So I just wanted to share this irrational bit of bullshit that happened. The girl was a friend of mine I went to high school with and always really liked but honestly at this point in my life I'm more interested in speaking my mind than trying to get with her so even when she lays the drama on REAL THICK later I decide not to back down.
I wish I had the beginning of the conversation to show you all but as I've now been blocked and the conversation started on her wall I can no longer access it. Things began when she posted a tweet from Clementine Ford which was some nonsense about how in rape cases we only look at women's pasts while we look at men's futures.... it didn't even make sense.
I responded by saying (roughly): Clementine Ford is a crazy misandrist, I wouldn't recommend listening to what she has to say.
HER (Roughly): I didn't even know she was a personality, but after looking her up I find myself in agreement with almost everything she says. I don't know your experiences but I do know you've never been a woman....... blah blah blah.... I couldn't find anything she said to be misandrist.
ME: Did you scroll down to her #KillAllMen posts? seems like pretty clear misogyny to me.
[she then sends me a picture which I can't find now of something Ford once posted. It was a lengthy post about how patriarchy hurts men too and it was directed at all the little cucks and said things along the lines of, "it's ok to cry, it's ok to cuddle, it's ok to be gay, it's ok if you're not muscular... blah blah blah, basically 'don't let the idea of masculinity cloud your judgement- you'd be much happier as an ally!']
HER (after private messaging me): If you want to continue this conversation, let's do it here and not spam everyone on my wall. I think you should read more of her material and think a little harder about whether or not it's fair for you to dismiss her perspective out of hand.
I would absolutely be interested in seeing more of what you consider misandry. There are definitely lots of playful undertones that embrace the "militant feminist" image, but I don't see anything that condones actual violence or discrimination towards men.
ME: Ok, so im pretty sure you're not going to like what I have to say, but let me start by saying it's nice of you to be willing to talk to me about, honestly I thought you'd probably just be angry with me and tell me to f off. But I truly don't support Ford and her methods which I consider to be subversive to the perception of masculinity at its base. Take for example the screen shot you just shared- first off it's goal is to unite men against the patriarchy which I dont believe in. Second of all, it offers 'acceptance' only to a very specific kind of man- one who already feels 'unaccepted'. What you loud as a message of acceptance seems more to me like a recruitment to her cause and an encouragement of internalized misandry. She seeks to unite men against other men, to associate anyone who tells them to be more assertive or stronger or whatever as people who are ONLY critisizing them from a stand point of sexism. The reality is such advice can be useful to a man who is struggling with their confidence- ultimately I dont think Clementine's advice is good advice for men. I feel similarly about other 'acceptance' movements that do not have to do with gender. Most of them revolve around convincing people that all of their shortcomings are really only undue judgements from society, essentially, "you're not the problem, they are. And we can protect you from them." This mentality leads to entitlement and a lack of self awareness we see rampant now with millenials on college campuses, a grievance culture I consider unhealthy.
I would love to give you more on topic examples about Clementine Ford but I'll have to wait until I'm home and it's more practical to do so. Further let me say that you're absolutely right in one sense- I dont believe at all that Clementine's plan was ever to actually assualt men, but that doesn't mean that #killallmen is acceptable- its gender baiting that is inappropriate. Many feminists gain support by uniting men and women against men. That is misandry for sure and while militant is inaccurate aggressive and divisive are accurate. 7:35am
HER: I think that telling people that rigid gender norms are unnecessary and harmful in no way contributes to the kind of entitlement you speak of. She absolutely says that our society is problematic, and she absolutely tells women that they aren't the problem. Rape apologists and men's rights activists often have the sincere belief that women deserve to be hurt if they don't conform to the standards the patriarchy sets for them. And I absolutely agree that Clementine for its perspective is subversive to masculinity at his face. She has a hatred for masculinity. That doesn't mean she has a hatred for men. The social norms of masculinity are based in huge part in the subjugation of women and disrespect and violence toward other men. If you're not busy, call me I'm driving to work and voice texting is annoying to use. 12:30pm
ME: I would have called had I been up. Sorry, but im pretty much nocturnal now.
There's so much here to dissect I don't know where to start. How about with "toxic masculinity?" You say yourself that she hates masculinity but doesn't hate men- thats already an oxymoron. You can't hate a natural and inherent trait of a gender and then claim you don't hate the gender. Also, listen to your own description of masculinity- you think it's about subjugation? Disrespect and violence? Im sorry to say but Clementine has already succeeded; this mindset is exactly the subversive shit im talking about. Why do you think men are inherently violent and sexist? Well it cant help that there are prominent feminists out there whose entire job is to push that narrative. And it offends me. It offends me that maleness itself is publicly under attack but if I say anything about it then I'm a misogynist, or a rape apologist, or a troll, or an MRA (which shouldnt even be an insult btw). Clementine Ford and others like her are actively working to silence men. As if the bizarre double standard world we live in where she can publicly say kill all men with no repercussions is somehow still too sexist for her. Just imagine if a man went to twitter and started #punchallwomen . Inherently LESS violent than kill all men - what do you think would happen to that man? He would probably be charged with hate speech and incitement to violence. At the very least it would not become a successful trend because we live in a society that is so NOT a patriarchy that we know we're not allowed to even joke about hurting women. Oh and as far as her acceptance of those men that dont conform to gender norms- yeah thats all well and good... IF you also accept those men who DO conform to basic male gender norms. Because whats wrong with being normal? Well, according to feminism a normal male is an aggressive rapist-to-be oppressor. When we look at the movement overall today (in the west) I find that feminism really is less about fighting for women than it is about fearmongering and gender baiting with false propaganda in order to make feminism seem like it's still relevant. You have to realize that theres a reason those people will NEVER say that America is not sexist anymore. Even if we had our first female president, they wouldnt say that. And it's because their career as feminists DEPENDS on the perception that sexism and patriarchy are every where. This is what we get after generations of gender studies majors- a whole economy of women who have a vested interest in spreading fear and misandry to other women.
No Clemency for Clementine.rtf [This is a document I made just for her that contains easily 20 examples of Ford being a terrible person along with links and excerpts from some of her articles]
What I have sent you there is a compilation of specific examples of misandry and otherwise poor behavior from Clementine Ford. Hopefully this isn't too over the top but you wanted examples and I knew I could find them.
HER: Fuck you. Tell that shit to my the two men who drugged and raped me in October. Tell that to the detective who told me not to take the case to court because I would never win and losing would vindicate them. Tell that to the commissioner who told me that the court could not even grant me a protective order against them unless they were found guilty of rape in a court of law. Fucking tell me again that saying the goddamn truth about rape in America is propaganda and fearmongering. Tell me that America is not sexist anymore.
ME: .... Ok so I guess it's my fault somehow? Im sorry that happened to you but here I was just trying to have a conversation. I don't know about your experiences so theres no need to throw them in my face like im an asshole or something. I had nothing to do with any of that. Also I would have recommended a lawyer, not a detective. If you dont like what he told you then find someone else who's willing to back your case. The decision to prosecute is yours.
HER: [My name], ONE IN FOUR WOMEN HAS HAD THIS EXPERIENCE. One in four. You are an asshole, not for being somehow responsible for what happened to me (I'm obviously not accusing you of hashing had something to do with it), but for refusing to acknowledge the truth. Feminists didn't teach me to fear men, men taught me to fear men. *having, not hashing
ME: Well im sorry but you've cited a known piece of propaganda. The one in four statistic is demonstratably false. I know it's the last thing you want to hear and you'll probably feel like I'm trying to deny your experience but im really not. Ive never claimed that rape doesn't exist it certainly continues to exist today but the fact is we currently have less rapes than there's ever been in America and the 1 in 4 stat seeks to ignore this. America is not a rape culture. Islam and sharia law is a legitimate example of patriarchal rape culture and it disgusts me. But where is the feminist outcry over the sex attacks in Cologne? Hidden behind all the feminist articles about islamaphobes. http://www.iwf.org/news/2432517/One-in-Four-Rape-myths-do-injustice-too Here is an article that discusses the very study that gave rise to that statistic. This article is written by a woman, btw, and similar things have been said by noted feminists like Christina Hoff Sommers Chat Conversation End
BLOCKED!!!!
