EDIT: Omg friends such a huge response. Im a little flooded and touched by all the messages and posts. Some stuff happened again yesterday after I talked to him again. Please let me reply slowly. I am trying to process everything and trying to respond to all you lovely people. But please give me some time yeah. Also this post is getting reallly long. So ive broken it down into update 1 & 2 with the original post at the far bottom. Hopefully it dosent become a chore to read.
And all you mgtow/redpill sexists. Stop messaging me with your hate. This is a throw away account and I fully expected to get brigaded so your little temper tantrums arent going to faze me. I've had more than my fair share of sexist hate so your key board warrioring by flooding my inbox isnt going to get me to stop.
Update 2 : So I've pretty much given up on trying to reply to every individual post. I've just been totally overwhelmed with the response. Also my inbox has like a 100 hate mail from mgtow's. So I thought maybe a general update which takes into account everyone's opinions might be better.
So as per some of the advice I got, I had a talk with him regarding the special benefits marriages confer. Shout out to /u/falconinthedive . So I kind of leveraged on the idea that if we dont get married and stay as is, legally id be powerless to help him and vice versa in cases of medical emergencies (consent etc) and even in matters like burial as falcon pointed out. This pretty much lit a fire under him I think. He really didnt like the idea that his family would have more power over him than me. I feel so dirty though using this as leverage. But I dont think I had a choice other than to leave him which I really dont want to do. He has been very good to me, I love him very much and I'd rather try to work this out. And the world out there is wall to wall arseholes (or my single friends tell me).
That at the very least got him thinking. I was not prepared for what came next tho. Over the past week and weekend he went to see his lawyer and write out a 20 page will..... He also is arranging for power of attorney in cases of medical emergencies.
From what I gather he is pretty much fabricating a marriage without the actual marriage.... Like its hard to explain. Like it seems most of the benefits that I would get out of a marriage is now being handed over to me via his will and other legal documents that he is arranging. I just don't get why he wont just go ahead and marry me already if he's willing to go this far via legal hoops and merry-go-rounds. He just really dosent like what marriage is I guess.
Like he has'nt asked me for anything in return (like my will or power of attorney etc) either. If this is really going to happen then I probably need to see my own lawyer and confer on him the rights he has given over to me too. Like I dont want only me to be protected.
All this got me thinking. I know this dislike of marriage is not just him though. I've had quite a few friends who are getting more and more averse to marriage. It seems to be some kind of pandmeic among younger men (based on my own experiences). As feminists we need to start getting to younger men and helping them before they turn to shitty things like MRA's or incel reddits. They have frigging 100k Subs. That is ridiculous. That's more than what most feminist reddits have. Or even mens lib. Now im not saying shut down or nuke them or something. But we really need to figure out how to help the younger generation of men.....Follow up question is what can we do as feminists to stop our younger generation from going into a total disconnect between the sexes? These MRA types are misconstruing feminism and using it as a beating stick to grab these guys and suck them into mgtow/redpill/incel style of thinking. I never gave it much thought until I found myself facing it. If my inbox is any representation of what's happening online, these misogynists are lurking by the thousands online and waiting to prey on anyone who is vulnerable.
Update 1 : Post has been updated after our second talk. Details below.
So thanks everyone for all your comments and views. He got home last night and I started another conversation with him. He got home from work and told me that I had a "free pass"to ask him whatever I wanted for just that night. Things that he wouldnt talk about before like his family and some of his personal views. Honestly I was blown aback by this. Anything ever to do with his family or certain views he'd always refuse to comment. We sat and talked for hours and here's a summary of what I managed to gather in Q & A form (to the most accurate I can remember. The wording might be paraphrased a little since I cant rmb his exact words);
- Q: Are you mgtow? What do you mean when you say they have valid points?
R: I don't think mgtow has any real definition. If your asking if I am a woman hater, then the answer is no. I just dont think most LTR's that have state sanctioned interventions end well for men. Statistically speaking, the biggest risk to a man's asset is getting married (and then divorced?). And No I dont think you are going to take my money and run. You wouldnt have access to my account if that was the case. There is no spending limit on your card. And most of the money in there is mine. So please don't think I dont trust you. I just don't like other people butting into our business. Its you and me. What happens with us should stay with us.
- Q: Have you seen the woman hating sexist posts on there? (mgtow) Why do you want to be associated with them.
R: Honestly I dont like identity politics. I don't like feminism, I dont like leftists, liberals, democrats, right wing or whatever it is that's around. I see ideas and views as a stand-alone. So if you were to mention things like being equal, respectful and non-sexist to each other, then I am on board with that. I don't want to be labelled feminist or mgtow. I also think the idea of marriage and what it means is antiquated. For better or for worse, till death do us part has no value today. People say that shit,but people up and walk away all the time. What's the point in marriage anyway? What for tax benefits? Or some other token benefit that we can do perfectly fine without. We've been living together for 4 years. Do you really think getting married is going to make a difference anyway? I don't see why you think im mgtow. I told you they had some valid points. Not that I was mgtow. "Full blown mgtow" = no more LTRs. nothing more nothing less. We were pretty much yelling at each other that night. So I think there was probably some serious miscom going on.
*Sighs guilty. He took fault for yelling but it was pretty much me doing the yelling*
- Q: Since you brought up marriage, do you think you would ever change your mind?
R: No. I need you to spend some time thinking about this. If that is something you REALLY want, then you need to consider leaving me as much as I would hate for that to happen. If you want a marriage ceremony without the documentation or legal bounds, then I am on board with that. We can have a quiet ceremony and you can invite whoever you want. I don't really have family so ill just invite a few friends.
- Q: You don't have family?
R: *He paused for a while here. It felt awkward but I was going to use this free pass to at least get an idea of what happened to him before we met*
They are alive and well. I just don't want anything to do with her.
- Q: Her? your mom?
R: If you can call her that. Can we please let this drop. Let's just say she was anything but a mom. I really dont want to talk about this. That part of my life is over and done with. It has nothing to do with where we are now and I don't want to dig up that part.
So those of you who told me he had prolly a nasty past with his mom. You guys were spot on the gold. I didnt want to press him about his family anymore for that night.
- Q: I really want kids. Won't not getting married be bad for us?
R: We can have kids. Nothing really changes when we arent married. You can still put my name on the birth cert. I will still be bound to child support legally. Honestly it would never come to that. I would pay willingly as much as I can afford to regardless of what transpires between us. I know what its like to have no support. I would never do that to my kids.
At this point I thought I have all I needed from him. So we let it drop there. So what do you guys think? I really think he's been honest and answered most of the questions the best he can except for the one about his mom. I didnt want to push him on that cos he was getting very agitated which is not normal for him. He is pretty calm and even most of the time and dosent get flustered. Even the previous night where he brought up mgtow it was pretty much me yelling not him. So it really worried me that he was getting so upset when I tried pressing him on it a little. I'm okay with not knowing about his past with his mom to be honest. And I really think not getting married is fine after hearing all this. I'm just glad my boyfriend isnt some closet mgtow.
Original Post
So for background I’ve been with my boyfriend for almost 4 years now. Our relationship before last night was (is?) amazing. We’ve always been supportive of each other and as far as I am aware, he has been the sweetest, kindest and most loyal person I know.
However, I brought up marriage yesterday evening to him. I have been waiting for so long for him to propose but I thought why not I do it instead.
Long story short by the end of the conversation we had, I was in tears. I really don’t want to ramble so summarised (the best I can);
He is not interested in marriage. He reminded me of a chat we had a few years back where he openly told me that marriage may not be in the cards for him. I always thought that we’d get over that hurdle but last night he confirmed that he would never marry.
Over the course of our discussion, he mentioned that mgtow had some valid points which completely floored me. I admit I fked up a little here by losing my cool and yelling at him things like how could he think so low of me etc. We did get some discussion going and his main gripe it seems is that statistically speaking, our community has a marriage annulment/divorce rate of almost 30% etc and things like X in X men are raising kids who aren’t theirs etc.
After calming down and hearing his side, I told him I’d never do those things to him and that if he thought so low of me why he was still with me. He responded with if not for me, he’d be full blown mgtow. To him it means not engaging in any kind of LTR with any woman.
So we went back and forth a while longer and it is clear to me now that my boyfriend will forever be just that; a boyfriend. I don’t think he will or its wise for me to try to change him into accepting marriage. Especially when he mentioned that he was only letting me live with him because common law is not a thing where we are from. He basically wants no legal ties or any kind of government intervention into our relationship. He wants himself and me, to be free to walk out at any time without legal ramifications. Ie: He or I cheats, and the other party can just pack up and go.
Now I KNOW he’s not a selfish person with money or anything or maybe he’s worried about divorce rape or something. Cos he has paid my medical bills 2 years ago (which was a sizeable sum) and when I couldn’t work for a while after that he supported me. I think his problem is with the idea of marriage dosent really fit with his view on society.
My heart is broken and I don’t know how to bring him back from his POV to what feminism is. What we have right now is pretty much a 100% egalitarian relationship. Household chores, money, hell even our reddit account is semi-shared which is why I made this throw away account in case he stumbles on my post it would probably blow up matters even worse.
Are there any ways for me to approach this again with him to try to change his mind? I really don’t want to loose him. I think I’d be okay with just being his girlfriend for the rest of my life but it pains me that he has gotten feminism so wrong.
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