Don’t be that guy

[–]TowerOfMG63 points64 points65 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]NathanHollister29 points30 points31 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DWShimoda2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]StrongAffordance2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 7 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

Fucking Ashley.

[–]Saix1713 points14 points15 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 7 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like we both had an Ashley. Lol

Mine is now 42, on disability for mental illness and lives in the middle of nowhere.

But man could she suck a cock back in the day. Just ask...well.....anyone!

[–]grizzer995 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Ok. It's confirmed. Ashley is everywhere apparently. Lol

[–]grizzer994 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MarketWatcher94563 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]DWShimoda0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It's only profitable to split a house into a duplex and get twice the rent.

This presumes you want to be both "owner" AND "landlord" -- and you actually WANT (or are able to tolerate) series of tenants living right next door to you (which is not all that different from being stuck in an apartment building).

No thanks.

Having a house as a residence is pretty expensive by comparison. I have a 2.2k sq foot personal residence and if I added up all the expenditures I'd be better of renting.

I bought a place (with a std payment NOT all that much higher than I was paying per month to rent an equivalent sized house* {but the rental didn't have paved drive or garage, or land, etc}) -- then paid it off ASAP (8 years total -- see my other comment ITT), and now my monthly expenses (prop taxes, utilities & maint/repair) are VASTLY lower than (about half of) what I was paying in rent (1990's dollars) on that far LESSER property...

Today... I wouldn't even be ABLE to rent a stand-alone (small) home for less than TRIPLE what I was paying in rent back then. (And -- due to inflation -- about 6x to 8x more than what my monthly costs are now.)

* And I was getting a GOOD deal on that rent, far below what the "going rate" was -- there were certain "special circumstances"** with the landlords (people I knew) such that they preferred to rent to me at that lower price, rather than seek higher rent from anyone else.

** Among other things, I had agreed to do a bit of "fixing up" (they paid materials, I supplied DIY labor), and to handle any/all of the "maintenance" on the house, as well as the home in front (it was a weird two-residence property) -- allowing them to be "absentee" landlords, and to focus on other things (tough family problems) -- worked out well for everyone for about 7 years. Really only moved because of a job/career change (well that, AND I wanted my own place, with garage, etc -- I was tired of working on my vehicles on a sloping gravel driveway, plus I wanted a workshop, etc, etc).

[+][deleted] 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]Karmaisthedevil0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NathanHollister0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DWShimoda0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]NathanHollister1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DWShimoda0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Investors could never buy all the houses

Not if they were forced to pay CASH.

If they were cheap, a regular Joe could save up for a few years and buy one. Even if it were bought at a premium from an investor, it would still be less than the average schmuck pays in interest over 30 years.

And this is actually the way it USED to be -- back before FDR's "New Deal" and HIS "invention" of the 30-year mortgage (big gift to his banker-backers, the one's he ostensibly "fought against" {LOL as if...}) -- the most common way people bought houses was to save up 50% down, and then take out a (generally 5 year) "Balloon Loan" for the other 50% -- and of course they bought far more "modest" homes as well (you would "add on" as your family/other "needs" grew).

Forced people to put a lot more "skin in the game" -- and actually kept banker "interest" significantly LOWER than it has become in the decades since.

Proof of that is the % of GDP that the "financial sector" was at the time (trivial) -- versus what it is now (the LARGEST single sector).

[–]NathanHollister1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]DWShimoda0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Of course, easy credit encourages people to buy much bigger homes because MPAI so they get the biggest house they can afford instead of the biggest house they need.

Yup, and Realtors as well as Bankers tend to push people to "buy as MUCH house as you can afford" -- phrased exactly like that.

Of course what the Realtors & Bankers really mean by that is simply PRICE.

Also, FDR took us off the gold standard in 1933

AND (unconstitutionally) demanded that everyone turn in their gold coin.

Then almost immediately after that was essentially done, the fucker (massively) devalued the currency. Which made everyone holding "cash" (including any "savings" denominated & recorded as such) significantly poorer -- and likewise with everyone who had contracted for a certain wage... they got an instant MAJOR (real dollar) pay CUT. He basically "divorce raped" & ass-fucked everyone in the working classes (probably 80% of the country, lower & middle classes).

The TRUE short term impact of that -- the perpetuation of the depression for a full decade and more -- is something that academically trained economists are all (still) in completely oblivious denial about.

so he could print money to pay for his new deal. We've been paying for it in inflation ever since.

To pay for his New Deal (the majority of which was to ensconce his cronies in bureaucratic positions, in order to then reassure his re-election... forever) yes... but also to fund a MASSIVE armament buildup, because he was an insane (arguably megalomaniacal) warmonger all his life.

People who think that WWII - and the US entry into it -- were caused by Pearl Harbor, or Nazism, etc ... are very, VERY naive.

Most people love him because they don't understand how inflation is a hidden tax on the poor.

Not just that, most people "love" him because -- as with many "dictators" -- the media glorified and praised him (or a false version of him), and via intense levels of propaganda "sold" him to the masses ... moreover the (((media))) has really never stopped glorifying him ever since.

No (((need))) to wonder why either, it's self-evident.

[–]NathanHollister1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DWShimoda1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NathanHollister1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DWShimoda1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

If you can't afford to pay for your house in cash, you shouldn't buy one. You end up paying 80-110% more money for your house over a 30 year mortgage in interest. Even a 15 year mortgage means an extra 25-30%

I'm gonna upvote you even though you're NOT entirely correct.

Because, it depends on your situation.

If you are LITERALLY ready to quit renting and buy (and then OWN/stay long term, as in decades or rest of your life) -- that is have a decent/sizable down payment, but a MODEST home that you can actually afford (not "as much house as you can make payments on") and then arrange your finances to pay down the principal in a MAJOR way during the first few years --** then there ARE ways to minimize the total interest** to a relatively trivial amount (basically about the same total cost as the house's value is likely to be at by the time you pay the mortgage off {Waaay Early}).

That's what I did... I had a ~25% down payment (still keeping sufficient "emergency" and other cash savings in reserve*) -- and then proceeded to basically make triple-payments for the first couple years -- and even at the (egregious) interest rate of 8% APR (which was a GOOD rate back at the time**), I managed to pay the whole thing off in ~8 years (could in fact have paid it off about 2 years earlier, but by then I'd reduced the balance to the point that the remaining interest was trivial). Total interest cost ended up being only an extra 10% of the original price of the home.

The house's "value" (assessed & so called "fair market") had -- of course -- gone on a ROLLER-COASTER ride (doubled the tripled, then crashed back down) during the subsequent housing bubble & bust (I bought circa 2000)... but in general, the cost has stabilized so that the additional mortgage interest I paid really didn't negatively affect my equity (if anything, I was far better off buying when I did -- even ignoring the rent I saved by doing so -- than if I had waited until I'd saved up 100% of the purchase price).

Not that I really gave a shit either way. I didn't buy the place in order to try to "flip" it (in fact I really don't intend on selling it, EVER, I'll probably die here) ... I bought it because I wanted to LIVE here (was sick of renting, wanted a garage, workshop, land for garden & fruit trees, etc) -- and have happily done so (ZERO regrets) for the past 18+ years now.

* Which you ALWAYS need to do, because there are ALWAYS additional expenses post-purchase, in my case a good couple thousand dollars: literally the day AFTER I moved in there was a massive snowstorm, like 2 ft in less than 6 hours while I was at work -- had to buy a BIG snowblower ASAP, else I couldn't have even gotten back into/up the drive to the house -- that was an "anticipated" expense, I just didn't think I would need to do it THAT fast; similarly I had already known that my old rear-wheel drive sedan just WASN'T the right vehicle for the locale in wintertime (lots of hills, including my driveway), and less than a month after moving in I had acquired a 4x4 SUV (used, relatively cheap, & bought for cash -- was a good deal -- in fact 18+ years later I'm still driving it).

** As I noted, this was circa 2000 -- right after the "dot com" crash -- and a few years before the "housing bubble."

Also the thing most people DON'T realize is that LOW interest rates are NOT necessarily a "blessing" -- all that really happens is that when the rates are LOW the competition for homes (number of eligible buyers) increases, which tends to drive prices UP -- and the converse is true when interest rates are HIGH (prices are then relatively LOW) -- the reason is simple: people don't buy based on PRICE, they buy based on "what the monthly payment will be"... and when done on a self-amortizing loan that means LOW-interest = HIGH-price paid. (They don't necessarily get any better/bigger house; they just pay a higher upfront price for it.)

[–]NathanHollister1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DWShimoda0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

First paragraph- Yes, but there are so few people in that situation it's not worth mentioning.

Yeah but we're talking about (or to) MGTOW here; and there OUGHT to be a higher percentage of them who ARE in that "situation" (i.e. ready to live in a place LONG TERM) when/if they decide to "buy" -- and if they're NOT (if they need/want to still be "mobile/flexible" in their residence) then they shouldn't buy, they should continue renting.

Also, it's wonderful that the value went up, but if you factor in the cost of insurance, property tax, maintenance, etc, it ends up losing money. I understand you didn't view it as an investment, and my comment was directed to the people who do. You know, they guy who says he bought a house for 100k and doubled his money, disregarding the 130k he spent over the course of living there.

Yes, but you HAVE TO LIVE SOMEWHERE regardless -- and rarely is that going to be "FREE" -- so yes you can factor in insurance, property tax, etc; but you need to look at that IN CONTEXT as opposed to what you would otherwise be spending in rent.

EDIT: Just re read the last paragraph, so I see we are in agreement

Yes, and ironically enough to your point about "total interest" -- though this is difficult to get people to fully grasp -- the fact that my interest rate was relatively HIGH when I bought it, not only served to keep the sale/purchase price relatively LOW, but it also gave me every incentive to pay that fucker off FAST. Because I was literally "under contract" to pay 8% interest, well that meant every $1,000 I paid off in the first year was SAVING me the equivalent of 29+ years of interest at 8%... basically the same effect as if I had invested in some "bond" that GUARANTEED me 29+ years of 8% interest. (And then of course likewise the following years, albeit only 28+ years, then 27+ years, etc).

Despite what stock brokers will tell you -- about presumed future "average annual" returns on investments -- there is virtually NO other investment could have made that would have GUARANTEED me that return. Ergo, even in "actuary" terms, paying my place off early/fast was basically the BEST "investment" available.

Now granted, had I been chiefly interested in "quick cash" -- and able to PREDICT the timing of the housing bubble "peak" & ensuing "bust" -- then I probably COULD have sold the place off around when I paid it off (2007/2008), reaped a TRIPLE price on the place, rented something else for a couple of years, and then come back in circa 2010/2011) a bought the same damned house (or similar) for probably LESS than I had paid back in 2000.

But that would have been a ROYAL pain the arse.

Instead, I just pulled my OTHER investments (stocks, etc) OUT of the market at/near the peak -- and did some "bottom feeding" (some of which worked out: Thanks DTG woohoo!, and some of which didn't: Fuck you WAMU... Dammit!) which garnered me enough to basically keep me content for years to come. ;-)

[–]NathanHollister0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're MGTOW, then it's just you, so you don't need a house. Why would you spend all that money on a living area intended for a family when you are a bachelor? That seems like a waste of money. That fact that you may have extra money doesn't mean you should be inclined to spend it poorly. Also, many people who are MGTOW just waste their money buying stupid things for themselves instead of for their wives and kids. Most people will never do what you did even if they have the money.

Rent cheaply, and invest all the extra you would be spending monthly on a house in the stock market at 10% average annual return. You'll be doing way better financially speaking. A house is a money pit, and it ties up a huge amount of capital even if you can buy it in cash. That's money that can't be working for you.

Paying off your mortgage fast did give you a great return, but paying no interest and investing money instead averages a 10% annual return. Even if you are able to expunge debt quickly, it is still better to never have it in the first place, financially speaking.Imagine if you had lost your job at any point while you were paying off your house....

[–]DWShimoda1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're MGTOW, then it's just you, so you don't need a house.

Not true. Go back and actually re-read my original reply to you, I explained the reasons why I wanted to OWN a house.

Why would you spend all that money on a living area intended for a family when you are a bachelor?

It isn't a "family sized house" -- it's a small 2 Bedroom (actually more like a 1-1/2 bedroom), 1 bath "cottage" home -- gives me LOTS more room than the typical apartment (or the "man-cave" the married idiots end up with); but yet it's not excessive.

CHIEF gain was:

(A) control, I can do whatever I frigging want to the place; and

(B) land, which I again control (within reason), allowing me to change the landscaping, garden, plant fruit trees (which I did at purchase, and they now bear quite nicely, most years I have apples & pears & raspberries coming out my arse).

(C) outbuildings, including a decent garage (already constructed, since insulated, heated, finished & equipped into a decent car-repair/refurb shop), as well as a dedicated woodworking shop (which I built DIY alongside the garage); and probably soon a second "workshop" addition (this time for metal machining, etc) onto the back of the garage.

And then also (last but FAR from least; by which I mean it is NOT "trivial")...

(D) security & peace of mind -- I don't have to be concerned about someone else (landlord, property manager, property owner, some NEW property owner, etc) fucking me over in terms of my costs -- to be sure there IS still the risk of property tax changes, but despite the hand-wave-dismissal of that by renters, they face that as well (just in an indirect "hidden" manner, buried in their rent) -- and the effect of that, in terms of reduced anxiety or "cares" (concern about possibly of not only having rents raised, but of alternatively having to "move house" {again & yet again} and all the associated P.I.T.A. of that), is in my personal opinion, and per MY priorities almost "priceless."

Relative to that last, there is also an ADDITIONAL aspect...

(E) I am [virtually] "off grid capable" -- that is the house I own is entirely capable of being heated by a woodstove/fireplace (and in fact during a major winter storm a decade and a half ago, I was forced to do exactly that over one weekend); moreover, while I would be loathe to do so I have sufficient trees (non-fruit bearing) on my property to provide enough fuel for several winters; in addition, I have sufficient land that I could (obviously with some effort) expand my garden to provide a more substantial amount of my food (at present I only grow a minor fraction, more for "taste" than frugality), and probably raise chickens, rabbits etc. -- it's not a large enough plot of land to feed some large family, but would likely be sufficient to my own needs as an individual (especially as I could doubtless supplement it with additional work, either in my shop and/or some outside job). Again not quite "off grid" but the potential is there (certainly in a far more "independent" fashion than any urban-apartment-dweller, who would likely be at the mercy of government handouts/rationing).

That seems like a waste of money.

Depends on one's priorities in life. MONEY is just a tool; if your ONLY life goal is to build up some massive pile of it -- and never actually USE it for anything that provides purpose or value in your life -- then frankly... you're a damned fool.

That fact that you may have extra money doesn't mean you should be inclined to spend it poorly.

I don't. In fact I am VERY frugal -- owning my own place (with house room for laundry, etc; as well as garage to maintain vehicles & shop to create my own things) is a significant contributory PART of that frugality -- I spend my money carefully and wisely according to MY priorities.

Financial "nominal" perspective is NOT necessarily "wise."

Also, many people who are MGTOW just waste their money buying stupid things for themselves instead of for their wives and kids. Most people will never do what you did even if they have the money.

Of course... MGTOW doesn't change the fact that MPAI.

But of course -- as previously mentioned above -- there are many ways to be an "idiot" regarding money; and amassing more and more as if that were an END GOAL by itself is not the least of the idiocies.

Most extremely RICH people are in fact miserable, despite the facade (I know many such men -- personal friends and/or relatives of mine -- I wouldn't swap places with them... ever).

Rent cheaply, and invest all the extra you would be spending monthly on a house in the stock market at 10% average annual return. You'll be doing way better financially speaking. A house is a money pit, and it ties up a huge amount of capital even if you can buy it in cash. That's money that can't be working for you.

Paying off your mortgage fast did give you a great return, but paying no interest and investing money instead averages a 10% annual return. Even if you are able to expunge debt quickly, it is still better to never have it in the first place, financially speaking.

That 10% return is bullshit.*

Oh it's true in certain (limited) circumstances -- but than again, the whole "house flipping" thing was also a "true" path to wealth... for a brief period of time, and in certain circumstances.

RIGHT NOW -- just as at/near the "peak" of the housing bubble -- it certainly LOOKS like investing in the broad stock market is a truly WISE/SAVVY way to get rich -- but of course the present stock market is an inflated "bubble"; one that is almost CERTAIN to crash...

And then -- if you didn't "time the market" right (and few do or can) -- that long period of ostensible 10%+ annual gains will go "poof."

* Cf The Flaw of Averages -- note especially the four chart set showing identical $$ S&P investments made in 1973, 1974, 1975 & 1976. Give you ONE guess which of those charts any "investment manager" will show you (and which three he will keep assiduously tucked away someplace you CANNOT see). The entire financial industry is based around this (and similar kinds) of highly selective "creative averaging/graphing" shenanigans.

Imagine if you had lost your job at any point while you were paying off your house....

Well, first of all, I was also saving (cash) and investing (paper assets) at the same time -- I didn't go "balls in" on the mortgage payments.

Secondly, the place I purchased -- even the standard payment (w/o refinancing to a lower rate, which I could easily have done {even looked into, but given amount I already HAD reduced the principal to, and the rate was paying it off, the costs of refinancing were a "wash"}) -- even the standard payment was a amount that (quite INTENTIONALLY & PURPOSEFULLY) I knew I could EASILY have afforded to make from the lowest-wage job.

And due to inflation, long before I paid it off, the (std) monthly payment it was already less than what most people elsewhere were paying in rent (and LESS than I would have had to pay in rent myself, even rent on a relatively small apartment).

Finally -- and somewhat ironically given your presumed "scary" scenario -- I actually quit my job about 2-1/2 years PRIOR to paying the place off -- and reverted to making only the STD payment (freeing up cash flow to finish/equip the garage & workshop, etc).

I purposefully/intentionally quit and switched over to being "semi-retired" (in my early 40's) and running my own part-time consulting business (which for the next few years I paradoxically made MORE from in annual income terms) -- while in addition to the shop stuff -- also gave me time to carefully manage my investments personally (gaining a significantly higher return in short order than your measly 10%... hell DTG alone was a 15-bagger in just a little over a year!) which overall gave me significant NET investment gains as well (in total, I literally tripled what I had put in).

In the end, I chose to pay the last of the mortgage off (on which there were about 2 more years of relatively modest std payments left) -- basically because I was just sick and tired of having to do the transaction every month. Making that last payment only put a minor "dent" in my checking account balance at the time (didn't even need to tap any of my savings, much less investments).

You see I don't -- and never have -- seen life as being about living to "work, save & invest" (and accumulate some "massive pile of currency-denominated imputed-value" paper assets) ... rather I have worked, saved & invested in order to LIVE the way I want to.

Better is an handful with quietness, than both the hands full with travail and vexation of spirit. -- Ecclesiastes 4:6

I have lots of friends (and indeed relatives) who -- in the world's eyes -- are far richer than me...

And yet -- given the degrees of "travail and vexation of spirit" that I invariably SEE in their lives -- I am actually FAR richer than any of them. I do as I please, and am generally "free from care."

[–]metallicdrama6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Title	Don’t be that guy
Author	sfk93
Upvotes	278
Comments	72
Date	January 23, 2019 3:23 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/aj0qmm/dont_be_that_guy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/dont-be-that-guy.416979 https://theredarchive.com/post/416979

Comments

Because, it depends on your situation.

Better is an handful with quietness, than both the hands full with travail and vexation of spirit. -- Ecclesiastes 4:6