I've been reading and seeing more and more about internalized misogyny and the male gaze and the beauty myth etc. and obviously it made me think a lot and question how I see the world around me and most importantly about how I see myself (as it should). However, this has lead to somewhat of an identity crisis for me as I'm questioning everything. How do you guys deal with that stuff? I just feel like I don't know if I really like the stuff I like or if I was just taught that. For example, putting on make-up when I go out feels empowering to me, but does it just feel like that because I'm catering more to the male gaze? Dressing revealingly feels like I'm sexually liberated and confidant about my body to me, but am I just trying to emulate the images of strong and confidant women in the media who are highly sexualized and objectified by the camera? I also notice that I kind of unconsciously and sometimes consciously seek male attention and validation and that I love feeling attractive and all that probably because of that. And this goes on and on and on. How do I figure who I am outside of that and what I really like because I like it?
(I hope I expressed myself clearly and that this is understandable, English is not my native language)
[–]Jugrnot8 7 points8 points9 points (10 children) | Copy Link
Truly is pathetic and weird that so many women think because there are some bad men then all men must be bad.
It's the same logic as racist have. Shitty guys prey on littler guys way worse than women will ever understand. Usually these guys don't think all men are bad because they also see how shitty women are to them.
Women are horrible to one another and abuse children And men when they can.
TLDR: Shit rolls down hills, feminists are sexist and it's not men vs women; it's predator vs. prey.
[–]annabananas97 -4 points-3 points-2 points (9 children) | Copy Link
Hi, sorry, but where did I say that all men are bad? I don't think that. I have many men in my life that I love and appreciate greatly, like my boyfriend, my dad, my brother and male friends. And it is that way for many feminists. What feminists complain about are structural problems. It is not about whether all men are bad or not. Obviously there are some bad men out there as well as bad women. But feminism mostly aims at critiquing the way society is structured and not that much individual people. Isn't it part of living in a society to strive for improvements on a greater level?
Also, since when is it a bad thing to question the way your thinking and personality has been shaped by societal constraints? That is a very common thought process in all kinds of social sciences and philosophical schools of thought
[–]Jugrnot8 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
I wasn't saying you did, i was just adding some thoughts
What you are suggesting it's what feminism should be about but that's not what's actually going on.
[–]annabananas97 -2 points-1 points0 points (3 children) | Copy Link
Thank you for your reply and for being civil about this🙏 I really appreciate that! What I am saying is the definiton of feminism and what the movement IS about. Sure, there are people here and there who make it about something else, but every bigger movement has extremist and fundementalist people. However, those do not reflect the movement as a whole.
[–]Jugrnot8 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
I cannot speak for your experiences but they sound very different then mine. The idea of feminism and wanting equality is one that men have been fighting for and dying for, for centuries.
The practice (in my experiences) seems more about fallacious arguments and finger pointing.
Let's be frank here most feminists have bad father's or family members. Aka "daddy issues" so they take it out on all men.
You can clearly tell from your rational discussion and logical approach that you have had good relationships with men but you see how in some areas women aren't respected or treated as equal.
I have a feeling you are respected and treated equally? The reason is not because gender. In today's world you get respected if you deserve respect. If you act like the cliche of a female (that word female is not sexist btw) crying about how life is unfair nobody will respect you.
I suggest you create a alt account and pose as a male (boy or man) and try to have logical conversations with "femenist" and you will find out pretty quickly most are not true "femenists" they are simply bigots or lesbian groomers.
If the majority of femenists could talk like you and have meaningful conversation it would be much more productive.
It quickly resorts to name calling and taking digs and a man's penis size or sexual inabilities. The cliche feminist is rather sexist.
I applaude your civil discourse as well. It's refreshing and would be nice to see more frequently.
In the true sense i am a femenist but in no way would i ever associate with the embarrassment that it is today. I prefer humanist as men are not equal in some many important areas as well.
[–]annabananas97 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Thank you so much for your take. Well, I guess we just have had vastly different experiences with feminists. I know a lot of smart and well spoken feminists who are trying to have a civil and logical discourse about the structural issues. Of course, there are also some women who call themselves feminists, although they should call themselves misandrists, which is something that I do not support at all and that I think is very counterproductive to the movement. Like you said, I have had los of great relationships with men and I felt respected by them. However, I myself have still expercienced sexism and misogyny. Most days I just have to walk down a street and I get harassed. That started when I was just 12 years old and clearly a child. And those guys who do that do not respect me as a person, although I was not "crying about how life is unfair", but just because I left my house and I exist as a woman. And it does not matter at all how I am dressed btw. And that is just one aspect of many, in which most women still experience and suffer from sexismo. Now, I am completely aware that it is just a part of guys who do stuff like that, which is why I would never say that all guys are bad. But the problem is that no one knows beforehand which guys are bad and which are good. You can't know that before getting to know them. Which is why women say stuff like that they are afraid of men in general, because they can't know who is good and bad. It is just a form of protection and self preservation. And we are also taught exactly that. Guys say stuff like "I trust you but I don't trust the other guys" or fathers and big brothers say "All guys are the same, they just want to get in your pants, don't trust them" etc. That does not mean that feminists are attacking all men or you personally, it is just about changing things like that. There is nothing that I would love more than not being afraid of every guy I see when I walk alone at night.
[–]Jugrnot8 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
No human knows which specific girls or guys are safe until they know them and even then they don't. For example, I don't know which black people are safe but i refuse to become like one of these women who just think it's easier to think all black people or all men are potentially not safe. This is a perfect example, of how toxic "femenist" thinking can be. If you are afraid of all men that is ok but realize you are a sexist turd. If i thought all black people might be thief's but i don't know so i will just judge all of them... That means I'm a racist turd. At least own your hate.
I'm curious where you live? In some cultures cat calling is very common. I travel and walk around constantly and have witnessed cat calling but not "every day". It's kind of suspect how many woman say this happens every day.
If this is happening every day I would seriously say it's the area you are around and perhaps something you are doing. It doesn't make it right or wrong but for example if you walk by a construction site in a latin American culture every day with your ass and tits out ("looking for attention") you certainly will find the attention. In short, I can't comment on your experiences but if you say this happens every day you are certainly not a normal woman or in a normal area. Most adults live a very habitual life. If you are a bartender and have your tits out to get better tips then of course you will get both good and bad attention.
I'm a very attractive male and have women cat call and sexually assault me quite often. Not every day but i guarantee more then the average person. In my experiences women are wrist then men when it comes to being sexist in most areas but in certain areas predatory men certainly go all out with being horrible.
Most the women in my family, sister, daughter, aunts and many of my best friends are females and are extremely intelligent and most of them would ever claim they are femenists because they've experienced what i have and believe it's an embarrassment to real women i conduct themselves as victims. I think this could also be a cultural difference from my surroundings and yours.
Most women i associate with or grew up around do not cry about the past or complain about being women. They realize men like boobs and butts and when they dress for attention and recieve it they do not complain. They play it to their advantage and realize what they are doing. They demand respect because they are strong bad ass, intelligent women. Women like this don't respect girls that complain and cry about why they cant dress half naked without getting attention from men. That's an immature way of approaching the world.
To be honest, bad ass strong intelligent women are way more brutal then men towards most these women. In my experiences I would also argue women are just as predatory as men they just do it differently. I would also argue that gender is more fluid and all humans are not so much divided by male vs female but predator vs. prey.
It does matter what you wear. It shouldn't but it does. The sooner people realize that the better. No "smaller" or "weaker" person feels safe walking around at night. This is not just women. Smaller guys are way more likely to be assaulted because so many men look at women as off-limits. This goes back to my point that is not a gender issue it is predator vs prey. Any medium to smaller guy will have gone through way more assault in their life and sexism than most.
This is the key problem. People want the world to be something it never will be. I or the people I associate don't live in this world where you should be able to walk around with our asses out and not attract attention. We live in this real world. We accept people's differences and take precautions.
Should the world be like these femenists cry for? It would be great but it never will. We can try to make things better in small areas but the world will always have women that judge all men and men that judge all women. Humans will always objectify one another sexually because we are a sexual species. There will always be predators and always be prey and it will never be safe to walk around at night and feel safe for a guy or girl.
This is the real world. Its sad and it's scary and you simply can't do whatever you want (like an entitled child) with out possible negative attention. I'm not calling you an entitled child just people who think like this.
Let me give you an example for me currently. I'm visiting Colombia. Should i be able to wear whatever i want without attracting negative attention? Yes of course. Do you think I'm childish or entitled enough to actually do so and then claim I'm a victim when I'm assaulted? Fuck no.
Travel the world (if you haven't) you will realize quickly if you feel entitled to dress and act how you want you will be handed a dose of reality soon enough.
If i go out at night or day or by myself i could very likely be fine but we must remember there is always a bigger fish and i don't get to choose the attention i recieve. Eventually I'll find negative attention.
This is the world we live in.
[–]DIES-_-IRAE[S] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
That's a lot of "blah blah blah" to say "all men are bad and want to hurt me."
[–]annabananas97 -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
That's a lot of "blah blah blah" to say " I hate women and am afraid of their emancipation". You didn't even really read my explanation🙄 Don't complain about somenthing you don't even try to understand
[–]DIES-_-IRAE[S] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I understand a lot more than you think.
How is #killallmen and #menaretrash 'emancipating' again?
[–]annabananas97 -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
Like I said, I love a lot of men in my life, and obviously do not support hashtags like that. But that is not feminism, that is misandry. Do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. I totally agree with you on that, that is not emancipation. But if you think feminism is about hashtags like these and saying all men are bad, then you are misinformed and should maybe read a bit on academic feminist theories and not get all of your info from Reddit.
[–]Wild_Aioli 3 points4 points5 points (4 children) | Copy Link
But remember, it's patriarchy's fault that men staring is bad.
Also, the association fallacy is terrible.
"putting on make-up when I go out feels empowering to me, but does it just feel like that because I'm catering more to the male gaze? Dressing revealingly feels like I'm sexually liberated and confidant about my body to me, but am I just trying to emulate the images of strong and confidant women in the media who are highly sexualized and objectified by the camera?"
Maybe you like it? Maybe it on some level appeals to you, and if it didn't you wouldn't emulate it in the first place, or at least have done so begrudgingly rather than feel empowered?
This is one reason people don't like feminism, it's outright saying that women who disagree just have internalized misogyny and even if you like certain things feminists don't, it's because you're brainwashed.
Also, it's media, it is a product. People objectify themselves every day by being objects at work or being people you don't know. The only people who see you as people are you're friends and family. If you expect strangers to see you as anything more, you're in for a bad time.
[–]annabananas97 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
"Maybe you like it? Maybe it on some level appeals to you, and if it
didn't you wouldn't emulate it in the first place, or at least have done
so begrudgingly rather than feel empowered?"
Yes, of course, I literally was saying that I like it and that I enjoy male validation. And I personally don't think all women who disagree with feminism are brainwashed, but some might have been taught that feminism is a bad thing, without actually ever learning about what it is and what it tries to do.
"Also, the association fallacy is terrible."
I don't understand how this is supposed to be an association fallacy. Are you honestly saying that the way we think and see things is not completely influenced by the society and culture we grow up in? That is the very simple principle of socialisation. People who were born 50 years ago, 100 years or 2000 years ago were all socialised differently and therefore had very different views on the world and on other people. The same goes for different places of the world, different cultures, different religions etc.. Who you and how you think is entirely a product of the environment in which you grew up in. That is a fact. So, with that in mind I wonder why you see it as an association fallacy to associate the way I think and feel about certain things with the values of the society I grew up in and to question how much that has influenced me?
"The only people who see you as people are you're friends and family. If
you expect strangers to see you as anything more, you're in for a bad
time"
Obviously I don't see strangers the same way as I see friends and family, but I still see them and recognize that they are human beings with thoughts and emotions. That is quite differnt from sexual objectification, which I was referrring to, which basically means that you don't see that person as a person, but just as an object of desire, just a thing to have sex with. I suggest you google that term and you will see that there are many studies about this.
[–]DIES-_-IRAE[S] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
Feminism has left you unable to feel normal self- confidence about your appearance.
You can word it however you like, but that's what's happening here; you've been groomed to be almost mindlessly misandrist, and it's turned into unironic hysteria.
[–]annabananas97 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Please explain to me in what way your argumentation and view is superior to mine, when you don't even address the points I'm making and when you are just assuming things about me without any further explanations. If you don't want to have a discussion about this, okay. But don't call me hysteric, because I am trying to have a calm discussion, while you are not even explaining your points or reading my replies. So, don't act all superior to me, because I am honestly trying to understand your POV and I wish you would grant me the same courtesy
[–]DIES-_-IRAE[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
4th wave Feminism is hysterical by nature and man hating by nurture, so there's that.
And I have an appreciation for your position, because I know exactly what it's like to be objectified. Men are treated as success objects all the time.
To be honest? I feel really, really bad for you. Being brainwashed into a hateful ideology like that has very obviously left its mark.