Foseti vs. Obsidian: What Do You Think?

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It appears that Foseti, who I referred to in my post yesterday, has blogged a response of his own. At first I was going to do up a point for point refutation of his post, but then thought, since we’re all in “back to school” mode, and given that the readers here at the O-Files tend to be quite astute, a better idea occurred to me:

Why not present both his post and mine, and ask you, the reader, to do a bit of compare and contrast?

So, here’s Foseti’s post, in response to my own, yesterday:

“The Obsidian grudge match

September 28, 2010 9:38 am

While I was enjoying a weekend away, Obsidian decided to take a sucker punch at your humble blogger.

(At a minimum, internet etiquette demands that if you are going to criticize my views, please quote my actual views instead of putting words in my mouth.)

Background

By way of background, last week, I put up a post criticizing Matt Zuckerberg for wasting $100 million dollars. Obsidian jumped to criticize my view – but interestingly not to explicitly defend Zuckerberg, more on this later – and a heated round of comments ensued.

Feel free to read the comments, but I will summarize them for you.

Obsidian thinks that I don’t hang around enough with black people – this was the main theme of his comments. I live in an area that is roughly 50/50 black and white. My zip code is about 80% black. I have black neighbors, I’ve been to a black barbershop (Obsidian asked), etc. While this exchange was going on, one of my best friends who is in medical school was staying with me – he’s African-American but not black (his parents immigrated from Egypt). In short: black people love me , heh. I have no idea why Obsidian wants to know this stuff, but he asked. I answered for your reading pleasure and to appease his whims.

Slightly more substantively, Obsidian thinks that HBDers offer no solutions. So, I asked Obsidian to define the problem. His answer so far from 30 comments and now a separate post is easy to quote entirely: “”. Surely, everyone has solutions to a problem that is so well-specified!

Of course, since Obsidian won’t define the problem, it’s easy for him to say that others “don’t offer solutions.” After all, it’s impossible to solve a problem that is undefined. Perhaps I do not have solutions, but at least I’m willing to sack-up and define the problem.

Let’s begin.

Problem

The closest Obsidian gets to defining the problem is to steal the definition of the problem from “HBDers.” I think. Here is the relevant paragraph:

Because Black people are inherently, immutably, intractably, intellectually inferior to Whites and Asians. To bolster this point, they cite scholars like J. Phillipe Rushton, Arthur Jensen, Charles Murray and the late Richard Herrnstein; they point to military IQ testing going back a century or so, and the late John Ogbu’s infamous Shaker Heights study, all of which, among a great many other things they contend, that Black folk simply aren’t worth the time and money trying to “save” them, that “closing the achievement gap” is a Fool’s Errand.

Ok. First, this misconstrues HBD. HBD is the belief that on average we see differences in racial achievement in areas where achievement is objectively measurable. HBD says nothing about a specific person of any race. None of the authors or studies mentioned by Obsidian contend that “Black folk simply aren’t worth the time and money.” However, they contend that on average and on measurable planes of achievement, we will see racial disparities. Thinking statistically is hard, but it’s important. Obsidian should at least try.

The problem then is “closing the achievement gap.” Let’s unpack this to be clear. I am taking Obsidian as saying that the problem is: eliminating the disparities between average levels of achievement across various races.

Solution

I offered a solution in the comments, which Obsidian studiously ignored and then largely ripped off. Here was my “solution:”

I would suggest dropping the goal of the modern educational system: making everyone equal. People with low IQs should be given some technical training and sent to work much more quickly (i.e. they don’t all need to go to college). Obviously my “solution” won’t solve the problem – it only formalizes it. The same number of people “drop out” but at least they don’t ruin the schools, waste so many resources and never have a chance to succeed.

I am a formalist . I believe that the problem of making races equal on average is insoluble. Time would be better spent turning lead into gold or building a perpetual motion machine. Thus, I propose acknowledging this reality – accepting the truth of HBD and working from the fact that identical educational systems cannot work for a group with an average IQ of 104 and a group with an average IQ of 85.

Note that my proposal does not “solve” the “problem.” Instead it institutionalizes “the problem.” People with low IQs will be taught basic skills and sent off to work. The achievement gap will therefore persist across races with different IQs.

Interestingly, Obsidian’s solution has the same effect. Here is his solution:

3. Stop glorifying college. Because for so many people, it’s simply not a real option that pays off in a cost/benefit fashion. . . .

6. Bring back the reform schools-look, I get it, some kids are just bad seeds and need serious intervention. Just because you’re poor and down and out, doesn’t give you the right to make everyone else’s lives miserable. Reforms schools have a long and for the most part, pretty decent tradition in this country, and the times have shown us that they’re still very much needed. . . .

Obsidian criticizes HBDers, but it’s nice to see that his solution implicitly accepts the premises of HBD!

Note that under his proposal, people with low IQs (and thus a disproportionate number of blacks) would receive a different education and a shorter education than people with higher IQs.

The result would clearly be a world in which the black-white achievement gap persists. People who have been educated to balance their check books simply will not earn money at the same level as people who are trained to perform neurosurgery. Thus, the achievement gap persists. Obsidian’s “solution” has not “solved” the problem, it has merely institutionalized it and accepted it. Much like my proposal.

Obsidian’s randomness

The problem with arguing with Obsidian is that he fills his post with totally unrelated statements. Let’s take a look at a sample of quotes from his post that have no relation to the topic at hand:

GOP’s “Pledge with America” and the manifesto of the Tea Party

I support neither and I don’t why he brings them up. In fact, I don’t vote, I oppose democracy. This blog proudly supports the restoration of the monarchy – preferably a restoration of the Stuarts . Most HBD blogs have been very critical of the Tea Party, which spends most of its time pandering to media to show that it really does indeed love black people and is, in turn, loved by black people.

My “program” was eerily similar to Obsidian’s and I will point out again that neither one “solved” the problem. Far from it, both accepted that the problem was not going to be solved.

Indeed, by how much so many of them nurture a borderline creepy adoration for Goldwater and Rand, for Libertarianism writ large

I’ve spent the last three weeks criticizing libertarians at every turn. Further, this has no relation to the topic of Zuckerberg giving away his money or improving schools. These statements are completely random.

For one thing, if their argument hinges in whole or in part on the massive amounts of money that we currently spend on inner city schools with precious little to show for it, then they must also be concerned with the cost it will take to warehouse the Darkies in the joint-because invariably, that’s where a lot of these guys (and increasingly, gals) are gonna wind up.

All of sudden we have “an argument” whereas a paragraph prior, we “had no solutions.” I never made the argument that should turn anyone out of school onto the streets. I would also never make the, frankly, racist assumption that those who were turned out would be put in jail, heh. Seriously, I have no idea where this is coming from so I don’t know how to respond. My argument does not hinge on the cost of prison.

“The ‘founding stock’ of this nation” plus Asians is new favorite saying. On one hand, you’re accusing us of only liking our own and on the other you’re acknowledging that this criticism doesn’t apply. All in the same sentence! I heart George Washington (even though I’m a restorationist) and Chinamen therefore I’m racist. Is that the argument? Really?

Of course, Obsidian only makes these points in case he gets argued into a corner. At that point he can point to one of these random, incoherent statements and say “you didn’t respond to my point about Goldwater.” Then, you’ll leave because you’ll pretty sure he’s crazy.

Obsidian

I think it’s clear from his “solution,” his refusal to define the “problem,” and his unwillingness to defend Zuckerberg, that Obsidian agrees with much of HBD’s premises. He just doesn’t like the obvious conclusions. I admit, the conclusions are many ways unpleasant. That doesn’t make them wrong.

Finally, as for the accusation that I am nothing but a critic, I would note that I aspire to nothing more. The world is full of idiots that are happy to take your money in exchange for their “solutions” none of which will actually solve any problems.

So few people are critical in the modern era. As a result, so few problems are correctly defined. Albert Jay Nock identified the particular “problem” that we are discussing over 80 years ago. He told us that an educational system whose goal was equal outcome for everyone could only lead to a world in which everyone was a moron. We are far along that road and this problem , the problem , still remains something that is impolite to discuss. To most it is not even acknowledged. Yet there it sits. Free for all to read.

With good critics so few and far between, I would be truly honored to be considered among them.”

http://foseti.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/the-obsidian-grudge-match/

And here again, reposted for purposes of comparison and contrast, is my post from yesterday:

“Waiting For Bizarro: The HBDers’ “Take” On Education

September 27, 2010 8:43 am

This week the conglomeration of media outlets that fly the NBC banner has decided to focus on the American education system and the challenges it faces. Among other things they have planned, are townhall style meetings, forums and the like, centered around the just-released “Waiting For Superman”, a documentary brought to you by the same folk who made the Al Gore environmental vehicle, “An Inconvenient Truth”. The film reinvigorates yet another round of intense handwringing on a national conundrum, what to do about America’s ailing schools.

Concomitant with all the hoopla this week, Facebook wunderkind Mark Zuckerberg announced that he would be gifting $100M to the Newark NJ schools, where a wunderkind of another sort, Corey Booker, holds forth. His plan, among other things, is to get Booker control of the schools, in the hope that he can continue his trend of citywide reform, which includes an intense focus on the charter schools.

In an age where the school system clearly isn’t working, one would think that anyone willing to put up hard currency would be met with welcome, open arms.

But the nattering nabobs of nativist negativity, the HBD crowd, never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, to coin a famed phrase-in their mind, not only is the Zuckerberg initiative a waste of money, but it’s also a waste of time, for one simple reason:

This was the theme of last week’s postings by Washington DC-based HBD blogger Foseti. He laments Zuckerberg’s master plan here:

http://foseti.wordpress.com/2010/09/23/zuckerbergs-money/

Here’s our erstwhile Oscar the Grouch in realtime’s take on the matter, one Mr. OneSTDV:

http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2010/09/in-newsweek-jonathan-alter-illustrates.html

And of course, HBD-term founder Steve Sailer discusses this issue at least once a week for the past decade.

Note how all of them have one thing in common, as I’ve noted above-all of them have a patently deterministic, fatalistic, view of the educational issue-not only do they say that Black folk are a lost cause, but note that they also don’t list any solutions whatsoever as to what is to be done, other than a kind of HBD version of the recent publishing of the GOP’s “Pledge with America” and the manifesto of the Tea Party-they want basically a return to the way things used to be say, circa 1950 or so, when “separate but equal” was something that worked for the Darkies too!

Before anyone gets anything twisted, let me put it out there right now, that I am hardly anyone’s bleeding heart liberal. I know firsthand in a way that the bulk and mass of HBDers only can imagine in the abstract, what it’s like to live among truly bad seeds, and all kids, of whatever color, ain’t Einsteins in the rough. I get that.

But the problem I have with the HBDers as a group, is that they offer no workable solutions-indeed, these guys seem to delight in either their utter nihilism, or their ability to come up with not only arcane, but completely unworkable programs that no one can or will get behind. Indeed, by how much so many of them nurture a borderline creepy adoration for Goldwater and Rand, for Libertarianism writ large, one gets the distinct impression that either these guys are out of touch with reality, or that they actually like being negative for its own sake.

I leave it to my readers to determine which is which.

Of course, the HBDers, for all their presumed brainpower and forbearance, tends to leave out some very important facts:

That’s just shocking, considering that nearly half of all Newark city highschool students dropout and never graduate.

But, you see, here’s the thing: it costs even MORE to lockup said dropouts. And we’re talking about just the prison inmate piece here-thats not including costs to have more cops on the beat, funding for nice toys like the cameras Booker has installed in high crime areas of Newark, and the costs to do all the meting out of justice in the court system. All of that costs, and costs big-so again, if you’re bellyaching about the waste of money thrown down the rathole of inner city schools, you gotta be miffed about how much it costs to keep Rasheed who don’t bother to read locked up.

But that’s just a part of the story. Another part of it lies in the simple fact that reform schools-and I’m a big fan of those, by the way-well, they also cost money to run and operate. If we take out the disruptive kids that are making life hell for everyone else, we gotta put em somewhere, and reform schools don’t come cheap. So again, if you’re bitching and moaning about expenditures of funds, you gotta tackle this issue, too.

Of course, the HBDers couldn’t really care less about any of this, because simply put they not only deem Blacks to be “less than” intellectually than the “founding stock” of this nation and their model minority Asians, but they also really don’t see the African Americans as just that…American. In the eyes of HBDers, although they never just come out and say it, and Sailer’s own tilts toward “citizensism” notwithstanding, the bottomline is that the HBDers feel that African Americans are a net drain on a once great society, and the sooner they’re cut loose the better. Of course, the problem with this, is that Black people are, whether they like it or not, American citizens, and as such, have to be “dealt with” in some way. Simply put, either way, you pay.

So, what’s my solution to this mess? Well, it should come as no surprise that from where I sit, it’s quite easy:

1. GET RID OF THE DEADWOOD IN THE SCHOOLS. That Weingarten lady who is the head of the Teacher’s Union in this country is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and we all know it. We all know that it’s in the very nature of unions to protect their own incompetency among the membership. This is why “tenure” is so fiercely defended, and the red pen can’t stop at the blackboard, but all up and don the “education” foodchain, which includes do-nothing principals, know-nothing “administrators” and any and everyone else who just ain’t worth the paper their letterhead is on. We all know that the private and especially Catholic schools do a much better job with a fraction of the staff and money, that schools like those in Newark or pre-Rhee era DC public schools do, so we all know what to do on that end to make things better. We just have to find the will.

2. Bring back that which we know works: phonics, reading comp, basic math functions, basic understanding of how our country came to be and the role of Black folk in it (I’m talking about inner city schools now), what it means to be an American citizen, how to function in this society. We’re not talking about reinventing the wheel here, or trying to pierce the space-time continuum, we’re just talking about taking Rasheed and Willie and making them into basic, prodcutive citizens. To me, that’s a doable, achievable goal.

3. Stop glorifying college. Because for so many people, it’s simply not a real option that pays off in a cost/benefit fashion. We need to stop being afraid of saying things we all know to be true. The issue ain’t everyone having a degree on the wall, the issue is everyone having the basic ability to function and get along in our society. In sports, you start out with the fundamentals, and the same should hold true with the schools. Bring back the drills, bring back being fundamentally grounded in the basics, toss the extraneous crap that one is highly unlikely to use out in the real workaday world anyway.

4. Throw the current “curricula” in the trash. Much of it is bunk, which in part explains why so many Black boys vote with their feet. Instead, put in place stuff that these boys and other students will actually need: how to buy a house, how to rent an apartment, how to balance a checkbook, how our economic system works and why, how to go food shopping (VERY important in this Age of Obesity), and other key and important life skills, to say actually taking an interest in what these kids see as important in their lives and engaging them on that. I was watching CNN yesterday and they reported that only TEN PERCENT of current college students even know how to do their own laundry, that requests for recipes like how to make spaghetti shot up SIX HUNDRED PERCENT in the past year alone. That is atrocious-and keep in mind here, we’re talking about solidly middle class kids, not Pookie and Ray-Ray from the hood or Juan and Manny from the barrio. I knew how to do these things before I even got out of highschool. Fact based, real world stuff needs to be focused on heavily in the schools most adversely effected, because they’re the ones who most need to be able to fend for themselves. In the military, the DI’s job is to train his Men not only how to kill efficiently, but also how to survive the war zone so they have a shot at coming back home in one piece sans the flag-draped casket. Haven’t all these “educators” ever heard of To Sir, With Love?

5. Bring back tracking, but make it meaningful and purposeful-it’s not the end of the world if little Bilal or KeyShawn ain’t cut out for the AP track, and this is something a lot of Black parents need to confront. I get the emotional-historical tug around the whole college thing for Black folks, because we were denied from that for so long in this country. But we’re not helping those of us for whom that life is simply not the best fit for them, and we shouldn’t be ashamed of saying so. There’s nothing wrong with tracking in and of itself, so long as it’s done in the right way, AND, it leads to a meaningful life once the kid leaves highschool. The dirty little secret with tracking as we’ve known it is that once Dante’ and James left highschool trade class, they had nowhere to go to take things to the next step, and so either faced dismal prospects out on the labor market, or eventually found half-lives in the “service” unions. If we’re gonna bring back tracking, and again I’m all for it, it’s gotta be coupled with real world outcomes-meaning, that Dante’ and James and KeyShawn and Rasheed wind up being taxpayers, and not tax takers doing a 5 to 10 year bid or longer upstate. So while we clean house in Ms. Weingarten’s union, there’s another union where we need to clean house, and that’s the skilled trades unions-the carpenters, electrical workers, pipefitters/plumbers unions, etc. For far too long these unions have been havens of ethnic White patronage, and have kept out Black Men who could have made real contributions to our society. They need the training and apprenticeship these unions provide, to say nothing of the gateway access to work and contracts these unions are known for.

These are just a few of the ideas I have that will make the schools better for those that need a shot at living a decent life. And I think it can be done a bit cheaper than what’s currently being spent on the schools most adversely effected.

But then again, what do I know-I’m just a lowly “NAM” who is product of those crappy inner city public schools…

Now adjourn your asses…

The Obsidian”

http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/09/27/waiting-for-bizarro-the-hbders-take-on-education/

Alrighty boys and girls: what do you think? Who’s right, and who’s wrong?

Holla back

The Obsidian