and reinforces traditional gender norms and structure. You can't just assume, well they are the good guys so you have to look at everything they do through the most positive light. And if we're going to break down gender roles, the response to claims that people find this rhetoric offensive and harmful isn't to tell them to suck it up, it's to apologize, make amends and actually change…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/09/25 03:37 PM
15

Honestly the tribalism verging on religious fervor is a real problem. I'll be honest, if you think what the person above said is a good point...and I agree it is, if we're going to address the harmful nature of the Male Gender Role....then frankly, some part of it IS going to be blaming women more than we currently are, at least on the left side of things. It's going to be acknowledging women's agency, influence and power. And yes, it's going to be pointing out where feminism, especially that su…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 09:05 PM
16

That's just people escaping accountability. Most of TERF-dom, unfortunately, was born of the pop-academic Feminism of the late 00's and 10's. (As an older person, I can actually say that this stuff was MUCH more fringe at one point). TERF-dom makes a lot more sense if you look at it through the lens of men as oppressor and a desire for control and dominance as primary motives for men. As someone who leans towards Trans rights (it's complicated...I don't think we're dealing with a singular phenom…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 08:40 PM
14

I'm curious what you envision internalized misogyny looks like, vs what does toxic femininity looks like If I were to define Toxic Femininity, I would define it as external pressure to uphold the Female Gender Role to an unhealthy degree. Same way I would define Toxic Masculinity. So an example of Toxic Femininity, would be for example maintaining unrealistic cleanliness standards in order to compete with other women in your circles. And before people say this is a strawman, I actually think it'…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 08:31 PM
17

You really don't. I think it's apples and oranges. Saying that society has certain expectations of men and women doesn't mean that all people are equipped or willing to live up to those expectations. Again, it's the difference between starting with a focus on power and starting with a focus on responsibility.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 06:09 PM
1

Not all men are brought up the same. I do think that some boys are brought up in a "Patriarchal" environment for lack of a better term, and some men are brought up differently. I was brought up in a matriarchal, anti-masculinity environment.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:32 PM
23

Don't you see how this actually serves to uphold and reinforce stereotypes? Now, I think you can make a model based around the Male Gender Role, about toxic responsibilities and pressures, not power and control.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:29 PM
9

I think looking at things that way is a huge privilege not all of us share. Maybe not even a good privilege at that. Just because you don't like what it means when you put these ideas into practice doesn't mean that the ideas mean something entirely different. I think it puts everything into this horrible toxic donut hole that makes everything a fight for power to not be looked at under that lens. Essentially, that these theories and models themselves are a form of Toxic Masculinity, something t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:25 PM
31

Aggression, violence, hyperconfidence, domineering mentality. And that's the low hanging fruit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:15 PM
22

Sure they do. Do you think there's an ethical way to be an oppressor? I certainly don't. If I was the person that Patriarchy theory claims that I am, yes, I would consider that evil.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:14 PM
23

Why, if we're basically inherently evil like they argue, does it matter if we are hurt? Isn't it our just desserts essentially? If all men are motivated by power, control and dominance as per Patriarchy theory....why would we try and help men rather than destroy them?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:09 PM
34

No, those behaviors are just as bad when women perform them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 05:01 PM
22

Feminism, or I guess Progressivism more broadly that's based upon strict, unidirectional power dynamics. In this case, the idea that men are the Oppressor class and that Women are the oppressed class. That any idea or concept that breaks this monodirectional model is verboten. The egalitarian model (which is what you see here) is one that power can be fluid and dynamic based upon a whole host of other circumstances. And before you mention intersectionality, just to be clear, there's a reason why…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 04:59 PM
73

I think it's something fairly simple, in that the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy is completely incompatable with any concept of men's well-being or worth as individuals. That's my take at least. There's really no ethical way to exist within that Critical Feminist concept of power. The best you can do is try your best to either be disposable enough to maybe be worth it, or frankly you go full Toxic Masculinity to try and garner enough status and power as to not have this lens actually applied to y…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/25 04:34 PM
5

You can gender bend if you have enough status. To me that's the problem, because we live in a world increasingly stratified based upon status. Different rules for different people. You mentioned music, and I think one of the big issues I have is that so much modern music is about and relies upon this status. And because of that, I find it highly off-putting. Doesn't matter if it's made by a man or a woman. In fact, I find myself listening to music overwhelmingly made by women...but that comes fr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/09/25 01:47 PM
20

Academia is an institution designed to learn the Truths and Knowledge of the world we live in. But what I would argue (and I think is objectively correct) is that when it comes to the human experience, of social systems, there's no such thing. There's too much complexity, too much nuance, too much variance. And that's not considering how things change over time. It's the wrong methodology, the wrong epistemology. The question really should be how do you build a better toolbox to more accurately …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/09/25 12:20 PM
23

Women get hit with this as well, just to a lesser extent. Like I say, the academic elements within feminism and modern cultural Progressivism are actually problematic and a net negative, because it encourages or even demands this type of objectification.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/09/25 10:28 AM
29

The problem, and why it's a hard sell, is that if not all guys are dude bros then it means that socialization isn't universal.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/09/25 04:53 AM
87

Personally I think it's a mental health crisis. To put it bluntly, trying to tear down masculinity without any care for the already vulnerable has pushed said vulnerable people to unhealthy levels. And this whole thing is an effort to deny any sort of accountability for this effect.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/09/25 01:16 AM
11

Well, the whole thing is a debate on if trans women should be held to the same standard of universal socialization as men are. Basically if transwomen get to get hit with the proverbial hammer of shame or not. I'll be honest, I think ultimately this is a losing battle for trans people and their supporters. Not that I think this is a good thing, but the idea that this one section should be recognized as an exception feels to me to be a doomed argument. The proper argument is to dump that before m…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/09/25 03:09 PM
24

Society just leaves us feeling like we don't belong anywhere. I feel like this is where, if we're going to get anywhere, the message needs to be harder than this. Like, it's not even that society is leaving us feeling that way, it's more like we've actively been trying to make men feel like we don't belong anywhere. That it's a feature, not a bug. That essentially we're getting what we wanted, hope we're satisfied. Like, Reeves brings up the double standards, and that's good, but it HAS to be li…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/09/25 01:49 PM
5

I think it's a bit more complicated than that, but the general idea is correct. If I had to define "red pill" it's that the demand for the Male Gender Role hasn't gone away. That's always been what it has been, going way back to the PUA days. Many of us here are "red pilled". The blue pill, to be clear, is that the demand for the Male Gender Role at the very least is greatly diminished. Now, what differentiates all these groups is how you react to this. Some people exploit it, some people want t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/09/25 12:01 PM
5

Which part? I mean the first part....what makes us who we are, is it nurture or nature. Now I'd argue that both play a part, right. Like, innate brain chemistry plays a huge amount in determining so much about us. But so does how we are socialized or our experiences. So it's a mix. But it's not essentialist. We all have different innate characteristics, they're not strictly determined by race or gender for the most part, There's some on-average differences of course, but generally speaking, you …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/09/25 02:55 AM
8

Going to throw this link into the fray. It's not EXACTLY the subject, but I do think it's along the same lines. And please note, while this is studying women, I do not think it's only women. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0190272514521220?journalCode=spqc The TL;DR is that we judge sexuality through the lens of status first and foremost. There's no actual objective standard. Things we see as high-status are generally seen as acceptable and things seen as low-status are seen as not.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/09/25 02:40 AM
2

Maybe. I'm biased by my own experiences, lol. But yeah, just to be clear, I agree with you, one way or the other. The big issue I have is the elevation of social competition. It's where I think the harm actually is. And to make my opinion clear, I think "woke"/Critical models force this social competition, because ultimately they rely on different rules for different people because the ramifications of being objectified in that way, of being viewed through the lens of systemic power, is ultimate…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/09/25 12:47 PM
6

Fwiw, that literally is the big block for me in terms of getting therapy, is that I'm terrified of having the actual coping mechanisms I have in place pulled out from under me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/09/25 10:21 AM
1

I think you way underestimate how that modern Progressive politics culture, I.E woke is essentially a vehicle for the managerial class and their corporate bullshit. These things are not unrelated. For me, it was the reaction to the Damore memo at Google that really solidified it. The whole thing felt like so much managerial butt-kissing. No, the problem can't be systematic policies put in place by the managers, the problem has to be those misogynistic geeks in the trenches.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/09/25 10:17 AM
5

To put it simply, equality is good, bashing people is not.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/09/25 10:10 AM
2

I think the important bit is that this is one's own personal experience. This is how I was socialized, or this is how I saw this person to be socialized, is how these discussions should be framed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/09/25 10:08 AM
10

Kayfabe is the real problem here, the division of everything into just good guys and bad guys and that's it. You can have different words but it won't matter, because people will ignore it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/09/25 10:04 AM
3

Yeah I've seen a lot of his stuff. Terrible person. But I would argue that being a hypocrite means that you don't actually believe what you say. That your actual beliefs are defined by your behaviors and actions, not what you say. But I don't think that's the issue. Let's assume he's right and we do live in a Patriarchy. The question is how can we normalize men divesting power and taking up less space. The big issue I have with this sort of hypocrisy, is that as someone in the past....and still …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 09:40 PM
6

See that's the thing, is that these things are on spectrums, right, none of it is black or white. When it comes up nature vs nurture, I'll be blunt, I'm fairly neutral. I think both play significant roles. However, I'm also very much an individualist and reject these essentialist models. But yeah, what you're saying lines up with my experience. The very most essentialist people I've met tend to be on the sociological side. Nobody ever talks about it. I actually believe it's an epistemology issue…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 09:18 PM
9

The idea of universal socialization was always every bit as much essentialist as the biological kind.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 07:53 PM
4

Where's the shame? The guilt? He advertises himself as a professor, but also advocates for theories and ideas which makes that stolen from actual people. Has he made amends? Quit his job and made way? Closed his social media account? No. It's all hypocritical, sociopathic blather. I understand that if he's right, I'm a horrible person who is completely expendable and disposable and there's no way for me to ethically exist as an Oppressor. So where exactly is he internalizing that for himself?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 05:43 PM
1

So I think thats the thing, as someone who has internalized these ideas in the past, turning down jobs and promotions, socially isolating myself, etc ultimately the problem comes down to making yourself not an exception and holding yourself to the same ideas. Accepting that you're actually the patriarch is a tough sell. It's something people want to push onto the other. That's where it all breaks down, and it simply is unable to affect real change. The way I put it is Patriarchy theory is very m…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 05:34 PM
8

Just to add on to that, if I see identitarian themes, that's actually a pretty big hint that it's going to be a bloated, overly managed mess that just gets in the way of the actual creatives.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 05:01 PM
1

I actually think that's a fair argument. If that's how people used it, I wouldn't have a problem, with a caveat. That caveat being that properly labeled sponsored streams and videos are fine, really, in the gaming sphere. Get that bag. I just don't like how it's subjective and weaponized rather than anything objective. And instead of being "take this with a grain of salt", it's more "your beliefs and values are not legitimate and authentic". That's what I don't like one bit. Especially on the cu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 04:56 PM
3

What I would say is that by using the term Patriarchy rather than say Kyriarchy, at the end of the day we essentially keep on punishing the men who are disproportionately hurt by it, while the actual elite, the managerial class gets to largely skate by. The actual way I'd put it is that men are overly rewarded for performing the Male Gender Role and are overly punished for failing it. But this changes the frame away from one based around power and control to one based around responsibility and i…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 04:39 PM
12

Yeah. There's a lot of content out there that promotes the idea of male disposability and if you're not willing to at least say that content is wrong, what the hell are you doing? The whole emotional labor/man keeping thing is a good example. And I'll be blunt, I really do believe that male disposability actually serves to promote harmful forms of masculinity. Because you have to fight so hard to get out of the swamp, to have some value and that leads to problems all over the place.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 02:02 PM
25

Yeah. If you even think about breaking the Oppressor/oppressed dichotomy you're suddenly an awful person....but we can't actually make any broad changes unless we challenge that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 12:19 PM
7

Honestly "grifting" for the most part is such an unhealthy way of looking at things, and I wish we could just stop using that term. So much it's just people saying that there's no way they could have an authentic experience or opinion different from theirs, so it must be fake and for the money. Even if there are actual grifters out there, it's way overused and again, I think it promotes bad cultural ways of thinking.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 10:08 AM
19

Patriarchy theory itself is a form of reductionism. Especially if you have the belief that it's universal. In an ideal world, we'd be looking at the patriarchal upbringing (as I think that's where it's most salient) next to the matriarchal upbringing, the classist upbringing, the destructive upbringing, etc. as all ways that social scripts are imprinted on us during our youth. But the important bit is an understanding that it's not all the same social script. This, in my opinion is one of the bi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 10:04 AM
13

Not going to lie, before he crashed I actually enjoyed a bunch of conversations between Peterson and people who are able to reign him in. (Eric Weinstein is a name that comes to mind). I still think he's a paranoid individual, to be clear, and always has been (although I suspect that it's more "well-earned" so to speak, more trauma based, than we give it credit for) but still. I found his conversations interesting with the right partner.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 02:05 AM
54

Oh. The guy she's responding to is everything I hate about that Progressive Feminist culture. This is a guy who is going around waving his status and place in the hierarchy in everyone's face, zero remorse, just all arrogant and holier than thou. Like to actually be seen as a human being I have to actually be a professor, huh? I have to have professional status? That by your own logic and theory is entirely 100% undeserved? I talk about how the fact that these ideas are not internalized and actu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/25 01:54 AM
1

Not really? It's more in line with Clinton and NAFTA, at least in the American sense. Now I'll be honest, maybe these things fit into a coherent whole, but if we're going to talk about it in the context of say, America, Canada and Europe, it's something else entirely. But it was never sold as austerity in these countries, in the global north.I could see how austerity was needed in these other countries, like South America, as a way to hold down wages and working conditions there, but yeah, that …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/09/25 05:50 PM
3

Not to accuse that comedian of any sort of plagiarism, but I believe this was a bit that the GOAT George Carlin has way back when. That America had an appreciation for the "I'm full of shit and how about that" mentality.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/09/25 03:54 PM
3

Honestly, historically I'd categorize Joe Biden as an example of that centrist authoritarian/identitarian politician. But there's been very much a wing of the Democratic party that's been there over the years. And I'm not American to be clear, I'm Canadian, and I'd 100% put the current Liberal party into that centrist, identitarian/authoritarian place.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/09/25 03:50 PM
2

So as someone who for a long time has been a policy wonk, Neoliberalism is actually more in line with how I defined it in theory. The austerity is a failure of Neoliberalism, not Neoliberalism itself. That we have a hard time helping those we feel "deserved it", means relying on government programs is going to be very difficult. But yeah, back in the day, when people argue for Neoliberal theories like free trade and off-shoring, it always came with the idea of income supports and retraining. I'm…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/09/25 03:46 PM
3

The problem is that Neo- Progressivism isn't better. That is, if we define Neoliberalism as the hollowing out of the working class with the idea that government programs will make up for this, then the idea that the current members of dominant identities have to make up for historical wrongs with the idea that government programs will make up for this, is wrong in pretty much the exact same ways.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/09/25 03:20 PM
5

It's not left vs right, it's up vs down. Social structures that are based on hierarchy are on the up. And that can be on the left, on the right, and in the middle. We only think that way because traditionally, the normalized political spectrum occupied a line that went from the bottom left to the top right....but that's different now. And yeah, the bottom right does exist as well, to be clear, although it really doesn't have representation either. The end result, what we see, is a culture that b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/09/25 03:13 PM
3

One of the things is that my social anxiety makes me come across, for lack of a better term as very "normie coded". I could never behave in that way that I see. And like...I'm very pro-LGBT and pro-kink and am Poly myself, but my social anxiety means that I have to "behave" myself and watch what I say and do that makes me stand out in a negative way in those environments.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 05:58 PM
8

Try to remember next to nobody actually believes in Patriarchy theory. It's a weaponized concept that comes from protecting other forms of power, privilege and bias.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 05:50 PM
2

Sure there's only so much people can do, but we're not even trying. We're not normalizing the shame, the guilt and the self-hate that comes from taking these models of power and applying them to yourself. Instead, we're rewarding the arrogant. And we're certainly not presenting them as dangerous. Again, it's those that are living the message who are blamed for all the ills in the world. This is the problem. Nobody actually wants to be looked at under this lens, and it's so punishing, socially an…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 05:44 PM
13

It's not even center left or right. I don't want any part of the authoritarian, identitarian center either.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 04:57 PM
1

I haven't. I'll be honest, I'm actually sympathetic to anarcho-socialism, I just don't see how it works outside outside of proving the superiority of co-op enterprise., which is very bleak looking right now. But that's because there's a lot of authoritarians hiding behind that label, unfortunately.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 04:55 PM
8

It's a whole host of things. Like, if I could describe how I see the current landscape, in terms of men, is that I think men are overly rewarded for performing the Male Gender Role and overly punished for failing at it. But realistically, that means that all those maladaptive traits, lack of confidence, self-esteem, assertiveness, etc. have to be induced into the intersectional matrix. The problem is overwhelmingly overly confident, arrogant assertive men who have the tools to perform the Male G…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 04:43 PM
4

The socialist revolution. Similar to the French Revolution where the oppressors faced the guillotine.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 04:22 PM
8

The framework of the Patriarchy and the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy to be clear. Those things are joined at the hip, to be clear. And it's "not on them". There is zero space in academic feminism to acknowledge other facets of power, privilege and bias. There's a reason why Intersectionality is limited to a very small collection of identities framed in a strict monodirectional sense. I grew up in a very..... matriarchal?.... environment, always told to be smaller, to be less then because I'm ma…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 04:15 PM
7

Let me be blunt. I don't expect to survive the revolution. That's what I have to contribute. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I do.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 04:03 PM
4

Why do you think that individuals are not part of a social structure and it doesn't apply to them? When you're making the argument, for example, that given a choice between a male and a female candidate, the former will always be chosen, why does that not apply to individuals? The actual problem is one of scale, of epistemology. By focusing on this vague social structure rather than the complexity of individual experiences, that's the outcome.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 03:57 PM
9

Ideally we'd learn to view that entire framework as bigoted nonsense that serves to protect the bosses, but that's neither here nor there. (Seriously why are not MBA programs on the radar?) Get out of your head that there's actually a healthy way to address "Patriarchy". In reality it looks like men pushing back against social norms in self-destructive ways. Because the gendered nature of that term puts it all on us. Again, ideally we'd replace patriarchy with kyriarchy. But that's not even an o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 03:48 PM
11

Do we all have something to contribute? Again, if those theories and models are correct, and I am an oppressor, do I have something to contribute? Probably not. Especially as someone with a lot of other negatives (like being neurodivergent). The whole framework is toxic if you actually apply it to yourself. And if you're not applying it to yourself/encouraging people to do so, I don't see the point in the first place. The whole point is getting men to believe that we deserve it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 02:37 PM
6

See, I take the opposite viewpoint. Look at how these ideas can be applied on an individual level and then go from there. If we're not happy or comfortable with how these ideas are applied at an individual level, then they need to be fundamentally changed. Maybe they need proper safeguards or more nuance and detail. Maybe it's the wrong perspective entirely. But yeah. Patriarchy does mean that men are inherently evil, at least in my definition of what evil is. Hoarding of power is certainly some…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 02:15 PM
28

South of center politics, as I call it, basically has no representation right now. I'm Canadian, more parties, more options, and I'm still an orphan because there are zero south of center options.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 01:59 PM
14

The problem is that if men accept that we're inherently evil and there's no ethical way for us to exist, as the concept of patriarchy really is.....where does that get us? That's the problem, is that as someone who grew up doing that, if you actually learn to view yourself through the lens of systemic power, to make yourself smaller, to understand yourself as expendable, as disposable, there's no actual value or worth that comes with this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 01:54 PM
7

There's a lot of non Right Wing content out there that recognizes the demand for the Male Gender Role, the problem is that kayfabe makes us put things in these narrow boxes left wing and right wing. So if you're not in this narrow concept of what left wing is, you're automatically on the right.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 01:45 PM
14

So, I think the difference is between a positive statement, I.E what is, and a normative statement, what should be. Red Pill at its core is a positive statement...the idea that our society still has a traditionalist, reactionary view of men and masculinity, that the Male Gender Role is still very much in effect. And there's very little interest in changing this. Politics itself is a normative statement, what do you think should be. One could absolutely desire an equal, egalitarian world while at…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 01:34 PM
31

Redpill does not automatically mean right wing. Now, I think men are moving to the right, but I actually think this outside of that process somewhat, or there's another part for it. Modern Progressive Feminism doesn't tackle the Male Gender Role, at least not on the demand side. By viewing this as a sole pathology on men, it creates a situation where the social and cultural incentives never really change. The focus on this here is being the provider. And being the provider, when we're talking in…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/09/25 12:13 PM
2

Just going to give my own two cents here. The whole thing comes down to one idea. Which men? Now, if I would describe the big problem, I'd say that there's a very real issue with men who are socialized to be domineering, entitled, exploitative, etc. For lack of a better term, let's call that patriarchal. But here's the problem. Not all men are socialized in that way. In fact, more and more men are socialized to be the exact opposite. However, my beef with academic feminism (I think non-academic,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/08/25 11:36 PM
12

For me, the big coping mechanism is that very few people actually believe this stuff, that it's more of a tribalistic and classist weapon used to bully and abuse the out-group.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/08/25 06:44 PM
6

I'm more and more thinking that Male expendablity/disposability are at the root of everything. And yeah, misandry plays a big role in that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/08/25 05:48 PM
6

My own personal feeling is that this is particularly awful because a lot of feminist theory should make men less secure. Putting your own life under the lens of systemic power and historical inequality should give you a pretty nasty case of imposter syndrome.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/08/25 11:42 AM
2

I think the best way to put it is that the entire concept of this theory at its core is objectification. And not the innocent, playful kind, the hurtful, destructive kind. Even the good stuff, I guess, is dependent on not actually applying these models. That's where I really stand, in that these theories and models at its core are virtue signals/luxury beliefs. Edit: Just to be clear, what I think the real problem is, is academia itself. That it's a corrupting influence. People want the social s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/08/25 04:08 PM
1

I'm someone who has lived that life before. I've turned down jobs, I socially isolated myself, I tried my best to make myself smaller. Even if I assume you're right, and I learn to accept that I'm really deserving of nothing in this world due to systemic power. You still have to deal with the social stigma against that which comes with actually taking accountability. Men can't do this shit on our own. That's straight up maladaptive toxic masculinity. If you want us to abandon our own sense of we…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/08/25 02:49 AM
2

It's not just men that have to change. I would argue that the environment hasn't actually changed in any sort of liberatory sense for men...the old restrictions, rules and expectations are still there....it's just that more, often contradictory expectations have been put on top of that. There's no liberation or freedom in the assigned role as Oppressor, only Disposability.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/08/25 11:19 PM
-7

Yeah, there's a reason why I think the term maladaptive masculinity is better. Because it gets away from these old, reactionary ideas that are still broadly propagated. And it makes clear that the problem isn't the lack of sex, it's the internalizing of shame and guilt in a society that simply wasn't ready for men to actually start going that path, to actively reject the Male Gender Role and its enabling traits.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/08/25 04:13 PM
6

Yeah that's the way I see this as well. The ultimate end result of this stuff is actually little different from the far-right Manosphere stuff. You need to climb out of the proverbial swamp, you have to work hard and be unhealthy to get enough value and status to avoid the (not so proverbial in this case) guillotine.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/08/25 11:36 AM
1

I think the problem is different people are going to react to these ideas differently. Someone with high confidence and self-esteem is going to react entirely different to these ideas than someone with low confidence and self-esteem. I'll be honest, the idea of not applying these ideas to myself first and foremost is unthinkable to me. I'm not capable of doing it. That's why I said that it really creates a situation where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. But ultimately, I really do b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/08/25 11:26 PM
6

Yup. Which is super important when talking about this stuff because the human experience isn't a static system.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/08/25 02:03 PM
12

But what if it goes the other way? I'm someone that developed that "critical perspective", or at least it was taught to me, and I'll be blunt, I didn't have the self-esteem to weaponize it against the other. So I applied it inwards. I turned down jobs, I socially isolated myself, because this is what the critical perspective told me. As a man I'm simply not worthy and I make other people unhappy with my mere presence. This stuff is essentially just testing for self-worth and self-esteem, and jus…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/08/25 12:20 PM
11

Yeah, ultimately it's an issue with epistemology more than anything. Being locked down by theory and ideology means you lack the ability to deal with the vast complexity of individual circumstance and changes over time. And I think I've come to a conclusion, unless you're willing to dump the men as oppressor frame entirely, I have no time for you. Because the other side of that men as oppressor frame coin is men as disposable. When you argue for one, you argue for the other.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/08/25 11:10 AM
5

This. Is it going to be able to deal with the pressure being put on men to give up the "privilege" and power that they might not have as individuals, or is it going to dump gas on that particular fire? Is it going to be the type of reform that's only useful for sanding the edges off of the more masculine?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/08/25 01:52 PM
7

I think this is one of the big struggles, to be honest. I'm not saying it's good when women are killed or anything like that. But I do think when people essentially argue that zero-tolerance should be given for the deaths of certain groups, I don't think that's actually a good look politically. I do think it comes across as a demand for superiority. It's not limited to gender issues either, to be clear. But how to make that argument without it coming across as grossly misogynistic?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/07/25 02:38 AM
6

I mean it's always been bootstraps. The messaging has always been to get men to abandon the Male Gender Role and then mock/shame/look down upon them for actually doing it. The Male Gender Role IS the bulk of the problem here. But it can't all be on men to actually change it. I'd actually argue we need to become a less Status-based society and a more Materialist-based society (in the Marxist sense, although I do have criticisms of Marxism itself), and that's how you actually fundamentally alter t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/07/25 02:33 AM
1

I can understand that, but that one thing really does flavor my whole view of the show. OK, so the main character is an egotistical nightmare, to me. Everything to me gets framed through that perspective.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/07/25 02:34 AM
0

See, the thing is, for me, if it was positive masculinity, he would have said, no thank you the second he saw it was Futbol and not American Football because he knows he doesn't know shit about the subject and gone back to America. Everything past that is based on a level of arrogance and hyperconfidence I really find off-putting.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/07/25 02:14 AM
8

That would break the Oppressor/Oppressed Gender Dichotomy. Can't have that. Then we'd have to have a discussion of these topics in more detail, and it would bring in more facets of power, privilege and bias.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/07/25 02:10 AM
39

It's not fear mongering. I'd argue feminist theory is written for people with certain ways of thinking, people with a more theorizing, externalizing mindset. Essentially it's a super secret decoder ring that you're not actually supposed to take these ideas seriously and not internalize and actualize them. And there's no effort to prevent that either. It's just assumed everyone is like them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/07/25 01:33 PM
0

The expectations of the Male Gender Role and men's ability, both systematically and culturally, to perform the Male Gender Role are moving in opposite directions. This creates a lot of opportunity to actually attract votes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/07/25 04:06 AM
11

This is a very good rundown, but I want to add one thing to it. The big complaint coming from that community is that being essentially emasculated isn't coming with the social status/value that they were basically told would happen. It's why I actually consider it a sort of maladaptive masculinity more than anything. And this isn't actually to blame those people. I think that the "one size fits all" mentality towards changing the socialization of boys and men has done a ton of harm. Where it get…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/07/25 10:41 AM
1

The thing is, at the very least, we need an understanding that the generalizations about men that came out of academia were wrong. Both factually and morally. Going to the above poster, I really do think one of the big issues is that because it's assumed that men lack empathy, the idea of how men with higher amounts of empathy will react to these messages was entirely lost. Same thing with low amounts of confidence and self-esteem. My argument has always been that these ideas are about "sanding …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/25 04:16 PM
10

I'd say Boondocks is male- centered, or at least it was. Did they make a new series? But yeah, there's a been a trend in Western animation to focus on more shows for girls than boys. Now it's unclear as to why, if it's the CalArts effect, (most animators coming out of a single program), if the market just isn't there because of anime or whatever.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/06/25 02:27 PM
24

Yup. Ironically, I'd argue the double masking that men are encouraged to do (only express validating emotions) is actually emotional labor in the original context, or something very close to it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/06/25 03:06 PM
28

So as someone who avoided that just because of luck, the problem is the maladaptive socialization that comes from a "one size fits all" mentality. The assumption is that all men are socialized into a domineering personality and have to be cured of that screws with men who have not been socialized that way..... especially those that are at the other end of the spectrum. It's not blaming women to acknowledge the epistemological issues with modern gender activism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/06/25 12:16 PM
49

I actually think that has much bigger consequences outside just dating. It's one of the things that really reinforces the Male Gender Role overall. Because if you strip away that role, what you have left are the traits that make up a good friend. I understand it's a bit more complicated than that, but influencers who treat it like a war crime, as you mentioned, I really do think, are sending out a Red Pilling message. And yes, this includes feminists who are justifying to their audience why thei…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/06/25 10:38 AM
6

As long as under the model women are subservient to men, it's always going to remove women's agency from the discussion, so ultimately what you're left with is the same old patriarchal model which is deeply misandrist. Personally I think a materialist model based around the responsibilities placed on men and women due to environmental factors makes a hell of a lot more sense. If I had to describe the actual issue, I'd say that men are overly rewarded for performing the Male Gender Role and overl…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/06/25 03:08 PM
2

Yeah no. Good men, actually good men will take these ideas and apply them to themselves in a critical fashion. They won't just use them to bully the out-group, the other. They'll start close to home. If power dynamics are systemic, they'll view their own lives through that lens. They'll understand that in such a society, they don't deserve their jobs, their relationships, nothing. If patriarchy is real, at least the motives surrounding male hoarding of power as a class, there's no ethical way fo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/06/25 11:04 AM
17

The modern Progressive culture (the stuff that's formed over the last decade or so) has almost a Calvinist view on this stuff, based on that culture forming around protecting various forms of social/status power dynamics and hierarchy. It almost exclusively punches down, putting most of the blame, or at least a desire to, on people who haven't benefited or are left behind by current systems. It wants to see people who disagree with them as losers or Incels. The problem is that if their theories …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/25 01:45 PM
7

It either feeds the ego or destroys it. Neither is a good outcome.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/06/25 09:44 AM
28

Ultimately thats the problem. Because there's no impetus to apply these ideas to themselves or the people they care about, there's no cost to the ideas, so there's no limit to how extreme they can be. I'll be blunt, under the concept of patriarchy there's no way men can ethically exist in the world. Because of the assumed projection of power, everything you can ever be or have is ultimately suspect. But there's no consideration or connection to what this actually means when put into practice.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/06/25 04:52 PM
35

Yeah, it's my argument that it's actually a self-esteem/confidence crisis and that the systemic misandry plays a big role in building this, including feminist theory/rhetoric. I think we should be seeing confidence as a bit of a privilege in and of itself, not in a negative sense, but in a way where we need to be actively protective and helping of people who are low in those things. I'm not saying that we should keep the misandry, to be clear, but if we/they do ( I'm largely putting this on acad…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/05/25 04:09 PM
8

Yup. Most of that stuff was shut down way before Kevin Samuels (forget Andrew Tate.. I'm being blunt and going right to the source) decided to challenge/exploit influencer culture. That's where the current wave of the Red Pill, as I call it, started. My own belief is that any discussion of men's rights demands distinctions made between which men have power and which men don't, and there's a whole laundry list of reasons why people absolutely do not want to have that conversation. Most of which l…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/05/25 01:16 AM
5

It's not even that women's role in it mattered. It's strictly just materialism. That's it. What allowed your family/city/state to survive/thrive? In pre-industrial days, it was what we saw. That doesn't mean that we don't have to change that as material conditions change. But the idea that it's all just male power and dominance is very much holding back equality.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/05/25 01:13 AM
4

It's not inconceivable that men could unilaterally change the Male Gender Role, but the cost of that would be so massively high and destructive I don't think it's worth thinking about. It would essentially take 99.9% of men completely abandoning the Male Gender Role. That number is hyperbole, but it would take an absurdly large number to actually change the culture. It would be so much easier to just acknowledge and try to even lightly change women's role in upholding traditional gender norms.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/05/25 03:18 AM
9

Patriarchy is a term created to protect the upper classes. The proper, non- bigoted term you're looking for is kyriarchy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/05/25 03:09 AM
5

Recall folks, it has been the Patriarchal Realists and the Puritanicals along side with their oligarchical donor bases that have led us to where we are; the per se individualists too. FWIW, I'd actually consider Biden one of the more Patriarchal Realist politicians in DC during his career. I'm not sure how much of it came out during his campaign (I'm not American, and honestly, over the last few years I've tried to tune out of US politics as I think it's just toxic), but he does have a history i…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/25 07:24 PM
10

So....to be clear this isn't a capitalist thing. It really isn't. In fact, socialist or post-capitalism systems often fall apart due to status hierarchies, essentially handing control over to a self-interested managerial class. I think it's important for the left, both in terms of optics/politics, but as well in terms of outcomes, to have a plan for dealing with this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/05/25 02:47 PM
30

The honest truth is that practically all feminist theory is built from and around a culture heavily invested in status hierarchy. The reality is that based on status hierarchy, largely surrounding men's ability to perform the Male Gender Role, men have vastly different experiences, to the point where it might be wrong to say that men as a class have any actual rights or power innately. Feminism, at least in terms of men, is designed to "sand the edges" off the higher status men, not help the low…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/05/25 10:11 AM
3

Id have to disagree. I dont think society has not changed its that certain aspects just still exist. They dont get banished over night. There's not even the PUSH for change however. It's not like the Progressive Sword of Damocles is coming down on people who think that for example, men should be the primary providers. The way i see if, if it causes mental health disparities, which it does for alot of men (not all men ovbs) then applying to yourself if you dont mesh with said traits doesent work …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/25 11:33 PM
3

At the end of the day progressiveness and feminosm are the way forward to point out social issue's, they just need to be improve id say, and the only reason we have come this far in terms of "progressiveness" is due to feminist/progressive notions. Not patriarchal ones. Why does it have to be this binary? Why do I have to pick one of the two? That's the issue I have. I think both Progressivism AND traditionalism are both horribly flawed. I don't buy the motive of Patriarchy. And make no mistake,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/25 09:47 PM
5

its creating "personalities" in men that enable such behaviors. That's one of the problems with looking at everything through that critical, Oppressor vs. Oppressed framework. Because it's not just men that enable these behaviors. And I think that if you leave women out of the solution set, and not just politically, right, there's a tendency to say, well we criticize conservative women as well, but I still think that misses the point...then you're not going to be able to fix the issues that wome…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/25 08:56 PM
4

The problem is that it often goes past the idea of a "construct" being strictly about classification into the territory of our personality traits being predictably constructed, and as such, can be easily and reliably be deconstructed. And remember, if we are just limiting it to classification, I'd argue academic feninism has a lot of hypocrisy there in the first place, doing nothing but this sort of classification. Most people reject this stuff because of the strong social stigma surrounding act…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/25 05:15 PM
7

To a degree yes, but by and large I do think the two issues converge back up when trying to talk about the issues of far-rural communities
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/05/25 05:44 PM
21

All it is, is people who want a more exploitable Male Gender Role.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/25 12:55 PM
3

Think less cops and more two rival gangs. Makes a hell of a lot more sense that way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/25 03:25 AM
5

I think looking at it through tribal dynamics makes more sense. People don't believe that for whatever reason they will have a place in a progressive world, so they go looking for a powerful opposition to it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/25 04:27 PM
7

I think it's something different. I think there's so much pressure in our society to view things in terms of a kayfabe binary that it demands this response.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/25 10:45 AM
17

Yeah, the solution really is breaking the binary, so to speak. That there's alternatives to these two recognized positions. The difficulty is that other positions are not really recognized, and that's super important to some people. Fwiw, those impossible caricatures isn't just the right, I think we have to recognize that's the left as well. I think on the left there's a model of an arrogant, externalizing person who says all the right things but doesn't actually believe them about themselves.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/25 10:42 AM
3

It's certainly disturbing. But like....I'll just say it again. Is this something we can realistically change? Would we do more harm than good to men in trying to actually fight this? Would we be better off with just getting acknowledgement and acceptance of this dynamic and going from there? Of course, I'd change it in a heartbeat if I could. But I feel like it's a very tough go.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/04/25 08:11 PM
0

I would say mass executions are hardly one on one. However, I also think that authoritarianism/hierarchy are just as much social and cultural as they are political.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/25 05:57 PM
-1

I would say that the guillotine is an expression of hierarchy and authoritarianism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/25 05:34 PM
6

I don't think that's true. I see a lot of potential and support for hierarchy on the left as well....the issue with the control the managerial class can have is the big thing I'd argue...we're just so programmed to see things in terms of a liberal left and an authoritarian right it's hard to break out of that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/25 05:09 PM
1

Actually, I believe that if we were to use toxic masculinity, it's about the pressure put on men. Essentially it is the Male Gender Role. More specifically, it's the Male Gender Role combined with a lack of resources to perform it in a healthy way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/25 11:25 AM
1

Toxic femininity is generally the pressure to engage in status conflict.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/25 10:46 AM
7

Essentially pink pill bullshit. That is, women's empowerment through exploiting the Male Gender Role and seeing men as tools for their happiness. The problem is that the system they want to fix actually is the Male Gender Role itself, that thing they're actually defending and exploiting.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/04/25 02:59 AM
5

Yup. The issue is actually recognizing it not as a reactionary thing, but as the result of vulnerable people internalizing and actualizing certain feminist theories and models, due to some bigoted generalizations about men. The reality is that less and less men need their masculinity "taken down a peg". They need different messages. They need reassurance that they are worthy and valued, not oppressors.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/04/25 01:39 PM
7

Here's the comment I left on the video There's a couple of things here. First, I actually agree with the idea that the core issue is the problem of a lost generation or two. That in order to reach equity, there was a desire to control the pipeline in a way that essentially puts most/all the burden on boys/men who are actually more vulnerable. The idea of actually removing the people who benefited from these older structures, because we see socioeconomic decline as this massive tragedy, was never…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/04/25 07:43 PM
5

I think this is an issue that's going to be very difficult to get rid of. Let me be clear, I support Trans rights. However...I think there's actually a very real epistemological issue built into that which kinda has to be dealt with. What the fuck do rights even mean? Especially when we're using the perceived rights and privileges of men as the baseline. Because to be frank, and I'm eventually going to write a top-level, on this, I do not believe men actually have rights and privileges. I think …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/04/25 11:48 AM
7

I've always said that unfortunately the TERFs are destined to win this one. As long as people are reflecting the toxic oppressor/oppressed dichotomy in their activism, the largest marginalized community will always win. The reality is, for the argument that people want the same rights as men, the question is always which men. The men who are sent to die in a war, or the men who are able to wield their status and power to hurt others. Because I'll be blunt. I think Progressive activists want clos…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/04/25 02:53 PM
4

Academia is the root cause. It's why intersectionality isn't actually intersectional. It's just not going to criticize the facets of power, privilege and bias that academia relies on and is frankly selling.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/04/25 12:34 PM
11

Just to add on to this, the difficulty with getting rid of the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy is that it brings a lot of other biases to the forefront. That's the big block. And there's always this desire to punch down in these regards.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/25 06:58 PM
17

I take the stance that activists rarely actually represent the groups that they're fighting for. I think that's the healthiest place to be. But I do think the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy does breed fear. Because the takeaway generally is that the people in the Oppressed side can't be taken to account. Again, I think it's more universal....but I think this issue in particular was born in these ideas. And then you have the TERFs, who to be blunt have been fighting for that power for women for th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/25 01:04 PM
4

Yeah, that's the question I have. My kneejerk, I have no clue, but this is what I suspect, is that we're not talking about one actual phenomenon here. That is, I wouldn't be surprised that a vast majority of the men (to keep with the gendering of this subject) who are attacking and raping women in public have raging insecurities. However, if you're looking at the overall numbers, that's actually a very very small % of the crimes overall. More often, however, we're talking about something between…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/25 02:52 AM
3

Sorry, I don't do the "whataboutism". The whole concept is just way too authoritarian for my tastes, it's basically promoting the idea that there should be different rules and norms for different people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/25 02:44 AM
2

The problem is that X and Y are limited to very carefully cultivated things that don't actually challenge the status quo.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/25 02:42 AM
3

Historically Progressives were the eugenics people so I'm not sure how far I'd go back with it. That said, my understanding is that most of the time, those people would self-identify as liberals, not Progressives. In fact, the Progressive label was fairly fringe until the early 2010's. Progressivism to me, is authoritarian inherently. It's essentially progress at any cost, with the idea that you push said cost onto the out-group, the other.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/25 09:10 PM
8

Just because you have feathers and cluck does not make one a chicken. Identitarian in the sense that people are judged based off characteristics and not as individuals. In the end, I think the result of modern Progressive politics is to add bigotry to the world, not take it away. The Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy, which Progressive culture uses to freeze out discussions of other facets of power, privilege and bias, turns these issues into zero sum games of power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/25 08:51 PM
3

Authoritarian, not right wing. It's very easy to conceive of very left wing movements that fall into the same trap. Actually, I'd argue that it's this authoritarian effect that ends up turning leftist post-capitalism attempts ugly. Politics should at least be viewed on a 2d field rather than a 1d spectrum
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/25 08:35 PM
2

The history of Progressivism has always been identitarian to one end of another. I'd argue that if you reject the identitarian stuff, you're not Progressive, although I don't think people will agree with what that other thing is called. Left-libertarian?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/25 08:28 PM
11

Fwiw, it's not even just this issue. The current authoritarian left simply can't comprehend the existence of an anti-authoritarian left that also opposes them
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/25 08:25 PM
5

The alignment with the PMC is broader than just gender issues, I'm afraid. I've always said that large swaths of the modern left are looking to "speed run" past the pro-worker part of post-capitalism straight to the PMC control part. Note that I'm Canadian. This can be seen very clearly in our most left mainstream party, the NDP. My own belief is that the identitarian politics are a way to cover for this class bias, not something that creates it, if that makes any sense.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/25 11:50 AM
-8

The whole thing really is toxic masculinity, as it revolves around men being stoic and self-sacrificing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/25 04:25 PM
2

I mean for me it's fairly simple. Most of these models come out of academia, and men's advocacy challenges the levers of power that academia uses/sells.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/25 04:21 PM
13

So, I'd argue right now we're seeing a high point of authoritarian mentality, left, right and center. One of the things I'd argue authoritarianism relies upon, is the ability for people to "free" themselves from its expectations via various forms of status. The ability to escape the rules and norms that it seeks to enforce. I actually strongly believe pro-male advocacy directly challenges that. Because it obviously has to rely on creating a distinction between men, that we do not all have the sa…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/25 01:13 PM
13

It is broad, because I'm critiquing an entire epistemology here. It's not going to be narrow. I think the fake-intersectionalism that's more about propping up identity based Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomies is only making things worse. And the truth is, I think that the ability to externalize these ideas to dehumanize the other is a huge privilege. One that I and many others don't have. If you're going to talk about systemic power (note, "systemic" is another one of those epistemologies that I th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/04/25 03:21 AM
11

My argument is that feminism that comes from academia is heavily biased to leave out a lot of the very real facets of power, privilege and bias that are super important in discussing these ideas. Truth is, if you actually want to be intersectional, you should not be using the term patriarchy, you should be using the term Kyriarchy instead. The reality is, that the things we view as rights and privileges for men are extremely context dependent. It really is not all men. Everybody here supports eq…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/04/25 03:01 AM
4

First, I don't think it's all women. To be clear. I know a lot of women who don't view things that way at all. If I were actually to nail it down, I would say that it's strongly status-sensitive women (and men). I would actually go as far as to call the pressure to make women status-sensitive "Toxic Femininity". But yeah. It's not going to change anytime soon. I wish it was! Like I always say, I'm fucking shit at the Male Gender Role. I'm not built for it, physically or emotionally. But....I don…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/25 09:06 PM
12

My own take is that he's broken. That sounds like a rough thing to say. But I mean....I think that's it. He's filled with anti-communist feelings, to a paranoid level. Now, I will say, even though I'm on the left, I'm not a fan of communism either, due to its authoritarian requirements. (I'm more open to anarcho-socialism, although even that's going to require massive cultural and social change that I'm not sure is viable) But he takes it to an unhealthy level. And the thing is....it might not e…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/25 09:00 PM
4

The honest truth is because next to nobody actually believes that stuff. I strongly believe that if it were enforced that people apply these ideas to themselves and the people around them, they would disappear in an instant. People who claim to believe this stuff are not deconstructing the men in their lives, viewing them through the lens of systemic power dynamics. It's just not a thing. The problem is that this is never communicated, so people on the outside see it as an abject threat, which c…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/25 10:31 PM
11

I don't think it's that it's just men, I think it's more the issue is that's what the Male Gender Role has evolved into. Then you put on top of that all that feminist theory that implies that not only do men have no innate value, we actually have a debt to be paid.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/25 09:12 PM
11

I think there's a whole host of reasons this happens but I think much of it boils down to a "Happy Wife Happy Life" mentality we've normalized in society. I know a few people in a situation that seems so niche that to see it repeat is very weird. They have partners with addictions, essentially, to TV, they need to watch it all, and they need them on the couch with them present and paying attention at all times. So them going out with friends messes that up. Now, it's ok when she goes out with fr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/25 07:02 PM
24

Men's friend groups are seen as transitory as the expectation is that they'll have to be gotten rid of once he's in a relationship.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/25 04:41 PM
1

At least in Canada, there's been a lot more "success" getting this sort of thought into actual legislation. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms actually carves out exceptions for equity purposes. The UK is a bit of a different beast. Someone told me why that brand of Feminism was more popular in the UK, but I actually forget what I was told. But it really is. This stuff existed in academia since the 60's 70's, however, I don't think it really broke into the public mind until the early/mid 2010's.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/25 09:03 PM
6

So I'm actually Canadian as well. I'd actually argue that this way of thinking is more prominent in Canada (and the UK for that matter) than it is in the US. But you really do hit the nail on the head, in that nobody cares about policy. I'm a policy wonk myself. Show me a policy that you can implement and will work and I'll support it, more than likely. Like I said, I used to apply a lot of these ideas to myself in a very unhealthy way. What made me stop it was realizing that people didn't actua…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/25 02:50 AM
11

So I appreciate the idea, but I'll agree with some other people here, you're probably not going to be better received because you're a woman on these idea. I think there's a very real negativity against the idea that there's any sort of actual intersectionality for men. I.E. things that make us have more power or less power, largely because it throws into question a lot of other facets of power, privilege and bias. And then you put on top of that the general disdain for men who don't have power/…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/25 09:15 PM
3

The enemy isn't just fascism, it's authoritarianism in all its forms, left, center and right. I strongly argue that these identitarian politics breed authoritarianism because they are so toxic and harmful to internalize and actualize....you need the authoritarianism to hold people to standards you yourself (not you but people like Vaush) are not willing to apply to yourself. It's only a weapon to be used against the other, the out-group. This turns everything into an existential fight for power,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/25 03:44 PM
6

Ultimately, the issue is that we haven't deconstructed women and femininity in the same way we've deconstructed men and masculinity. I'm not actually saying we should, in that I think the process is tremendously unhealthy, but it's something that should be taken into account.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/25 08:44 PM
13

Nope, I say it all the time. Neurodivergent men are more vulnerable to internalizing these ideas in a way that these people claim is not intended. The response I get is that's a you problem. I think people are lying, and they want out-group men to internalize these messages in a way that's self-destructive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/25 03:12 PM
8

The thing is, if the expectations and responsibilities put on men would disappear, this might actually work, but that never happens.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/25 12:55 PM
7

The reality is that there's nothing healthy in the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy for men. And you could make the argument it's not healthy for women either. Until that dichotomy is completely filtered out of language, culture and theory, things are not going to benefit men. Why should they help the oppressors oppress better?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/25 11:54 AM
22

Out-group individual, to be clear. It almost never applies the systemic to in-group individuals. My argument remains if that there was significant pressure to do this, to hold the in-group to the same standards as the out-group, these ideas would fade away to the fringes fast.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/25 08:39 PM
10

Or it needs to undermine the social/cultural pressure for upward mobility. Lifting all ships is a good thing. But....the pressure is status-driven, not materialist. People are not going to settle for a minimum wage increase, they're going to want a path to social advancement. I'm not saying this because I like this....I don't. But I'm saying this because if you want to make a compelling alternative to capitalism, this is a cultural change that has to happen first.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/25 07:08 PM
15

I don't think there's good faith there, in a lot of cases. At least in terms of people who are public about it. People in that position are not doing the work of deconstructing themselves and applying the lens of systemic power to their own circumstances. So very few of them are actually divesting that power, giving up their platforms, their jobs, their influence, etc. So many of them attack and blame insecure men....when again, there's no way under those theories that men should be secure. Don'…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/25 06:53 PM
4

A lot of people supported Bernie in 2016 not because he was to the left, but because he was "south of center", representing that more materialist, non- identitarian PoV. They were pushed out because at some point they came to the conclusion that those south politics were neither viable nor recognized. So a lot of those people moved to the right. I actually believe that the new social Progressivism culture is more anti-south than it is anti- right. If it wasn't, it would accept people who are on …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/25 03:13 PM
6

Don't underestimate the amount of damage that some of the really toxic, misandric theory has done. People are looking at these things through that lens first and foremost, making people trigger-happy to say the least. FWIW I agree with you. Traditionally, the bulk of the fan service in gaming was in the marketing, not the games themselves.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/25 06:37 PM
4

Well, the argument is that western AAA developers are making female characters less attractive in a way they're not doing for male characters, presumably to '"fight the Male gaze". Which...whatever. But honestly I do think there's an issue with Social Progressive culture dominating institutions and the effect it has, where status hierarchy takes center stage. That this can make for worse products/outcomes, not to mention the echo chamber effect as people with different PoVs are pushed out.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/25 06:03 PM
1

I don't think men as oppressor class is actually universal.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/25 11:32 PM
3

This. It's a thing where the devil is in the details, so to speak. The problem isn't feminism per se, the problem is the theory and memeset it's based on. And there's not a singular feminism in that way. But generally versions of feminism that are built around a "men as oppressor" dynamic are entirely incompatible with any concept of helping men with our issues. Because oppressor isn't just a statement of power....it's a motive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/25 07:50 PM
33

One thing I'll say is get it out of your head that social hierarchy is a product of capitalism. If you're going to form a successful, sustainable post-capitalism society, it has to understand the dangers of social hierarchy and actively work to solve it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/25 01:34 PM
4

I actually reject the epistemology of systemic anything. I think it's a bad frame, and destroys any sort of nuance or detail. Patriarchy, to me, is a motive more than anything else. I.E. men hoarding power. I'm not going to say this doesn't exist...but I would argue that it's increasingly rare. More broadly, gender roles formed based upon materialist responsibilities, not any sort of power hoarding.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/02/25 12:56 PM
10

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm going to throw in a caveat. I was one of those people, but I don't have that background. But you wouldn't see me because those beliefs destroyed my sense of self-worth. I made myself as invisible as I could.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/25 06:31 PM
19

It's actually a mental health crisis, I'd argue.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/25 06:27 PM
9

No, it really hasn't tried to dismantle toxic masculinity. Part of it is because it largely doesn't understand toxic masculinity in the first place. It also does not fit...at all...into the models of systemic power that are a core part of modern Progressive culture. To the point where I do think the people who say you shouldn't even use that term because it's just past being redeemable are probably correct, although theoretically I could see how it could be useful. The problem with Toxic Masculi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/02/25 02:05 PM
36

Honestly? I find a lot of social media anti-capitalism dumb. I don't mean that as a slight on anybody here. And that's not saying I'm being defensive of capitalism. But what I see a lot of is people saying that X is caused by capitalism, when instead, it's actually more than likely that X is actually caused by hierarchaly disconnected bureaucratic structures. And yes, Capitialism is often, usually a big example of this. But it's not the ONLY example. I see the same shit in the public sphere, in …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/02/25 10:59 PM
17

Except...I'll be honest, I see a lot of that stuff out of more identitiarian forms of feminism as well. (Running off the idea that feminism isn't a monolith, and I think the identitarian/critical models are vastly different from the more liberal/individualist models) I don't think the issue is left or right, it really is up or down. Do we value men as individuals, or what we can provide?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/02/25 08:51 PM
10

It's status really. And I'll be the first person to acknowledge, that the pressure to play the status game is an experience that tends to be much worse on women (although I do think it gets "passed forward" to men a fair amount as well). It's the idea that everything has to be done right in order to gain that status. The problem is that instead of acknowledging that pressure as toxic and harmful, and finding ways we can change it, a lot of the Pink Pill stuff (I.E. Patriarchal Realism as some ot…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/02/25 03:24 PM
8

Acknowledging the difference in experience and outcomes between high status and low stats men threatens to crack the whole model.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/25 08:53 PM
17

Anything egalitarian will be seen as a challenge to status hierarchies and as such will be presented as an object threat
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/25 04:56 PM
19

The thing is, the men who get hurt the most are the ones that are not traditionally masculine. That's why I say that the men who promote this stuff tend to be reformed dude bros, and generally have skeletons in the closet.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/25 11:38 AM
172

Feminist efforts to reform masculinity have been a huge, maladaptive, destructive mistake. The presentation is that we're all socialized to be these monsters that have to be fixed, but the problem is for a lot of us that moves us to a place where the lack of confidence, self-esteem, assertiveness, etc become real problems and it hinders our lives. And society hasn't changed one bit to value this actual movement, both romantically (socially really as it blocks friendships too) or professionally.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/25 07:22 PM
2

Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean. My own personal belief is the only way to fight that wave of the Red Pill, is by making the argument that the Pink Pill/Female Dating Strategy stuff is both rare and completely unacceptable. People respond to incentives. You can get rid of all the Tates and Co, but as long as the incentives are still there, the messages will return .
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/25 03:18 AM
5

I generally agree with the stuff here, so consider this a "Yes, and". The big part of the picture I personally see get ignored is the Female Dating Strategy/Pink Pill stuff break containment and go pretty viral on social media. This stuff, that advocates for a heightened and expanded Male Gender Role pretty much goes entirely unchallenged. I would argue that one of the big things is that Right wing politics/aesthetics are much more in line with fulfilling a competitive Male Gender Role. The more…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/02/25 01:06 PM
3

I just want to add something more general to this. Because it's on my mind and I want to get it off my chest. I don't feel the class solidarity with the salary class, the managerial class. I don't see them as part of the working class. When I think of these DEI stuff, too often I see it as blaming the working class for the sins and the norms of the managerial class. Instead of blaming the structures, it's the people who are blame. And yes, people say they don't do that but I think that's bs. Tru…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/02/25 04:09 PM
22

I think they are very tightly linked together, again, to protect the other facets of power, privilege and bias. Like, if I had my druthers, to give people a chance, I would take out as much identifying information out of the process as I can. Name, address, where people went to school, even details of work history can pigeonhole someone. I don't think it's difficult. Interviews? They can be written, or you could have someone transcribe them, then the decision makers base it off the transcript. T…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/25 05:32 PM
41

I'm going to be blunt, this way of thinking is something that's just not healthy for me. The idea that I have to come to grips with the idea that I don't deserve the things I have when there's actually no real reason to assume this is totally unhealthy, and to be blunt, I think plays a major role in worsening mental health in men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/25 05:05 PM
48

There's a difference between giving a chance and making up for historical wrongs. That's where I personally draw the line. If you want to make up for historical wrongs, but you're basically putting all the cost of that largely on people just starting to find their way in the world, how is that going to be perceived? And do we have the stomach to cut from the top? To acknowledge that those who have been in an organization have benefited from these structures, and is there a way to hold them accou…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/25 04:51 PM
140

So, criticizing the implementation of these things has always been kind of suicide from the left. I'd actually go as far as to say that's one of the big reasons for Trump's rise. Like, I'm someone who thinks that identitarianism is especially bad if you're leaving in other biases (nepotism, socioeconomic, cultural, etc.). But that generally has people assuming I hate women and minorities.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/25 02:19 PM
80

Yup. The expectation is that men "know our place" and act accordingly. This stuff is terrible for men's mental health and sense of self. To be clear. But it also doesn't actually fix the problem that's being claimed here. There's no actual upside that might potentially balance out the pain it causes men. I'm not saying it's worth it, that men's mental health should be sacrificed for the greater good, but if there was a greater good, if it was actually making an impact and making noticable positi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/01/25 06:00 PM
2

I think people take the stance that advancing the health of men, both structurally and mentally, requires the dismantling of the Oppressor/Oppressed Gender Dichotomy, and that Reeves in defending Feminism is not really an effective vessel for the needed changes to occur. Personally I actually blame academia more than feminism for this. But I don't think that's an easy message to get out to people, and certainly a lot of the efforts to resocialize men have been a disaster.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/25 10:54 PM
2

Materialism is a better explanation for the formation of gender norms than some sort of active conspiracy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/25 10:46 PM
27

This vibes with my own experience. I'm not sure I'd call it strategic. I think at least for me there's a lot of moralistic thought put into it. But yeah. A lot of that is my own experience and something I still struggle with.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/25 08:37 PM
4

One thing I think people are going to need to understand is that if we are going to reach a stable equilibrium while maintaining women's rights and the Male Gender Role to some degree, acknowledgement and gratitude are part of that balance.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/25 06:51 PM
9

I actually blame academia for this as much as anything else. People want their fields to be static models like math or physics, where maybe our understanding of the world changes, but the actual underlying reality is constant. So the idea that if you can quantify privilege, has actually been changing pretty significantly over the last few decades, is just an impossible one to understand. It just doesn't fit their own social politics and sense of self and accomplishment. And put on top of that, m…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/25 06:47 PM
10

There's a lot of structural ideas that need to be pulled down in order to help men. I think that's the reality here. The maybe more controversial bit, is I'd argue is that those same structural issues get in the way of helping women as well.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/25 06:31 PM
16

The big problem with authoritarian/identitarian forms of....anything really, doesn't matter if it's feminism or religion or whatever, is that things tend to be very much based on status hierarchy more than anything. Different rules for different people. This is what allows these memesets to be unrealistically strict. The actual thing you're seeing here, is that people want higher status men to "objectify" but not lower status men. That's the reason for the double standard. I guess that can inclu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/01/25 05:11 PM
21

There's also the authleft to right pipeline, that if I remember correctly, played a big part in forming neoconservative politics. One thing I believe, is something I call vector theory. That is, on a standard 2axis political landscape, people shouldn't be represented by points, they are actually arrows. That is, that it's not only people's political stances, but their preferred direction they'd like things to go. I'll be blunt, my arrow is much more down than left. It's still somewhat on the lef…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/25 09:17 PM
41

I know people don't like the term, and with good reason, but his argument is straight up Toxic Masculinity. He's promoting a self-sacrificing stoicism in the face of social, cultural and institutional pressures, without actually having any desire to confront those pressures in the first place. And expecting people to take individual accountability for these things? I'm going to be a bit pithy. And I don't mean any offense. But thats how you make Incels. And I'm speaking from personal experience …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/25 07:59 PM
29

I mean I'd imagine they're right, but I think it's a partisan, tribalistic view of it. I think the "Men should only express convenient emotions" thing he's pushing is actually worse for men's mental health.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/25 07:48 PM
2

So here's the thing, in both countries I think it's fairly recent, maybe even in the last decade and a half where the left has gone "above center". Certainly authoritarian forms of leftism have always been a thing, tankies exist after all, but largely they've been fringe until as of late.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/25 07:47 PM
78

One of those ex-dudebros who can't see past his own experiences and personality traits to see that we are not all like him. Believe blaming all men excuses him from his own actions.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/25 07:32 PM
3

I think of it in terms of a two-axis landscape. The second axis being authoritarian/identitarian vs. Pluralistic/individualistic. In both the US and Canada, if you are below center in this landscape, towards the pluralistic side, you have no real political representation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/01/25 03:37 PM
25

Yeah, there's a ton of implications and results of the Male Gender Role, and trying to forcibly alter those implications and results without actually changing the underlying set of gender roles and expectations is incredibly toxic and harmful. It's what I call Maladaptive Masculinity. Trying to socialize men in a way that puts them largely at odds with society as a whole.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/01/25 06:07 PM
12

I think largely it's a confidence/self-esteem thing. So where it really starts in reinforcing the confidence/self-esteem/self-worth of young men, or at least stop tearing it down. But outside of that, we are talking about access to 3rd spaces and clubs and activities outside of competitive sports. I don't want to say we need to prioritize boy's access, but we should stop deprioritizing it. Success shouldn't be measured by how many girls are involved.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/01/25 01:32 AM
5

Yeah. My personal opinion is when talking about trans individuals, we are actually talking about multiple parallel phenomena that just are just not the same. There are people for whom it is very much an innate state of being, and there are people that are really socialized into it. And they have their own inherent interests. It's the tucutes as you put it, that are more likely to have unreasonable expectations and demands and any idea of any sort of balance of rights and responsibilities is anat…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/01/25 03:49 PM
5

Yeah, all the anarcha-socialists I've met are very critical of identity politics as a whole. Even though I don't see a way of making it happen, I've always said I tend to really like anarcha-socialists as people. Most identitarians who desire some sort of post-capitalism see themselves living lives of comfort in a bureaucracy that gives them substantial power and control, not doing front-line productive work.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/01/25 06:43 PM
5

The actual issue is the epistemology and culture as a whole. It's not down to any individual political stance or idea. Modern Online Progressivism has really formed around the Oppressor Oppressed dichotomy because that freezes out other facets of power privilege and bias. It prevents us talking about things like the advantages that things like status and connections give you. And at the end of the day, that culture is using its status and connections to avoid being looked at and analyzed by that…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/01/25 01:14 PM
12

There's a lot of class biases in the authoritarian left focused largely on status. That's why there's so often a very real punching down effect at play. In this case however....it is kinda personal. Because I consider myself Incel-adjacent, or I guess more specifically I got absurdly lucky to avoid it. But I share the same maladaptive masculinity. That rejection of masculinity and the Male Gender Role in a way that flames out badly. The lack of support is more of a lack of accountability more th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/01/25 04:55 AM
11

Generally what I see a lot of, and I've had this experience myself talking to people, is that you're not supposed to apply these theories and models to yourself and your own situation. You're not supposed to understand and take accountability for these universal power dynamics and act accordingly....which to be blunt does come with a bunch of guilt and shame by it's very nature. I think this can lead to egotistical and even narcissistic behavior patterns. More so, it can lead to a existential ne…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/01/25 04:37 AM
32

Does this feel like to anybody else like they are trying to blame out-group stuff for in-group things? This guy doesn't strike me as obviously traditionally masculine. The issues he's had with his abuse and how his culture prevents him from talking about it lest he's seen as misogynistic probably plays a huge part of the problem. And my understanding is that there's this huge donut hole in government funding between competitive athletics and DEI initiatives that leave many men without programs t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/01/25 08:20 PM
30

There's also that those dynamics have changed dramatically in the last few decades. And are constantly changing. My own experience is that I actually think more men have actually overcorrected, and that we are actually repressed to an unhealthy degree. So when they are "demanding better", that road only goes one way, and in a lot of cases, in an unhealthy direction.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/01/25 07:23 PM
32

I'll give a bit of a different take on it. Because what I overwhelmingly read in those places is "learn that you're better than the rules". Which to me is massively dangerous all around. Like to me, when people talk about criticizing dangerous ideas that men hold and call them out on it, to me that's a huge one. I'd argue this has a duel negative response, where we are pushing all men away from a healthy middle, pushing to extremes of self-worth and confidence either too high or too low. The oth…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/01/25 06:21 PM
17

So, I'm one of those people, or at least it's something I struggle with. And I'd absolutely say that therapy wasn't helpful to me, and I think it won't be helpful to many people like me. And the reason for that, is that I think the tendency to apply these ideas to yourself first and foremost isn't a "fixable" trait. Nor is it something that needs fixing. What's needed, would be help rooted in frankly, an approach that's critical of modern feminism/progressivism, or at least the details. You can …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/01/25 06:04 PM
7

Patriarchy Theory at its core is a motive. A prescribed, assumed motive, one that is frankly evil and vile. It's largely not true, thankfully, but still, it is a nasty, dehumanizing stereotype. What this results in is a situation where everything is weaponized against the out-group, the other. Including the concept of Male Gaze.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/01/25 12:03 PM
3

It is. It's fixed by just making the implicit argument match the explicit argument. It's not hard to do, you just drop the generalizations and be more specific.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/12/24 06:09 PM
7

No thanks. It's impossible for any concept of men's rights or dignity even while men are presented as an oppressor class.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/12/24 10:41 PM
14

The one thing I'd add to.this is why it matters is that I believe we are not actually challenging those with power because of it. Because essentially it's a model that blames all men in practice, and it's easier to go after people with less power, that's what tends to happen. That's why most efforts to create gender equity generally punch down, limiting access to power rather than stripping it away or socially/culturally encouraging divestment. If people actually believed this patriarchy stuff, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/12/24 07:50 PM
18

Just as an aside, I think the whole male loneliness thing is a symptom of a larger issue, that being the undermining of the confidence, self-esteem and self-worth of men. Largely through the harns done of viewing men as an oppressor class.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/12/24 04:01 AM
8

Not the person you are asking, but I would argue that as a general rule these ideas exist to attack the other, the out-group, and they are actually rarely applied to people close to home, so to speak. I would argue the big issue with these relationships is less the misandry and more the inflated sense of self.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/12/24 07:37 PM
61

It's pretty simple really. It's a fight over if Trans women should be excluded from the Hammer of Shame aimed at men. And both the TERF and TRA sides believe it should exist, to be clear. And just to make my position clear, because we do have some Trans folks on this form. I do not believe TRA's reflect the views or priorities of most Trans individuals. In general, I don't believe most activists actually reflect the views or priorities of the people they claim to be fighting for.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/12/24 03:48 PM
23

I would actually say there's something actionable, awareness about how the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy can cover up bad actions and behaviors. It's more reason why we need to filter this epistemology out of our society. Edit: Just to be clear, my argument is that any concept of progress for men absolutely can not happen from under the Oppressor/Oppressed framework. It's just not possible, especially if there's negative social value in actually rejecting power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/12/24 03:35 PM
5

For me, equality is basically just recognizing people as complex individuals.Thats something I support.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/12/24 06:08 PM
21

My take on all of this, is what's wanted is for men to "know our place" and act accordingly. It's totally exploitative, I would argue. The thing that this post is about, that higher status people can get away with things, is a feature, not a bug of this modern Progressive culture. Having watched the formation of that culture from the ground up, it's always been about protecting the idea of different rules and norms for different people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/12/24 05:49 PM
20

As men become more aware that they can be victims as well, it leads to them reanalyzing past experiences, and in some cases realizing that yes, they were victimized. The idea that men vastly underreport both these numbers is completely in line with what we know about societal pressures and influences placed on men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/12/24 05:48 PM
17

People reframing their own past experiences to realize they were abused in the past is the obvious, and I'll say, pretty blatantly so, answer to this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/12/24 05:35 PM
-1

Keeping to economics, I personally say it's false because of the Professional Managerial Class that has its own class interests and values.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/12/24 03:24 PM
17

Yup. Talking about women's role in enforcing traditional gender norms is still seen as misogynistic outside of attacking conservative women. Until this changes, I have little hope that society is going to meaningfully change, and as such the best that men can do is our best to live in such a crappy world.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/12/24 03:15 PM
7

Yup. Just to add to that, I believe that by making that "punching up" argument, you're effectively saying that those groups/people should have power over you, which I think absolutely creates a sense of fear and resentment. When I say I think this stuff makes things worse I mean it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/24 05:00 PM
8

Those things are the biggies really, or at least the most in the public spotlight. I'm not in support of any sort of laws around bathroom access, to be clear, but I think it also has to be made clear that breaking this good faith implementation means you will not be able to protect yourself using the trans identity as a marginalized person. Just as a whole really, the ability to use marginalized status to protect ones wrongdoing is always going to be a problem, and needs to be distanced from. I'…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/24 04:03 PM
10

Yup. Largely it's an argument if Transmen should be exempt from the Hammer of Shame. My own position is that I think people who are trying to exploit this identity shouldn't be given social or legal power or consideration. I think this is fairly rare, to be clear, but I do think it's a point that has to be made.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/24 02:47 PM
18

The problem is that it's fairly common among Progressive Feminists. My argument, to be clear, is that Cultural Progressives as a whole, not just in terms of feminism, holds on to strict Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomies in order to freeze out discussion of other facets of power, privilege and bias. And as someone who believes that a large amount of DV is actually due to status sensitivity, a culture that in my mind is actively promoting and defending status advantages, that the rules should be dif…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/24 02:09 PM
52

Just to add on to this, what's going on is that we are rejecting the idea that abuse is due to something inherent to masculinity, and instead, are looking at more specific personality traits and attitudes. The point is actually to better address the abuse that women face as well, not to downplay it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/24 12:35 PM
44

To be frank, my experience is that Cultural Progressives want the credit, and the status and power that goes along with it. To the point where they will actively ignore previous achievements or steps forward in order to institute their own first. In this way, I think the ball is actually in Cultural Progressives court, to recognize egalitarianism as a valid, good faith pro-social PoV even if they disagree. Btw, on the TERF thing. I think it's simply feminist theory actualized against an out-grou…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/12/24 12:29 PM
1

The thing is,there's different types of social pressure. What I largely see among men, is largely the mentality that X behaviors and personality traits will be better for you than Y behaviors and personality traits. The question is really is this right or wrong. And by and large, unfortunately, I think it's correct. The actual discussion should be how to create a world where Y behaviors are viewed just as well, if not better than X behaviors. Trying to do this just among men essentially becomes …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/12/24 06:12 PM
5

The larger point is there doesn't actually seem like much of a movement to actually change women's views towards men. To change the image/value of men as a provider/protector into something else. Especially not with the same vigor and hostility as we used and still use to try and change men's attitudes. This is actually why I say that unfortunately the Male Gender Role isn't going to change anytime soon, and unfortunately we are going to have to live with it. The big thing to me is that we don't…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/12/24 04:53 AM
5

To be clear, my argument is that largely this "false-feminism" (although I think it's largely dominant, there's a reason things like Patriarchy Theory haven't been replaced), the reliance on strict Oppressor vs Oppressed dichotomies, exist in order to freeze out these other facets of power, privilege and bias. Intersectionality as a whole is limited to a relatively small number of "safe" criteria. Those other criteria threaten those with power, because in some cases it recognizes the power itsel…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 10:32 PM
5

Well, generally I'd say the best I can think of is an egalitarian meritocracy with a strong social safety net to deal with its externalities, but to me that's neither here nor there, and I don't think that's the point. I think rather, it's what these ideas look like when they are actualized into the real world, and if it's something people want, and as someone who lived that life and knows what it looks like, I think the answer is no. With these sorts of concepts, the idea is that most if not al…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 09:52 PM
27

You literally need to flip the gender discourse upside down. You have to entirely replace the context of masculinity being about power and oppression and replace it with a framing of it being about responsibility.....even when it goes off the rails. Truth is when put into practice, it sounds gross, because in a way its putting individual men's bad behavior into the context of these social and material pressures. I'm not saying that to defend that bad behavior, but I do think that's what it will …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 07:54 PM
103

The problem is if this doesn't come with some sort of dignity and respect, all this does is double down on male disposability.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 07:31 PM
4

For me it's pretty simple and obvious. Patriarchy theory is an active rejection of materialism. I do favor the materialist view of gender roles, and while I actually think this is less leftist and actually more south of center (I was introduced to this idea by a libertarian), I do think you can make the argument that real leftism is materialist. All leftists are materialist but not all materialists are leftists is the way I'd put it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 05:56 PM
7

Yeah, but I understand that I'm the bathwater, right? I'm the thing to get gotten rid of. Maybe we could change society to value the dregs, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. Look how society mocks insecure men rather than valuing us. It's just ass-backwards if you ask me, and I'm not talking about conservatives here, I'm talking about strong Progressives. I don't mind being set on fire to keep others warm. I understand much of the world sees me as completely disposable. I kn…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 05:13 PM
7

I think here's the problem. I have to accept that I'm a horrible person, deserving of nothing and that the world would be a better place without me. Totally insecure and self-hating, that's what I grew up believing I had to be in order to be a "changed" man. The problem is that's still not something that's accepted and valued by society, It's less men that need to internalize these ideas as it is women, to be honest. Maybe that's overstating thing, but the core idea stands. How do we actually ch…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 05:04 PM
5

So how many times of those men actually changed? How many gave up their jobs, their relationships and more because they understood that they didn't deserve those things within a Patriarchal system? My guess is not many, they just used these ideas as a weapon against the other. That's the problem with this sort of dehumanizing rhetoric. I don't think there's an ethical way for men to actually exist within a Patriarchal system. Period. Now luckily, I don't think that's true or ever really has been…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/12/24 04:54 PM
5

This part of the upper left has a huge problem with Toxic Masculinity and the need to get men to believe that they are disposable.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/11/24 02:11 PM
8

Because men are just straight up objectified. It's a reaction to that objectification. Basically a demand for some sort of reciprocity. I've said this before, but if you look where the new wave of the Red Pill (I think that's the best way to explain it.) and where it came from, it's absolutely reacting to a hyperobjectification of men. The problem is that there's nobody shouting down that hyperobjectification. I've talked about how the Female Dating Strategy stuff "broke containment" and went vi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/11/24 04:41 PM
32

The left can't win while anti-pluralistic identitarianism is running unchecked. Or at least it's significantly harder, obviously harder than it has to be. What are left of center parties offering? Social programs and economic reforms. However, I don't think it's irrational, given the rhetoric of cultural Progressives, for people to doubt that they'll actually be extended these things themselves. Then at that point it's just about self-preservation really. Just keeping it on gender, if men are th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/11/24 05:27 PM
22

The idea that you might have to keep them protected from misandrist messages never even occurs to them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/11/24 12:44 PM
2

Incorrect. That is nowhere near the definition of toxic masculinity. I am not saying that shaming emotions isn't bad, but that is not what toxic masculinity is. Stop trying to make up new definitions of words. It just confuses people. That....is the definition of Toxic Masculinity. What do you think it is? Do you completely buy into the stereotype that makes it entirely about men's behavior? No, it was supposed to be about the incentives and pressures that push men into acting in ways that are h…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/11/24 10:46 PM
5

This is just ridiculous. You don't get to dramatically change the definition of a relatively common word or phrase and expect other people to A) know what you are talking about, or B) agree to use the word that way. No, when you're shaming men's emotions, that's toxic masculinity. When you're demanding that men, from their perspective, set themselves on fire to keep others warm, that's toxic masculinity. That's not redefining the term. That IS the term. Yes, when feminists reintroduced it they p…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/11/24 07:33 PM
3

I don't think the data suggests the level of struggle you are referring to. If young men are struggling, it is because of a new education gap. Not because of an equity-focused DEI economy. To be clear, this is less about today and more about a potential tomorrow. I don't actually think that right now, there's much in the way of actual equity sorting, however, I don't expect that to always be the case, given current trends. I think eventually we will see things like hiring/promotion freezes put o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/11/24 02:13 PM
9

The problem is that equity+the Male Gender Role results in this really nasty never-ending ever accelerating treadmill for men, especially younger men. It means men have to compete harder and harder to meet the expectations to ensure that they're able to get and hold on to the limited number of places opening up for men in an equity-focused economy. So ultimately I think one of the big part of the issues, is because people do hold on so hard to the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy, (my argument is b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/11/24 07:19 PM
2

Purposefully rejecting the Male Gender Role to try and get rid of it. I think that was the traditional feminist idea, if enough men rejected the Male Gender Role, society would have no choice but to change. The problem is that never panned out at all.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/24 10:47 PM
2

Yeah, I agree with this. But here's the thing, I'm just being clear, if I could snap my fingers and get rid of it I absolutely would. It's not that I support or agree with the Male Gender Role. It's that it's too tough of a hill to climb to demand that men martyr themselves for the cause.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/24 10:31 PM
-1

I actually don't view it as left wing vs. right wing. I view it as top vs bottom. As identitarian/authoritarian vs. non-identitarian/pluralist. I strongly believe that men's issues exist exclusively in that bottom 50%. Left to right.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/24 10:27 PM
137

I wouldn't say left spaces per se. I think if you go into the IRL and find relatively non-Progressive, more liberal/pluralist spaces, things are fine, and yes, they are out there (although I will admit you have to be lucky to find them). But Progressive spaces? Absolutely not. I've tried it, been burned by it, won't do it again. As a neurodivergent man, they don't give two fucks about how harmful their rhetoric is to people who actually take things literally and seriously. The suggestion is basi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/11/24 09:48 PM
19

Yeah, for me it's ultimately about the men who can't fulfill the Male Gender Role, not those who can. Those people telling me they should just basically give it up while at the same time they're still performing that role isn't going to be a compelling argument at all. And if you want to go the other way, I legitimately don't think you can get there without criticizing a lot of feminist details. Not the goals, but the process itself had/have some major issues to be worked through in terms of men…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/11/24 06:59 PM
7

Don't think of it as just left and right, like it's a binary or a straight spectrum. There's an up and down as well. And the up...the identitarianism, the authoritarianism, etc. is really bad. Left right and center. That's my stance. The Democrats lost largely because the modern Progressive culture is strictly anti-down. The media, the activists, the academics, etc. I think largely because we believe in equality....everyone following the same rules essentially....that it challenges their own sen…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/11/24 02:17 PM
15

They do not want south of center supporters. I think I've talked about what I called vector theory here before. That is, if you take a standard 2-axis political landscape, you can turn the dots into arrows to show preference. For example, I'd argue most people here are in the bottom left quadrant. Most people quite to the left. But some people put more weight on the down than the left and other people put more weight on the left than the down. Bernie in 2016 attracted a lot of down arrow people.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/11/24 04:06 AM
1

It's not left vs right, it's up vs down. There's a progressive culture over the last decade that has embraced bigotry, that has moved to a more authoritarian position to claim and protect personal power. It doesn't mean that it's not left-leaning. That culture still wants to eat the billionaires. But that it heavily protects and actively promotes the interests of the managerial class is a big issue.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/11/24 12:38 PM
17

Don't claim that you hate toxic masculinity and then only talk about how it affects women. Start talking about how it negatively affects men. And mean it. Realize that feminism tore down our old ideas of masculinity without replacing it with a viable new model Where all the talk about toxic masculinity went horribly wrong, is nobody ever talked about their own "toxic masculinity", I.E. the things that they did that put harmful pressure on the men around them. Nobody talks about the things that t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/11/24 09:46 PM
6

I realized that very few people actually believed it, that it was a luxury belief, something pseudo-religious that was basically weaponized against out-group people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/11/24 12:08 PM
63

There was a line in the video....men are cast as villains in their anime fan-fiction....that really resonated with me, and I stand by it. All those theories and models are fan-fiction. If they actually had to apply them to their family, their friends....themselves, those ideas would be rejected straight away. But as long as it's just slings and arrows to be aimed at the other? It's easy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/10/24 06:20 PM
2

For what it's worth, if people are looking for a US political podcast, I always send them over to Px3. Been a day 1 listener.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/10/24 11:44 AM
2

It all comes down to the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy, and the inability to acknowledge any power or influence that women have. This really does limit any possiblity of effective systemic (cultural) change. For both men and women.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/10/24 11:52 AM
84

So the problem with that term, is that it's virtually never used to actually talk about the pressures men face. It's generally used as a shaming tactic to get men to ignore those pressures and incentives, which can actually be very self-destructive. See my post about the Hyper Male Gender Role, but this does stem from that refusal to actually concede anything to men. Because the reality, if you're going to take the steelman version of Toxic Masculinity, at some level, we have to talk about how w…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/10/24 10:49 PM
5

Fwiw I don't really blame Feminism for that. I think it's a part of a larger whole, in that I think the concept of "social sciences" is actually stupid destructive. It's trying to be like physics or chemistry coming up with constant formulas to describe reality, but the problem is you can't when it comes to society because it's never constant. It's just not the right epistemology.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/10/24 10:36 PM
13

Yeah, it's going to essentially require a complete renegotiation of these social pressures, and to be clear, I do not think this is something most forms of feminism are anywhere close to navigating, and whenever it tries to do so, it's just going to make things worse, because it's going to be one way negotiations, only forcing men to make concessions. That is the entire problem isn't it. That's how we got here. I'm not strictly blaming feminism as a whole here. I don't think it's intentional....…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/10/24 08:56 PM
2

No, not at all. Actually, if I'm not trying to be diplomatic, I'd argue that this authoritarian way of thinking promotes sociopathic and narcissistic behaviors and thought processes. That holding these hypocrisies and double standards should be seen as a major red flag about someone.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/24 01:55 AM
1

I think it's a useful point in a bunch of ways. The big thing, as some who actually has struggled due to internalizing these models and ideas, I think the message that it's bullshit very few people would subject the men they care about to is actually a very important part of helping men move past these ideas that are essentially crippling their ability to operate in society. To stop internalizing and actualizing these messages. As well, I think it breaks kayfabe. We are acknowledging that these …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/10/24 05:58 PM
3

Yeah, I didn't put it here, but I think this applies to a whole host of issues, on both the left and right side of things. Truth is, I think it's an authoritarian thing. The desire to have the power to tell people what to do means they don't have the power to tell you what to do.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/10/24 03:54 AM
1

The thing is, the key to breaking men out of the Male Gender Role is the same. To view men, more specifically men not in your circles, as complex and worthy by virtue of their humanity. That men have innate value outside of what they can do for you. The problem is that all the models push us away from that. And let me be clear, I'm kinda blackpilled on the Male Gender Role, not that I think it's a good thing, I'd snap my fingers and get rid of it if I could, but that I think it's too useful for …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/10/24 03:40 AM
25

I think the best thing to understand is that people don't really believe that stuff. It's not something that's commonly actualized into people's active thought processes and day to day life. The best way to look at it is essentially a sort of passcode. It's something that signifies someone as part of the in-group. The big problem, of course, is that this isn't something that's commonly communicated (of course it's not). So people on the out-group are going to take these messages entirely differe…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/10/24 11:36 PM
2

The one thing you're missing here is the reality of the Male Gender Role, which is actually the thing I think everything kinda circles around. Peterson is one thing, I think ideally, if you could remove the paranoia and the over-the-top anti-communism (I'm not even particularly pro-communist myself, seeing it as a system to prioritize the managerial class over the working class) you'd get something workable. Tate is an entirely different story. This is a guy who weaponizes and exploits the Male …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/10/24 09:28 PM
12

Material harm is downstream from culture here I think. The big problem is one of mental health and maladaptive socialization. When I talk about that Masculinity Reform Project, I'm doing it to separate it from other elements of feminism, of which I largely support.Its the effort to lower men's confidence and self-esteem by making us aware of assumed social power dynamics and applying them to ourselves. Simple as that. Ideally, this would have been towards a healthy middle, but it was never that.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/10/24 06:09 AM
2

I wouldn't say that. At all. I just think it hasn't evolved with the times. That's all. The same ideas that make little sense or are even harmful today were pretty useful in the 60's and 70's when they were derived.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/10/24 11:04 PM
17

Yeah, the lack of self-policing is the real problem. Now to be clear, I think this is actually a broader problem, I think the "kayfabe" in politics and activism is really destructive where there's either good guys and bad guys across the board with no nuance or separation. I think this is wrong. And people think I'm making excuses for the bad guys. I'm not. I'm saying that the good guys are not flawless. On this issue I can think of a ton of examples. The almost across the board misuse of object…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/10/24 10:58 PM
14

Eh, I'd argue what I'd call the Masculinity Reform Project has been pretty much a disaster for men. It's caused a real problem with dropping self-esteem and confidence among men who have had little of this to begin with. I think what was missed was that not all men have the "patriarchal" upbringing that was assumed, and to pressure men into further extremes because of this was pretty unhealthy. Speaking personally that's what hurt me, and really hurt my development in so many ways, of which I'm …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/10/24 10:47 PM
7

Yeah. There's a problem on the left where the focus on the workers vs the capitalists obscures other class conflicts. At the very least, from a strictly economic perspective, you have to add in a managerial class, with its own power and interests. Once you do this, everything becomes significantly more complicated....but also makes more sense.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/10/24 06:50 PM
7

It's because what this person wants creates Incels. Simple as that. There would have to be some accountability and responsibility taken.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/10/24 05:51 PM
1

Fwiw, if you go and read the original article by Nussbaum, it's much less focused on sexual attraction. The more materialist aspects of the concept have largely been filtered out, I think because of the objectifying nature of academia, and it's use of gross stereotypes and assumptions in the social sciences.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/10/24 11:12 AM
2

The problem is that without the expectations and responsibilities placed on men changed dramatically, giving up whatever privilege and power might exist is a very dumb thing to do.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/09/24 07:51 PM
2

Not to be rude, but that's the part in the 2nd paragraph.What does it look like when people apply these lenses to their own circumstances in a truly critical way, and is this something we think is healthy. And if the answer is no, I'd argue then at that point the ideas are not fit for purpose, and are super toxic and harmful overall. Do we expect men to not apply for or turn down jobs when there isn't already 50%0 women in that role, as an example? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/09/24 12:19 PM
2

I actually don't think it's about data science or the lack there-of at all (although that's an issue in a different way). If I had to describe what I think is needed, it's actually something more akin to a theoretical anthropology. What does it actually look like when someone actually applies these ideas to their day to day life in a truly self-critical sense? What does it look like if people actually assume their privilege and power, and take concrete steps to give up those things? Is this some…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/09/24 04:27 PM
5

I'd argue that this isn't just a feminism thing. It's the entire Critical body of sociological work coming out of academia. Very few people espousing these ideas actually believe them to a point where they will apply them to themselves and the people around them, but thats never communicated, so you do have people doing this in a very self-harming way, or you have people reacting very strongly against something they see (correctly, from their perspective) as a legitimate threat. In reality, the …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/09/24 03:06 PM
12

The way I'd put it, we need a theory of gender not based around power, but based around expectations and responsibilities.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/09/24 05:07 AM
15

I both agree with you and disagree with you. I think your title is largely correct (if we leave out "stranger in the bushes" scenarios), but your explanation misses the mark. I'll put it simply. The Male Gender Role is dangerous in this regard straight up. The pressure to be the Initiator, to lead the way is much of the issue. Especially when alcohol is involved. And no, I'm not victim blaming, I'm saying when the Initiator has been drinking. And I'm saying Initiator because it's just as dangero…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/09/24 05:38 PM
20

Cultural Progressivism (it's more than just gender issues tbh) just isn't a serious memeset. That's the long and short of it. There's no thinking about what it looks like if people actually listen to them and do the things they want them to do, if that's something that's healthy or that they even want. The problem is our culture does treat it like a serious memeset, serious as a heart attack. This is where a lot of the current reactionary wave comes from. Because it is a demand to be self-destru…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/09/24 12:44 PM
10

The bulk of the danger, I really feel, is in people who assume consent. At least outside the straight up sociopaths. But I think at least to a degree, assuming consent is necessary for the Male Gender Role. And that's where I think the problem is. The Male Gender Role is dangerous. This doesn't make men inherently bad, but the pressures and expectations placed on men can go horribly wrong. And they can, and do sometimes, go wrong when women perform those roles as well. You have to be really care…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/09/24 12:59 PM
32

I'll be honest, I'm very dire about any sort of media support, at least in the near term. My own belief is that acknowledging the MRM....even just acknowledging egalitarianism, breaks the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy. Why is that an issue? Because when we look at a more nuanced view, generally those facets of power, privilege and bias that come into play, the Professional Managerial Class feels like they are under attack (not entirely incorrectly tbh), which the media is part of. What is it....…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/09/24 10:41 PM
4

My own view of it, is that through nature and socialization, men are widely varied in terms of how masculine they are. The question is how to help people get to a point that makes them happy and healthy. Where the big Masculinity Reform Project went horribly wrong, is it could not envision the needs of men at the low end of that spectrum, as the pressure it was exerting went in one direction. And this might not be popular, but I'd argue given the reality of the Male Gender Role, that healthy pla…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/09/24 03:55 PM
5

What is missed here, I think, is people simply do not give up power. And nobody expects the people in their circle to give up power, but they're shocked when the people outside their circle won't give it up. This is actually why toxic masculinity was bastardized into the misandrist form we see today....to make it about the pressures men face encourages women to give up the power they have over men. It's why I think we need to go one of two directions. Either giving up power becomes normalized an…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/09/24 12:05 AM
17

My personal opinion is that there's a critical flaw with thought on the left that creates a very real vulnerability to these ideas, and it incentives them, especially for people with power. The core argument of leftism, I believe, is reclaiming the essentially stolen value of ones labor that makes up capitalist profit. Fair enough. But what if this stolen value isn't just in the hands of the owners. What about the managers, the bureaucrats? Because as far as I can tell, there's a lot of stolen v…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/09/24 06:05 PM
7

The Incel mindset, the maladaptive masculinity that makes operating in the world very difficult for some men, is just internalizing/actualizing progressive feminist ideas.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/09/24 10:16 AM
8

As someone who is that "nice" person, it's largely because I care about everybody else more than I care about myself. Whatever principles I might have get pushed to the back for the happiness of others. It's something I'm trying to get past, but I think it's the end result of people, especially men , internalizing that they have no or negative value.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/09/24 12:07 AM
9

I think his solution is good, if we can make it look socially acceptable for all men. However, I have to say I disagree with the social media focus of it all, or at least it's overblown. It's not that I don't think it can be harmful, it's that these forces teaching men they have no value besides what they can provide to others has really predated the internet, or I guess more accurately, the moral and social debt that comes along with Patriarchy theory. Without the internet, to be honest, I thin…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/08/24 06:22 PM
7

But if it wasn't him, it would be someone else. I think that's the point. I think Modern Online Progressivism has cultivated a world where principles and values do not matter, only power. Everything else is downstream of that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/08/24 04:35 PM
8

I agree, but here's the thing, working together is impossible while the political view is of men as an Oppressor class. Now, here's the thing that I think explains your experiences. I think most people actually reject that model for their own lives. That is, they have some understanding how toxic and hurtful it is, so they are not going to view the people around them through that lens. I think actually this is the worst of both worlds. If one is looking for equity, this really hobbles it, becaus…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/08/24 09:25 AM
11

I think this is a larger issue actually, it's why myself I try to create a separation between the authoritarian/identitarian forms of social Progressivism that has come out of academia, and more pluralist views. It's not just sex/gender but I find it's very difficult to actually raise a distinction between the two things on the whole, and people want to fit it all into a singular opposition to right-wing/reactionary ideas. We should see more internal criticism of bigoted and offensive ideas. Lik…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/08/24 09:23 PM
3

The core conflict here is if power is universal or situational.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/08/24 09:36 PM
10

In practice I think it's more than that. I actually do have a lot of charisma, but it's not the type of charisma that makes me attractive. I think "rizz" in reality is more specific in terms of your ability to present yourself as a sexual being/option.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/08/24 02:28 PM
21

The part of this nobody talks about is the social and cultural pressures to be in a relationship. This goes for both men and women, of course, but I'd argue that due to the responsibility for action placed on men, its significantly worse for men. A part of that solution is combatting those social and cultural pressures, but again, I don't think there's any interest in doing that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/08/24 02:18 PM
3

I'll give my opinion. I don't think conservatives address men's issues like I would want, however, if you think the Male Gender Role is going to be ratcheted up without any real challenge, you could make an argument for both right wing economic and social ideas. Not that I will support it, but it's not difficult for me to see how and why. Economically, fostering competition and inequality may lead to more men being able to distinguish themselves from the pack, performing this hyper Gender Role s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/08/24 02:15 AM
8

I would argue it hasn't shifted to the left, it has shifted towards the "up" towards a more authoritarian, less pluralist, more identitarian, and more power hoarding culture. I think the perception of this is it favors the interests of the managerial class more than the working class, not incorrectly. Just to be clear, my argument is that the concept of equality for men is inherently a south of center, "down" position.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/08/24 03:35 PM
5

Feminism absolutely can be for men, and pretty much every feminist I've met IRL has been about equity. Truth is, I think equity is a big part of the problem, largely in how the actions don't match the ideas, or I guess more specifically, the costs and consequences of the idea tend to be pushed "out and down" rather than "up and in". The question I always ask people, a male friend gets a promotion at work. Do you A. Congratulate him, or B. remind him of his male privilege in a patriarchal system,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/08/24 08:58 PM
16

Someone on this sub actually said that most of the men on the Menslib sub come off as "reformed dude bros" Guilty as charged. Not just there, to be clear. Most of the men, both online and IRL that I've run into that have embraced that particular Patriarchal view of Feminism have essentially been "reformed dude bros", more traditional men who have had the edges sanded off them. Now this can be a good thing or a bad thing. Truth is, I'm not sure. Does it improve their behavior? Maybe. But there's …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/08/24 08:39 PM
9

The authoritarian spectrum should be defined by power hoarding vs power sharing. The problem right now for feminism is there's way too much of the former and very little of the latter.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/08/24 01:00 PM
8

Not Peterson, John McWhorter. Basically, modern cultural Progressivism uses strict monodirectional power structures as essentially something it demands people take on faith, and we should essentially treat it secularly by acknowledging the belief then moving on past it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/08/24 12:55 AM
11

I don't think those definitions are that far apart. Both indicate essentially a "PvP" view on gender dynamics. This is not something I think is the dominant force. Instead, I believe in a "PvE" view, I.E. gender norms developed as a response to material realities in our world, and as our world changes and those material realities change, we should not keep our of date norms.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/08/24 10:23 AM
11

To acknowledge men's issues, I think is to actively acknowledge a lot of the other power, privileges and biases that exist in our society. To ask the question, which men benefit from the existing structures and which men do not.So things like socioeconomic class, status, networking, various personality and physical traits, etc. These are very much s taboo subject that I think any sort of egalitarian movement is going to run up against, let alone a full on men's rights treatment.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/08/24 01:15 PM
1

I don't think it does. I think the argument that it's common is a bit of a protection thing, I.E to actually talk about the problematic elements as if they're more specific or rare isnt what is wanted, which is to essentially "sand the edges" off the already masculine, and again, make something more effective in serving them. And yeah, I don't like the term myself, although I think the original purpose is correct. It's a question of how we can stop rewarding men so much for fulfilling the Male G…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/08/24 06:16 PM
12

One thing is that I don't think this is limited to just gender. I think it applies to all sorts of things, and I don't even think it's just the "normative" stuff that's harmful, speaking as a very unmasculine man who was harmed by attempts to limit any sort of movement towards a healthy middle. It's more like harmful personality/trait enforcement that's the problem. Ultimately, I do believe why masculinity is singled out is that hyper version of the Male Gender Role is a thing, and the idea of t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/08/24 05:15 PM
5

The danger is the Male Gender Role itself. It's dangerous when men perform it, and it's dangerous when women perform it as well. It's dangerous to have the responsibility for initiating and escalating relationships and situations. To actually break that socialization, you have to show men that if you do it, you'll be seen as unattractive and low status, and if you don't do it, vice versa. You have to actively make sure that men that perform the MGR are punished socially, and that the men that re…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/08/24 07:27 PM
2

I mean, the idea of freeing men from gender roles being liberation isn't wrong. You just can't advocate for it really through the Critical, Oppressor/Oppressed model. That they hold on to those models is the issue, because if you can't criticize women's role in upholding the Male Gender Role, nothing is going to change in a healthy way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/08/24 12:46 PM
4

Or in short, the Male Gender Role itself is dangerous. You can fuck with men's personality traits all you want, but at the end of the day, the expectations and responsibilities placed on men are dangerous to perform, both for themselves and others.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/08/24 08:20 PM
29

I think homophobia, in this context, is substantially overstated. The big block to male relationships isn't homophobia, as what's generally implied, it's a combination of the undermining of male self-worth and confidence as well as the Male Gender Role which teaches men to not be a burden on others. The problem with this is that it isn't in line with feminist/progressive orthodoxy, and in fact is pretty critical of it, if not outright in opposition, if you see modern Progressive Feminism as both…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/08/24 11:59 AM
2

It's more than said young white feminists. Modern Online Progressive culture is built around the use and exploitation of social power. Whether it's used to bully people, for change or just to bully people, or to get away with stuff that normally would be frowned upon, these are the roots of this culture, speaking as someone who was there. See as an example how avoidant people in said MOP community are to applying their own ideas to themselves. For example, the union-busting often done by Progres…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/08/24 04:21 PM
14

So a bunch of things here. First, I think "liberal" is a confusing word here. I look at these things on a 2d spectrum. Up top you have authoritarianism and identitarianism, and down bottom you have pluralism, liberalism and egalitarianism. I think more people in their day to day lives are below center on this chart. However as it stands, the up top is very good at gaining institutional power and as such it tends to hold it. This is why liberal feminism/egalitarianism is actually representative o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/08/24 12:59 PM
21

For what it's worth, the reason I say that the Male Gender Role is not going away anytime soon and people are best off understanding that, no matter what people tell them is exactly this. We have zero stomach as a society for criticizing media aimed at women promoting messages that reinforce and even go harder on the Male Gender Role. And I'll just restate my argument. This is the stuff that feeds the modern Red Pill stuff. Without this sort of reactionary empowerment, this cakism as another com…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/08/24 10:16 AM
1

I just make a concerted effort to avoid content made in North America.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/07/24 03:49 PM
1

I think decades ago the bulk of the recognized problem was hyper misogynistic psychopaths. As times have changed and the scope expanded, what happened I think is that the bulk of the issue is changed...but the target remains the same, I.E challenging this hyper misogynistic psychopathy. The place that we need to focus on here is regarding the assumption of consent. Pop
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/07/24 04:23 AM
67

So, I'm going to give you a gentle disagreement here, in that I think those other things are not accepted either. It's possible that criticism of misandry might be treated worse just because feminism has more influence than other forms of identity politics, but still, I wouldn't call any of that acceptable. The way I'd frame your question is why do people hold on so hard to strict Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomies? My own personal belief, is that limiting things to a relatively small number of ide…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/07/24 01:50 AM
1

Still very very rare. As Schala said, the much bigger problem is people you know to some degree, and this is the controversial bit, the actual problem is people assuming consent either because of ego and hubris, with intoxication being something known to increase those personality traits. That's actually the reason why a lot of people drink.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/07/24 10:15 AM
24

When you realize that egalitarians and even liberal feminists are dumped in as well..... It's a way to build and maintain kayfabe and a strict political binary. It's super destructive to both politics and culture.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/07/24 07:27 PM
1

I mean they ARE often leftist, in the way that they're seeking a post-capitalist system. I don't think it's correct to say that they're not. The problem is that they want to leave in place or even expand the hierarchies that benefit them personally. It's why there's so much talk about the "Billionaires" and very little talk about the gap between the Wage and the Salary classes. The identitarianism (and I'll be honest, I don't like the term liberal for that, I understand why it's used, but there'…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/07/24 11:56 PM
1

Or we could do away with the capitalist model of compensation all together but that seems like more of a long-term project. I'll be honest, one of the reasons sometimes I can seem not left is because I'm skeptical of the left's ability/desire to actually do this more broadly, even in a post-capitalist system. I need some convincing that this issue is on the radar and some level of understanding of how to fix it. Can our society work, with higher levels of work theoretically not resulting in econ…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/07/24 07:32 PM
7

Truth is, I think it's even worse than that. Because socioeconomic decline, either among individuals or families is so unthinkable, what ends up happening is that we punish the individuals and families who didn't really gain from those systems while protecting the pre-existing "ill-gotten gains". So, for example there's so much effort in controlling the pipeline, while at the same time nothing is really done to speed up churn at the top. And I mean...there are bad things that come with this! Age…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/07/24 07:29 PM
16

The changes over the last decade are better viewed as an exploitation of the Male Gender Role, but in reality it's just expanded to this idea: Men have an inherited moral debt that gives them negative innate value that can only be made up for, temporarily, through service to others, especially women. To be clear, I don't like gender roles either. People mistake my argument for endorsement,it's not. But I went through and still go through shit for rebelling and actively rejecting them. And I cann…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/07/24 05:05 PM
32

What you're talking about is that the Male Gender Role really hasn't gone away, and in some cases it might be more intense now than it was a decade ago. We've done work in terms of pushing back against the Female Gender Role, which is a good thing, but this has created a very real social and cultural imbalance. (This is the cause of the Red Pill 4.0 stuff as well as much of Incel culture). I'm of two minds about it, because as much as I'd love to snap my fingers and get rid of it, as it stands t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/07/24 03:39 PM
4

Well, my point is that what people call intersectionality leaves a lot of things out, in order to maintain a strict Oppressor/Oppressed hierarchy in the few things it does cover. And it's really self-serving, as these ideas come from academia and it never really challenges academia's role itself in building and perpetuating inequality. To be clear, I'm not anti-feminist, I'm anti-Cultural Progressive, for two reasons. The first is the before stated reliance on a strict Oppressor/Oppressed dichot…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/07/24 01:03 PM
3

The problem is you have to look at the broader context and that other facets of power, privilege and bias are often thrown under the bus. What would it look like for power implications to be taken seriously? I would argue we'd see a lot more punching up and less punching down. We would be actively encouraging men who have actual power to give up said power, rather than making it harder for men to try and make their way in the world. I think we would accept that not all men have power. That somet…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/07/24 12:14 PM
2

I think it would be difficult to gather evidence about RoGD because it's essentially arguing that essentialist forms of feminist theory/culture can be harmful to young women. People don't frame it that way, but the that's what I think it is.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/07/24 01:17 PM
12

Honestly, I have no love for either TERFs or TRAs, as I think they are very similar and just disagree on a fairly minor detail, although it has broad implications. Are Transwomen exposed to/affected by the same male socialization or not? One side says yes, the other side says no. Personally I don't buy universal socialization, I don't buy the Blank Slate either, nor do I buy gender and personality as political acts. Ultimately, I think both "sides" or at least the predecessors of them bear signi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/07/24 04:47 PM
27

It's not just men expecting other men to be a combination of traditional and progressive. I actually think this is what it comes down to, in that the often incoherent expectation of traditional and progressive is particularly harmful. More so, I think it's more of an issue of if you have the personality/social status/etc. to basically hold on to your particular mix. All my experience with the Menslib "type", is that largely they are reformed dudebros who have learned to soften the edges off thei…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/07/24 10:49 AM
5

Ehh, it kinda is a conspiracy theory. The alternative, and I don't know what to call it, is that gender roles and norms formed largely from economic materialist realities, mostly centered around the reality of chain childbirth. Personally I'd call it something like a Natalarchy. That said, we don't need those norms in place since say the industrial revolution ish.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/24 03:11 AM
20

Yeah, that's the problem. I think the solution put forward here is for men to basically unilaterally abandon the Male Gender Role, and then because men have all the power, society will have no choice but to change. But I don't think that's how it works at all, largely because the men who actually abandon the Male Gender Role have little to no power, status or influence. One of the big problems, not just with Progressive Feminism, but of Progressive Identitarianism as a whole, is that those thing…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/07/24 01:11 PM
18

It's not that he's wrong on the economics per se. It's that when it comes to gender issues, people are simply not materialist. I'm not saying that like I approve of this, to be clear, but it is what it is. Economic policies designed around giving people the bare minimum isn't going to work for the pressures that men face. A living wage, unfortunately, isn't going to do it. I wish it would, to be clear. Hell, in my dream world we'd all be getting/making essentially a living wage and we'd all be h…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/07/24 01:42 AM
27

I'll be honest, what I would say is he misses what I consider to be the big one. I think there was a very real socialization that for men, "the future was beta" and I mean, I don't like those terms, of course they're too reductionist....but I need SOME way to describe it. Certainly, it's the socialization that I personally grew up with. The problem is that....it wasn't. And I'd even argue things have actually gotten significantly worse in the social media era, that more aggressive forms of mascu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/07/24 03:28 AM
6

So from my experience I don't think this is an either/or thing. First of all, I don't think beliefs is the right word. This is more akin to personality traits or behaviors. Something more ingrained IMO. But I'd argue that those with the second ... .say someone very short or neurodivergent or whatever, is way more vulnerable to developing those personality traits.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/24 06:49 PM
9

This is what I tell people, Inceldom more than anything is very much a maladaptive masculinity. It's men who internalized ineffective social strategies for interacting with the world, and where it gets ugly is the demand that those social strategies are made effective. Which isn't going to happen anytime soon, we are essentially talking about nuking the Male Gender Role from orbit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/24 06:01 PM
2

Yeah, anarchism would be at the extreme end of the down. That said, I think it's a bit unclear, because it depends on what you think the ideal end place is. There are people who support anarchy as a transitory state towards their version of authoritarianism, and they are on the up, not the down.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/07/24 10:20 AM
8

So here's the thing, I'd argue that this isn't left vs right, but up vs down. This community largely is for left-wing people, largely we're talking about more governmental control over the economy, a bigger social safety net, more distributionary taxation, higher restrictions on capital, etc. But socially, I actually don't think the left wing matters that much. I mean it does. But this is more about an up vs down. Authoritarian vs. Pluralist/Liberal/Individualist. So you're talking about ... Hav…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/07/24 10:00 PM
20

I think that to acknowledge this would be to admit that we've been socializing confidence and self-esteem out of vulnerable young men in the guise of reforming masculinity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/07/24 03:47 PM
0

I don't think internalized misandry is a better term tbh. I think it's still essentially the same message, in context, men are supposed to ignore harmful social pressures with basically zero support. It's that content that's the issue. A lot of what they think is toxic masculinity is based around those pressures in the first place, around what works, what's effective in fulfilling the Male Gender Role. The solution, at least in the short term is providing men with better tools to fulfill these p…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/24 02:22 PM
2

I think the question is how and why. Note, I don't think more liberal versions of Feminism have this structure necessarily. I think specifically it's related to the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy. I think the motte and Bailey is that it's kept in a way where it's strictly theory for the in-group, but weaponized against the out-groups. Basically the out-group end up being held to standards that people would never apply to themselves and the people around them. My argument is if people felt compell…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/24 01:04 PM
5

For me that's the thing.....how do you liberate men from societal expectations without taking women's choices and behaviors into account? Hell, how do you liberate women without doing the same? Truth is, there's no liberation there. Only weaponization and exploitation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/24 10:48 AM
8

While this is true, this is even when men are talking about it from that perspective. Like it's things that only other people do. No personal accountability at all.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/24 02:31 AM
16

One of the things about "Toxic Masculinity", and I agree, I'm not a fan of the term, although I wish I was TBH, because I wish it was used correctly, is generally, it talks about men's reactions to the pressures that they face and not the pressures themselves. It's SUPPOSED to talk about the pressures. But this is something that's rarely if ever done. So while you're right, that shaming SHOULD be seen as an example of TM, it really isn't. This is why I actually say 99% of the activist work using…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/24 02:04 AM
22

The problem with intersectionalism, or at least the question is if it maintains the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy as a core part of its foundation, which by necessity, freezes out a whole bunch of facets of power, privilege and bias. I don't actually buy that it's a problem with "Internet Dipshits", to be clear, I think it's something more fundamental to academia as a whole, and trying to not be held accountable for the inequality/privilege they are doling out. Even leaving that out, going back …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/24 01:49 AM
1

I actually have a theory that for many/most people, status and community (and these things are related) are actually much lower on that hierarchy of needs....possibly even below materialist survival. This explains a lot of that behavior, as being in a relationship is a prime status symbol. You could make the argument that it shouldn't be....I agree....but it also is something right now has to be acknowledged.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/24 04:38 PM
12

Yeah, that's where I disagree with OP, in that it's very difficult for people to just ignore the social pressures that surround us, especially when they come from people close to us. Expecting men to do so in a way we don't expect for anybody else seems really unhealthy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/24 04:33 PM
5

I think there's a lot of reasons why the natural progression towards modernization has kind of faltered for men. First of all. I just want to be clear. I am on the left. I'm not defending right-wing economics, and I largely do think current capitalistic models and culture is unsustainable. But what exactly does a post-Capitalist economy society look like? And is it completely incompatible with the Male Gender Role? Which I'm not defending either. I'm just taking a realist view on things, that we…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/06/24 07:19 PM
3

What I would argue is that say, racial segregation, it's not left or right. It's more up. As in authoritarian/identitarian. What we've seen over the last 15 years or so, is a movement on the left towards more authoritarian/identitarian politics, and that's largely what people are reacting to, although I think there's other things at play. Men aren't really turning to the right. It's just that the Left has moved so far Left that a man who was Left 10 years ago, seems to now be on the Right. In a …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/06/24 07:10 PM
6

But here's the thing, no matter how ugly, how disgusting these theories and models are, people just do not apply them to the men around them. I think the perspective they are missing is, "What does it mean to actually believe this and to actualize it?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/06/24 07:24 PM
5

FWIW, I don't even think it's the lack of male perspective. I think asking the question about which men have privilege and which men do not opens up a lot of inconvenient questions that people do not want asked.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/06/24 07:02 PM
11

I think people are stuck in the "systemic" mindset. Truth is, I can share my story about how I internalized and actualized these ideas, and the big response was that I need/needed therapy. (No, I needed to see the hypocrisy) The idea of taking these ideas and applying it to oneself and the people around them is just not an option. And it really shouldn't be because it's fundamentally unhealthy, But without that, all you have is this very unhealthy tug of war for power over this pit of doom and g…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/06/24 01:31 PM
8

The other question is educate boys in what. Because that's something that can go a whole lot of different ways, some of them productive, some of them very counter productive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/06/24 07:05 PM
0

Don't let it be about left or right, because it's really not. It's about the up or down, between hierarchy and authoritarianism vs. pluralism and individualism. The best antidote to those creators is to understand that the version of feminity they are based around isn't representative in the real world. Sure, it's big on social media. But by and large it's a small number. Truth is, the best thing you can do is find south of center cultures and communities. Places that embrace individuality and p…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/06/24 11:17 PM
3

I strongly believe that's wrong. I think if there was a recognized non-right wing non-Progressive political alternative that had some level of legitimacy or recognition, you could actually pull people back from the right wing into that alternative. Frankly, that alternative maybe could be leftist to some degree as well. I actually don't think that matters. It's what I tell Progressives. There's a lot of people, modern identitarian Critical Progressivism simply Is. Not. An. Option. Our brains are…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/06/24 04:05 AM
2

For what it's worth I agree with you, and until there's a serious effort to actually holistically change the entire modern paradigm (frankly, critiquing FDS-esque messages out there, treating them akin to Redpill stuff) I think that type of content makes sense, even if I wish it didn't. It's my own personal bias, speaking as someone who did grow up self-sabotaging myself, basically trying to fit into a future world that never came. That's probably the best way to put it. Are the roles and expect…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/06/24 03:58 AM
1

What's really happening is the move is towards the "up", towards authoritarianism and identitarianism. That's what we're seeing. I wouldn't necessarily call it left wing either (although there's certainly some overlap), but the standard one dimensional political spectrum does not capture it accurately.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/06/24 03:51 AM
3

Making a distinction between the privileged men and the underprivileged men opens the door to a whole lot of class and status criteria. A lot of which are seen as fundamental tools, and in some cases the reason why academia exists. It's why I don't blame Feminism per se. I think that Feminist views that escape those academic biases tend to be pretty fine. It basically becomes woman-leaning egalitarianism. Which is fine, certainly something I agreed with at one point, maybe I still do, I'm not su…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/06/24 03:47 AM
7

The above poster is correct. It's a big question, as you're going to require some sort of bureaucratic or governmental structure, and it's an important question how you prevent them from using their power to enrich themselves. I really do think it should be a fundamental question of leftism, as it needs to be a base part of any revolutionary concept. At the very least there's a lot of social and cultural groundwork to move us away from status hierarchies that isn't being done right now. And my a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/06/24 06:19 PM
23

No, not even for class, largely because it's not a binary, and in reality there's some level of triangulation between the workers, the owners, and the managers. The problem is the world without capitalism is probably taken over by the Professional Managerial Class which is going to be very hostile to men and masculinity. I'd love to be wrong about this, but if you ask me, I think much of the modern left are going to speedrun through the worker owned phase straight to the corrupt centrally manage…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/06/24 03:46 PM
12

It's not even just a bit to the right of far left. If you're not part of a left focused on recognizing and manipulating historical theories of power, you're automatically the enemy. If you value pluralism and fairness, you're the enemy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/06/24 12:05 PM
1

What makes this complicated, I think, is that there's more than two positions here (of course when isn't there?). My own personal position on this is that I think the epistemology is dangerous, I.E. the way of looking at power through the strict oppressor/oppressed lens. And this is something I see from both the TERFs and the TRAs. (Note: I do not think TRAs actually represent Trans people. I do not at all think they're representative). That's where it gets complicated. Because you might see peo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/06/24 08:53 PM
3

The more I think about it the more I think the Mythopoetics were right, or at least, ahead of their time.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/06/24 11:50 PM
4

"My friends, you bow for no one" gets me every time.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/06/24 11:44 PM
10

I think it's a legitimate question more broadly about how many people, both men and women to be clear, actually believe this stuff. I would argue that the fact that few people actualize these ideas into actions should send a message.In reality, it's how I personally got out of the trap that the OP is describing. But let me give a different example. How many people deconstruct the people around them through the lens of Patriarchy theory/male privilege/etc.? My experience is very very few, and fra…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/06/24 01:06 PM
6

Another part of it, is that the costs for holding these ideas are simply not the same for all people. People who are more prone to internalize/actualize these ideas will more than likely revolt from them, and if they do embrace them, it'll be in a very unhealthy, self-destructive way. Where was these ideas are much safer and much less costly for those who view themselves as essentially being above this stuff, that they're better, more evolved. The ego, the hubris... The narcissism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/06/24 01:29 PM
7

I'll be honest, I agree, but I also take it away from Capitalism per se. Because I look directly at academia, I look at its history as essentially being a gatekeeper for socioeconomic status, that's the world where much of these ideas come from. As such, to acknowledge the role that SES bias plays in our society is essentially to condemn itself. And people generally don't do that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/06/24 01:27 PM
6

I would argue that if you don't feel that way about the men closest to you, maybe your ideas are unhealthy and you need to rethink them, into something that you would apply to the men closest to you. That's one of the big reasons things got so toxic IMO. My own personal view on this issue is both types of activists are applying critical concepts of power in a very toxic way, and as such both I think are doing significant harm. Please note, I strongly believe activists do not represent the people…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/05/24 12:58 PM
16

Yeah this is it. It actually doesn't matter how we express our emotions, but they always have to be in service of other people,not ourselves.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/05/24 02:52 PM
17

A materialist view is probably best, at least that's what I subscribe to. Gender Roles were dictated traditionally by material pressures more than anything. As those pressures changed, the gender roles should and have changed to fit the times.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/05/24 12:33 PM
10

I don't know how common it is, but I've seen a number of relationships where essentially the man going out on his own is something severely limited, to the point where it is a somewhat common part of the Male Gender Role.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/05/24 07:08 PM
3

What does this do? Lessen the power of these public discussions so power can be taken to the back channels. I really mean it, that we need to keep in mind the self-serving interests of the Professional Managerial Class. This isn't even in a they are evil type way, just in a people do not set themselves on fire to keep others warm type way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/05/24 03:38 PM
17

Why? I think the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy will not go away. I think the old-fashioned materialist left is rather marginalized now, and has been since the falling apart of Operation Wall Street, replaced with an identitarian left which, to be blunt, seeks to elevate the managerial/credentialed class over the investment/capitalist class. The Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy freezes out a lot of the facets of power, privilege and bias that are used by this new Progressive left to reinforce the pr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/05/24 11:55 AM
2

You have to give up the concept of power, almost entirely, and focus on the other side of the equation, the expectations and responsibilities. But there's a bit of setting oneself on fire to that, which makes it a hard sell.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/05/24 02:51 PM
3

I think we're in the third "wave" of Red Pill culture. And this is leaving out various flavors of egalitarians, and the Jungian MMM stuff. The Red Pill documentary is the 2nd wave mostly, which is very MGTOW focused. The first wave....honestly I think was just reactionary, and probably the worst of all of them. But the third wave is what I'm talking about here, a reaction to overt enforcement of the Male Gender Role, and looking for something equal and opposite. Fwiw, I'm an egalitarian, but the…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/24 05:06 PM
6

The way I look at it, does someone believe something they don't actualize? The question I always ask to people who claim to believe in Patriarchy/Male Privilege etc. A male friend/relative gets a promotion. Do you congratulate them for their success, or do you reframe it/deconstruct it through the lens of Male Privilege and try to make them see how maybe they didn't deserve it? If you don't do the latter, do you really believe these concepts? I don't think you do.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/24 10:32 AM
8

That would assume that they could do wrong or do harm. I think people use whatever social power they have to prevent THAT discussion.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/24 09:57 AM
5

I don't agree with it, but I don't think the appeal of it can be reduced to simple misogyny or entitlement. Yeah. I'll be honest, I'm very specific with this stuff. I literally think the modern red pill specifically comes from a conflict between FDS people and attitudes "breaking containment" and the late Kevin Samuels. That's the origin and where it comes from. One of the things I argue is if you don't like that modern red pill (and I don't), I don't think you combat it without acknowledging FD…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/24 09:55 AM
11

I'm going to throw my own two cents in, if this feels off to you, I apologize, I'm making some assumptions here, and trust me, I don't mean any of this to be offensive. Frankly, I'm talking about myself here first and foremost. There are those of us that value fairness, reciprocity, etc. above other concerns, and that often leads us in some pretty weird places. Sometimes even destructive places. I actually go as far as to argue that the Modern Red Pill, as I call it is almost entirely based arou…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/24 07:24 PM
3

It's what makes this complicated, right? Too many people like these dynamics to actually do away with them. But as long as these dynamics are in place, the idea that you can ever reach the "No Man" part of "It's All Men Until It's No Men" is foolish and ridiculous. (There's also the idea that politically, zero isn't a real number and it shouldn't be treated as such, due to the concept of diminishing returns). It sounds harsh, and people REALLY don't like the way this stuff sounds, but I think at…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/24 02:35 AM
3

So, I just want to touch on what you said on the end, because I do think it's kinda the point here. Because I do think the controversy is largely around how these ideas are actualized, put into effect. And yes, that can have broad consequences. And while yeah, the way I generally put the TERF/TRA fight is essentially they're seeing if Transmen are excluded or not from the Hammer of Shame (tm) but I think it's more than that, in that it's the Oppressed part of the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/24 01:57 AM
5

Yeah. If men have a moral obligation to not trigger these reactions, when they are the "random man", I don't see an ethical way we can really exist in the world.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/24 04:18 PM
4

As you said, it all coalesces at one final point: dividing, denigrating, and weakening the working class. This part explains why all these neoliberal megacorps are quick to inject identity politics tokenism into everything as well. It perfectly aligns with their agenda because it poses no significant threat to them, and in fact makes a unified and strong working class far less likely to happen. There's just one bit I disagree with here. I don't agree with the "neoliberal megacorp" thing. Not bec…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/24 09:05 PM
7

One of my hot takes is that Modern Online Progressivism as I call it, is basically Cluster B itself. Not only does it attract and protect Cluster B types, but the cultural norms are essentially Cluster B behavior. And this is something that has larger ramifications for society at large that go past the immediate issues. The big example I'd give is that I think this plays a significant role in increasing mistreatment of the working class.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/24 06:16 PM
2

Not all so-called sex positive people are like that, hell I am one, but there's a lot of stuff out there that plays hard to the you only get as much sex positivity as your social status can buy type thinking out there that masquerades as sex-positive. And as they view most men as having low social status...well...you get what you get.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/24 02:45 AM
4

I haven't seen a study on it, but I'd wager good money that the amount men engage in that behavior has plummeted over the last decade or two.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/24 07:48 PM
6

The idea that so much of that whole mess is basically their fault is obviously a no-go area.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/24 11:14 PM
10

It's a luxury belief. If people actually had to view themselves, their family and their friends through these frameworks of power and privilege they would not hold these beliefs, as they'd be viewed as too costly. It's not just this issue. These identitarian models are rarely if ever applied close to home. The big example I give: A friend gets a promotion at work. Do you A. Congratate them and tell them how hard they worked and how much they deserve it, or B. Remind them of their privileged posi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/04/24 08:01 PM
1

Eh, I didn't say they had issues attracting women. I said that it's the DT traits that make them attractive, and they are lacking in lots of different areas, or at least that's how they perceive themselves.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/24 05:44 PM
5

Social worth is almost entirely external which is my point. In order to combat that there needs to be some dramatic social and cultural changes. As an example, public or big wedding ceremonies should be seen as gauche or even reactionary. Valentine's Day go the way of the dodo bird. Those sorts of things. Things that really downplay romance and romantic relationships in our society. And for the former part...the self-worth part...I don't know how you do this without it going into one of the two …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/24 05:42 PM
7

Yeah this tracks for me. Men who see themselves as relatively unattractive in other means, but are able to leverage Dark Triad traits into a sort of "hack", will be incentivized to lean in more to the Dark Triad traits, while at the same time, developing a fundamental disrespect towards women. This is actually the reason why I hate the whole "Yes All Men" stuff. Because I do believe what it ends up doing is providing cover for these type of people. It's not that I'm downplaying the potential abu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/24 10:51 AM
14

I think there's a LOT that goes into that on a societal level. A complete downplaying of love and relationships across the board really. I'll be honest, I really don't like that type of advice that kinda ignores all the social and cultural incentives that exist in our society, aimed at men. I really do think it's sort of a demand for this sort of self-harmful level of stoicism, that ultimately is about male disposability, and getting men to accept that we are disposable.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/24 10:45 AM
11

Homophobia, misogyny, racism, etc. The whole 9 yards. One of the important things to understand about what I call "Modern Online Progressivism", I.E. the shift on the left for some from a materialist, class based politics to an identitarian, power based politics, is that a big part of how they perceive their avenue for power is the ability to deny the out-group the protections that they are advocating for. It's always been that way, since day 1, being someone who watched this culture grow from t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/04/24 10:41 AM
19

For what it's worth, I think that's much of the conflict over a whole lot of relationship issues. Should we deconstruct women and femininity in the same way we've deconstructed men and masculinity over the last few decades? I think it's telling that the general response out of the mainstream is a big hell no, that shows how much I think people know at some level that the deconstruction of men and masculinity was a messed up thing to do that hurt people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/24 07:39 PM
6

It really comes down to if people believe in Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomies or not. This breaks a lot of the standard political nomenclature, but to me, that's the difference between Progressivism and Liberalism. The former is all about those strict dichotomies, the latter rejects them in favor of egalitarianism and individualism. I'm strongly anti-Progressive. The problem is some people will mean that I reject economic Progressivism. I don't. I just don't think it's likely alongside cultural P…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/04/24 06:26 PM
7

Maybe I'm even still a feminist? I've just taken the stance that the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy is bad for everybody, except for the status authoritarians and the narcissists out there. Some people would argue that makes me no longer a feminist, while others would disagree. Who knows? But yeah, the problem is the OOGD. (Oppressor/Oppressed Gender Dichotomy)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/04/24 06:23 PM
13

The problem is less that it's true for most women, and more that in a world where harmful behavior patterns for men are frequently deconstructed, on this stuff we basically hear crickets. This gives the impression that this behavior is desired, even if currently not very common.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/24 07:52 PM
21

Academia is built around soft power. If soft power was acknowledged, it would radically alter our view of how things are run, both in academia and in society as a whole. To the point where you could probably argue that soft power is a bit of a "third rail" you're not supposed to touch.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/24 12:14 AM
5

So, I'm going to give the counter-argument on Toxic Masculinity. Please note, I think the term is basically trash now and shouldn't be used. But it wasn't always that way. When it was first used, it was basically about the pressures that men face that get them to act in ways that are harmful to themselves and others. However, what happened is virtually every discussion skipped right over that point, to the effects of those pressures. My saying remains. The thing about Toxic Masculinity is that 9…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/24 08:50 PM
4

> like emphasis on aggression & competitiveness, never be vulnerable, never admit when your wrong, swallow your issues "like a man". Where things go in the shitter, I think, is that there's actually a happy, healthy middle ground for all those things. They're not automatically bad. Even something like never admitting that you're wrong....it's really harmful as well to assume that you're wrong when you're not. The reason why efforts to "reform" masculinity largely have failed is because of the vi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/24 08:45 PM
5

Conservatism says to men: you should be stronger, more masculine, more ambitious, more disciplined, take more effort, and you'll be rewarded (you'll become successful, women will like you more etc.). While it actually often makes things even worse, it looks like caring, it gives men hope. Does it actually make things worse? If say, conservatism were not a thing, poof, gone, or at least something politically marginalized, to the point of being a small third party, does the left actually deal with…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/24 01:45 AM
7

The way I look at it, is Progressive Feminists want to keep the Male Gender Role but make it substantially harder for men to fulfill it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/04/24 04:42 PM
1

Yeah. This is absolutely true. We could break down something like male privilege, but I think this would also break down those other traits that enhance or allow male privilege, but I believe that society at large is very protective of those traits.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/24 07:45 PM
3

I personally think it's pretty simple. If the Male Gender Role is going to continue to be a thing, and it's not going to get roundly criticized...not that men are following it, but the societal enforcement/valuation of it, then frankly, right-wing economics make rational sense for many men. You need the ability to compete, because...well...you need to compete. And I've said, I don't think the Male Gender Role is going away anytime soon. I'm not happy about it, but there's absolutely nothing I ca…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/24 02:05 AM
10

So, I actually think this ties into men's issues a LOT more than you might think. Quite directly, actually. First of all, I don't think there's anything liberal about any of this. It's why I call modern Progressivism quite illiberal in nature. Not eating your own dogfood is very illiberal. Just to be clear, I'm Canadian. But it's pretty much the same thing up here to be honest, little is different. The modern Progressive left, I believe, primarily serves the upper-middle class and the upper clas…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/24 12:26 AM
22

These problems are related, and it stems from the ideas that boys have no, or even negative innate value and it all is about what they can do and provide to others. They're treated like they have no value so they act like they have no value. Simple as that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/24 04:32 PM
29

The problem is that there's some pretty accepted pro-social ways to express some pretty edgelord comments from one direction but not the other. I'm not saying they should be accepted...but that's what it is.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/24 05:36 PM
6

What if I add on to that at least in NA, we've been on a 2-3 decade effort to undermine the self-esteem and self-confidence of young boys and men?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/03/24 03:16 AM
21

It's the women are the prize narrative. This narrative is even pushed by some feminists and a lot of progressive people too. Yeah, it tends to be pushed hard by the more authoritarian and identitarian elements of the left. I think it's a problem on a whole host of levels. It's actually why I say that the Male Gender Role isn't going away anytime soon, because I think a big part of the "women are the prize" narrative is built around an exaggerated and expanded version of the Male Gender Role. It …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/03/24 02:46 AM
3

The egalitarian sphere coming out of TikTok is all pretty good IMO.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/03/24 03:26 PM
19

Yeah. I think the easier way to put it is what we actually have is a male self-esteem crisis. Everything is downstream of that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/03/24 02:12 PM
12

The problem is that intersectionality, in practice, strips out all of that context. I agree that theoretically this is ridiculous and obviously wrong, but I do think you have to take into account the reality of the situation. The issue is more that it's an academic theory, so it's looking to be capital-K Knowledge, and that strips out basically all of the nuance and the context. And then you put on top of that, adding the context can potentially bring up some very tough questions for people abou…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/24 12:47 AM
1

I've been utilizing a heteronormative complex with a significant queer component as a neutral modeling to analyze the gender dynamics as an asymmetrical dynamically interacting system. This skews the oppressor/oppressed modeling in favor of, frankly, a chaotically interacting dynamic systems modeling. Which has a lot of good parallels in mathematics, physics, and philosophy. My understanding is that queer theory itself relies on the oppressor/oppressed framing, or at least it's about breaking do…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/03/24 10:11 PM
8

I think this issue is very difficult, and it's one that requires quite a bit of nuance, and that often is an impossible stance to take. I think it does come down to the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy in a lot of ways, and because men's rights don't go with that dichotomy, I don't think a model of Trans rights that also goes with that model is applicable either, if that's what's being demanded. It's not that I'm anti-Trans, I'm not. But I do think ultimately, it's about balancing rights of all int…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/03/24 05:21 AM
3

So let me say, that I think you're correct, that it would be an overwhelmingly good thing if men's issues could be incorporated as a core part of what we think of as gender studies. However, I think to do that, the Oppressor/Oppressed Gender Dichotomy needs to be largely rejected, and I do not think that's going to happen in academia any time soon. I have 3, well, maybe 2 and a half (two are very much related) reasons for it. The first is how much academia is about the search for capital-K Knowl…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/03/24 05:19 PM
1

Generally as a rule people don't set themselves on fire to keep others warm. Its broadly considered an unhealthy thing to do. This is why it's always safe to assume that power will be used to one's own benefit, or at least not to one's own detriment. This is why I think power has to be negated as much as we can, especially if the hope is universalist.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/24 03:35 PM
1

Let me be clear, my usage of these terms is not normal, because the normal is based on that linear spectrum. I can't really justify referring to that culture as "Pop Liberalism", talking about enforcement of social dogmas, because there's absolutely nothing liberal about it, right? That's why we need a different term to differentiate it, other than just a matter of degree. If only for this one reason. Modern Progressivism, or whatever you want to call it, simply isn't going to work for everybody…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/02/24 03:32 AM
5

So, I'm actually don't think this is the case in THIS instance. I'm not actually sure it's the neglect of men's issues. I actually think it's very much reactionary, and I don't actually mean that as a pejorative per se (although I don't like that way of thinking), it's just an explanation. So talking about Tate, something I'm going to call Neo-Trad, just to talk about the set of ideas as a whole without singling a specific person out here...where does it come from? Before all this Neo-Trad stuff…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/02/24 09:24 PM
8

I'll be honest, I don't really like the whole "white feminism" thing, because I feel like it misses what it really is. I understand why people use that term, because certainly it does happen all textbook like...but I find often when people are using the terms, it's more broad than just race. Generally it has to do a lot with class, both social and economic, privileges and the people involved simply not wanting to give those up.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/24 09:27 PM
3

I live in an extremely liberal city with super progressive people, so if you don't then maybe you would not see that. As someone who actually did that sort of thing, you know, turned down jobs, minimized my social contact, generally just kept to myself and was very aware of what people said about my impact on other people...I don't see it. And when I talk to Progressives about my experience, they straight up say nobody actually does that. Now maybe people talk about it in a not-serious sense...b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/24 07:32 PM
4

There are downsides to those things that didn't exist 20 years ago. That's the problem with those models, they're treated as evergreen and never changing, when things do actually change and evolve. I'm not saying the upsides outweigh the downsides or are even close, but it's not 100-0, which is often assumed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/24 04:14 PM
14

So this is really why I'm anti-Progressivism, not so much in the sense that I think it would be negative for me (although I think it would be) but in the fact that I think it's unworkable because you can't even get the most committed adherents to actually buy in to it in a significant degree, because of obviously how harmful it is. To me, it's less about the double standards between groups, and actually more about judging things based on social status/network status (friends/family). To put it b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/02/24 01:13 AM
5

So, I used to be a mod, and I actually quit over this issue. The TL;DR is that I thought that rules should be enforced the same across the board, and other people (correctly, to be clear) thought that cut out Progressive Feminist thought and theories that were steeped in negative generalizations about men. Just to be clear, I'm very much anti-Progressive in all of this. I still think liberal or choice feminism is more or less correct, at least in the past. I don't think non-identitarians need to…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/02/24 06:34 PM
2

Ah, I might have been confusing. What I'm saying is "Teaching men who don't have enough of this stuff to be more self-confident and assertive" is actually undoing those attempts to reform masculinity. Or at least it's going in the opposite direction.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/02/24 01:15 AM
1

Honestly, a lot of people took the Zoe Post as a proto-Me Too documents. That was my wife's reaction at least (who was quickly harassed/ostracized for that opinion) Gamergate's big sin IMO was challenging network/social power. I'm not going to say that there was no abuse/harassment or whatever, but it certainly was not a one way street. What's the phrase, don't go to war with people who buy ink by the barrel? That's really the big mistake. Unfortunately it's not going to go away because it's the…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/02/24 09:37 PM
6

So, to give my 4/5 cents about this. Just to give a bit of personal background, I view myself as haven gotten VERY lucky, or I'd be in that camp. Happily married, long distance relationship, basically she took all the first steps needed. But I've never really been on a date. Never asked a woman out. Never really had any of those experiences. And I feel like I completely lack the ability to do so. And I do think it largely has to do with actualizing harmful ideas about masculinity, more than anyt…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/02/24 09:21 PM
3

That is a heteronormative structure. Not a patriarchal one. There's a REASON why it's heteronormative. I would actually argue that it's all very materialist, and it's why I reject both the ideas of patriarchy and matriarchy in this context. Historically, pre-Industrial Revolution, high-reproduction societies simply outcompeted low-reproduction societies. And truth is, this isn't just societies, this goes down to the town level, between families. I'm not saying the heteronormative stuff is good o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/02/24 02:44 AM
5

First of all - you've referred to feminism as a right wing hate group. Not just here but in another conversation I saw you in too recently. Let's start there. You have absolutely no basis to say that feminists are "right wing" just because they are feminists I'm going to make an attempt to unpack this. I actually don't think feminism is right wing, to be clear, but I do think there are reasons why the perception isn't THAT out of line, even if I think it's incorrect. It's part of something much …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/02/24 02:08 PM
5

I think quite a few feminists are correct to point out that the patriarchal worldview doesn't benefit men. The problem with feminists is that... they couldn't provide a better alternative. The better alternative is out there. I have to throw credit out there to YetAnotherCommentator who I first got the idea from. Gender roles, traditionally, revolve around the requirements of childbirth. It's as simple as that. In a pre-industrial age, this really limited what women could do in the context of a …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/02/24 05:14 PM
10

They generally choose to see it as homophobic and transphobic rather than misandry. Yeah which makes no sense. But they don't understand that you have to change the perceived incentives. People, generally speaking, don't set themselves on fire to keep others warm. They do react to what they see around them, they follow the incentives. The Male Gender Role itself is probably the biggest oppressive force that exists in terms of sex/gender today, even for women, as to be blunt, I do think that tryi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/02/24 04:10 AM
52

The Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy is a complete 100% block on any issues involving men at this point. Sure, there might be some things done in parallel politically, but generally, if any O/O language comes into play, that's basically it. What might be controversial here, is that I follow this up with that at this juncture, the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy is about an 80% block on issues facing women. So it's not like it's all peaches and roses on the other side either, tbh. I'm not saying it's …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/02/24 01:35 AM
1

It's not capitalism. Or at least replacing capitalism isn't an automatic solution. What do I mean by that? Consider this scenario. First of all, let's make it clear, the Male Gender Role does not go away. We're assuming it stays in place, the same expectations placed upon men as always, if not continued to be ramped up like it is today. However, let's do a best-case scenario for a post-capitalist society. We actually successfully combat inequality. Wages are fairly flat across the board. Maybe y…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/02/24 11:04 PM
1

As someone who fights through it, I don't really see how the idea that men are innately horrible people who don't deserve anything they get helps anybody. Now, I don't think it's the whole left, I'm largely talking about modern identitarian Progressivism here as opposed to a more system/individualist based Liberalism, but I don't see how you're going to get the former to advocate for the oppressor anytime soon, especially with Progressivism becoming more and more culturally and politically domin…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/02/24 10:30 PM
14

The reality is, to talk about men's issues we need to talk about class, both social and economic. My argument is that talking about social class is entirely verboten, which is why you get the kneejerk reaction against this stuff, or frankly, anything non-identitarian in nature, anything that breaks the strict oppressor/oppressed dichotomy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/02/24 02:33 AM
5

To be clear, my argument is that the goal is using this stuff to essentially monopolize the managerial class and increase its power, especially relative to the production class. A big part of it is using these gatekeeping techniques to keep outsiders out who can disrupt these processes because they still value the production class.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/02/24 02:30 AM
15

Whatever increases the power of the managerial class is what they want.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/02/24 05:55 PM
42

The problem is the perception that the alternative is worse. To be clear, I'm on the left. I think we're quickly moving to a point where the math and the structures just don't work. But do I have a place in a post-capitalist world? Probably not, to be honest. What are the chances we get a non-identitarian, merit-based culture after capitalism? Not very good, unfortunately.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/02/24 04:34 PM
11

I'm not in the camp blaming Tiktok for this stuff, I don't think it's unique to that platform, to be clear. But it's obvious that there's something very unhealthy going on in terms of how some women are being socialized these days. Both for themselves and the people around them. One of the arguments often made is "Feminism helps men too". But I'd argue there's a counter to that, in that versions of feminism that are based around a strict oppressor/oppressed dichotomy and deny the agency, power a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/02/24 12:43 PM
2

2012-13. As someone who watched a lot of this stuff go down (I actually abandoned Progressivism during Elevatorgate when I realized people were power-mad and hypocritical) and actually saw the toxic cultures before that being integrated into this new culture....yeah. And then the whole Atheism+ culture was adopted by a lot of people for the response to GamerGate and that's when everything really went to shit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 04:59 PM
1

I am left wing, to be clear. In fact, let me state that I'm not happy about anything I'm about to say, and I wish it was different. I'm taking a sort of realist view on this, because frankly, I'm strongly pluralist and as such I tend to want to steelman/starman other people's views. The problem is the Male Gender Role. I think another part of the problem is that the Male Gender Role, as it seems to a lot of people, is going in the wrong direction right now. It's becoming more strict, more enforc…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 01:55 PM
2

That it has been associated with the right is baffling to me. It's not a Progressive cause. It's much more a liberal cause. (small-l). If you look at modern Progressivism and it's reliance on a strict Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy, obviously men's rights is not in sync at all. The idea that men can be downtrodden is verboten. And you see very little actual concern about other facets of power, privilege and bias. (I've argued that the rise of Modern Progressivism with these ideas has largely been…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 01:43 PM
1

For me its endocrine related, not cultural. My belief is we have to treat these things as two separate things. Because they're not the same. I think they need different treatments. The former group, transition and the latter group therapy, and frankly, deprogramming. My argument to be clear, is that I think a lot of the stuff we push back against here, the Progressive model of Gender and Power, is actually very harmful for people to internalize. So people who are vulnerable to internalization/ac…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 01:39 PM
1

Feminism is a distraction from class distinction, and is therefore right-wing! I don't think that's the case. I personally believe that the belief in hierarchal structures is an authoritarian thing more than anything. Authoritarianism relies on hypocrisy to a certain degree, as people with power don't actually want to live under the rules they're dictating for others. Now historically, we generally had an anti-authoritarian left to an authoritarian right, and that's how people tried to sort/posi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 01:35 PM
2

Is the loss of understandability worth the increased nuance and granularity? I'm not actually sure you need a Conservative/Progressive axis. Just to be clear, there's one thing I would absolutely add to the political compass. I'm not sure how to measure it exactly, but I know it's important. I'd add vectors. In reality, we're not "dots" on the political landscape. We have preferences in terms of what direction we'd like things to go in. So basically an arrow pointing to what direction that is, I…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 01:26 PM
3

A lot of this can be fixed if you look at least a 2d political landscape rather than a 1d one. So the class distinctions thing I would argue comes from the Authoritarian, "Up" part of the landscape. So you can have this on the left, center and right. While the "down" seeks to eliminate those distinctions. I would argue that men's rights is strictly a "down" project.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/24 04:53 AM
9

One thing I'll say is "Can" and "Want" are two entirely different questions here. Do I want to integrate Feminism into a cohesive whole? Yes. Is this likely to be possible, given the dominance institutionally of Progressive forms and culture and the reliance on a strict Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy? No its not. And it's out of our court to change, unfortunately.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/02/24 12:57 PM
3

Does the "they" here mean men in general or feminists in general? Honestly not even just feminists. I'm talking straight up Progressives more broadly, because it's not just gender issues, right? Race, sexuality, whatever. People just don't apply these concepts to their own lives or the people around them in a self-critical way. If they're not also working on themselves and aren't willing to call you their friend, then you just have to ask yourself how far you're willing to go for their approval.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/02/24 11:49 PM
11

I feel like the actual story here goes a bit deeper, at least from what I've seen. The wife basically says that she's been getting some pretty negative social influences from "mommy forums" and honestly, from what I've heard, there's a lot of horror stories about how toxic those places can be. I actually do have some sympathy for the person who gets carried away by listening to those groups. This might not be a popular statement, but I do. I do think this behavior IS a form of abuse. Maybe some …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/02/24 11:40 PM
11

I don't think that's always the case, or things are currently that drastic to be clear. But I do think the bulk of social pressure is pushing things in that direction.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/02/24 01:11 AM
3

I agree. Which traits do you have in mind? When I read that, I thought of the OCEAN model in psychology, and I could see where you're coming from if that's your line of thinking. Something like high in extraversion, low in neuroticism? Yeah. Those are big examples I think. But even across the board, it's something we probably should be more understanding of. Part of the reason I think feminism has the potential to do a lot of good is it does take into account things like economic and personality…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/02/24 01:08 AM
5

I don't think all of feminism is currently unnecessary in that, without a strong egalitarian movement right now, women's concerns might be forgotten. We still have a long way to go in addressing and working through certain concerns. Failure to identify health issues in women comes to mind. To reply to the above comment as well, there's one article that lives in my brain that explains this. It was an article on The Guardian talking about the feminist books one should reads. You basically have a b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/02/24 03:29 AM
7

See, I'm someone who in the past DID take the rhetoric seriously. And the common reaction I get was that you were never supposed to do that. You never were supposed to take the whole male privilege thing and actually apply it to your own life (or the people around you) in a deconstructive way. Now, to the faceless outgroup? Sure. That's the goal. But not to yourself and the people around you. It's simply too destructive and obviously laughable (and clearly extremely hypocritical).
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/02/24 03:17 AM
13

That brings back a bit of memories. I didn't come across that site to later on, but I do remember Hugh. He promoted himself as a promoter of an "Ethical PUA" something that I do think is needed to some degree, at least for some men out there. But I mean to me it always comes down to the same thing, right? People will hold on to the oppressor/oppressed gender dichotomy, and kayfabe models of politics until the end. It's next to impossible to get people out of that mode. The reason for this, I bel…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/02/24 03:09 AM
5

Its very important to note that these are absolutely luxury beliefs that are not intended (by the in-grouo) to be internalized or actualized. If people felt pressure to live up to these ideas most people would drop them in a heartbeat.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/02/24 12:32 PM
6

The more accurate way to put it, is that feminism has become distinctly more illiberal and even anti-liberal over the last few decades. I actually think that links to changes on the left more broadly and the rise of modern or Pop Progressivism. Liberal Feminism, frankly, is still fine. There's not a lot of problems with it and in fact I agree and would identify as such. The problem is that it's really the minority at least in terms of influence as compared to more Progressive versions of Feminis…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/02/24 10:54 PM
9

I think there's one more point of it. I think the younger you go, the higher "price" you are paying for the search for equity. There's not much interest in actually handing older employees their pink slips to make way for younger staff (and frankly, it's illegal in a lot of cases) so you have a situation where basically the cost of these changes are falling almost entirely on a subsection of the population, that being younger people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/02/24 10:49 PM
8

It's weird, in both these things are incompatible worldviews, but they are fundamentally compatible with each other. I guess more accurately, they're the equal and opposite reaction of each other.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/02/24 10:47 PM
2

The problem is that helping men escape traditional gender roles might simply be too difficult an ask. Which sucks, to be clear, I'm not a fan of this, but I also think that bashing your head on a proverbial brick wall is really bad as well. The question is that is there a way to have reciprocity and respect for men in a way that doesn't involve bringing back an overly restrictive and frankly, kinda useless female gender role? That doesn't meant that there can't be pushback against the Male Gende…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/24 11:44 PM
13

Yup in the same boat. I've talked to a lot of people about how these teachings need to have "guardrails" to protect neurodivergant and other internalizing personalities from going overboard. Very little interest I've found from people who demand that sort of teaching/education. There's a very real "we can do no wrong" defensiveness going away, and frankly, going after the bottom in terms of self-esteem and confidence is seen as a feature, not a bug.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/24 08:28 PM
6

A lot of people are rightly pointing out that it’s only a tiny percentage of men…. but they’re getting downvoted to oblivion. It is a tiny percentage of men. This is why I think most men, are basically in positions where we absolutely can't do anything about it. We simply don't see it. Not because we're blind to it, but because it doesn't happen around us. Speaking for myself, I've had more street harassment aimed at me, than I've seen street harassment aimed at a woman. And this is someone shou…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/01/24 07:04 PM
7

I've heard the term Paradoxical Filtering used for it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/01/24 01:58 PM
18

It only seems to be in the last 5 years or so that there’s been a wave of societal misandry, and I just find it somewhat ironic that a lot of it comes from people who claim to be on the left. Surely discussing male issues that often get overlooked is a very progressive viewpoint? Not really? I've been watching the rise of the modern Progressive culture over the last decade+ish, since 2011 or so. Really, I think we're talking about how Occupy Wall Street fell apart, is where I'd start it. But as …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/24 09:15 PM
2

tbh i think that in many situations individual men are indiscriminately painted as oppressors as a means to excuse oneself from compassion FWIW I don't think this is the case. Now, I think this happens, but it's a symptom not a cause or a moitive. The reason the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy exists, is largely because it freezes out other facets of power, privilege and bias. These ideas come from academia, by and large, and if you look at the social and status politics that play a huge role in t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/01/24 12:40 PM
12

Just to put my own experiences up front...I consider myself "Incel-Adjacent". I'm actually been happily married for over two decades, however, it was a long distance relationship, and she made all the moves. I've actually never asked a girl out or been on the date, nor do I believe I have the social skills that would be necessary to do so. Similarly, I think "nice guys" are a form of justice sensitivity. I often see justice sensitivity being linked to virtually every form of neurodivergence. Whe…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/01/24 05:18 PM
10

So I am left-wing, but I'm also very much critical of traditional Marxist framing. And here's why. I don't think there's any chance of "international worker solidarity" anyway. Because what we generally think of the workers, is essentially at least two classes (and probably more) with highly competing interests. At the very least, you have the managerial/salary class, and you have the production/wage class. With different interests and pressures and everything on them. The oppressor/oppressed di…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/01/24 12:47 PM
2

A lot of the things that are issues are not Left vs. Right issues. A lot of the things are actually Up (hierarchy, identitarian, authoritarian) vs. Down (individualist, pluralist, open and fluid). It's just that we've been confused because in America (and other places) for so long it's been a Down/Left vs. an Up/Right. Now that we're seeing the rise of Up/Left ideas, it wrecks the whole binary pattern of assumptions. It'll get even more confusing if you ever see a sustained movement on the right…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/12/23 03:31 AM
17

So, I'm not a fan of Peterson, to be honest I think he's an obsessive paranoid, but I do agree with this model that he puts forward. I don't think it's tyrannical...exactly the opposite. What he argues for is a world where we recognize a multitude of competence based hierarchies. Where we recognize that everybody has strengths and weaknesses and we learn to recognize and respect that. I feel like this is the best possible option for our society. One of the problems I have with a lot of leftism (…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/12/23 01:52 PM
1

that is aware of some of the effects of system racism, and/or cisheteropatriachal hegemony, and/or capitalism’s interaction with the other two. They may define it using different words, but the underlying focus is the same. So all these things are essentially reliant on a oppressor/oppressed structure, which is why I boil it down to that. Systemic and hegemony, I believe are the key words here. If those things got filtered out...systemic replaced with systematic or institutional and hegemony....…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/12/23 03:06 AM
3

The best answer to that, I believe, is "awareness" of systems of power in society based around a strict oppressor/oppressed dichotomy, and if you want to get spicy, or a bit more specific, you can add in a desire to enforce belief in this model. In reality power is dynamic and fluid. I'm not claiming it's always...or even usually equal, but that's not the point. There's actually a hell of a difference, just for arguments sake, between belief in a 100-0 split and a 99-1 split. I believe the reaso…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/12/23 03:18 AM
3

The problem isn't feminism. More specifically, the problem is that the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy framework seems to be dominant right now both culturally and institutionally, at least on the left side of things. And why wouldn't it be? This is a framework that protects these institutions themselves from criticism and deconstruction. I think that's the tough part. We're trying to take on something that people feel protects them, and they react very badly to criticism of these ideas, and they …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/12/23 09:44 PM
3

The underlying idea behind all of this is that men can simply convince other men to not act in these ways. The problem is that this behavior is often very much clustered in a way that many/most men have very little actual contact with this sort of toxicity, making us basically powerless to do much of anything about it at that level. The other side of it is that frankly, it becomes the case that there does come some responsibility in terms of recognizing and avoiding those clusters. So we never a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/12/23 03:25 PM
6

So, narcissistic personality disorders, traits and behaviors are something that's kinda been in my face the last few months or so. Maybe year or two, whatever. I do think that these ideas are attractive to people who are particularly high in these things, because of the ability to not apply them to oneself, to live in the hypocrisy and double standards easy as pie. For those of us at the other end of the spectrum....well.... There's no ethical way to be an oppressor, as I tell people. It's very …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/12/23 03:41 AM
25

I won't be surprised if his version of "positive masculinity" is just a repackaging of traditional masculinity only made to benefit women. A heightening of the Male Gender Role but done in a way that's totally exploitative and abusive towards men. I think that's largely what we're talking about here. It's why people like this refuse to actually criticize women who push the Male Gender Role forward. I mean outside toxic masculinity and traditional masculinity. What other types of masculinity are …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/12/23 03:38 AM
11

The second reason is demonizing of masculinity (misandry). Men hear phrases like toxic masculinity and that affects their mind. It lowers their confidence and self-esteem. Women don't want to date men who lack confidence. Many men are afraid of being (falsely) accused of harassment. Some men don't give a shit and they will approach women anyway. So let me explain my own position up-front. I'm happily married, however, I believe that I was absurdly lucky for that to have happen, and I think if th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/12/23 03:29 AM
7

Years ago, I said the canary in the coal mine was articles talking about how horrible it is that women can't find a spouse that makes more than them, that is, when you see substantial critique of these attitudes coming from feminist circles, you know things are changing. I don't think things have changed all that much, although certainly the type of content I'm thinking about has expanded with the advent of social media. To me it's essentially the same canary in the coal mine, when you see signi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/11/23 09:20 PM
12

Yeah, I'll go back to my takeaway from that conversation as well. Which really hasn't changed. I actually do think she means well. The problem is that the language/culture that the ideas are based on are still really bad, and really still promote some pretty nasty stereotypes about men that are increasingly untrue, even if you're trying to change what you perceive as the reality of those stereotypes, it's still promoting the stereotypes. 2023 me adds one other thing. I think any discussion of ma…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/11/23 03:10 AM
45

The problem is how much people hold on to the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy. If people let that go, it would be one thing, but people do hold on to it so much, I'll be honest, I actually don't think it matters what MRA's do or say, it really is a much more base issue.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/11/23 03:03 AM
3

Find the quiet guy, or the guy in the middle of a group of other guys, and let him know you are interested. That’s the way to get a quality guy. That's probably really good advice.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/11/23 10:09 PM
61

The Good Men Project has a history of being really bad, because it does largely come from that whole oppressor/oppressed dichotomy PoV, and that is one that largely is healthy for nobody to be honest. I don't think the piece is terrible, and has some redeeming qualities, for example, acknowledging that bad behavior is done by a small minority of men. But I think it needs to go further. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? There …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/11/23 02:28 PM
24

Yeah, I agree with that. But here's the thing that I think is missed, and what really makes people really angry. There was supposed to be a way out, a way to make yourself better, to raise your social status. And that was to reject masculinity. To reject the Male Gender Role, to reject the expectations that the world places on men, to find your own path. And that way out didn't work. Worse than that, actually, in that it made you more of a laughingstock. That's what I think we're dealing with he…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/10/23 12:54 AM
30

We don't do well with actually helping neurodivergent people, full-stop end of sentence. I think everything else is just down the road of that. I still maintain that Inceldom...the Political Inceldom they're talking about here comes from a simple place really. There's certain types of people that bought into the rhetoric that society/culture was going to change and they had to change along with it. And when they did, because frankly, neurodivergence doesn't play well with the Male Gender Role, i…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/10/23 11:36 PM
2

This is my view as well, although there's some huge caveats there. I don't think we need or even necessarily want that production maximization system for women. With the advent of the industrial revolution, better health care and more child longevity, the use of the female gender role is really suspect. But at the same time...we really can't say the same thing for the male gender role. Listen, I'm not happy about this. If I could snap my fingers and get rid of the male gender role I absolutely w…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/10/23 12:21 AM
10

The problem is that there's no single Feminism, right? There's all sorts of different kinds out there. But I would argue it all comes down to this simple question: Do power dynamics follow a strict oppressor/oppressed dynamic or are they fluid and multidirectional? To me, this is the big conflict on the left, and there's a lot of ramifications of these beliefs that actually have pretty significant effects on policy and institutions. This to me, is the big difference between Progressive and Liber…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/10/23 05:08 PM
2

I'm actually comparing my experiences with a lot of college level athletics. I do maintain that just because it's possible, it takes more time to reach and maintain that level in e-sports.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/10/23 04:07 PM
4

Yeah. People don't understand the dedication and practice it takes to get to that level. This could be wrong, but I'm going to say it. I think it takes more time and effort than conventional sports. Edit: Let me make that clear, I'm not downplaying conventional sports. I can imagine a swimmer getting up early, doing a 2 hour practice, then say hitting the gym after school every day. That's a good 3 hours. But for sure, the people who reach the top in e-sports you're talking much more than that, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/10/23 01:45 AM
2

It makes sense, but I don't think it's correct. Materialism is essentially the idea that if people's basic material needs are met, it will free them for other pursuits, either revolutionary or towards personal happiness. That's really all it is. When I say I'm a materialist, aesthetically, what I'm saying is I could live with basic needs met and I'd be OK with it. However, what I actually argue is that most people are not materialists, aesthetically. Social hierarchy and competition is much more…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/10/23 10:57 PM
16

You can't spell empowerment without power. My big criticism of modern Progressive politics is how things are just about power. There's no actual right or wrong, just power dynamics.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/10/23 02:23 PM
4

To say that that's what they are lacking, is to only see the outer pseudo-empathetic layer, which is to fall for their gimmick. The writer is responding to them if as if they are weak and stereotypically feminine which is not the case, that's just the face they show when needed. He's falling for their toxic empathy. He's walking into their trap when he says that, because now they can disregard the entire argument as being sexist. So, to be clear, the writer, Freddie deBoer, is very much a strong…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/10/23 12:45 AM
2

I think it's possible that there's a sort of horseshoe theory thing going on, and it's much more complicated, that you essentially end up at the same place with both these socializations. That these expectations...either of you being wonderful or you being awful are so difficult to actually live up to that they become self-destructive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/10/23 01:42 AM
6

Obligatory link. https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tell-me-what In any case, for me it's pretty simple, how to define it. It's the belief in strict oppressor/oppressed power dynamics based on strictly identity factors. Maybe you go a step further and say as well that it's enforcement of said belief, maybe you don't. In any case, I just call it Progressivism or Pop Progressivism or Cultural Progressivism. Just Progressivism in general, for that sort of left-authoritarian id…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/10/23 01:40 AM
13

I have a lot of the same "burn it all down" impulses sometimes, to be honest, but it really won't do any good. The problem is that there's not just one type of man in the world, not one type of masculinity, and the inability to make distinctions between the different types is actually self-defeating from a feminist perspective, because it's missing what the actual problem is. It's like the whole M&M's analogy thing, right? That some of them are poisoned and you don't know what ones? But...if you…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/10/23 03:15 PM
15

"Systemic" itself does not exist. The world is not that clean and easy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/10/23 10:20 AM
8

I don't think it's necessarily all feminism, I don't think it is to be clear, but let's be honest, this is something more maintained by feminists than by opponents of feminism, who I think are looking to freeze out other facets of power, privilege and bias through rejecting Liberalism and Individualism. I would say certainly it's that hierarchical view that's the problem, it's why I say Critical or Progressive forms of Feminism are the problem. If they're more Liberal....then they tend to reject…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/09/23 06:06 PM
1

You most certainly can raise your daughter to be aware of and reject this dynamic, in fact I think it's a good idea, something I'd do myself. But you can only do that if you're aware that it exists. Maybe we can do more with a broader approach based around responsibilities rather than power? I'm still doubtful however.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/09/23 05:13 PM
2

It's not that the right wing is harmful to men's rights per se. I think it's wrong to look at this in terms of a simple one dimensional axis, because that's not what is going on. I prefer at least a two dimensional axis. That is, that there's a second axis going up and down, with the up being more authoritarian and collectivist in nature. What I would argue is that anything above center is harmful to men's rights.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/09/23 02:05 AM
3

Personally I’m in the “deconstruct” camp and believe at this point the only pragmatic option is to give it the same treatment femininities have received which is divorcing it from specific roles altogether. This leads to the concepts no longer meaning anything, but in a world with gender equality, I don’t see how they can realistically exist anyway, at least because of the tendency to use them as judgements of behaviour instead of merely descriptions. I think this is just not a reasonable option…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/09/23 08:29 PM
4

Yeah, I think there's room for that sort of 3rd wave manosphere, or say, enlightened modernist redpill in the dialog. That said, divorcing it from relationships is basically impossible. The example I'd give of that sort of thing is Hoe Math (excuse the name, the content is much better. But what it comes down to is along with the need for self-improvement, or at least a part of achieving this is understanding how society fucked up in trying to actively reframe and deconstruct masculinity. At leas…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/09/23 05:07 PM
5

I don't get how internalizing that you are inherently an oppressive person is actually supposed to help anybody. The people who need to hear that message are just going to ignore it and it's going to fall on people who don't. It's something I still struggle with, what if these people are right and everything I have is essentially coerced? There's a reason why some types of people, who lack the ability to externalize onto others, kinda have to oppose these theories root and branch. It's just not …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/09/23 04:53 PM
2

The problem with all those ideas is the epistemology, most specifically the sense of scale. All those things do technically exist...the problem is that they're not universally present, and that's where things go horribly wrong. I do traditionally identify as a liberal feminist, although I agree with pretty much all the issues brought up here as well, so I'm more and more an egalitarian every day TBH. Where I have a critique is in the various Progressive and Critical models that are unable to und…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/09/23 01:42 PM
-3

I'm just going to give my thoughts on this here. They're a bit complicated. What I see out of the modern Progressive left isn't anything material in nature. However, I do think they would accept structures that resemble something communistic, or something with central control. And this comes down to the fundamental flaw with communism, in that it misses an important part of the class struggle, and it becomes a significant vulnerability. There are more than two classes. See, what I think is going…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/09/23 10:52 AM
1

Lindsay is absolutely sincere, even if I disagree with him. He's read all the texts and he takes them very seriously and literally. But here's the question I struggle with. Is James' approach more or less respectful to modern Progressive culture? I actually mean that. Because where I disagree with him, is that I don't think the texts matter one bit, and it's basically a class war between the credentialed salary class and the production-based hourly class. Is this more or less respectful? I actua…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/08/23 01:02 PM
11

There's really no significant interest in actually tackling the Male Gender Role, I.E the demand portion of it. Because of that, all efforts to change male socialization do is hurt good people who actually listen to then.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/08/23 08:08 PM
2

It was taken over by academia. Feminism was just the package it was marketed as. Basically, the economic interests of the hourly wage class and the salary class are not at all the same, and they're often in conflict. It's the latter that's prioritized.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/08/23 10:29 AM
16

See, what I would argue is that poor is generally left entirely out of these types of analysis, and that's kind of the point. The argument I make, is strict oppressor/oppressed dichotomy structures on a limited number of protected vectors basically freeze out everything else, which makes these models relatively low cost for people who either do rely on these vectors/facets or want to some day rely on these facets. Academia, traditionally, was much more about class/status signaling than it is now…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/08/23 02:20 AM
22

That's why I say that the Male Gender Role isn't going away and why anti-masculinity is very much maladaptive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/08/23 08:17 PM
11

For me, it's all about the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy thing. Everything else is downstream of that, basically everything on your list can be derived from this model. The problem is that it's hard to say that it's just folk or vulgar, because the models really do come from the top. Now, to play a bit of Devil's Advocate, you're not actually supposed to believe the models. But this isn't something that's really ever communicated. But my whole take is that these models exist because they freeze …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/08/23 09:52 PM
19

Just to make it clear, I'd actually argue that Nussbaum's original article on objectification is one of the better social science works out there. It's nuanced, couches its ideas, is somewhat non-partisan, and really not that judgmental. Sexual objectification as a concept came after that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/08/23 08:50 PM
10

We need a term for men who have internalized these neo-gender roles and norms. It's the process, not the results. Speaking as a married guy here who struggles with this shit every day.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/08/23 07:28 PM
1

I absolutely understand this. It didn't have to be that way, right? Like, TM could have been framed an entirely different way. But....that would have involved a discussion on women's partner selection choices, to be blunt, and we couldn't have that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/08/23 09:29 PM
1

I think a large contributing factor is the false dichotomy of "left" and "right", as one of the twitter replies noted. Yup. My argument is that if you want to stop this, if you think it's a bad thing, you need to fight against this political binary of strictly right vs. left. Specifically in this case, you have to recognize something akin to what I'd call Progressive vs. Liberal. The former being, on this specific topic, what people would call "Feminism" (Although I think that's overly broad, as…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/08/23 08:11 PM
13

Yup. It's a very real thing. Here's what helped me with it somewhat, although I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a struggle, the wounds cut deep. You have to understand that very few people actually mean any of that. That is, it's not an ideology meant for people with an internal locus of control, more so, it's meant to exist in this theoretical, academic space that's separated from day to day life. It's just not something you're supposed to actualize, because it's inherently unhealthy. I would al…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/08/23 10:20 PM
18

We've simply injected increased social anxiety into a subset of young men, in the attempt to combat Male Gender Roles and norms (which didn't work at all). There's a reason I say healing needs to start with public acknowledgement of this, and that you're not wrong to undo it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/07/23 05:44 PM
4

So, I have some thoughts about this, about what I think is largely going on. I think we're increasingly coming to grips with the idea that the Male Gender Role isn't going away anytime soon, if anything, it's probably stronger than ever. And yet, men's ability to actually perform said gender role is something that's been pushed back against for the last few decades. The set of responsibilities and incentives that men face simply isn't going to change. We don't have the stomach for it. And I do t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/07/23 02:36 AM
5

There's some level of classism here, like most academic work especially in the social sciences where it's most vulnerable to this bias. Like, I can understand someone who has a really comfy job, something they really want to do, frankly, 8 hours of work isn't REALLY 8 hours. So they can devalue that work. But on the other hand, there are people working really crappy, tiring jobs, both physically and emotionally, and frankly, that 8 hours is more like a 10 or 12 hour toll on the body and mind. Fr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/07/23 03:52 PM
8

If her husband mows the yard for 3 hours in the hundred degree sun like the stupid work mule he is, then she just worked an extra hour more than he did and he isnt sexually attractive. No, the husband worked for 0 hours because it's considered gardening which is considered to be a hobby. Yes, I've seen a study that said this, but it was from a long long time ago. (People who might know my name know I've been around this stuff a long time)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/07/23 03:48 PM
5

This isn't about women, per se. There's a lot of men who just don't get it as well. My argument, is why it's so difficult, is to talk about men's issues, you're basically talking about people who are underprivileged for certain reasons, and in that, you're actually pointing out other facets of power, privilege and bias, and that's what people find uncomfortable to discuss, largely because it's harder to externalize away. (And their privileges just happen to work for them) You're bringing in a lo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/06/23 09:26 PM
7

Yeah, I think this is correct. We've socialized this into men in a very counter-productive way, and it just doesn't work. Acknowledging that it doesn't work is the first step towards fixing that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/06/23 09:23 PM
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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