Michael J Malone: Blaming men for so-called toxic masculinity is nothing more than lazy sexism

[–]shit-zen-giggles 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Really good article throughout.

Thanks for sharing OP

Indeed, they are more likely to follow the patterns set down by their parents and their traumatised brains, but it is only the boys whose behaviour, as they grow into men, will be reduced to a lazy shorthand and what has become clichéd thinking.

Our prisons are full of people who have experienced physical, verbal or sexual abuse. Estimates vary, but I’ve read studies that put the number of men in prison to have experienced sexual abuse, either as children or adults, at anything between 60-80%.

There are thousands of men who find themselves in prison as a direct consequence of falling into drug and alcohol abuse as a way of “coping” with their trauma. Couldn’t one argue that attributing their actions to their masculinity being toxic amounts to victim blaming?

[–]live_in_reality 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Sailbad_the_Sinner30 -17 points-16 points-15 points 4 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]TrilIias 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner30 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]TrilIias 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

I’m sorry, but we’re not responsible for how 20 year old tik tokkers use our jargon!

Are you sure about that? I think it was reckless to use a term that seems to associate masculinity with toxicity. It's not like the side that invented the term is okay with words like "fireman," "policeman," "mankind," and so on. Y'all understand the importance of language, and I'd even argue that there's a tendency to go overboard in attributing significance to minor semantic details. And yet "toxic masculinity" seems fine?

My criticism of the term "toxic masculinity" is separate from my criticism of the concepts it describes (both the original academic concept and the one that has become popular). Y'all created a bad term that was simply begging to be weaponized against men, and whatever you specifically may intend, I think that feminists for the most part absolutely wanted this outcome while also wanting their plausible deniability.

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner30 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

I didn’t invent the term. But it’s one of those things like “feminicide”, “black lives matter”, or “post modernism” that makes perfect sense until idiots and fools make a conscious effort to misinterpret it.

No theorist I am aware of — no sane one, at least — has ever said masculinity is ipso facto toxic. And yes, I realize that there are a lot of empty headed twenty somethings who like reading it that way.

Also? I don’t think there’s a clearly defined “side” that uses this term. A wide variety of people with decidedly different outlooks and agendas employ it. Furthermore, I don’t see it being “weaponized” against men. You or me feeling upset because some idiot on reddit it downvotes us for “toxic masculinity” hardly qualifies as “use of weapons”. I would be interested in seeing how you feel you have been significantly negatively impacted by this term, outside of pissing matches on the internet.

Finally, cool. You don’t like the term. OK. I am open to suggestions for replacing it. I do agree it is subject to misinterpretation. So what would you suggest?

[–]TrilIias 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

I obviously know you didn't invent the term. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to these specific examples, but I haven't seen “feminicide,” “black lives matter,” or “post modernism” "misinterpreted" to nearly as great of an extent as "toxic masculinity" (okay maybe I'll agree on postmodernism). "Toxic masculinity," by its very design is more vulnerable to abuse.

No theorist I am aware of — no sane one, at least — has ever said masculinity is ipso facto toxic.

Then may I introduce you to John Stoltenberg who said that 'talking about 'healthy masculinity' is like talking about 'healthy cancer." I mean he was a gay man who married Andrea Dworkin, so I guess you could convince me that he was not sane.

Also? I don’t think there’s a clearly defined “side” that uses this term.

I think we both know who is responsible for popularizing the term, and that would be feminists. It may be true that it's not only feminists who use it, but that's only because feminism has wide influence, and you won't find enough antifeminists who use it unironically to back your point.

I don’t see it being “weaponized” against men. You or me feeling upset because some idiot on reddit it downvotes us for “toxic masculinity” hardly qualifies as “use of weapons”. I would be interested in seeing how you feel you have been significantly negatively impacted by this term, outside of pissing matches on the internet.

I don't mean that it's used to target individual men or even just that it does the most damage by being applied to specific actions by such individual men. I mean that it is used to fuel the general vilification of men. It convinces people that men are not to be trusted, they are dangerous or evil, dare I say "toxic," at least relative to women. That attitude is then used to justify ignoring men's problems or at least blaming men for everything wrong with the world, and even for making the world more dangerous for men. For example, people tend to assume that domestic violence is something primarily done by men against women, when the actual statistics show that this is the least common form of domestic violence. But it doesn't matter, because that false perception leads to things like the Duluth Model, which change policy. By the way, that guy I cited earlier just calls it "male pattern violence," and feminists like Katherine Spillar have said that domestic violence is just a clean up word for "wife-beating." Those are the sort of misandrists pushing the concept of "toxic masculinity."

I have a problem with men being arrested after calling the police because they thought the police would help them after being abused by their female partners. I don't just have a problem with "pissing matches on the internet."

Finally, cool. You don’t like the term. OK. I am open to suggestions for replacing it.

I don't even agree with the concept it describes, so I'm not in a good position to recommend a term.

I do agree it is subject to misinterpretation.

Good. You think it was an accident?

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner30 -5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

What? You missed all that “All lives matter” stuff?

How?

I think we can both agree that Stoltenberg was neither sane nor a serious theorist. I understand the logic behind what he was saying, but that’s neither here nor there. The guy certainly isn’t anyone’s “go to” when it comes to toxic masculinity except, perhaps, for polemicists.

I don’t see feminists as being a clearly defined side. Also, queer theorists — many who are in bitter conflict with certain branches of feminism — use toxic masculinity, as well as guys like me who are, at best, the bastard sons of feminism.

This ain’t a football game or a “Dodge vs. Chevvy” pissing match. There are a hell of a lot of different sides in play.

So, summing up your argument about the “weaponization” of the term, you really can’t point to how it has harmed men except in vague and general terms? Because I can point to a whole raftload of terms that have been used to vilify and really fuck over women, legally, socially, culturally, and any which way, beginning with “whore”.

When men start getting stopped and frisked for looking like an example of “toxic masculinity” or when they lose jobs because of it, then I think we might start talking about its “weaponization”. Being irritated by Facebook feminists doesn’t count.

As for “ignoring men’s” problems…. Sigh. I sympathize. But you know who are the main people who need to pay attention to men’s problems? Men. And you know who largely doesn’t give a fuck? Men. So I really don’t think the big problem here is feminism.

I have taken a long, hard look at domestic violence stats and am well aware that women aren’t as blameless as many people presume. But I have also seen the best evidence presented for the idea that violence is pretty much equal between men and women and it really isn’t. Not by a long shot. Male violence tends to be more physical, more prolonged, more life threatening. And sure, maybe it is because more men are more likely conditioned to resolving problems with their fists. That does not mean all men are equally violent.

In fact, what we’ve found in large N studies time and again is that men who are violent to women also tend to be violent to other men and children. And yet I see very little discussion about this phenomenon among men who are concerned with domestic violence. In fact, I see zero. And I find that strange, given that we — men — are much more likely to be attacked and even killed by other men. The almost complete lack of discussion of that among men is deafening and makes me wonder if the men who bring up the supposed ubiquity of domestic violence against men are really wanting to talk about it.

There is definitely a male pattern violence. And a female pattern. I see it in my work all the time. Remember: I work with sex workers and johns and I am full-square behind the complete decriminalization of prostitution. But Jesus H. Christ, do sex working men and women get beaten and killed a lot and it is almost always by men. I literally have thousands of hours of stories about this and, believe me, there is a pattern to this violence and it is very definitely male.

As for toxic masculinity being “accidently” prone to misuse or being designed this way… Oh, please. C’mon, man. The only group of people radical feminists hate more than men is other feminists. You are really moving off into the realm of conspiracy theoretizing if you think some feminist cabal intentionally invented this term just to make you feel uncomfortable on the internet.

Regarding the Duluth model, we are agreed that its premises may be off. Still, I don’t see it as being actively harmful to men. It may not be useful at all for the same reason that john schools are pretty much useless. But I don’t see the Duluth Model making the world a worse place for you or me.

[–]TrilIias 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

What? You missed all that “All lives matter” stuff?

How?

I thought we were talking about "black live matter," not "all lives matter." My point was that I don't think it's comparable to the abuse of the term "toxic masculinity" and clearly it isn't if in your example the term wasn't abused, it was entirely changed.

I think we can both agree that Stoltenberg was neither sane nor a serious theorist.

To b clear, my problem with "toxic masculinity" isn't that I think it was supposed to refer to all masculinity. I know it wasn't, even if that was the result.

I don’t see feminists as being a clearly defined side. Also, queer theorists — many who are in bitter conflict with certain branches of feminism — use toxic masculinity, as well as guys like me who are, at best, the bastard sons of feminism.

And which of those groups are remotely sympathetic to men's rights? Which of them disagree with the defining trait of feminism, which is the belief that women are oppressed by men? I don't really see the utility in nitpicking about where exactly lines are drawn. Everyone knows that fuzzily speaking there's a higher tendency for people on the feminist side to perpetuate the notion of "toxic masculinity" than on the antifeminist side. I'm sure there are some exceptions and I'm sure that assessment misses some nuances, but for the purposes of this discussion I'm sure it's sufficient to get the point across.

you really can’t point to how it has harmed men except in vague and general terms?

General terms I suppose. Is there a problem officer? But vague terms? is it of no help that I pointed to a specific tangible example (Duluth Model)?

When men start getting stopped and frisked for looking like an example of “toxic masculinity” or when they lose jobs because of it, then I think we might start talking about its “weaponization”.

Again, Duluth Model. The most common domestic violence policy in the U.S. Listen to people like Michael Paymar (one of the creators), the main focus is to change policy. I specifically gave you an example of a male victims of domestic violence being arrested and jailed for being a male victim. This has actually happened to a lot of men.

But you know who are the main people who need to pay attention to men’s problems? Men. And you know who largely doesn’t give a fuck? Men. So I really don’t think the big problem here is feminism.

You think I and other MRAs aren't trying to convince men that it's okay to advocate for their rights? We are, but men have an outgroup bias. They don't like to advocate for their own rights, and to make matters worse they tend to think that they are privileged and they often think they have more rights than women, so they think the idea of a men's rights movement is absurd. Ask anyone to name a right men have that women don't in the West. No one can. So why do men think such rights exist? Am I to believe feminism had nothing to do with that?

am well aware that women aren’t as blameless as many people presume.

Well then you're doing better than most feminists and even most non-feminists, but those people still need convincing.

Male violence tends to be more physical, more prolonged, more life threatening. And sure, maybe it is because more men are more likely conditioned to resolving problems with their fists.

Or maybe it's because we don't arrest women who are in abusive relationships when they call the police for help. Maybe it's because there are shelters where they can escape to. Most violent couples have two violent partners. You think giving women an escape route might keep them from feeling trapped and like extreme violence is their only way out? I doubt this was what feminists intended, but by ignoring male victims they actually may have only made things worse for female victims.

men who are violent to women also tend to be violent to other men and children.

I actually assumed that this was the case. I'd also assume it applies to women. What about this is supposed to interest MRAs?

There is definitely a male pattern violence. And a female pattern. I see it in my work all the time... there is a pattern to this violence and it is very definitely male.

He wasn't talking about a male-pattern violence and a female-pattern violence, he was replacing "gender-based violence" with "male-pattern violence." The phrase is specifically designed to erase and excuse what you would call female-pattern violence. It was the same thing attempted by Katherine Spillar. Also, violence against sex-workers isn't the same as domestic violence. I'm sure men are more likely to commit most acts of violence, (but domestic violence seems to be an interesting exception). Where I disagree with feminists (and where you and I may not disagree) is that feminists think that men commit violence to scare women as a class into submission and to reinforce patriarchy. It's one of the core aspects of the Duluth Model, for example (see the power and control wheel). One of the other creators, Ellen Pence, later denounced this idea and the Duluth Model, by the way.

The only group of people radical feminists hate more than men is other feminists. You are really moving off into the realm of conspiracy theoretizing if you think some feminist cabal intentionally invented this term just to make you feel uncomfortable on the internet.

First of all, why are you acting like this is confined to the internet, and thus somehow irrelevant?

Second, feminists don't need to be completely unified to at least agree on some things. What do feminists and radical feminists disagree about? I'd bet it isn't over "toxic masculinity."

Third, I'm not arguing that feminists held some secret meeting where they sat in a circle in a dark room and asked how to subtly accuse all men of being toxic. I think feminists think of men as the enemy (even those who genuinely don't hate men seem to have a lot of complaints about men), so they were more tolerant to language that could unfairly demonize men. Then, whatever their intentions, they saw the real world result of people hearing the term and then associating masculinity with toxicity. And yet they didn't change anything. They didn't stop using the term, and they don't even stop to tell the 20 year olds on tik tok to stop attacking masculinity. Instead they tell us MRAs that "you don't know what toxic masculinity means, it doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic." I mean great, message received, but if you only ever tell me that I'm wrong and not the people attacking men and masculinity, I might start to suspect that you're okay with the results and only care about defending your own credibility.

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner30 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

My point with “black lives matter” is that it is a term that is easy to be turned against itself. We clear there?

With regards to “men’s rights”, I think most feminist groups are sympathetic to quite a lot of them. Anti-circumcision. Untrammeled military service. Dealing with male violence (which yes, is a thing). Even saner child support and custody reform. Here in Brazil, we have a really good system which was built largely by feminists. With the MRA as a movement? Not so much, given the number of shady characters in its ranks.

Me? I look at both MRAs and feminism critically and am willing to concede both have points. I’ll say this for most feminisms though: they do a much better job of conceptualizing and working on women’s issues than MRAs do on men’s.

Women have indeed been oppressed by men and still arguably are. For fuck’s sake, women don’t even have bodily autonomy in most places (and no, I am not talking exclusively about abortion here). If most MRAs I know had to deal with even a third of the shit women routinely put up with, they’d spontaneously erupt in a ball of aggrieved fury.

I co-mentored a brilliant young woman some years ago who’s now making a smashing career for herself. She’s about as level headed a person as I ever met and given that she was working with me, prowling brothels in Rio de Janeiro, she in no ways could be described as the stereotypical man-hating feminazi strawman MRAs love to build and set aflame.

She was a really tough, no-nonsense, Italian-descended woman who many cariocas thought was a dyke (she’s not).

At the end of our work together, she told a mutual acquaintance that I was pretty much the only male mentor in her entire intellectual career who didn’t come on to her. That blew me away. And I have heard that story again and again from female colleagues.

Every time I hear things like this, I think “And MRAs believe they are oppressed by women and living in a world run by women. Huh.”

You pointed to the Duluth Model. I agree that it may not work and that it seems to be based on some flawed premises. What I am not clear on is how you think its existence negatively effects you. I mean, seriously? If that’s all you can point to as some deeply oppressive structure you as a man live under, let me introduce you to my legion of female friends who’ve been busted for soliciting simply based on how they look.

[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner301 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DavidByron21 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah I don't know much about Brazil. There's quite a language gap presumably because Brazil is big enough to be it's own linguistic world. I don't remember seeing another commentator from Brazil in fact. French and Spanish speaking countries are rare here too.

if you don’t think there are schisms within feminism, you really haven’t been paying attention

Plenty of schisms but none over how evil men are. That's my point. For example in the USA a big division currently is over whether trans women should be treated as women. Feminist dogma is anti-trans but many feminists think being anti-trans makes the movement look bad. So there's a division.

There's no division over how shitty men are. There's no division over sexist attacks on men. At best you could say there's feminists who openly call for hatred and killing of all men and those who don't. But the hashtag #KillAllMen was popularized by feminists and there's no group of feminists saying "Oh wait! Calling for the killing of all men is not a good thing!"

you haven’t noticed feminist support for more and more powerful women in the military?

More for women? Sure. Feminists always demand sexism favouring women. Women must be allowed to join the military and must never be forced to. That's feminism.

I'm saying they are all anti-male.

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner301 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DavidByron21 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner301 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You don’t know of any? You don’t strike me as very informed about feminism, then. Search for black versus white feminisms, or abolitionist versus sex worker rights feminisms. I can give you a looooong laundry list, if you like.

It seems to me that you simply don’t know much about feminism if you think the TERF tiff is the only thing dividing them. I mean, you never have heard of SWERFs?

O.M.G. You mean to tell me people are talking shit on twitter? Pigs are flying. What people say, anonymously, on the internet is not a good barometer of politics, y’know?

Here’s something: find me one feminist movement — and I mean an honest-to-god movement, with real people’s names attached to it and some degree of political representation — that says Kill All Men. It should be easy, neh?

[–]DavidByron21 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You don’t strike me as very informed about feminism

Well at least I knew more women rape men than men rape men. You're the one with the track record of making ignorant claims in this conversation so far, and you don't know of any examples among English speaking feminist groups (ie groups I can validate).

Search for black versus white feminisms

You mean womanism vs feminism? But that's not an example of a split over how to treat men is it? Just more Oppression Olympics which regularly splits feminism. Honestly if you're going to try and insult me by saying I know nothing you need to come up with some facts yourself don't you think? Did you not understand that I said I don't know of any splits on the topic of how to treat men?

or abolitionist versus sex worker

Again not about how to treat men, is it? Both groups hate men equally. The pro-life feminists blame men for abortion and the pro-choice feminists blame men for anti-abortion laws. Both hate men, just blaming the men for different things.

I can give you a looooong laundry list

Yes you have proven good at misunderstanding and giving pointless examples. Now can you address the issue? What splits in the feminist movement have resulted over a disagreement on how to treat men? for example a split between feminists who want equality and the ones that hate men?

It seems to me that you simply don’t know much about feminism

Sounds like I know more than you so far.

if you think the TERF tiff is the only thing dividing them

I'm pretty sure your English is good enough to know I didn't say that was the only example. I'm not angry that you keep putting silly statements into my mouth but you do realize it's not getting you anywhere, right? It just makes you look foolish and look as if you can't respond any legitimate way.

Look back and you can see why I asked for an example of such a split. You claimed feminists don't all hate men. I said well if that was true then you'd see a split among feminists with the equality feminists opposing the sexist feminists, but you don't see this. I even said as extra evidence for my argument that you do see plenty of splits in the movement, so splits definitely happen over ideology, but not about how men should be treated. So you've been making my case for me in providing these extra examples.

As you've shown and as we now both agree feminism will create splits over ideology. Therefore where is the split over how to treat men? There is none because no feminists seriously disagree with the genocidal feminists who openly advocate for killing off all men and openly hate men (eg by saying "I hate men" and "women should hate men" and publishing best selling books called "I hate men")

O.M.G. You mean to tell me people are talking shit on twitter?

Are you suggesting it is common for hash tags advocating genocide to trend on Twitter? Can you give me an example please.

Pigs are flying

I think you rather wish pigs were flying but they are not, and although you pretend this is not a significant fact, of course it is.

Here’s something: find me one feminist movement — and I mean an honest-to-god movement, with real people’s names attached to it and some degree of political representation — that says Kill All Men. It should be easy, neh?

Like this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto

Anyway I noticed something interesting. When I told you that a lot of feminists go around saying all men should die you didn't respond by saying eg "that would be immoral" or "that would never happen" but you responded by defending the practice. Did you notice that? I noticed that. You tried to minimize it and make a sort of joke out of it. I suggest to you that if you cared about equality then you'd be the one with the problem with anti-male feminism but instead you're defending them. Why are you doing that?

[–]TrilIias1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner301 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The abolitionist versus sex worker schism is particularly big and touches directly upon what we are talking about here, because the pro sex work side of feminism is fighting to make sure clients and sex workers’ partners — male or female — are not criminalized.

Funny. Anti-client laws are a sure ‘nough example of a rare case where men legitimately ARE being discriminated against by the legal system. And in twenty years of working with sex workers, I have yet to see MRAs lift a finger on this issue.

Why is that?

My operative theory is that MRAs hate whores so much that they won’t even make common cause with them when it’s in their obvious interest. And what do we call that?

Black versus white feminism also splits along these lines. Black feminists have been pointing out for fifty years that black men are often better allies than white women and have heavily critiqued knee-jerk misandry in feminism. There are tons of critiques about “carceral feminism” and how it heavily impacts on black men. Look that term up.

The TERF stuff you already know about.

So, again, it seems to me that your real problem here is that you really haven’t paid much attention as to what has been going on in feminism. And that’s perfectly fine. But then you shouldn’t also be talking about what “feminists” want.

Also, as per usual, the thundering silence that occurs when I point out that feminists are fighting to get women into the military at all levels. To recognize that means that one would have to admit that one’s natural allies in making military service more equal would be feminists. But to do that, one would have to let go of the argument that historic men’s conscription is somehow women’s responsibility, neh? ;)

[–]TrilIias 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

My point with “black lives matter” is that it is a term that is easy to be turned against itself. We clear there?

I think my point stands that it isn't a good comparison.

With regards to “men’s rights”, I think most feminist groups are sympathetic to quite a lot of them... Dealing with male violence (which yes, is a thing)... Women have indeed been oppressed by men and still arguably are.

There you go. Being a typical feminist. I don't know what the point of this was, I really don't care if feminists pay lip service to some men's rights issues, if they plan on continuing the lies about how men oppress women then feminism can burn.

Even saner child support and custody reform.

And yet here in the U.S. the National Organization for Women has opposed every attempt to legalize default split custody, so I'm calling B.S.

Here in Brazil, we have a really good system which was built largely by feminists. With the MRA as a movement?

I don't know about in Brazil, but in the West MRAs have tried to change things, but we have a more difficult task. People do not care about men the same way they care about women. I'd recommend looking into Earl Silverman.

Women have indeed been oppressed by men and still arguably are. For fuck’s sake, women don’t even have bodily autonomy in most places

I'm sorry, you think men have bodily autonomy anywhere? I know you know about non-consensual circumcision. You mentioned it earlier. As for abortion, I'm pro-life, so yo won't convince me on that front.

If most MRAs I know had to deal with even a third of the shit women routinely put up with

I'm hardly convinced.

You pointed to the Duluth Model. I agree that it may not work and that it seems to be based on some flawed premises. What I am not clear on is how you think its existence negatively effects you. I mean, seriously?

Well it doesn't really effect me because I'm a gay man, but I'm half shocked that you can't see why arresting victims of domestic violence might be a bad idea and might be extremely harmful to someone. Do you think it might discourage men from coming forward to stop the abuse? Do you think it might be intensely painful to be taken away by police when you didn't do anything wrong? If you were a father, what would you do? Put up with the abuse so you could stay to protect your kids, or try to end it and risk being removed from them? Do you think suddenly having a criminal record despite being the victim might make it harder to secure custody of your kids, or to keep your job?

If that’s all you can point to as some deeply oppressive structure you as a man live under

I just gave one example, why are you assuming that that's "all I can point to?"

let me introduce you to my legion of female friends who’ve been busted for soliciting simply based on how they look.

I feel like you've completely forgotten what we were arguing about. We were arguing about the term "toxic masculinity." Let's assume for this argument that what women go through is 100 times worse than what men go through. To be clear, I'm not actually conceding that, but if I did it wouldn't matter. "Women have it worse" isn't a justification for injustice against men, no matter how small you think the injustice is. If "toxic masculinity" is a term being used as a weapon against men then it should be done away with, regardless of whether some other term is also used as a weapon against women. And the difference between you and me is that I'm not defending the word "whore" as a weapon against women, nor is the MRM or other antifeminists. But you and your feminist friends are certainly defending "toxic masculinity," and when you can't you just try to change the subject as a distraction.

I'm not impressed.

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner301 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m not sure I classify NOW as a particularly sane feminist group, but point taken. I do know California’s system is very fucked up and many feminists I talk to comment on that.

But, again, it’s sexist concepts that underlie this: the idea that women are “naturally” better care givers. Also? In my personal experience, absentee fathers are legion and don’t even take the opportunities they have to be with their kids. I do think default joint custody is the way to go, however. It is what we have here. Allied, mind you, with the fact that if you DON’T pay child support, you go directly to jail: do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Dude, women can’t even control their own reproduction TODAY. No can they walk down city streets without being harassed by the cops because they “look like” whores. Any way you cut it, they still have less bodily autonomy than men. And I really doubt you are “pro life”. I bet you are simply anti-abortion. I bet there are many, many people you’d happily applaud to see killed. And not just the obvious ones, either.

Friend, one of MRAs key ideas of being oppressed is conscription; which, note, few of them have been subjected to and which no longer exists in the vast majority of their countries. They also apparently feel oppressed by violence against men… except they aren’t willing to stand up against police violence or against male violence against men (the vast majority). Most of the ones I know in real life complain about non-default custody, but they don’t have nor want kids.

It seems to me the stuff MRAs bet worked up about is not legitimately women’s fault, is relatively minor shit, or is the clear result of male supremacism in the first place (i.e. women i the military).

Meanwhile the stuff that really IS huge problem for men — decent custody reform, violence against men, men’s health — that stuff seems to be either of secondary or even no importance whatsoever.

What most MRAs seem to have done is taken feminism’s rage machine, flipped it over, and then gone looking for things to be upset about.

The Duluth Model isn’t responsible for arresting victims of domestic violence: it’s solely focused on rehabilitating them. And, as I said, it may be operating under false presumptions.

[–]TrilIias 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner30 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Sailbad_the_Sinner301 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]waterim 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Michael J Malone: Blaming men for so-called toxic masculinity is nothing more than lazy sexism
Author	Heavy_Grand2526
Upvotes	82
Comments	29
Date	April 10, 2022 2:32 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/u087k5/michael_j_malone_blaming_men_for_socalled_toxic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/michael-j-malone-blaming-men-for-so-called-toxic.1110545 https://theredarchive.com/post/1110545

Comments