Pretty busy week for posts.
This is one of the more sad examples of probably well-intentioned complementarians arguing for headship but denying it’s power.
A commenter named “Petrina” appears out of the blue on the chivalry is anti-Christian post with some comments.
Her: “A correct marriage analogy is a King and a Queen — the King wields authority over the queen and the rest of the kingdom. Instead chivalry is a knight trying to impress and serve the queen. Remember, chivalry is a knight’s code and not one that a king would follow. The knight is to put the Queen up on a pedestal and serve her whims….”
Don’t you think it is anti-Christian that you refused to present the correct analogy, which is the one between Jesus Christ and the church, that God uses to describe the relationship between the husband and wife?
Isn’t it anti-Christian not to relate husband and wife relationship to Christ and the church, the way Ephesians 5: 22-33 does?
So many men appear to attempt to hijack the gospel and make it about themselves. They want it to suit their fancy, but it is about God, and God’s way of doing things.
God has given men a big responsibility to reflect Jesus Christ in their marriages. If we read our Bibles, we understand the responsibility there. No control, but pioneering in righteousness, leading by example. How strange so many men professing Christianity seem to read the Bible with fleshy lenses on, and their perspective is warped and fleshy. They crave control, dominance, and power and interpret the Bible accordingly.
They still need transformation apparently, because the born-again man of God should accept God’s word and be obedient to it; not use a woman’s submission as a cop-out to him leading by love, righteousness and servitude. A woman submits with her free will; it is not up to a man to try to force it on her.
God does not force people to do anything. Some men don’t want to love selflessly, serve, and obey God. That’s all there is to it.
Plenty men just don’t want to do what God requires of them, and they teach false doctrine and twist the Bible to fit their wishful thinking.
You can obviously tell she got maybe one thing right, but her view is clearly mired in feminist thinking by buying into believing power structures are abusive at their heart. The feminist power language is pretty much gives away her hand.
Another few comments in, it’s clear that there is a sticking point.
Her: “What I said is that she is to do it on her own, because God commanded HER to do it. He did not command the husband to see to it that she does it.”
Me: It is a husbands obligation to God to help her obey — Christ’s love is for the purpose of sanctification. I agree that he isn’t to *force* her to obey, but he should be admonishing her if she is being rebellious, contentious, or disrespectful. Discipline too if it comes to that.
We have the example of Jesus admonishing and telling the Churches that He may have to discipline them in Revelation 2 and 3.
Do you agree that husbands have the God ordained duty to *help* (not force) her submit and obey and to use discipline where necessary? Similarly, that these things are part of the sanctification process? You can answer with a simple yes or no.
I’m curious to see if you will acknowledge this since this example is Jesus Himself “loving the Church” by admonishing them and telling them that He will discipline them.
Might be a hard pill for you to swallow.
Her: “Not a king who is using some kind of control over a queen. A king should treat his queen the way Christ treats the church as well, which is holy leadership, selfless love, harmless; and the queen should submit, the way the church submits to Jesus Christ. Thank God for biblical literacy.”
Me: Yes, Jesus’ love for the Church is quite “selfless and harmless” in that He admonishes them for their disobedience and tells them that He will discipline them if they don’t shape up.
This is another common theme of the complementarianism boomer theology that submission must be “intelligent” and of “a woman’s own free will” and that the husband has no role to play in that. This is not unlike the “agreement” theology where a husband and wife must agree on everything and if they disagree then the husband is the tie break.
Hah, imagine if Jesus had to agree with the Church on His decisions nor couldn’t rebuke and discipline His Church. Ephesians 5 states that “husbands should love their wives as Christ loves the Church” for the purpose of her sanctification.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
The sanctification of wives in their marriages is clearly to help them understand they they need to respect and submit to their wives, and the husband as the head is to help his wife do that.
Her: “You are inserting your wishful thinking and carnal desires into how a husband is to love his wife. The Bible specifies the way that he is to love is the way Christ loved the church and gave himself up for the church.
He mentions nothing about the husband “disciplining” her. Absolutely, it is up to the husband to address sins in her life, but he does not get to discipline her. God does that. A husband doesn’t get to withhold his love or provision from his wife to discipline her. Neither does he get to treat her like a child or spank her.
He helps his wife in the PROPER, God- authorized way. Discipline is not included. So lol, NO, I DON’T agree about that part! 😂”
Me: Revelation 2:2 ‘I know your deeds and your labor and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But you have this, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.’
Revelation 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have no need of anything,” and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to apply to your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne. 22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
In particular,
Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
This examples are pretty clear cut. So now you agree that Christ admonishes and rebukes the Churches and is willing to discipline them?
And that husbands should emulate this example?
Or are you a weasel who tries to wiggle out of what the Bible says about how Christ loves the Church by rebuking AND disciplining them?
Sadly, weasels are weasels…
Her: I am not a weasel. I’m sticking to the word of God and keeping it IN context.
This why people need the Holy Spirit to understand. If I was ignorant and not discerning, I could take what you just showed from Revelation and erroneously apply it to husbands and wives.
The Holy Spirit did not write through Apostle Paul about headship in Ephesians or elsewhere IN RELATION TO HUSBAND AND WIFE, IN THE SAME WAY JOHN WROTE IN REVELATION ABOUT THE CHURCH BEING CHASTENED. You are out of context. It is the husbands duty to lead by righteous, living example, and respectfully address any sins of his wife, while standing firm in truth. He himself ought to be walking right first.
That is all there is to it. I know you are probably disappointed, and like many men cannot accept what real headship means.
In the passage that deals with husbands and wives, God could have mentioned disciplining wives in ANY of them, but notice he doesn’t do it! Husbands are not authorized by God to do it, but plenty husbands authorize themselves to do what they want to do. They lust for dominance, tyranny.
God knows how men are and He didn’t give them authorization for such a thing. That’s just not The kind of relationship a husband and wife have.
She’s not a child, the husband is the greater sacrificer, and often the one in the wrong, stubborn like a wild bull, and the wife is simply responding to his sin, when she sins, in many cases. However, they are both responsible for their own sin.
Good grief. This is why women need discernment and have to live in truth and have standards accordingly. She must know God’s word and His requirements for both men and women BEFORE marriage, so she can REJECT men who live according to their own fantasy and perverted gospel.
Satan himself quoted scripture out of context.
Revelation 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John
Just to be clear, Revelation is Jesus telling this to John, and Revelation 2 and 3 are clearly to the various Churches (“to the angel of the Church of __ write:”). Revelation 2 and 3 are indeed talking about Christ admonishing, rebuking and disciplining the Church in love for the purpose of the Church’s sanctification. Coincidentally, Paul mentions the Christ and Church model that husbands are to emulate in Ephesians 5 is for the purpose of sanctification for both the Church and the wife. Direct context of the passage.
To quote one of the RPC leaders on this topic:
This is why Paul didn’t permit women to teach theology. Yes, John DOES in Revelation (chapter 21, specifically) directly call the Church the bride of Christ – and he does it more unequivocally than any other author does. Also, most people assume Hebrews was written by Paul, which also refrains “For the Lord [Kyrios, the word “Lord” often used to reference Jesus] disciplines the one he loves.”
Whether you believe the parallel extends to discipline or not is obviously for you to research and conclude for yourself. But between the options of (a) seeing how Christ treats his bride and doing likewise with mine, and (b) making up my own system that I think is better … I’m going to go with what I see Jesus doing every time.
This is what complementarians are like folks.
They’re so mired in trying to stick to the letter of the Bible (e.g. headship) but are implicitly or explicitly attempting to marry it with feminism that they twist headship to something unrecognizable in the Scriptures. When they are confronted directly with examples of Christ literally rebuking and disciplining His Church for the exact same purpose of sanctification, they directly claim Satan quotes Scripture out of context and/or that husbands are power mongers. They are the only true discerners of “real headship.”
Sadly, their “loving Christ” is only a neutered dog who is unable to make statements that Christ actually made His bride’s obedience: John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. Likewise, their Christ’s headship has no authority to rebuke and discipline and nor should a husband. This is clearly in alignment with their “agreement theology” which is feminist and egalitarian at it’s heart. Zero authority in headship to do what Jesus sets by example for husbands to do.
I want none of that false gospel.
This is why I have been saying over and over that complementarians are the most insidious out of any of the groups of Christians. At least egalitarians admit they are trying to marry the Bible with culture. Complementarians say they are trying to follow the Bible, but have every excuse in the book even when there are direct examples to the contrary. However, it’s close to Scripture that many are deceived.
