I think "toxic masculinity" may lack construct validity. I don't think the term measures what people say it means.

xaliadouri · 2025-04-18T01:20:30+00:00

I'd say the problem isn't the term "toxic masculinity", but rather the context it exists in: pop discourse, with its low standards. For example, they throw around the word "patriarchy", but can't actually tell you what it means! Very unprincipled and inconsistent.

We can imagine a better morality-based discourse. And sure, maybe sometime we'll discuss something we'd call "toxic masculinity", but it'd be in a context where we also examine women's complicity in reproducing it.

Fair-Might-5473 · 2025-04-17T23:08:20+00:00

It's a lazy to generalize certain bad behaviors in men, but much like Feminism and their terms, they always shift their goal post. It's similar to the words "Insecure" and "Confident. If they like you or what you do, you're "confident". If they don't like you or what you don't do, you're "insecure".

In the end, I wouldn't even consider these terms valuable to any conversation as they really don't give any indication to where you want, ever. People can deny it all they want, but in 2025, it's still the majority of men asking women out. Women. love. gender roles (masculinity). Just not theirs.

SvitlanaLeo · 2025-04-18T09:16:16+00:00

"Men, stop keeping negative emotions to yourself and not sharing them with others. That's toxic masculinity."

"Okay, let's talk. We're hurt by misandry."

"Oh, stop whining. It just hurts your fragile feelings, it is not a serious problem."

frogjokeholder · 2025-04-17T23:02:38+00:00

I reject it as a valid phrase. No interest in discussing it. To me, it's bullshit- I like to move on to something else.

FightHateWithLove · 2025-04-20T13:28:39+00:00

I see it as another motte-and-bailey term.

The less used but more defensible version of "Toxic Masculinity" has some nuance and takes into consideration the external pressures placed on men by society that lead them to suppress their emotions, disregard their own safety and yes, sometimes display dominating behavior for social clout.

But most of the times it just gets used as men-doing-bad-things, and there's no real exploration into why some men behave that way. It just becomes "Hey, men! You're being toxic! Stop being toxic, men!"

It would be like if there was an uptick in discussions on the unrealistic beauty standards women face, but it was framed entirely as women just being vain. Like, "Hey women, stop wasting so much money on make up and clothes and quit starving yourselves!" without really addressing the reasons that might be leading them to do those things.

Afraid_Discussion753 · 2025-04-18T10:46:13+00:00

Astute OP, but I'd go a step farther and say it lacks construct itself. The term toxic masculinity is rarely, if ever, defined. When it is, it's vague at best, and kafkaesque at worst.

When you see how it is frequently employed, it becomes clear that this is not an accident, it's a feature. The term is an ideological bludgeon, or ideological self-flagellation whip.

Maybe once a upon a time the term "toxic masculinity" might have been a valid and or useful term in academic discourse, provided it was counterweighted with "toxic femininity", and both had rigorously defined and principled definitions that lent them legitimacy as opposed to rhetorical weight, but that well has been well and truly poisoned.

No-Ground604 · 2025-04-18T03:24:43+00:00

haven’t seen anyone make this point before… i gotta think on it

Lets_Remain_Logical · 2025-04-18T14:02:32+00:00

Sooo, it's mainly use to demonize men instead of discussing concrete points or traits. One generic expression for anything a man-hater could use to reinforce their illusion. But, women are as assholes as men. If this is not taken into consideration as a reference, then we are making a statistical arror. Men are bad? OK let's discuss what are they doing wrong, and let's discuss what are we on doing wrong and see if it's only men. If it's both men and women... Then toxicity isn't gendered..... Assholes are toxic.

Former_Range_1730 · 2025-04-19T08:24:33+00:00

Those people who use that term can't prove what positive masculinity is. Making the term "toxic masculinity' nonsensical.

addings0 · 2025-04-18T00:58:15+00:00

Women don't communicate or articulate their issues very well, so they cling onto whatever internet term makes them feel correct. People don't acknowledge a truth, they cannot exploit.

Codexe- · 2025-04-19T04:34:12+00:00

Interesting. I like that term. I always look at things like that, but i've never had a word for it. Construct validity.

I think you're exactly right. Anything can be "toxic." Masculinity, femininity, maturity, immaturity, any kind of cultural group identity or trait, could be twisted into a poisonous usage.

I think sometimes people use toxic masculinity as if it's a synonym for masculinity. On the other hand I think a lot of people treat their own masculinity as if it's toxic without necessarily using those words. Meaning they themselves think that it's bad to be masculine.Or in order to be masculine, they have to be a bad person. But they continue to behave that way.

So for instance, somebody gets a job as a truck driver, and they act like an asshole and treat everybody like shit. They think they're being masculine, and they think being masculine means being an asshole. So they don't use the term toxic masculinity, but they seemingly agree with the idea that masculinity is being toxic. They don't really exhibit any sort of positive masculine traits. Or whenever they do, they make sure to couple it with some sort of negative trait like insulting people, or being aggressive in general.

And I don't think that's limited to men. I think there are a lot of women who like to portray masculine traits without necessarily using terms like toxic masculinity.

beowulves · 2025-04-18T00:28:52+00:00

Toxic masculinity is basically what a woman calls a man she can't control. I've known guys with little dick energy but they basically only get away with it if they have power in their circle people just indulge it. That's not patriarchy or anything of that sort, it's usually the women who validate it.

My_Legz · 2025-04-19T13:31:27+00:00

It is worth remembering that toxic masculinity means boys that grow up in communities without men and don't have a direction from older men how to develop their masculinity.

In fact, when the term started being used by wider feminism it wasn't as accurate as it is now looking at how many boys grow up without male role models.

Rare-Discipline3774 · 2025-04-17T23:27:39+00:00

Masculinity cannot be toxic, it is everything that is logical, physical, and subtle in emotion.

Femininity is everything communicative, social, and emotion forward.

Downvote all you want.

But, that is true when everything called feminine and masculine are broken down to the cores.

Everytime a girl looks at a butterfly and calls it pretty she is exhibiting masculinity. Because she's appreciating the aesthetic, and beauty for beauty's sake is purely physical it requires no emotion or communication.

If we must say they have toxicity, we must ascribe behavior, philosophy, etc, and our reasoning.

Ie:

All non-defensive violence is feminine because it's purely emotional and communicative, even non-defensive physical violence is emotional and communicative before anything else.

Whereas toxic masculinity might be said to happen when logic fails to prevent stupidity or is poor in general.

Title	I think "toxic masculinity" may lack construct validity. I don't think the term measures what people say it means.
Author	aslfingerspell
Upvotes	117
Comments	34
Date	April 17, 2025 6:17 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1k1jqvj/i_think_toxic_masculinity_may_lack_construct/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-think-toxic-masculinity-may-lack-construct.1549920 https://theredarchive.com/post/1549920

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