Devil's (women's) Advocate

myUsernom · 2017-02-21T20:41:41+00:00

"Bunch of lonely sad men"

Name calling is not really an effective argument against the position that people here hold. You really should try harder. I couldnt give a fuck what people think of me, your opinions are simply insignificant, and I speak for the majority here when I say that.

Spondaios · 2017-02-21T21:04:11+00:00

When a bad outcome happens to one or two guys in life, sure, it's easy to say it's their fault. When you get the kinds of numbers that result in thousands of stories of failure after failure with all the same themes you begin to question societal assumptions you've been programmed with.

It doesn't take much Internet research to find MGTOW, TRP or PUA and really learn some new perspectives.

Thousands of men are waking up because these stories are resonating with them. They are hearing these stories and recognising themselves.

tribalbandit · 2017-02-21T21:40:32+00:00

It is not my job to convince you or anyone else that my way is for you. It either is and you walk it or it is not.

On a more personal note, I don't really give a shit what you believe.

Mojo_666 · 2017-02-21T21:24:55+00:00

No it's not all that bad, it ain't all the great either, as the "single" (divorced) guy my house is filled with "happily married men" every weekend, all have varying levels of drama to offload, some can't make it (not allowed) some weekends, some can come visit at their leisure. Some of their wives are great and some are cunts. The one thing my mates have in common is they feel trapped, unloved and under appreciated although all are successful and decent guys. They inherintly know something is wrong but they just can't put their finger on it. And this was my gripe, my marriage was OK, life was OK, but I did 80% of the work and had 20% of the say, my marriage broke down because I wasn't going to be pussy whipped, I did what I wanted (and i mean exercising, reading, working) when I wanted not man whoring and partying. Anyway, that said no one here owes you an explanation or needs to try to get you onside, so with that said. Go fuck yourself.

mofono · 2017-02-21T20:41:31+00:00

When you look into a plantation and observe the slaves working for third masters, it's interesting to note that slaves seem happy. Why are they so happy when they are slaves, when they have no freedom? It is because of Stockholm syndrome.

mthrowaway52 · 2017-02-22T00:40:37+00:00

I slept with more women in my 20's than most men will sleep with in a lifetime. I realized that I'm only going after these women because society expects me to, not because I want to. I guess I don't have that biological urge to fuck every woman I see. I don't find women attractive. I'm not sexually attracted to women. In fact I find most women repulsive to look at. Extremely rarely is a woman ever worth a second glance for me. I think of porn the same way I would think about watching two animals having sex on the discovery channel - kind of intriguing, maybe kind of funny, but that's about it. I know I'm not gay because I am even more repulsed by the thought of being involved sexually or romantically with a man than I am with a woman.

I've had friends try to hook me up with females they know and I would just reject. I've completely (and slyly obliviously) ignored obvious female attempts to hit on me. I have nothing against women in general. I have no problem if I go to a restaurant and I get a female waitress. I don't have a problem if the clerk at the register at the store is a female. I don't call customer service and "demand to speak to a male".

In fact I own a business in a very male dominated field and one of the biggest vendors I do business with I always insist on dealing exclusively with a person who happens to be female. That female knows more about this (male dominated industry) than any other person I have ever dealt with in this entire industry. If she's on the phone, I wait. If she's not available, I'll call back later. I send her Christmas gifts even though I'm the one spending thousands and thousands of dollars with that company because I want to ensure I only ever deal with her and I don't get pawned off to some intern or assistant. Preferential above and beyond treatment and "don't tell anyone" discounts have more than paid for said gifts.

If men are happily married, that's fine. That's how they chose to live their life. It's not how I choose to live mine. I have one friend that I'm convinced has found the proverbial "unicorn". Fiercely loyal to him, cooks, cleans, bought a house with her money, and works two full time jobs to support his single part time job. I do however have other friends who have had their lives ruined by women. I've personally had my life ruined by a woman that I never had any romantic or sexual relations at all. Just an ex employee who didn't like that I reprimanded her for a work related incident and beat herself up and claimed I beat her and took tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and a few days in jail just for everything to be dropped because it was a lie. Something that led to me closing the business all together and leaving twenty people unemployed.

With that being said, I care about my friends. If I see a red flag with a girl they are with, I am not the least bit hesitant to express my opinion, even in front of the girl. Friendship and everything else be damned. On the contrary, if s friend actually does manage to land a genuine unicorn, I will tell them "Keep doing what you're doing and keep this girl happy." To my friend who did marry a unicorn mentioned earlier, I actually have told him, multiple times, in front of his wife "Don't Fuck up. Keep your wife happy". Now the second she starts throwing up red flags, that will instantly change to "start looking into divorce now".

You can go ahead and call me whatever name you want. It doesn't matter to me one bit. I believe you used the term "bunch of sad lonely men". If that's what you want to use, that's fine.

MGTOW_Monger · 2017-02-22T02:12:35+00:00

I DID NOT WRITE THE FOLLOWING.

But, I'll share. It's called reality. And has been shared many times right here reddit mgtow)

.......

Guys, since I continue to reference the concept of MGTOW, I stumbled across a pretty decent summary of this philosophy to help you better understand what I'm jabbering about.

......

1) MGTOW is more of a philosophy on how to live life instead of a movement.

This is a very important one, a political movement is defined as a organized social group operating to achieve a certain goal. MGTOW does not operate in such a manner. At it's very essence it's a bunch of guys who've adopted a new way of living life. They don't seek to change the status quo, but instead opt out of whatever society expects them to do.

2) MGTOWS are not just bitter men who cant get a date.

A lot of women think this is what MGTOW is all about. If this is you too, guess what? You're wrong. Some of the first MGTOWs were divorced men. Men stuck paying alimony to a cheating ex wife who divorced him. Men screwed over sideways in family courts for child custody. Then it spread to men in marriages who were downright miserable with the way their wives treated them. Then it spread to men in relationships that were fed up with the dating world and how they were expected to act, despite being taken advantage of by women. Some of these men have been in abusive relationships. Then finally is spread to the young single guys in their 20's.

It's not that MGTOWS cant get a date, they just don't want to. They've taken a good logical look at dating, marriage, and they way divorce courts treat them. At that point they decided to say “screw this i'm out”.

3) MGTOWS are not social hermits.

Females seem to think that a MGTOW is some guy living his mom's basement who refuses to leave and live life. In a Youtube video called ”Dear Men” by Alexanda Blue she mention that guys were isolating themselves from society. MGTOWS don't isolate themselves they just don’t conform to society. They have friends, they most definitely have hobbies, they have family, they have good jobs, and they have fun. Calling them hermits is seriously missing the mark.

4) MGTOW's are very content with their lifestyle.

They have good jobs, a lot of them have their own business. They have time and luxury to pursue dreams and hobbies. Since a lot of MGTOWS don't have to support a family, a lot of their money turns into disposable income. A lot of MGTOWS will tell you themselves that they live very peaceful, orderly lives. Which brings me to my next point

5) Insulting or shaming MGTOW does jack squat.

People who dislike MGTOW really can't seem to come to terms with this. All the time you the see them telling MGTOWS to “man up!” or say that they have “peter pan syndrome”. The reason why none of this works against a MGTOW is because you fail to see things the way the see it. To a MGTOW settling down means giving up all of your hobbies, your awesome life style, and pursuing your dreams, for a life of monotony. Even more so, “manning up” would mean entering in to a marriage where he could potentially lose at least half his assets (car, house, kids, etc.) in the event of a divorce. From a logical standpoint, trying to shame a MGTOW into settling down is pointless.

6)They're not all anti-feminist they just couldn't care less about women's rights, issues, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong some of MGTOWS are anti-feminist. The rest of them could just care less. If MRA's and feminists were to have a debate, MGTOWS wouldn't even bother to show up much less get out of bed. If you're trying to rally a MGTOW to some female social cause, don't bother.

7) Alot of MGTOW's avoid women all together.

Don't like being catcalled in the street? No problem, they wont catcall you. Hate being stared at the gym? Fine by them, they wont look. Don't liked being asked for your number in random places? Alrighty. You don't have to worry about a MGTOW doing any of these things. In fact a MGTOW won't even bother to look in your direction. A MGTOW will keep conversation with you to a minimum. What people forget that this is a double edge sword. Having a guy buy you drinks at a bar? Nope! Taking you out to a nice expensive dinner and picking up the tab? Nope! Taking you for a ride on his motorcycle or in his sports car? Guess again. Casual flirting? I think not. The majority of men, are single yet off-the-market. Especially in a society where a guy in one false rape accusation or sexual harassment case away from a jail sentience.

8) MGTOW is growing.

From 2009-2015 MGTOW went from being a obscure movement to the largest wing of the “man-o-sphere”. Today, there a numerous blogs, forums, and Youtube channels that are devoted to MGTOW philosophy. Do a simple google search for MGTOW and see for yourself.

9) If you want to stop this growth you have to change what causes men to go their own way.

If MGTOW's growth is alarming to you then you're going to have to change what causes them to go MGTOW. Which means change the divorce courts, the attack on masculinity, the institution of marriage, social expectations on men, etc. Things such as shaming them, calling them “man-boys”, having white-knights attack them, and other methods will do nothing to stop this growth. The problem people have with this is that to a certain degree they are going to have to assign blame to themselves (* cough* straw feminists). They're are many honest reasons a man will go his own way, just ask one.

10) MGTOWS are not afraid of being alone.

When I talked about MGTOW to a female friend, she asked “Aren't they afraid of being lonely ?” The answer to this question was no. To a MGTOW, being alone does not mean being lonely. He may not have a girlfriend or a wife but he still have friends, family, and his hobbies to keep him occupied. A MGTOW has no need for female companionship. >

MGTOW_Monger · 2017-02-22T02:16:58+00:00

And most importantly, simply fug off. Don't care whether u join any side.

Take your debate to your own mom and see where that gets u

The 'obligatory' peace and love and shit.

For me freedom

587Boat · 2017-02-22T04:08:28+00:00

My response? My response is that you're free to believe anything you like. I'm at the very least intellectually free, and I don't care what you think or believe. I need no one's validation for my choices.

If that doesn't fend off the criticisms, a simple (expletive of your choice) should pretty well cover it.

Coluphid · 2017-02-22T18:10:41+00:00

ideology of the world must be challenged by debate.

Stopped right here.

It's a noble notion, and one that applies in many circumstances, but trying to reach or influence women is not one of them.

Women do not function on logic. They function on emotion.

Decision making, priorities, values, perspectives; all of these are constructed not on the basis of objective reasoning and cold logic. They are based on how she feels at the time.

As such, all the well constructed arguments in the world, supported by reams of data, references and corroborating evidence, means nothing to her.

Sure you could technically construct your 'argument' to instead be an appeal to emotion. But in doing so you're departing logic and reason for demagoguery and outright manipulation.

It is good that we stand up and challenge injustices with a whole heart. But we must recognize problems and the appropriate solutions to them. We must fight with our strengths, not our weaknesses, and lastly we should appropriately measure and value those who are not capable of functioning on a Civilized level.

DivineComedyPunch- · 2017-02-22T04:50:18+00:00

Thanks guys. Among the expected "go fuck yourself" and "ask your mom" comments, I found some genuinely helpful and informative responses. I'm sorry if I offended you, I just wanted to bring the main counter argument to the table. It's the answers that show the strength of a belief.

Title	Devil's (women's) Advocate
Author	DivineComedyPunch-
Upvotes	2
Comments	13
Date	February 21, 2017 8:27 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/5vdxko/devils_womens_advocate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/devils-womens-advocate.606013 https://theredarchive.com/post/606013

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