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mewacketergi Archive

View 17 posts and 2,009 comments by mewacketergi on TheRedPill subreddit and various other subreddits related to The Red Pill community.
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Upvotes Title Category Author Subreddit Date (UTC)
94

mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 11:11 PM
41

mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 11:01 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 08:16 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 06:58 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/01/20 04:51 AM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/04/20 11:52 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/07/19 01:09 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 06:29 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 10:23 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/03/20 11:56 PM
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Feminismmewacketergi/r/MensRights19/01/20 06:01 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 09:33 AM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/12/19 01:39 AM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/08/19 02:41 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/07/19 01:34 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/03/20 11:33 PM
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mewacketergi/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/07/19 01:19 PM
Showing the 1,000 most recent of 2,009 comments.
Upvotes Comment on Subreddit Date (UTC)
3

So many feminists will try to dismiss these people as "not real feminists" to which my replies lately have been. We often see feminists empathize an idealized, noble and beautiful platonic ideal of what feminism is supposed to be about. It supersedes and suppresses the controversial actions of the real-world, flesh-and-blood group people who self-label the same as they do. This makes me think that what we are dealing with is a religion, or so close to it, it's indistinguishable. This is the real…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 08:46 AM
3

And watch how rapidly they get ostracized and martyred and branded a heretic. Not our problem. The consequences of their cultish behavior is on them. EDIT: ...isolate themselves barely interacting with feminism or become a hostile angry shell of a person just like what happened to a lot of us. Hold on. What?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 08:17 AM
3

Exactly! Somehow, when feminism is not consistent enough to be criticized as a whole (according to the word on the street in the polite society), it is still somehow consistent enough to be supported as a whole.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 08:15 AM
1

Happy anniversary!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 07:19 AM
1

Thanks for playing your part in it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 07:19 AM
3

If you mean the dating apps and the like, then in my experience, they work well for a mere minority of people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 06:34 AM
1

I'm not sure how your point negates mine, or whether it is supposed to.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 06:29 AM
1

Yes, I would personally argue men have it worse in western countries, but again since it's comparing apples to oranges that's mainly a matter of opinion. It's also worth remembering that it's probably still better to be a poor man in a today's civilized First World country, compared to almost anybody else at a any point in history before.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/07/20 06:20 AM
1

Good luck.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/07/20 08:17 PM
0

Didn't the more extreme left-wing elements also move on?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/07/20 09:44 AM
1

Thank you for this sophisticated contribution to the conversation happening in this community.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/07/20 09:18 AM
6

I doubt that being blank slatist helps our case. Today we are pretty good at culturally compensating for biological biases when they no longer help in building a just, free and equitable society.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 11:14 PM
2

I don't agree with this assessment. There's usually something you can do, if you care to.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 11:11 PM
1

Look up something by Warren Farrel on instrumentalization, male disposability and the empathy gap, then come back and we can talk if you still have questions.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 11:03 PM
1

There's a lot less consensus in the MRM, or the men's movement in general about these things that you were led to believe.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 11:02 PM
6

It's kind of funny how these people morally equate a kind of consensual kinky porn they dislike with running a hate group. EDIT: It's healthy to keep these nutjobs in perspective: there's a mere handful of them, about 3k or so.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 10:58 PM
1

Your point is a true one, but we have a lot of the culturally dominant, but false narrative to chew through before it does catch on, so I'm not holding my breath.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 10:51 PM
1

I'd be interested in seeing this source.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 10:50 PM
2

The problem is it got loud and angry after being ignored for so long and being told it can not speak as well as suffering tons of mistreatment. I know all the excuses, and I'm reasonably sympathetic to them. However, the status quo still doesn't look particularly productive, and the mods I spoke to don't see this as a problem that should be addressed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 10:50 PM
1

I am not too sure it is the MRM who refuses to work together with others. I get it. I know that at the movement-wide level the point where you get complacent and start feeling good about yourself as you refuse to engage with others comes when you are culturally dominant, so that's definitely not us right now. My point that we should probably be deliberately seeking out those opportunities for collaboration and engagement stands, though.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 10:48 PM
1

Bad bot.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 06:37 AM
4

So its unfair to assume that r/Mensrights reddit shares the same sins as feminist subreddits and forums, which are quick to punish descent and free though in my experience. You are not wrong, but in practice, if your community is loud and angry enough, many people (particularly given the modern feminism's culture of fragility and shelteredness) will stay away as a matter of fact. It's nice when it happens, but in my experience, this engagement is too rare to be the norm. The Men's Rights Movemen…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 06:37 AM
7

Can you give an example of something which should not conclude that women are the true victims does? Women are the true victims of Covid-19 due to the increased stresses of many of them working in nursing, despite more men dying from the disease. And if you have compassion for men, you are mistaken, because allegedly humans who frequent r/Feminism just know that if men didn't smoke, ate better, washed their hands, and generally quit being men, the mortality rates would equalize, despite strong e…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/07/20 06:34 AM
3

I remember one time I brought up divorce law and their bourgeois response was, "that's why you get a prenup". I think the correct answer to this would be: "Signing a prenup is just not what normal people do, and we want the system as it actually exists to be fair and just towards normal representatives of our gender." But what about the rest of us? Exactly. To be fair, that elevator ride may be had by someone who was first attracted to the movement be a well placed meme. I'm not against memes, a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 11:54 PM
1

...you can collaborate with the GOP or any conservative church for that matter if you happen to share some aims with them; but that is not the same as seeing them as a permanent ally. I'm not saying that you have to worship at their altar! The principle "work together, as far as our shared goals permit" would allow us to be in a much better place as a movement, if most of us practiced it. The Emancipator story is rather horrible; I haven't told it here very extensively yet, I may someday. Please…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 11:51 PM
1

I'm not sure what point you are making.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 11:50 PM
17

For me, it is the quasi-religious belief that women are the True Victims of anything, and how theory that postulates this is effectively immune outside criticism. EDIT: Also, historic revisionism, and the anti-scientific blank slatism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 11:48 PM
33

Is anyone getting tired of the feminist trolls trying to bully this sub into being explicitly pro feminist? No, u/Stock_Elevator, precisely the opposite. I see this as a sign that our founder, u/serpentineeyelash, did a wonderful job writing the rules, and we are succeeding where no other space active in this conversation is doing well. It's good that we are filling the unique niche of an egalitarian men's issues subreddit where you are allowed to criticize all of the following: r/MensRights, r/…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 11:47 PM
1

It holds up the original from reframing mens issues as "not being mens issues" or "being the fault of men" Yep.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 09:57 AM
2

I find the original comic to be dangerous and ingenious propaganda that oversimplifies gender issues by problematizing men. Spread of propaganda like this is a problem – it displaces empathy and compassion away from men like CO2 displaces oxygen from a fire using the "but women are the real victims" narrative, which everyone across the political spectrum seems to love. It seems to originate somewhere with the far left, maybe with the 'slib school of "men's advocacy", where they like to think tha…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 09:56 AM
1

Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates. Maybe, maybe not.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 09:41 AM
1

Yes, they did a lot of cringy takes over the years, and I'm not a big fan of everydayfeminism.com. I guess that's something best dealt with on a case by case basis – maybe they have one team member who also did some non-awful pieces, and sometimes occasionally open to reason, and we could collaborate on something with that person? There's an opportunity in that. I had thinking along these lines in mind. EDIT: I missed the bit about the Emancipator. Care to tell more about it?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/07/20 09:40 AM
3

I imagine some of us could maybe politely ask someone like Bill or Melinda Gates in a shared elevator ride: "Why do you classify your charitable giving as "gender equality", when none of it caters to problems affecting young men and boys? Aren't they also human beings who suffer and need society's help?" (Exact choie of words up to your interpretation, and it's better to include problems to work on, preferably non-political, but you get the idea.) It's a pity that no POTUS before Trump seriously…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/20 06:56 PM
2

They have some genuinely good stuff every now and then, ... I'm sorry, but I trust Good Men Project as far as I can throw them. I am not their biggest fan, and I have no objections to this assessment. My point is, there is way too much fragmentation and disorganization in the men's movement right now, which is one of the key reasons why we keep losing politically, while vulnerable young men suffer. In the meantime, the women's movement manages to get its radicals and moderates working together w…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/20 06:46 PM
1

Unless you bulge is the kind of buldge that likes bulge into other bulges, wink-wink.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/20 06:23 PM
1

We aren't big enough to have a literal policy on how to handle commercial promotion yet, but this bit: It's a limited-time offer, ends today. People sometimes need a reminder. This just comes off as spam. EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/07/20 06:22 PM
11

What is this supposed to represent? Lack of self-awareness, or inability to afford therapy. EDIT: Also, a surprising level of honesty. Our world would be a better place, if more people who feel this way labelled themselves openly.
/r/MensRights29/06/20 11:16 PM
3

Feminists have a secret industrial facility that manufactures narratives fit to problematize anything. It works particularly well if this anything involves men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:55 PM
3

You are overlooking how feminists love to reinforce the traditional gender roles where they benefit them. For an instance, look at their Facebook, or Twitter: male critics of feminism are routinely bashed as having small penises, being sexually or professionally unsuccessful, ugly, being too close with their mothers, etc. Makes you think (or so I hope).
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:45 PM
4

One post promoting your book per week is probably enough.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:22 PM
2

I don't see anything great about the mainstream feminism being so far gone, we have to acknowledge having no hope of our humanity being recognized. But it's probably a fact we have to adapt to and overcome, yes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:21 PM
15

I don't think there's any miracle. I talked to its mods, and r/MensRights tries very hard to work with the Reddit admins, and a lot of its content is fairly okay, if angry and occasionally lacking in nuance. There's a good chance some of the new rules might be misinterpreted by political feminists to deplatform their opponents, if they cry hard enough, but then we will just have to stand and fight.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:21 PM
1

But is it a niche, if it's a bulge? Oh my...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:16 PM
7

I think I'm coming across to the point that was recently promoted by u/Melthengylf: we, as men's advocates, shouldn't care too much about reaching the women's movement and it's hard-boiled, deaf, and unempathetic idealogues, but should rather focus on reaching the powerful men who are overwhelmingly not our supporters.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:09 PM
3

Except when it's time for a certain movement with an -ism in its name to act in the interests of protecting the human dignity of men. Projects like this are vanishingly rare, and don't seem to last: https://goodmenproject.com/category/noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/06/20 10:05 PM
3

I'm an intactivist, so my goals require authoritarianism. I appreciate where you are coming from, but I really don't think your conclusion follows from your inputs. I also oppose democracy, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion as any of those things would ultimately result in circumcision being made legal even if it were banned at first. This doesn't make any sense to me. Guaranteeing that people have their rights is a desirable goal under many political systems.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 08:08 PM
4

Paternity tests in France are illegal when done outside the standard framework of the law. Meaning it must be mandated by a judge, when trying to establish paternity or contest child support. :( Spanish labs doing (locally legal) anonymous paternity tests report they have plenty of French clients though. Good.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 04:07 PM
11

"Authoritarian right" sounds like there are quite a few of those. :P
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 04:07 PM
1

This is a very good feature. Thank you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 04:05 PM
33

I don't agree with some of your current views, but it takes a lot of guts to share a story like this, so kudos. One thing I would try to reassure you – one can probably find a way to combine values one cares about without self-identifying with the extremist fringe (the horseshoe effect is probably real).
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 03:54 PM
1

That's a good point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 03:40 PM
2

It says "consumer genetic testing", which is broader, and could also be motivated by other concerns. Do we have any proof that the decision was motivated by anti-paternal certainty sentiment?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 02:56 PM
3

France outlawed paternity testing? Is there a link from a respectable source?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 02:06 PM
3

This isn't the case in my experience.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 11:47 AM
2

It’s called left wing male advocates after all, socially liberal people are supposed to support womens rights too. Please do not unthinkingly equate our criticisms of feminism with a lack of support for women's rights – we merely don't want these rights for others to come at the cost of our own dehumanization. I would encourage you to ask real world feminists (if you know any) what they think about mens rights issues instead of gravitating towards believing insane people represent an entire move…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 11:28 AM
2

.... feminism was succful because of traditional beleifs. for example giving extra protection for women and shaming men for being weak and mocking them when they are victim of violence by women instead of helping them. this wasn't invented by feminism . it was the norm even in 1900 and feminists expoited that norm to advance their agenda. This is true. I'm glad that this feminist success through exploiting traditionalist chivalary is becoming more widely known on this subreddit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 11:21 AM
1

Catherine MacKinnon is but one of many legal feminists, online MRAs are limited in their training and resources in this matter. This is a good point. We are several decades behind in this department. EDIT: An average person seems to underestimate how many feminists worked for decades to make the world a less hospitable and egalitarian place. This MacKinnon seems fundamentally religious in her outlook, anti-pornography, pro-censorship, and pro-discrimination in her practices. Surprising amount of…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 11:07 AM
1

This kind of conversation is not welcome in our community. Oh wait, I imagined that I was in the 'slib for a second.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 10:54 AM
2

I think most men have received most love from women, maybe it stems from mothers, and they came to expect them from it. Did you double-check and compare that with others' experiences?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 10:47 AM
17

I would be 100% okay with this pitch u/HumanSpinach2, were it used to change the minds of feminists who are supposed to be concerned with men's issues, but aren't. While I am not familiar with Vaush, in my experience, this argument is used to silence critics of feminism. It completely ignores the difference between the should-have-been-s and how things are (and were) in the women's movement. If you have concerns about the future of the non-feminist men's movement, look at the 'slib. How much did…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 10:41 AM
3

...it is still men the ones who have institutional power. Not the kind of power that shapes the fields with "studies" in their name. My point however was that to fight it we need to get men to see themselves more. Maybe? I don't know if this is true (in the sense whether it will fix the problem), or if really easily doable. I feel like, maybe, the "gender solidarity" thing have historically been for the women's benefit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/06/20 12:04 AM
3

Yes. In a short term it is indeed finite. In the moderate- to long-term, it is still relatively finite, if the unjust "portioning" of the pie remains stable – you'd have to grow it exponentially to beat that. Yes. In a short term it is indeed finite. Which again, it repeats my point: you have the causality backwards. I don't disagree with the broad idea, but I am more interested in the practical mechanics of how this "low empathy" trend is sustained politically, or whatever-ically.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:51 PM
3

There is not a finite amount. Within a short- to moderate-timeframe the amount remains quite finite.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:43 PM
3

My point is that the more love there is the easiest is to give. This is very poetic, but impossible to translate in practical terms, like how we can get funding for men's studies that isn't hopelessly anti-scientific due to being tainted by feminist politics, or shelter beds / legal recognition for male victims of violence.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:39 PM
3

How about I don't consider any possibilities without evidence for them instead, particularly when said possibilities would lead me to dismiss points that I have a lot of evidence for?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:37 PM
2

No, I did not say it oustrips. Then I don't see any way in which your argument counters my point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:35 PM
2

Which, I believe, brings us back to the point I was making before your counter-argument.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:30 PM
3

So, in my view, the fact that nonmaterial things are easier to multiply is obvious to me. Take ideas, for example. The generalization is too broad to be meaningful. I agree that you are probably not lying, but your premise seems factually false through-and-through: I just don't see any data supporting the idea that the growth in compassion and empathy outstrips the growth in material abundance.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:26 PM
1

You are welcome to dislike it all you want, but they are probably still doing more for the men's liberation than the 'slib.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:23 PM
2

I gave you a citation. Sorry I copy pasted later. Larger replication needed This study is interesting, and I like the source, but it is too insignificant sample-wise for me to take seriously on an important issue. From what I personally know of empathy, it is more likely related to other factors, like personality traits (like sensitivity) rather than male vs female divide by gender. EDIT: Even if you do take this study seriously, the gap between the empathy received and empathy given by women is…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:19 PM
5

Yes, non-material things are easier to enlarge. This is not an argument. It seems to be completely opposite to me. You have the causality backwards. I don't care to get derailed into this argument. You are being evasive towards the fact that the pie for compassion for men does not grow significantly, when according to your theory it should have been growing steadily for a long time now. Then we have to fight the mentality where you only get empathy if you are a victim. Which would means what exa…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:10 PM
5

Nono. Women are more compassionare in general BECAUSE they receive more empathy. I never said it was biological. They just receive more love so they have more love to give. Citation still needed. From the outside it looks just like a rationalization of the "woman are good" emotional state, that isn't very critical in nature. But I thought you were big pro-capitalist liberalism. I see my political framework as broadly liberal. I wouldn't use these exact words. Isn't one of the huge tenets that th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 11:04 PM
6

Women just have more compassion in general, it is just that most of the extra compassion they have they redirect it to women. Citation needed. This is also odd, because you are being specifically non-blank slate, when it is beneficial to feminism. ...which doesn't decrease compassion towards women because it is not a zero sum game!!! This is wrong, in several ways that should be visible if you look. Actionable, tangible, applied compassion is a zero sum game, both on aggregate macro- and on indi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 10:40 PM
1

This is a very good and insightful comment, thank you.
/r/MensRights27/06/20 10:16 PM
0

This is a very good post, u/problem_redditor, thank you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/06/20 08:45 PM
3

People often try to re-cast the part of their in-group which they just saw doing a Bad Thing as something that really is a Sinister External Influence. I have been recently informed by a self-identified feminist that Michael Kimmel isn't a real feminist, despite being one of the most widely cited feminist sociologists, and that flaws in his thinking don't apply to the wider feminist movement whatsoever, because he's accused of harassing a woman, and No True Feminist would ever do that. EDIT: A f…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/06/20 01:41 PM
3

I'm not here to argue with you, in any kind of faith. I'm just pointing out that the left is mostly doing this to itself, – it's probably not some foreign spies... ;)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/06/20 12:55 PM
2

Identity politics have been designed from the beginning to frustrate left-wing efforts. What a devious plot! If only the leftists who were carrying it out knew about it. ;)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/06/20 08:32 AM
2

The truth is that their stance, now matter how it might be lacking in nuance, or sophistication of its articulation, is probably still infinitely closer to the truth that that of the 'slib. I guess you must also dislike that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/06/20 09:03 PM
2

Stand by whatever the hell you want. My point was that you are overlooking the exceedingly common abuse of these "concepts".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/06/20 08:56 PM
2

The problem here, if that one's thinking is sufficiently murderist, any kind of polite disagreement can be explained away by inventing "hatred" and explaining the other party's motivations with it, which I have personally encountered, time and time again. This weaponized polarization, triggering an outpouring of aggrieved self-righteousness seems to be a textbook feminist modus operandi in public debate.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/06/20 08:48 PM
1

I'm afraid what you just said is non-sequitur. What is "accompanied by love?" You lost me. My point was that if you examine the definition from practical usage of the term "misoginist", it is really close to being "a feminist is trying to attack you". Your other, more academic meaning, if it really exists, is a minority one.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/06/20 08:25 PM
3

I think you inadvertently used a tautology. A lot of the time, "misogyny" is a synonym for "disagrees with a feminist".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/06/20 06:22 AM
7

Contrast this with an outlook of a statistically normal person who would rather spare a guilty man, rather than convict an innocent one.
/r/MensRights18/06/20 04:13 PM
13

Alas, I'm afraid the BLM leaders won't rally to fix this problem – the take isn't very Marxist.
/r/MensRights18/06/20 04:08 PM
1

And if this difference in "outliers who move history" is acknowledged, the dogma that men and women are the same, except for some insignificant anatomical differences, which supplies the fire of activism with the fuel of moral indignation, will inevitably die, at least in part. And we can't have that.
/r/MensRights18/06/20 03:29 PM
2

u/BrolyParagus, the key take-away here is that /u/thatspositive's blank slate thinking (it's a good book by Steven Pinker, look it up) doesn't acknowledge the variability hypothesis, or the interest in things vs interest in people gap (see some of the Roy F. Baumeister's research, it's good), both of which have a lot of scientific evidence for them. While the current feminist dogma correctly includes the truth that men and women are, on average, equal in their abilities, it completely ignores th…
/r/MensRights18/06/20 02:55 PM
2

How is this relevant? Just because an excessively oversimplified version of the wage gap is false does not necessarily mean that the more complicated in-depth version is as well. The past behavior is the best predictor of the future behavior in general, and in this case, it is a very reliable predictor of the future quality of the pro-feminist social science "research". We debunked the theory that there was only 4 elements, then we invented the more "abstract" periodic table. One of these is not…
/r/MensRights18/06/20 02:49 PM
2

When this is studied it's revealed that women are less likely to be hired or receive a promotion compared to an equally qualified male. See my comment above. You are either forgetting, or deliberately leaving out how this new, more sophisticated interpretation of the wage gap was invented after the old one was debunked. When debunked, this mythology keeps reinventing itself, again, again, and again, in new reincarnations that are more vague, abstract, and harder to debunk. Mark my words: in five…
/r/MensRights18/06/20 01:09 PM
1

Are you familiar with the expression, common in atheistic thought, "God of the gaps"? If not, I urge you to please pause now and look it up, before continuing further, you can do so here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps The wage gap mythology is mechanically identical: the more data we have that disproves it out of existence, the further inequality implied by its myth retreats, its definitions becoming ever and ever more abstract, vague, and harder to falsify. But yet it remains, i…
/r/MensRights18/06/20 12:58 PM
3

I get what you are saying, but this could have been argued better, in a way that's less open to being misconstrued. Maybe look up the language Cassie Jaye used in Red Pill when talking about contraception and parenting choices.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/06/20 04:14 PM
1

None of this is hardly news, u/Xemnas81. Look up what blank slate thinking is, and maybe read a book by Steven Pinker. Camille Paglia also diligently explained this many times – biology does not really exist in the worldview for modern feminism, as women's studies departments were formed in a hurry from people whose entire training was in English language and literature. So what you and I might explain by predominantly hormones, or sex-related biological differences, they explain almost entirely…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/06/20 04:11 PM
6

The practical problem here seems, instead of addressing these concerns, the forms of gender theory that are taken seriously today have come up with snide ways of dismissing them, ala "we'll win the war with the patriarchy, and then you'll be better, so just wait / support us", or, "this is just your toxic masculinity", etc. Alternatively, instead of doing something about these issues, they are co-opted, or "absorbed", while in reality, nothing is done about this. This is going to make this discu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/06/20 03:58 PM
10

That's a good, and refreshingly positive argument. Thanks, u/mhandanna.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/05/20 12:54 AM
12

While we are on the topic of pointlessly loaded questions, have you stopped beating your wife yet, u/SleepyMonkey7?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/05/20 12:53 AM
2

Onlyfans = digital strip clubs is a view I didn't consider before. Interesting.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/05/20 06:26 AM
1

He's an interesting guy. I don't think you necessarily have to agree with view, and I'm honestly not sure if I do, but it's a good one to consider. P.S. Please put the quote in quote marks please, or someone will misread it and shortly be accusing us of being "just a bunch of libertarians".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/05/20 06:24 AM
3

This isn't a "rise", – these toxic and insane parts of feminism never went anywhere.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/05/20 07:21 PM
10

Still more meaningful conversation that the 'slib.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/05/20 07:20 PM
1

Burnout happens, and people leave. So I think this is a normal process that will maybe happen a few times before the community grows large enough to sustain itself without problems. I am sorry that I can't spare time to be a mod myself right now, but we are keeping our fingers crossed for you, u/Forgetaboutthelonely.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/05/20 07:14 PM
0

Stockholm Syndrome. Next.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/05/20 12:17 AM
13

This was a good video.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/05/20 05:00 AM
4

So, I understand why you see this "you wouldn't think of a blank man this way" argument as less rhetorically persuasive than others. But why is it a fallacy?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/05/20 04:05 AM
2

No. I don't think it would be good for either you, or me. If you want to know, – watch it for yourself.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/05/20 08:07 PM
2

Munk Debates is series of pretty well-known, generally decent moderated public discussions. I recommend checking it out.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/05/20 06:23 PM
1

..the computer does the rest. Yes, and once the task it as this stage, it ceases to be both "abstract", and "thinking". Overall, I am not sure what kind of experiences might lead one to think that way. Why do you think this?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/05/20 05:21 PM
1

Crunching numbers inside a pre-made formula is a job for Microsoft Excel, not an example of abstract thinking. EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyBNR8ThrNQ
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/05/20 03:27 PM
3

Another part of this problem is that data numbers on these merit-free entitlements is academically suppressed, and completely ignored by gender feminists, who, like in the famous Munk Debate on Gender in 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VefECwF7AHk), claim that "men are obsolete", and that "men's domination is over", and that women are just better students, or more suited to the modern job market. As if.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/05/20 03:19 PM
3

Yep. The CA even used the famous "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" to try and pretend that the lines between censorship and civility are muddy and unknowable. I think it might be best to accept that "the 'slib is gonna 'slib" and move on.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/05/20 03:54 PM
2

You replied to me eight times in the past day about your issues with MensLib. What a scathing indictment. It took me about five minutes in total? Is this the extent of your men's issues advocacy? Is trolling us, banning intelligent dissenters over at the 'slib and legitimizing institutional misandry the extent of yours? Also, no. EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/05/20 03:53 PM
1

Thank you for reposting it, this is such a good SSC. EDIT: META: Aren't there going to be pinning of author's comments, like this one (by moderators)?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/05/20 11:18 PM
9

Yep. It's funny to we aren't far left enough for the left-leaning subreddits. I remember talking to a huffing and puffing Marxist-Leninist about it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/05/20 11:12 PM
7

I love that we've gotten big enough to reliably generate conversations like this one. EDIT: And thank you for playing your part.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/05/20 11:05 PM
2

We should have kept you banned. You literally never added anything to the discussion here.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/05/20 03:15 PM
1

"When you are used to preferential treatment, fair treatment will feel like discrimination."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/05/20 12:54 AM
2

I agree that stories from a female perspective or gender/sexual minority perspective always shoot to the top. You are right on the money here! I remember seeing a highly upvoted post on ML about a man who was happy about coming out as sexually submissive, and I asked myself: "Would these people accept him, if he was into kink, but into being sexually dominant?" I want to interpret this charitably, but it's hard to read this as anything but a really petty and toxic (homophobic and gender normativ…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 11:33 PM
3

No, you were trying to humiliate me, and this community, by painting us as failures lacking in mainstream respectability. That didn't elude me. "I'm more powerful than you" is an odd attitude for a person who aligns the philosophy claiming to want to "dismantle hierarchies of power", but I suppose that consistency just isn't your forte.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 11:25 PM
5

Ha. Here you go again, – trying to pathologize my behavior, when you are being criticized, while simultaneously hilariously crying yourself up as a victim who was attacked. If you have a problem receiving notification from me, I believe there's a feature on Reddit that can help with that, I believe the name starts with a "b". But if I participate in the same threads as you, I want people who read these threads to see my responses to your lies.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 11:11 PM
3

This statement comes across as a little off, but please understand that it likely comes out of bitter and often mocked frustration over r/MenSlib's unwillingness to discuss, or talk about problems of men who aren't gay, trans, or minority. It seems motivated by fear that their profeminist credentials would be stained by compassion towards, or humanization of men who are white and cis. There's a running story here (told in his own words) about how their head mod tied himself into wordy, elaborate…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 11:02 PM
4

Yeah, you see – no issues with ad hom attacks at all, when you are the one doing it. But people talking to you "must address the nature of your argument", which you, in a peculiar fashion, seem rarely interested in doing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:58 PM
5

It's really telling that the r/MensLib crowd in general seems to (honestly?) see enforcing ideological conformity and enforcing civility as one and the same.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:56 PM
2

Odd or not odd, I would have to see you being similarly critical of r/MensLib or of feminism, to believe what in your claims of equanimity... I would want to believe that, but I will not tell my brain that my own eyes are deceiving me, just because believing it would feel nice.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:54 PM
3

It does not pay to try engage in good faith with those who have shown that they are most likely going to engage in bad faith anyways. That's a swindle.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:52 PM
2

I mean, to be fair, I have to admit that some people attacking him here have a grudge, but he loves to make himself a temptingly hypocritical, anti-male target.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:50 PM
7

I dare you to show me one instance where the "case-by-case basis" turned out to rule in stark disagreement with the modern mainstream feminist party line. Come on, I double dare you, – just one disagreement. EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:48 PM
6

Are you familiar with Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance? Our toleration of his presence here isn't it, but it does smell funny.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:47 PM
4

We don't have to convince you of your willful blindness. We just have to show your lies to others. Thank you for making it so easy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:46 PM
1

Yay to that! :P EDIT: And yes, I agree that MRM so far suffered for lacking academic firepower.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:46 PM
8

Even now, u/Forgetaboutthelonely, this man can't bring yourself to say "yes". This speaks volumes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:45 PM
4

You flat-out lie, and we both know it. ...we're not the ones being overrun by low-effort ragebait. EDIT: No, you are the ones who have choked out all life and fire out of your community.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:44 PM
5

Nope. The difference is that the 'slib doesn't allow civil, patient and high-effort comments when they poke holes in your shiny collaborationist bootlicking towards the power in the form of culturally hegemonic feminism, because preserving the illusion that you can advocate for men while being a profeminist must be preserved at all costs. Remember how you comrades removed each and every one of patient, well-argued comments that tore to pieces your "false rape accusations are OK" thread, which is…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:43 PM
3

What some call censorship others call cultivating a healthy community. Ah, the fabled moral relativism. Reasonable minds may disagree on exactly how to strike that balance, ... There isn't a balance, because this is a false dichotomy. Either you enforce ideological purity through censorship, or you don't.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:39 PM
6

I cannot for a minute believe that you honestly can't see a difference between ideological purity vs civility, so I call bullshit on this entire argument. We don't ban you, the pro-feminist, pro-censorship man from this community, and this is the only pro-male community on Reddit where we could have had this conversation, as even on r/FeMRADebates you'd have been permanently banned already for your dehumanizing, denigrating scorn of the opposition.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:37 PM
3

That's a curious stance – I don't recall you having any problems with ad hominem attacks, or psychologizing your opponents r/MensGlib-style when you were doing it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:34 PM
2

This is curious, and you are vaguely right. I have been speaking with this guy for a few months, and u/spudmix claims to be on "our side", and says he cares about men's emancipation, but his practical activities here seem to consist mostly of pointing out the flaws and problems of, and generally, tearing / bringing down pro-male egalitarians here, and "explaining" how this community is full of it. I am not sure what's up with that. There can be multiple explanations: some "engineer" personalitie…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/05/20 10:28 PM
2

Okay.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 11:35 PM
2

You criticism seems highly variable, and a dependant on what political group does it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 11:32 PM
3

"Feminism is just another word for equality!" "Wait, not that kind of equality..."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 11:28 PM
1

"You?"
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 11:25 PM
1

Look into gender divisions in labor in very egalitarian places, like Scandinavia. Many of the differences feminists wish to think away, don't go away. But as societies become less survival- and more self-expression-focused (which is a good thing overall), we may see more devaluing of stoic qualities. P.S. Maybe also take a look at this: https://quillette.com/2019/09/17/i-basically-just-made-it-up-confessions-of-a-social-constructionist/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 11:12 PM
1

Abstract thinking ability is the hardest thing to automate there is.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 11:00 PM
4

I remember that Camille Paglia has a few nice passages about this, u/Lasers_Pew_Pew_Pew. She said that past 1st wave feminism has made a habit out of taking civilization built by men for granted, and grew itself a colossal neurosis-powered victimhood mentality out of political convenience. And that had unfortunate consequences. I think she's right about this... Oh, wait, the comment you are replying to already includes Paglia. :P Good on you two.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:58 PM
6

It's not healthy to see the world as being organised into groups like "women" and "us", or to see the actions of one of seven billion individuals as having much relation to your expectations of that group. Oh my God, you must be really critical of feminism / profeminism, seeing how group-based their thinking is.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:58 PM
1

White collar, or college-educated population maybe. I'd say it has a lot of stigma otherwise.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:56 PM
8

I was told there were too many people hurt with legitimate greivences unable to speak. I was told under explicit terms that this was MensLibs mortal sin outside of being pro-feminist. Yay, a 'slibber preaching for more censorship and excluding people! I'm glad that some things never change. I have to particularly applaud the bit about "I'm not even subscribed here", it was delightful.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:24 PM
4

Pot, kettle.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:21 PM
3

#EverydayMisandry sounds like a good hashtag, and a worthwhile addition to the conversation. But yeah, it's hard to follow or read r/MensRights precisely because of how full of this stuff it is, – good conversations get drowned out.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:17 PM
3

I've flipped through it before, but didn't have to finish it. It seemed really good.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/05/20 10:11 PM
8

He probably has. You know the famous saying about how philosophers rationalize their own mental pathologies in their work? I think that's the case here. And unfortunately, looking at him gesticulate while giving speeches, it seems that religious fundamentalists can feel quite happy and fulfilled, if they did a good job of carefully integrating their bigotry into their society's current political climate.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 02:18 AM
11

Let me quote: This is another book written by feminist men’s studies writer, Michael Kimmel. In Guyland, Kimmel sets out to explain the sociological and cultural factors that have contributed to young men extending adolescence well into their twenties. Well, at least that’s what I thought the book would be about when I first picked it up. Instead Kimmel grinds his “women are good / men are bad” axe by painting a picture of young, white men as angry, lazy, misogynistic, sex predators. At the end …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 01:40 AM
7

How do you know there's not more of them? I think this sort of thing quietly happens every day. I just doubt it makes for good man bites dog sort of news, so it goes unnoticed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 01:39 AM
8

This is a really good article, thank you, u/Strikester101! The fact that uplifting and gentle stories like this one get so little coverage, while misandric opuses ala Guyland are constantly in the limelight, is the reasons why cultural demonization of men and masculinity is a major issue today, even if it appears more benign on the surface than suicide, instrumentalization, or failure to launch. EDIT: While the boys of ‘Ata have been consigned to obscurity, Golding’s book is still widely read. M…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 01:21 AM
15

Just don't use "men's rights" name, because it has bad press. Do you think they are similarly going to give up the brand name "feminism", because there is stigma associated with it?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 01:11 AM
3

One is an obese TERF stereotype who unironically is trying to 'start a conversation' about having men excluded from feminism. When asked what she thought the end goal of feminism was she said 'perhaps abolition of the male sex, or an inversion of the hierarchy to place females in a dominant role.' Thank you so much, this gave me a good laugh. :P Don't worry about these people, u/Xemnas81. Like, at all. This task you set before yourself would be like trying to convince a religious fundamentalist …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 01:10 AM
8

Men are welcome in feminism so long as they frame their own issues as side-effects of women's oppression and buy into the self-serving feminist idea of "patriarchy"... Yep. Well put.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 01:03 AM
1

A'ight, you know what, – there are so many people available to me, who actually listen, and talking with whom may actually achieve / change something.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/05/20 12:53 AM
5

I've used that and it does rankle feminists. That's a pretty low bar, because viewing your life's hardships and obstacles in a way that doesn't explicitly invoke feminist theory already rankles many of them. But yeah, for extra rankling you can add some details, such as, "...who deserve empathy, support networks and society-wide recognition of being disadvantaged in several important areas."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/20 02:52 PM
2

These all sound like good and sound ideas to me. Are you following the work of Foundation of Individual Rights in Education, or FIRE?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/20 02:35 PM
14

I agree that there are ways for sex work to be unethical and exploitative, and we are way, way less likely to talk about it if the victim is a man.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/20 11:52 AM
8

It's pretty fucked up that we are even discussing this. And as much as I dislike how these slogans frame the conversation, this make it look like there's something true to the copycat slogan that "men's rights is a revolutionary and controversial idea that men are human beings."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/20 11:02 AM
1

The question is, do you train your mods to explicitly market it as a part of "new dialogue on real issues", and teach them that it's not "counter-productive tribalism", but instead "healthy and effective" when the good guys do it? The irony here is that while we both agree with this statement, I'm the one who understands that your team's tendency to dehumanize and silence people with wrong political labels is actually a problem, and it's one of the things you "won't take seriously" from a "peopl…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/20 10:39 AM
1

Have female students been deprived of due process? Dunno. Why are you asking me?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/05/20 10:33 AM
14

Half of the reason this community exists. And not only the right, or social conservatives, but also either far-right, or alt-right, or "male supremacists", whatever that means. EDIT: Typo. A few words.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 03:58 PM
3

This comic needs an alternative version where the woman is shouting at the man for being abusive / controlling / hegemonic in the end. EDIT: Two words.
/r/AntiFeminists08/05/20 01:35 PM
2

Oh no, I wasn't referring to your attitudes. It's the perceived false dichotomy between the blank slate and gender essentialism views, and how you will often be derided as "unacceptably g.e.", in certain communities, if don't discuss gender in terms that are 100% blank slate.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 11:46 AM
1

The word you are looking for is blank slate. Look up Steven Pinker.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 05:16 AM
1

To me, there can be a version of this argument that is still pretty close to the truth and fits the sentiments of any position on the left-right divide. Use whichever one suits your tastes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 05:15 AM
1

I get what you are saying. And I agree. It seems to me, the core reason here is, the ML types adore using dehumanizing, murderist thinking to explain away what sort of "deranged, hateful, angry and hurt" people are among those who criticize them, so they wouldn't bear the psychological stress of processing the criticisms against them. Basically, it's a casual character assassination of the way that happens on the shadier corners of internet every day, but here, it's on it's on the respectable Ma…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 05:05 AM
1

No pressure.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 05:00 AM
1

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have to care about the distinction, because your mod team seems to be selected on a criteria that "accidentally includes" the sort of people who habitually do both, and then pass off one as the other. EDIT: Typo. Rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/05/20 04:59 AM
2

Unless you have done something improbably monstrous, like repeatedly telling the kid that her being gay or trans is wrong, and makes her a bad person, or extolled the virtues of throwing communists off helicopters to her, there's no justification for her mother's behavior. Her anxiety is probably from having this person for a mom... As others said, lawyer, and probably also a therapist for you, so that you know how to safely navigate talking to your kid without making her feel even more torn up …
/r/MensRights07/05/20 09:52 AM
7

Don't ask here. Find experienced family-related lawyers in your area.
/r/MensRights07/05/20 07:21 AM
2

Can you please cite the year and the name of charity?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/20 06:15 AM
1

I think I've made it clear that I tend not to engage with you when you're being blatantly and offensively dishonest. You also tend not to engage when people are asking you polite, on-point questions that make you uncomfortable and may cause to accidentally self-reflect, so that's not saying much.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/20 06:01 AM
1

Not really. I have a tendency towards perfectionism in some areas myself, and let me tell you, this sort of stuff can be a calling. You can catch yourself doing it anytime you don't pay a bit of attention to stop yourself from doing it... It's just that you have to really let yourself go to allow your propensity towards nitpicking details to completely overtake your desire to have a normal, civil grown-up conversation. Unfortunately, said MensLib types tend to self-righteously think of us the lu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/20 05:57 AM
4

My problem is that many of these low-effort posts are both really angry, and contain little besides anger, and hurt, and outrage. The first is really okay, and has a valid place in men's issues conversation, and the second is bad, and not okay.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/05/20 04:16 AM
5

"Great things have been achieved through feminism. We now have pretty much equality at least on the pay and opportunities front, though almost nothing has been done on child care, the real liberation. "We have many wonderful, clever, powerful women everywhere, but what is happening to men? Why did this have to be at the cost of men? "I was in a class of nine- and 10-year-olds, girls and boys, and this young woman was telling these kids that the reason for wars was the innately violent nature of …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/05/20 06:53 AM
4

Source, please.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/05/20 06:44 AM
4

Her response to that was to first ask if the boys were white. I was like, "Uh... this affects all boys, including minority boys." She then said, "But CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are overwhelmingly male." I was like... WTF? So I say, "what does what's going on among 50 to 70 year olds in the top 1 tenth of 1% of the population have to do with how boys are doing in elementary school?" She says, "well, men are still dominant." I said, "those male CEOs were boys in elementary school 40 to 60 years…
/r/AntiFeminists06/05/20 06:31 AM
0

Sure, but we need a better-argued case than that to reach and convince the neutral people. Because the feminists tend not to argue in good faith, usually don't want to see your point, and instead, from the comfortable and secure position of privilege in academia and preferential treatment in media will be like, "You are under-educated, this is a myth, we are widely misunderstood, and it isn't what any of it means." So to make sure this response isn't an effective way to shut you down, you need t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/05/20 06:25 AM
1

I would need to double-check how long ago that was, and if she's still widely cited today.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/20 08:32 PM
2

Yep.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/20 07:31 PM
6

albeit yes clearly she is fringe and fucked... most feminists obviously aren't like that at all and try to distance themselves from her I feel like the issue to focus here is how these lunatics are oddly welcomed and/or tolerated by the mainstream. My point however, still stands, she was accepted by mainstream pepople and organisations and that is the problem. Yes. Yup its a problem that needs highlighting Yes. When a website like Jezbel is allowed, but AVF got banned by reddit when it posted th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/20 04:38 PM
1

Uhmm, look, I'm not saying this isn't bad, but we should probably focus our criticisms on the problems of mainstream feminism, rather than on the low-hanging fruit of the lunatic fringe.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/20 03:51 PM
1

It's not an explicit tactic, it's more of a perception bias of the left, which runs amok due to lack of viewpoint diversity (check these guys out https://heterodoxacademy.org – they are good). I talked to this guy some more, and it seems he literally, honestly couldn't grasp why I wasn't OK with patiently explaining, and explaining my views to him, when he was responding with curt messages that were insults and devaluing aimed at me personally, like 30% by volume.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/05/20 09:06 AM
1

Wait, 'slibbers actually have an interest in men?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 11:22 PM
1

"Tribe" is not really a pejorative, "SocJus" is a very mild way of expressing disagreement, and you accusing me of being an anti-feminist, while I'm less anti-feminism than most people here is peak ML cringe. please learn some self awareness Says the guy who's crying about not having a philosophical deep conversation with a partner they insist to keep insulting, and highlighting how they know nothing about anything in every comment you make. You know, behavior like this is a big part of the reas…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 11:21 PM
1

Okay, I can conclude that you have no idea what you're talking about. See, this is why I know the decision not to feed you any more was a good one. Here's a TIL moment for you -- a person who is genuinely interested in talking to you, and understanding what you usually doesn't pour self-righteously denigrating shit on you. To anyone even remotely familiar with feminism and social justice, the things you're writing are barely even coherent thoughts. Ah, the enlightened pleasure of being one of th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 11:10 PM
1

What I want to do is walk you through some really surface level History of Feminism stuff so you can understand the context here. Things like Liberal Feminism, etc. That's really rich, coming from a MensLibber -- assuming that other parts of the men's movement know nothing about history of feminism merely because we disagree with your stance of subordinating men's movement's interests to those of feminist movement. I really, really need to know what in the world you're talking about when you're …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 10:47 PM
1

I can see your logic, but it seems wrong to me. Usually divorce happens because of one spouse' failing. Usually not both, usually not them both... From what I personally know of failed, troubled or strained marriages, they usually involve a lot of mistakes, or personal failings for both spouses. You can look up what Warren Farrell (or Karen deCrow, both then-heads of NOW) had so say about the feminist opposition to shared custody. It wasn't based on your argument. They literally went ahead and s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 10:39 PM
1

Based on prior interactions with you, it seems more likely that like CA, you are just here to troll and waste other's time, based on ML's scathing disregard for us. There will always be an reason why you can't answer, and I need to waste more energy to get you to do try. Tip for the future, -- if someone in your shoes really wanted to talk, they could have given one preliminary version of the answer to demonstrate good faith, checked for errors in understanding, and then offered to refine based …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 10:37 PM
1

Also, this is one of my biggest objections to how feminism happens in practice, -- the way their foundational theories, and their basic concepts are defined have no solid basis, and can be adjusted on the fly to fit the needs of the moment. Like one big political shrine to motte and bailey bad faith trick.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 10:30 PM
1

Honestly man, the time to talk to try to talk to me in good faith was a long time ago, before the heaps of snideful, passive-aggressive condescension. I wasted enough of my energy explaining already, and don't want this to be a case of sunk costs bias. If you will answer, do, if no, then don't. Thanks.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 10:28 PM
2

However, i did not see the relation with this video. There isn't much relation to the video, but the quote in the title is a helpful contrast to the "aAAAAAaaAAaaaa, we are all doomed, things are so bad and the enemy has so much power!" counter-productive attitude that is, unfortunately, still prevalent in some parts of men's communities. EDIT: As much as I loathe MensLib and its assorted pathologies, I have to admit that they have less of this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 10:12 PM
1

In your previous comment you say that it's a good question. This makes me think you understand very well, but are hesitant to quit bullshit and answer clearly.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 07:48 PM
1

To be honest, there's a good chance he's so used to this way of thinking, he literally can't understand why applying Moral Philosophy A to one group of people you like, and different Moral Philosophy B to the group of people you dislike is totes-magotes okay, and can't whatsoever lead to any unpleasant side effects.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 07:47 PM
1

I don't feel like explaining myself is worth it. Answer the question or don't, thanks.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 06:10 AM
1

Alright.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 06:10 AM
1

You were literally defending a guy who likely exploited woke white knighting for a little extra social status, to avenge a "victim" who likely didn't even feel victimized. It's not hard to see between the lines to find the implications.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 01:08 AM
1

Why does your argumentation ignore how the faith of intersectionality is itself becoming a system of power and privilege?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 12:56 AM
1

I was anything besides extremely clear. You were everything besides making any sense. You are welcome.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 12:47 AM
1

I could focus on how you are oddly comfortable with defending this guy being removed from access to recreation for an offense that is literally imaginary and is likely also victimless, by deferring to "respectability of social norms", but I made my point plenty of times, from different angles. If you were going to try and get it, you would have already. I won't be baited by a variant of "answer or don't, thanks".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 12:22 AM
2

Everyone on earth agrees that kicking someone out of a voluntary social group for their behavior is perfectly fine No one on Earth agrees on any one single thing. Much less this woke drivel, which you try to pass as uncontroversial, and fail. You also keep missing the point of how using identity politics as the sole basis of morality is inane so hard, I think you are now doing it on purpose to upset me, after I've invested energy into trying to explain myself to you. So I'm done here. EDIT: Typo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/05/20 12:07 AM
1

Can you explain what you're talking about here? I just did. Maybe you missed an edit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 11:54 PM
1

Look bro. I am not your bro. My bros are people more interested in discussing ideas, more civil, and less interested in ad hom attacks than you are. You keep talking about "tribe" and "socjus religion" and I'm not really interested in disabusing you of your own delusions. You are welcome to take offense to these harmless, polite words, but that is doubly hypocritical given your own passive-aggressive condescending snideness. Okay, I did it. So you're wrong. Proudly says the man who have went out…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 11:04 PM
1

Yeah, probably. Why'd you still use that, though?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 09:18 PM
2

Reddit introduced a feature called profiles recently, where you can add a short bio for yourself.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 06:28 PM
4

I didn't intend the question to come off as passive-aggressive. I apologize, if it did. I was curious about the story, if it can be shared.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 02:55 PM
1

So, uhmm, I see you say in your profile that you used to be a feminist, u/mellainadiba. What's the story there?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 12:46 PM
8

Now, I don't want to drag ContraPoints into this (pun intended, he-he), but I've been seeing a lot of doom and gloom in the comments lately, and wanted to remind y'all that things are changing for the better, and the men's movement is gaining in popularity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 09:34 AM
2

I think they want to maintain a cover of mainstream respectability, so that the moderates and the undecideds will increase their total number of subscribers -- like the way the keep insisting on how you don't have to be a feminist to participate, while it's obviously not true.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 09:19 AM
1

The people who enforce those rules enforced them. I dare you to do a take where you say these words about any situation involving a member of one of the specially protected groups being excluded. My understanding is that neither you, nor an average member of the SocJus religion (not to be confused with the valid, liberal and unrelated idea of social justice), will do that, and the hypocrisy of it is spectacular. I have no response to this. I have no response to this. And do you have any self-awa…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 08:19 AM
1

...and the rest of it, I have no response. I've updated my comment. It should now include the response to your question.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 08:01 AM
2

What you are responding to is not my argument. This man was shown to be neither racist, sexist, nor homophobic with any credibility. I was directing your attention to the utter hypocrisy of your tribe's tendency to interpret terms of social contract "this isn't a right! this white man just didn't earn this privilege! it's a liberal society! learn to live with the consequences of your actions!", or "this is a person who's being unfairly denied access to opportunities... wait... there is an o-word…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 07:31 AM
1

They lean to the right. I don't think they ever were as right-wing as their critics claim.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 04:33 AM
1

Are you under the delusion that what you write doesn't happen daily? So what, this makes it ethically okay for you to do more of the same now?! And are you really willfully blind to how you are using the logic to excuse this man being excluded from access to a social circle that caters to his hobby, but would never be okay with this argument applied to a member of literally any other social group I listed? Pretending those two things are the same would make that person look and sound like they'r…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 04:22 AM
1

In my experience, your movement's idea of what MRM believe is a lot more strawmanned than the other way around.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 04:12 AM
1

Catholic priests read lots of arguments against the existence of God. I don't think these folks read many criticisms of their beliefs. Take a look at this, by the way: https://areomagazine.com/2018/12/18/postmodern-religion-and-the-faith-of-social-justice/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 04:10 AM
2

Notice how u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK tried to shift the conversation from "this social norm is arbitrary, discriminatory and unjust - and I think we would be better of with it not being a thing" to "social norms have always existed, and always will - it's on you to cope". I see he is very comfortable using this logic to excuse the vies of the far-left, and I wonder how he would feel about the same logic being applied to normalize the conservative social norms, including gender roles. EDIT: Five word…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 04:08 AM
1

He can go find another group, because this is a free country, and the rest of them can be done with him. Being part of that group is a privilege, not a right, and he forfeited it. I do wonder how often your undoubtedly equanimous use of this brilliant argument applies to women, feminists, or minorities being denied membership in anything.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 04:03 AM
1

Well, the thread you linked does strongly hint at where their priorities are (as if we needed more proof). Now, I want to propose something different. Let's play a devil's advocate for a minute, and see what positive end might ML accidentally accomplish, even if they 100% persistent in these self-sabotaging and often anti-men tactics. Obviously, they won't be able to do any actual men's issues advocacy. But could they accidentally smuggle a bit of MRM into the Overton's Window?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 03:59 AM
1

Yep. EDIT: And we need more of this type of content.
/r/MensRights03/05/20 02:58 AM
1

Still, it's publicity.
/r/MensRights03/05/20 02:58 AM
1

This is good, though. At least some people who see this hypocrisy will ask themselves what's going on.
/r/MensRights03/05/20 02:55 AM
1

This is true. When you try to silence ideas, it gives them more power, not less.
/r/MensRights03/05/20 02:52 AM
2

Also, you know the answer to this question already.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 02:33 AM
2

You are probably right u/Oncefa2, but your reasoning assumes that people with more institutional power and resources that you are interested in finding common ground with you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 01:58 AM
1

Uhmm, surely you must acknowledge that life was more difficult in some ways back then?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/05/20 01:38 AM
1

I honestly question the previous generation thing they had downsides like you are talking about but they also had a lot of upsides because for example the economics were completely different. The adversity they faced was different, but there definitely wasn't less of it. The modern thinking on how "the Boomers", or the generations before them had it better is absurd to me – I knew some of those people as relatives, and they all seemed so jaded and accepting of their hardships, that I think it is…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 12:46 PM
2

Mainly because they were atleast left leaning or wanted to move away from Right Wing ‘MRAs’ to focus on abolishing gender roles, there are progressives over there but I guess can I ask a bit? We were on speaking terms with them a while ago, but were "cast out" as not angry and radical enough. :) Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean. You are welcome, if you want to stick around.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 08:00 AM
2

Hold on. The psychological stresses of our era are maybe greater than before, and the constant denigration and scorn some of us put up with can be extremely unpleasant, but this doesn't mean that the previous generations didn't put up with a lot of adversity. My friend has a grandfather who had to walk to school without shoes, for example. Flourishing and enjoyment of life is still possible, particularly if you sort of those of the men's issues that pain you personally the most first. At-least-s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:57 AM
2

So are you OK with the "women are the true victims of COVID, despite more men dying" narrative, or not?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:48 AM
1

Wait, so you agree that the OP should have asked the victim before rushing in to defend her? If so, then how do you feel about your mod team removing comments saying as much from the thread? Because it means that your comment here would have been removed, too, if it was posted on ML. EDIT: You downvoting this comment u/InitiatePenguin, and then not sullying you pristine ideal of men's advocacy by not replying to me is another Top ML moment, but for mod behavior.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:43 AM
1

What is their to live for them for us? Did you mean to say, "what is there to live for"? :(
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:42 AM
1

Heh.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:41 AM
2

Discussing why the men's movement haven't been very successful to date seems like a valid concern to me. And folks like you seem to be a big part of the "why".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:39 AM
13

To be frank, we could use a little more positivity as a movement. I liked some of BlueOrange22's other videos, and this one is good, and the hypocrisy he draws attention to here is valid, but why am I only now learning about this center opening, why didn't we post about it as soon as it happened, where were the joyous celebrations?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:31 AM
2

Please don't cross-post PMC stuff, their group is crazy. Also, holy fuck, their subreddit now has 1.5k subscribers? How many of them are sockputtet accounts of that one guy? :P
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:27 AM
3

She added: “Teachers, police officers, and social workers will be given training with a non-gendered definition. It will, therefore, be more difficult for them to spot signs of domestic abuse. If you preach that it happens to men and women equally, you will not be able to understand the gender stereotyping and sexism element. This is really good, they sound panicked, like the truth is starting to make it to the surface, and the "gendered" narrative that gives them more funding is finally falling…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 07:03 AM
2

Yes, but also remember to maintain the positive outlook on life. Social movements that have many of its adherents willing to die for their beliefs, but unwilling to live for them have a really bad track record for affecting long-lasting social change.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 06:52 AM
2

you always tapdance around the fact that this guy was upset with feminism. You speak out as if there is no reason for somebody to be upset with an ideology that has had some of it's most prominent members and associations state that men cannot be raped. Bingo! This is what's going on there.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 12:46 AM
3

Nobody was happy with the way the whole thing played out; we've taken substantive steps since then both to be better advocates for male trauma victims and make sure we can provide the help we're qualified to provide, and that's an ongoing project. That's a lot of really fancy buzz words. You gave zero details, and said nothing of substance. We banned him because he only wanted to talk about how awful women are, which was not only unproductive in our view but also opposed to how we wanted our new…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 12:43 AM
3

That linked thread is peak MensLib... Just when you were thinking of considering whether the ML community can really have a positive influence of some sort on the men's movement, the ML will helpfully remind you what they really are about. In that moment, I didn't know what would happen next. Would they believe me? What if they didn't care? What if they decided I was the problem for causing drama? Yes, u/soulofsilence, you definitely are a problem for causing drama and giving another man grief o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/05/20 12:11 AM
2

It's more of how ML take these massively overblown imaginary problems seriously (this one is an instance of "sexual harassment" against a virtual character, for God's sake... what's next, harassment committed against anime character?) and makes these conversations a priority, instead of focusing on any legitimate and serious issue that affects men (because to talk about them would be controversial) that disgusts me. Do you deny that your automoderator is set to remove posts and comments that con…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:49 PM
2

If you were to comment in good faith, and tried to reassure us how you see the wellbeing of men as a higher priority than maintaining the fervent intensity of your community's self-flagellating pro-feminist bootlicking, and consequently, not being disowned by the mainstream feminism, - then yes, that would change the minds of at least some of us. If your community didn't make an unwritten rule of passive-aggressively mocking, ridiculing and humiliating those men who aren't in love with your coll…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:42 PM
3

So I asked you the same thing in a comment higher up, but seeing how you are grammar nazi-ing this guy, instead of answering his question tells me that this story is likely true.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:34 PM
3

And I guess the story of you banning a male rape victim from MensLib because his trauma made him feel anti-feminist is also completely made up, despite you being the one who proudly shared it, to highlight what your priorities really are? Make up your damn mind, bloke.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:33 PM
3

Wait, did we un-ban you?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:30 PM
14

Because acting in this manner allows them to exploit privilege afforded to women, and despite loudly claiming to be about gender equality, many of these "activists" are delighted to exploit and reinforce gender norms that benefit them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:18 PM
1

That's not throwing themselves under a carriage in a public event, but this is advocacy. That poor man...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:15 PM
1

Yes but this was 2015 and a teenager without a lot of experience with...anything (especially debate) didn't know that. Nothing wrong with that, you don't have to hold yourself to an impossible standard. To me it was about having security that my ideas were good,if they could survive scrutiny. That's a good way to approach this - but it doesn't take into account how the Social Justice movement (notice the caps) and feminism seem to take up the same spot in the human psyche that religion used to b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/05/20 11:14 PM
1

...because their points seemed reasonable and their evidence concrete because I had no idea how to debate them until I realised they were just bullshiting. That's not 100% right. I doubt alt-right debates in good faith a lot, but the way blank slate have been made culturally mandatory gives them power — they can say, "hey look, here is something true that you aren't allowed to say out loud", and then presenting an equally ideologically warped gender essentialist perspective as an polar opposite,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/04/20 03:03 AM
5

I don't like the constant outpouring of negativity, or anger in search of validation from like-mindeds, but I'd rather have some of this, than be a part of something akin to what MensLib or AskFeminists made themselves to be. Also, we've had all sorts of weirdos come over and act unstable in the beginning, too, so I don't think it's new. Probably comes with popularity, and pent up anger due to many mainstream disallowing criticism of feminism as part of their decorum.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/04/20 02:32 AM
5

Unfortunately, I am not sure if there's a way around that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/04/20 02:20 AM
2

Yep, unfortunately. It's equally important not to lose heart, though.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/04/20 10:34 PM
1

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences. I hope you have a better time here. Can you please explain in greater detail, what you mean by this: I suspended all but one of my principle when window shopping for new ideas just so they could be right and they still failed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/20 10:51 PM
1

Something we should adjust for in our advocacy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/20 10:50 PM
2

I believe their stance on the "showing you stuff the user themselves deleted" issue is the main difference between those two services.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/20 10:49 PM
2

Hey, you can use WayBack Machine for this? I mostly used Removeddit myself. Also, thank you!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/20 07:13 AM
10

Yes. The whole idea behind MensLib is trying to cultivate some kind of a men's movement that feminists aren't threatened by, and all kinds of censorship and self-denigration are OK to achieve that end.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/04/20 07:12 AM
18

I remember these comments. They highlighted that the real danger of false accusations is the damage they do before the case gets to court, and the ability to wield the threat thereof as a bludgeon, generally made a lot of sense and were understandably removed. Maybe we should post a thread somewhere that preserves them, and put them in a FAQ, or something.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 06:41 PM
1

making a tongue in cheek joke). :) Why does this distinction matter in this case? Because speaking from experience, it pays to look closely into both.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 05:40 AM
1

Tons of examples such as pushing the Duluth model which puts innocent men in jail including victims of domestic violence inflicting further wounds upon them. The problem with your examples is that they are the ones I have heard before. Every single last of them. And as far as I am aware, none of them influenced either you or me on a personal, visceral level. Right now feminists fight those people you are talking about. They sometimes do, but pain exists on both personal on societal level.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 05:33 AM
1

Are these the same moderates you think are going to join us and are worth trying to get to care about us? I'll take that strategy over re-enacting scenes out of r/BlackPillFeminism in this community. :P Where do you think its power comes from? From pulling a "feminism just means equality" stunt with the most of the rest of the human race. We are better off destroying them so that people like that can actually help people. Excuse me? Healing can not happen when wounds are being inflicted at a fas…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 05:15 AM
2

The books no one reads especially compared to feminist books? You conflate fanfare with engaged readership. Very few people who don't already agree with the authors of those books read them. They don't change many minds. Usually when it no longer matters and is no longer a help to those still alive. Citation needed. They have silenced us and provided no avenue for us to even fucking speak which always leads to violence which even MLK pointed out with his quote about "A riot is the language of th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 04:30 AM
1

What were your experiences like?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 03:22 AM
1

...as well so we might as well use all avenues. Now, don't be dumb and say something that gets this community in trouble, but what could you conceivably to do that going to affect lasting social change? This is the War of Ideas, my friend. It's not won by bullets. A Buddhist monk who set himself on fire is not a model of a successful activist. This fight is won by good people doing things like launching the Quillette, or Areo, or writing a book. Oh right the people who got excommunicated protest…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 03:07 AM
2

If you want a book on the subject I recommend Negroes with guns free copies are available on this site. https://libcom.org/history/negroes-guns-robert-f-williams And what do you propose by this, to invent an ray gun that magically rewrites their interpretation of social norms, when you point it at someone and it goes "zzzzzzap"? If those "negroes with guns" weren't left alone by the larger society, they wouldn't stand a chance against the FBI. Malcolm X was interesting, but it was Martin Luther …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 02:32 AM
3

Seriously though, I can't even tell whether feminism is pro- or anti-prostitution these days. Many feminists can't, either. :)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 02:04 AM
3

Modern civilized society abhors violence, which will rally everyone against your theoretical coup. There is no Dilbert-eque "anti-stupidity ray" that vaporizes only parts of people's brains that make them stupid (in the comic it was called a death ray, because the joke is implied that people are just that stupid). ...making sure they get no funding and fighting feminists organizations on every front we can even ones we don't care about just as a matter of principle. Here, you will further lose s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 01:43 AM
1

No it means I think we are better off spending our time fighting feminists directly instead of attempting to convince non involved people. What do you imagine the success in this undertaking to look like?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 01:23 AM
3

non feminists are either blinded by feminist propaganda or convincing them is a waste of time because men are disposable and the women are wonderful effect. This is defeatist, cynical thinking that predisposes you towards posting more memes on MensRights, instead of attempting any change. I don't buy into it, and I don't recommend you do so, either.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/04/20 01:13 AM
3

There's truth to this, but I wish your argument was more balanced and coherently argued. There is a reason we, as a men's movement, have a problem reaching non-feminists.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/20 11:33 PM
1

That's a good point.
/r/MensRights22/04/20 11:11 PM
4

This is easier said than done. Pretty please use a spellchecker and normal formatting and indentation. This is a better resource: https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com/2020/02/16/best-practices-for-debating-feminists
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/20 10:45 PM
0

Can you elaborate, what are you objections to CHS?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/20 10:42 PM
11

"Feminism is just another word for saying "gender equality." [...] "Wait, not that kind of equality!!"
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/20 10:20 PM
1

Nitpick: Nothing in contact with humanity is politically neutral, everything effects power dynamics. I disagree. That's just a Social Justice view of the world (note the capital), which is arguably a religion by itself. Now, their bias is technically different from feminists, but they overlap a lot. Anywhere aside from the perfect extremes can, the gender bias would end up being in favor of one sex/gender over the other(usually biased for that purpose) this creating hierarchy and pushing things …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/20 05:33 PM
1

I think what you speak of is a more narrow variant of my example: both sides of the political spectrum can do this, picking and choosing when to be blank slatist, and when to be gender essentialist in order to suit their preferred conclusions. It's not a major sin in and out of itself, that's only being human. The serious problems start to happen when one side of the equation obtains a holy cow treatment, and its unchecked influence in academia and media starts to pollute and replace actual poli…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/04/20 02:48 PM
3

Yes. The problem I see is that many feminists will claim that their position is a healthy "some amount of both", while quickly falling back onto the blank slatist position when the situation calls for an outrage-fueled hot take. It's no wonder that "motte and bailey" is a combination of words that will get you banned in many pro-feminist spaces — it encapsulates their favorite tactic perfectly.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/04/20 11:35 PM
3

I think today we have more problems with complete blank slatism than gender essentialism while talking about gender issues (here I'm assuming that you associate evopsych with having a 100% gender essentialist views).
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/04/20 08:51 PM
1

It was OK in context, but the cause and effect were reversed, as it is often the case with feminist logic. Hitch was speaking about the economic growth in third world countries being a good thing, and said that the "fool-proof, unerring recipe" for making growth happen was the empowerment of women and girls, while it's almost certainly the other way around — it's the economic growth that creates jobs for those disenfranchised who were previously without gainful employment...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/04/20 08:45 PM
23

“Men’s rights advocates, frankly, have felt emboldened by the Trump administration to file and to keep filing these complaints,” said Patel, the NWLC’s director of justice for student survivors and senior counsel. If that's at least one unarguably good thing that comes out of Trump Administration, I'll take it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/04/20 05:58 AM
4

I've had my share of interactions with people who have come here from pro-feminist communities. Their prejudices predispose them to quickly seizing on any point where you can be misunderstood, then declaring something akin to "wow, thank you for at least being so honest about your misogyny!" (this was spoken by a r/Feminism mod in connection to some innocuous comment doubting women's position as a victimized and oppressed class in society — and I'm not even likely to describe myself an anti-femi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/04/20 01:00 AM
1

Let them try. Evidence is mounting up, and the truth eventually will win.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/04/20 08:09 PM
2

That's true. Also, welcome.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/04/20 07:52 PM
2

Nope, I can see you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/04/20 07:52 PM
8

You probably shouldn't give them further reasons to imagine harassment by pinging their account — the image we project to the mainstream matters, and nothing good usually comes out of trying to reach out to people who have already made their mind before meeting us.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/04/20 07:51 PM
6

Exactly, there is nothing new or progressive about this extreme strawmanning of who men's advocates are, or what we stand for. It's just a spin of "no, you are not really leftists" that's new.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/04/20 07:49 PM
10

It's truly amazing news that we are finally seeing some scientific and neutral discussion of gender from a perspective of psychology, that's not hopelessly polluted by junk science and feminist ideology.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/04/20 05:29 PM
13

If you are not familiar with the group behind the The Palgrave handbook of male psychology and mental health, they are called Male Psychology Network. I recommend checking them out, they are good.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/04/20 05:28 PM
2

It's not as bad as I expected, but bad. I am not a fan of how it pretends to be scientific, yet at the same time shows selective blank slatism... Actually, wait. It almost mentions the variability hypothesis by name, so that's nice. But then it fails to mention important and well-supported differences like things vs people interest gap), since that would be non-PC, and says nothing about how very fashionable and PC stories, like the stereotype threat have been long-discredited, or at least cast …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/04/20 02:08 PM
1

Careful not to run afoul of the Reddit's brigading rules, as they were sometimes interpreted in a biased way in the past.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/20 07:10 PM
17

Yep, this is real. And I don't think you need to specify much further than "there is bias embedded in the feminist lens that says women are the true victims of anything". EDIT: I we should focus on the ideological bias as the real culprit here: Feminists have an odd way of misconstruing statistics until the data is warped enough that it backs up their arguments, which is a consequence of their "scientific studies" being based on a foundation that is ideological, not scientific. FTFY!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/20 07:03 PM
8

It's a bias of feminist thinking. It's like their lens of perception teaches them to problematize harmless and normal things out of faith that it will serve as a shortcut to social progress, or something. I don't believe people should be kinkshamed. Amen.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/20 03:25 PM
7

That thread is so unfathomably dumb, it veers into hilarity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/04/20 03:08 PM
1

There is seriously revolting hypocrisy in how she goes from railing about sexualization and objectification of young girls, but suddenly changes course 180 degrees when it comes to her own enjoyment of pictures of the other sex, and dressed it up as "women's liberation"... But, I think, this summary is more apt than your criticism: The knee-jerk response to an older woman writing of her appreciation of semi-naked boys has elicited accusations of pedophilia. The delayed response should be a more …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/04/20 08:21 PM
2

Yeah, but we sorted it out with the mods.
/r/MensRights13/04/20 06:28 PM
0

Huh?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/04/20 09:39 AM
2

One of the comments shows up now, thanks.
/r/MensRights13/04/20 06:16 AM
1

Yeah, I tried several times to remove the links and re-post it. Several times. What confused me is that the bot kept removing comments even after the links were taken out.
/r/MensRights13/04/20 06:11 AM
2

I'm sure you intended this comment as facetious, but it is a big part of how the ugliness and tribalism in modern conversation around gender works in reality. This literally happened before when Warren Farrell was denounced for completely unrelated prior views on date rape, when he came to talk about the Boy Crisis on campus. Several feminists I talked to suddenly forgot their censorious tendencies and grew respectful of First Amendment, defending protesters as "just exercising their free speech…
/r/MensRights13/04/20 06:02 AM
1

Bad fucking bot.
/r/MensRights13/04/20 05:53 AM
2

This doesn't even have a link in it!
/r/MensRights13/04/20 05:49 AM
1

Dude, what the fuck, you don't allow linking to Mother Jones?
/r/MensRights13/04/20 05:41 AM
1

I'm sure you intended this comment as facetious, but it is a big part of how the ugliness and tribalism in modern conversation around gender works in reality. This literally happened before when Warren Farrell was denounced for completely unrelated prior views on date rape, when he came to talk about the Boy Crisis on campus. Several feminists I talked to suddenly forgot their censorious tendencies and grew respectful of First Amendment, defending protesters as "just exercising their free speech…
/r/MensRights13/04/20 05:38 AM
1

OK.
/r/MensRights13/04/20 05:12 AM
2

There's a lot of evidence that many of these gender norms are enforced by women more than they are men. The problem is, this doesn't refute the feminist position. I think it's interesting if you think about how feminists look at this, because they go on and on about these exact same drawbacks and call it "inequality", even though the overall situation primarily benefits women. Yes. The crux of the argument is how you calculate "inequality points" and "oppression points". Early on, Western femini…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/04/20 05:10 AM
2

That's funny, in a really morbid way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/04/20 04:17 AM
3

Occasional good content and I think plenty of users are well intentioned. You are right, it's good to keep in mind that an average person posting on ML doesn't understand the nuances of the men's movement's meta-politics. Still, what they do sucks.
/r/MensRights13/04/20 12:32 AM
2

The problem is, the most wide-spread criticisms of the MRM are incredibly, astoundingly strawmanned, and pro-feminists continue to get away with a gusto due to a good PR. Like, after the Cassie Jaye's pretty balanced and neutral documentary on the men's movement came out, this is what the responses of gender academics looked like: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/mra-political-parties-1.4016680 (also see Jaye's response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww1-DJxapZw) And this headline explai…
/r/MensRights13/04/20 12:28 AM
2

I know you weren't asking me, but unlike male feminists, I have never seen a female MRA to be full of self-loathing, or have a troubled relationship with their sexuality due to their politics. So no, I don't think it's nearly the same.
/r/MensRights12/04/20 11:13 PM
5

Here's the metaphor I came up with for describing what r/MensLib are attempting. In the past, whenever men's issues were brought up among leftists, a moral impulse to distance themselves from anything that can be seen as bigotry (which is perceived to include anti-feminism) was triggered, and the "immune system" of the leftist political machine descended on the "perpetrator" and devoured them. And because leftists comprise the majority of the people professionally engaged in gender-based issues,…
/r/MensRights12/04/20 11:11 PM
1

If this situation was as bad as you describe, and there are unresolved issues from childhood, I'm afraid that no amount of advice from advice from strangers on the internet will fix this issue. You need to talk to a professional about this story. God Bless.
/r/MensRights12/04/20 10:44 PM
2

Gods help this subreddit if they make you a mod. We don't need more tribalism.
/r/MensRights12/04/20 10:39 PM
1

I see. Still, I don't see what's false here. The way these newly minted affirmative consent laws are drafted and interpreted seems heavily biased against men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 10:30 PM
1

I don't understand where's the dichotomy here, but the points you quote are true. It seems overwhelmingly likely to me that if the criminal justice system starts enforcing the biased new standards of consent that are endorsed by the #MeToo, or used in colleges for everyone and everywhere, we are going to see a lot more people thrown into prisons, probably without due process, and most of them will be men. Maybe that will act as a wake-up call for the "normies", who are far removed from the gende…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 10:20 PM
1

Could you give examples of this sort of thinking?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 09:21 PM
18

I'm not convinced this is a systemic effect, like "old-school feminists — good, new generation — bad". Or that you can infer from this that an average feminist-identified woman had more nuanced, egalitarian and defensible positions in the 1970s compared to 2010s. There were several influential, intelligent iconoclasts back then, and they are now well-known due to their equanimity, intelligence and reason. But they were not mainstream back then, and those like them are not the ones steering the s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 08:18 PM
12

It's a rather short article, so I'm going to quote it in full here, empathis mine: The novelist Doris Lessing yesterday claimed that men were the new silent victims in the sex war, "continually demeaned and insulted" by women without a whimper of protest. Lessing, who became a feminist icon with the books The Grass is Singing and The Golden Notebook, said a "lazy and insidious" culture had taken hold within feminism that revelled in flailing men. Young boys were being weighed down with guilt abo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 08:06 PM
6

Thank you for doing your part, u/Oncefa2. I think it's obvious that we need more "footsoldiers" who can quote academic literature in the men's movement.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 06:27 PM
2

This is a good comment, thanks.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 06:18 PM
6

I know I’m coming across a little strong in this thread. You are not coming off strong. You are coming off as someone who uses this thread to complain about personal experiences that are completely unrelated to this subreddit's focus. Even r/pussypass’s description of the sub completely diminishes and dehumanizes women to their one hole. Is that subreddit angry? Yes. But I am not entirely convinced those words mean anything concrete. I DO think gender discrimination is historically as bad as it …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 04:54 AM
8

You mean you can’t handle disagreement or citations. I get it. You need to spell it out for to me — how does the fact WE DON'T BAN CIVIL DISSENTERS, unlike r/Feminism, mean that we can't handle disagreements? If anything, it shows that we can handle and welcome it, and feminists can't... Also, you have my heartfelt thanks for these attempt at civility. Your case would have been stronger still if you resorted to personal attacks and vitriol less, and used the spellchecker more. Studies show near …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/04/20 02:28 AM
16

The most interesting passages: Michael Kimmel, who owns Men's Studies in the States, is particularly misandric, opening his book Manhood in America with a long list of male villains — not a hero, hard-working man, good father, Nobel Peace Prize winner, not a useful Newton, Darwin, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Mandela, King, Carnegie Medal winner in sight. It's amazing. Then in Men's Lives, he adds more villains with this suggestion: "Perhaps we should slap a warning label on penises across the land.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/04/20 11:53 PM
13

Please use more descriptive titles. EDIT: Otherwise, this is surprisingly frank and interesting, despite the misandrist title.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/04/20 07:58 PM
11

Yes and no, u/Strikester101. Traditional societies were oppressive to everyone, but not in symmetric or equal ways. It's true that more effort was made to restrict women's sexuality and reproduction, but men weren't exactly living lives of 1960s-style care-free sexual liberation. However, men arguably got the short end of the stick when it came to social mobility, and there wars definitely back-breaking labor, death in war, more illness and shorter life expediencies. Plus, there were enough rest…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/04/20 07:43 PM
16

For your interest, if you came into a (pro-)feminist community with such a biased, strawmanned and uneducated view of the issues, you'd be banned on sight. Here, we are gracious and tolerant enough to actually talk to you and explain why you are wrong.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/04/20 06:26 PM
4

As I stated earlier, the state is better off when there is a surplus of women rather than men. If you need help understanding why modern societies should see worth of men as human beings in their own right, rather than seeing us as disposable instruments to accomplish useful societal ends, I recommend reading The Myth Of Male Power.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/04/20 04:39 PM
3

Notice how you still use the biological replenishment of the population to measure human worth when it comes to men. Yet when it comes to women, this line of thinking have been rightfully frowned upon for the last 50 years or so.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/04/20 04:34 PM
3

Traditional societies limit freedoms of self-expression of human being of both genders.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/04/20 04:32 PM
1

Sure. I got mixed responses, and I share some of the reservations about the limitations of these kinds of quizzes, but when they are well-done, they are still interesting, and one seems most objective and scientifically sound one around (even if "most" doesn't mean "a lot").
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/20 05:48 PM
4

But I don't "get" the callousness I see in this study. I don't see what an women's advocacy researcher might stand to gain by framing this in such a distorted manner. To understand this, try to think of what personal stories motivate people to look deeper into gender-based advocacy — there is usually a background of personal disappointment, trauma or heartbreak, and often the driving animosity to the other sex lingers. Christians had a saying that goes something like, "No one truly finds Christ …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/20 12:35 PM
9

Also it's a well kept secret that women's advocacy researchers tend to do bad research. Because only the most scrupulous kind of human being is able to separate their research from their advocacy. This is rampant indeed among the "feminist scholars" writing on feminism. I like saying that it's about as objective and critical as Pope's views on Catholicism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/20 03:03 AM
4

This is surprisingly frank.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/20 02:59 AM
3

Is it more fractured than anything else these days, though?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/04/20 02:58 AM
4

I like the way you think. The problem is, the SocJus people usually have really elaborate, but mostly nonsensical explanations why their ideas shouldn't ever do what you expect them to logically do, based on their professed principles. EDIT: I say this, because I was under the impression that your thinking is attempting to use their methods against them. I don't know if there are examples of this sort of thing succeeding. EDIT: Yes, many feminists have been on both sides of these issues, and the…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/04/20 01:57 AM
3

I didn't know about this legal nuance of joint vs shared custody, thanks. Case law has interpreted joint custody to mean one day per year visitation rights in some cases. That's fucked up.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/04/20 03:32 PM
5

I would be interested in seeing a map with a history of attempted default presumption of joint custody bills, and who struck them down.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/04/20 04:35 AM
8

What? Feminists did write polemic about history, but feminist history is so twisted it isn't consistent with actual historical records. My favorite was that hilariously wrong Christopher Hitchens line about women's empowerment being the cause of economic progress in the third world countries, and not the other way around. Imagine their takes on history are similar.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/04/20 03:10 AM
13

Your problem is with the "criticizing feminism" part. Don't do that. EDIT: Or at least, don't make it the focus of your efforts, and don't lead with that. Like religions of old, it's there, and firmly entrenched in the minds of many, because it fulfills their psychological needs. Unless you are a master-level influencer, frame the conversation extremely carefully, or are debating Buddhist monks, your polemics won't cause an average person to change their mind, or reflect deeply on their quasi-re…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 11:49 PM
4

Here's another thing. You'd think during the decades of their careers some of these so-called masculinity studies scholars would have thought to run a survey or two comparing the levels of acceptance of abortion, or stay at home dads, or other historic key women's liberation issues among the MRM versus the general population, or tried to do any research on whether men's movement are egalitarians or not... Nope, no such thing ever happened! The party line is still is "you are regressives who want…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 04:41 PM
4

Oh.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 04:16 PM
-1

Are you familiar with Bettina Arndt? She is in Australia, and seems to do good work, so maybe you could help her.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 03:41 PM
11

This is my chief problem with people like Kimmel.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 03:52 AM
1

Okay, thanks for perspective.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 03:09 AM
34

A commenter at the NYT put it best: I get it. When a difference between men and women favors women the difference is acknowledged, but when the difference appears to favor men the difference is attacked as a social construct and denied. EDIT. Another one: So it's become that bad. We are going to pretend that you can choose some stats (mortality of men) as evidence of the innate superiority of women, and choose other stats (e.g., proportion of great mathematicians, or scientists, or programmers, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 02:28 AM
1

Kinda, yes. But I see a worse problem at the pro-feminist side: aggressive atmosphere passively driving outliers out is easier to resist on a case-by-case basis, if you find someone worth talking to, and it's easier to deal with than the actively aggressive and self-righteous mods on a power trip aren't out to get you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 02:24 AM
2

Different communities have different cultures of communication, and their own ways of creating the pressure that keeps the outsiders out. Although I detest censorship of our pro-feminist cousins and their feminist counterparts the most, MensRights' loudness and anger sure has its downsides as well.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 01:01 AM
1

How do you feel about the lack of government oversight about the spending of child support the recipients? And do you think such control measures could be feasible to pull off?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/04/20 12:23 AM
1

For what it's worth, for better or worse their moderation rules imply that it's okay to be really loud, negative and hostile at MensRights, so they probably don't ban pro-feminist trolls, they just allow them to be drowned out.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/20 11:57 PM
6

I am glad to see this link.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/20 10:06 PM
10

I don't think it's realistic, or worth the effort, until their movement clears bad ideas and people out of itself, which may take a few generations. Better to focus on raising awareness, organizing, or talking to non-feminists. EDIT: Or maybe most of those feminists are lying and really do hate men. It's hard to tell but I feel like it's worth a shot. I don't think most of them are lying about this, despite the presence of a vocal, and suspiciously influential hateful fraction. Bad ideas that pr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/20 10:01 PM
1

Nice to see you in this community.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/04/20 01:12 AM
7

This looks like a rhetorical trick to problematize an issue into being a feminist one, and arouse moral outrage in readers, as there doesn't seem to be an actual meaning behind the term to agree or disagree with. So nothing to see here, move along.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:31 PM
2

This is a good quote, thank you. EDIT: After reading the article, I feel like it's a great shame of our time that such thoughtful and nuanced analyses like this one by Warren Farrel fell out of favor, while and self-righteous anger, and indignant moral outrage multiplied by polarization plus soundbites became the new norm of conversation about gender. I can only hope that the current system collapses under its own weight soon. P.S. Check this one out: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kylesmith/2013/…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:25 PM
1

But there is no "women shouldn't work hard" narrative in the West. It's true. The Lean In feminist program got a lot of flak for telling career women that it's at least partially up to them to overcome their hardships and succeed. Unemployed men don't get dates for example. True to an extent. Warren Farrel referred to this as "instrumentalization".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:23 PM
1

Modernization has meant the separation of ideological principle from real world consideration. I don't really understand what this, or the rest of your argument means.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:21 PM
1

I think for the most part the allegation isn't merely that the MRM is socon, but that the MRM is trying to put women down as a whole in a way that socons aren't. This is probably true. "You ideas aren't beneficial to women", therefore, "misogyny". A push on that shelf is to point to the NOW and say "this is your largest feminist organization" Okay. I still think this is useful, though. While true, you also realize that feminists were dying to have her labeled a feminist in the first place. The q…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:20 PM
2

But I guess the rate of 'not working by choice' people would go up above 0%, and that's unacceptable to economic right people. Contrary to right-wing ideas about welfare and UBI, people wouldn't just all stop working if they had enough money for their basic needs and not much more. Sure-sure, but both of these are a strawman. There are social conservatives who support UBI, and fiscal conservatives don't dislike people not working as an end in itself. So we're telling men in multiple ways that th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:17 PM
7

Ideas have consequences in the physical world. Particularly culturally influential ideas. This is frequently overlooked. The story you describe is a logical consequence of the patriarchy theory taken to extreme.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:11 PM
1

Okay.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 03:09 PM
2

I hope nothing of the sort happens, but yes, I'm afraid this painful failure mode of the gender transformation towards modernity is one of the easiest to visualize.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 02:16 AM
3

This isn't true. What most people think of when they think of "anti-feminist" is approximately Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. Maybe you are technically right, as I was using hyperbole, but this is exactly where our disagreement is: my intuition is that most anti-feminists are way less socially conservative and more gender egalitarian that the public figures you name, so this perception is wrong. Oh right, Pagila, much better than Hooks, and unlike Hooks has been on the right side of a lot of re…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 01:03 AM
2

Oh, no one is demanding a case! Yes, I agree that if the wage gap is seen as non-natural, and undesirable, that needs to go into the conversation, and it currently doesn't.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 12:57 AM
1

There were a few instances of those things happening, but I wouldn't generalize from that. What's your point?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/04/20 12:56 AM
9

I doubt Trump administration would care to change something like this. This story, oddly enough, is the only "patriarchy hurts men too" argument I've ever found believable: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/obama-administration-helpfully-illustrates-how-the-patriarchy-hurts-men/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 09:01 PM
1

We'll likely need better data before making our case, then.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 08:44 PM
3

Not were, are. Even Warren Farrell opposes patriarchy theory. There are very few people in the MRM that are not at least a little antifeminist, and very few antifeminists who aren't a little in the MRM. I agree. The problem is, "opposes patriarchy theory" is often made to look more like "wants to attach ball and chain to women's left legs and secure them in kitchens, where they would remain for the rest of their natural lives without access to abortion". This is what most non-feminists think whe…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 08:44 PM
1

I used to think that it goes both ways, no?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 07:05 PM
3

Socialization causes men to work harder than women, and in a way that is entirely unfair to men, not women. There's certainly some of that in play, but doubt it's a good idea to make men's movement similarly blank slatist to feminism. Other than that, I agree with what you are saying.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 07:05 PM
1

I don't see a qualitative difference between the 3-5% or 0.1%. The resulting "gap" is just noise of varying loudness.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 07:03 PM
2

Okay. How are the conclusions reached in those studies different from this one?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/04/20 11:46 AM
10

Since today is something called Equal Pay Day (on April 1st, har-har), I'm linking a very good and balanced article on this. Here are the most important tidbits: The most accurate summary is something like the following: “It’s a myth that women get paid only 80% of what men do when they have the same skills and experience and are doing the same work, but it’s also a myth to claim that economics shows there is no gender discrimination in labor markets because studies show that economic factors ca…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 10:28 PM
1

Yep, exactly. It's when not using it becomes akin to blasphemy, that we need to remember about the reasons why the laws about separation of church and state were drafted. This metaphor is obviously imperfect, but I still like it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 10:22 PM
1

I don't wholly agree or disagree with this framing but there is an unacknowledged flip side to what is being said. Yeah, I thought abstracting from the religiosity of their framework goes without saying. Like, if we can discuss what wisdom can be taught to someone who follows Christianity (without excusing things like homophobia it implies), then I think we can discuss what good can, or could, be possible achieved by feminist analysis. Suddenly they find themselves in the position men have alway…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 09:08 PM
3

You are very welcome! There was an article I wanted to hear your opinions about, if you are okay with talking about this: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/11/why-don-t-we-value-older-women In particular, could you imagine a theoretical egalitarian and compassionate feminist writing something like this about unsuccessful younger men, and if so, what would they say? EDIT: I wanted to compare our intuitions about this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 04:31 PM
5

By making any comment on the internet, one could be assumed to be attempting to manipulate the opinion of any audience that scrolls by. Always. Uhmm, no? Many of us here actually have interesting, well-meaning and engaging conversations, despite disagreements. You should give it a try sometime! Why do you want to discredit all feminists as a result of your experience with some of them? Keep telling me what I want to do, eh? Terribly charitable. (A hint — also, you are wrong, and this is not what…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 03:36 PM
5

Yeah, maybe I should have articulated the motte and bailey thing a bit better. Thanks!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 02:53 PM
8

Your argument only works in a very limited group with similar experience. You know how many people would just ignore such a triage? Taking slander and personal attacks aside, you completely side-stepped the question of whether my argument is true, which seems kind of important.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 02:27 PM
7

Not all feminists think circumcision is okay. Not all feminists denounce the men's rights movement. I'm going to assume that you mean well, and there isn't deliberate manipulation involved, but most of the time this argument is invoked in defense of feminism or against MRM, it's extremely manipulative. It usually goes like this: "Feminism is a very heterogeneous movement, we have different strands disagree with each other all the time about things that are definitely important!" (this leaves out…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 02:09 PM
2

Sure!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/04/20 01:04 PM
16

I see a few reasons. A lot of people stay away from controversial things in order to stay safe without checking out what's what for themselves. This heuristic is neither perfect, nor morally just, but this is just how human minds work. Next, feminism is both culturally influential, and prestigious among the upper stratas of modern Western society, so you may be seen as opposing something really hip and cool, which "normal people don't do". I hope we are the generation that will see this change. …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 11:23 PM
3

I thought that included forced oral penetration?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 10:39 PM
2

Good on them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 10:38 PM
8

I hoped this was TED, which would mean increased mainstream acceptance of men's movement, but this is just a TEDx talk, an independently organized event where anything that the local organizers like goes. But it's better than nothing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 10:37 PM
2

Then it must be different from 80% of the papers on this topic, which follow exactly this logic.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 10:36 PM
3

Research consistently suggests that, in the aggregate, women are disadvantaged in entrepreneurship. Is this research based on the cornerstone assumption that whenever aggregate differences are present, they must be necessarily caused by systemic discrimination against women, with no other factors to be considered at all? You are quick to take offense to the tone, but there are few alternatives to describing this thinking as sloppy anti-scientific. EDIT: This explanatory approach also correlates …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 06:15 PM
2

This might be true to some small extent, but it also throws out all other plausible and well-established explanations for gender difference in career choices, like interest in people vs interest in things (look up Roy Baumeister's research, it's very extensive), and overlooks the fact that the gender gap in STEM is worse, not better, in Scandinavian countries where women are most emancipated. So it's another simplistic and vulgar misinterpretation of evidence made to fuel moral indignation that …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 06:09 PM
10

You are being unduly charitable, in seeing this incoherent rambling that could use a loving touch of a spellchecker as argument. Also, no normal person cares about what radfems think — and neither should we. EDIT: We should, however, care if more mainstream feminists attempt to normalize raving lunatic bigots like Dworkin. Like, here: https://twitter.com/CathyYoung63/status/1097732741901225984
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 05:45 PM
1

I agree that it's definitely a part of it. I was mostly wondering how the proponents of this idea see it working, but alas, I didn't see that explanation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 05:43 PM
2

That criticism exists does not mean we accept that criticism as convincing and the argument debunked. I brought that up, as you don't seem aware that affirmative discrimination isn't seen as universally acceptable, or influential by academics as you suggest. You never made an argument about equitable outcomes. I'm not the one who wants to institute affirmative discrimination policies, so the burden of proof here is not on me. I believe that formal equality of outcome is insufficient due to faili…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 04:19 AM
2

I don't appreciate you starting up this whole "fact-free" and "actual arguments" bullshit again And you may want to read the criticism section of that article, and note how it has "equitable outcomes" is in the first paragraph, which was my criticism. Perhaps it's just cultural, but telling someone their arguments are "fact-free" or asking them to employ "actual arguments" when they plainly would not characterise their own arguments that way comes across as scorn. And policing emotions of others…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 02:44 AM
2

Back to our core point, though - do you agree that affirmative action can indeed be about the pursuit of substantive equality of outcome? I don't see anything to agree or disagree with here, because I personally don't see how it could, and you haven't made the case why should it. I don't appreciate you starting up this whole "fact-free" and "actual arguments" bullshit again If you want respect, maybe you shouldn't be as quick as you are to take offense where none was given.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 02:26 AM
2

This claim is obviously not persuasive to people who find your view bizarre and illiberal, and they will probably not be moved by further fact-free repetitions of said belief, not matter how strongly worded. Actual arguments in favor of your case might have to be involved at some point. As the debate over college admissions policies reignites, a new Pew Research Center survey finds that most Americans (73%) say colleges and universities should not consider race or ethnicity when making decisions…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 01:59 AM
1

"More war is such a good step towards more peace" isn't a very persuasive argument in this context.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 01:13 AM
2

I don't think any significant portion of people believe in equality of outcome; it may as well be a boogieman. Quotas are outcomes. Opportunities are opportunities. Your position isn't internally consistent, and sounds like what someone who supports equality of outcomes would say in their defense. It looks like you basically propose to put a lot of broad-spectrum antibiotics in the water supply as if they were fluoride, and hope that some of the illnesses you see plaguing your society will just …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/03/20 12:56 AM
1

Besides being interesting and obviously gifted, she was also a pretty flawed person, as you can read on Nathaniel Branden's The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand: https://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/benefits1.html
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 06:04 AM
3

I am pretty sure that words have meanings, and not those ones.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 06:01 AM
3

Then I really, really do not understand how you could support affirmative action without supporting equality of outcomes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 03:43 AM
2

So what then, lead you to support equality of outcomes, rather than opportunities?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 02:50 AM
1

Nope. I have no idea how you managed to twist my words so. EDIT: And how on Earth do you infer that there is "disadvantage" simply because of an inequality of outcomes, — is the feminist orthodoxy of ignoring all non-blank slate explanations now taken for granted, without even needing a justification? Boundlessly sad, if true.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 02:50 AM
8

This line of thinking is born out of idea that genders have class interests, and that women's class interest isn't given due power and attention. I don't think this point stands up to scrutiny. EDIT: Typo.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 12:54 AM
3

I guess we can solve this issue by finding that person who has the name "Aggregate Woman" on her ID and throwing money and opportunities at her.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 12:46 AM
5

But it's not once - it's four, five, six times at this point just in my own experience, and innumerable times in the experience of other folks, and in the academic literature. Sexism to my benefit and women's detriment looks to be very much a real thing. So this sample size leads to you supporting equality of outcomes, rather than opportunities?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 12:43 AM
3

You are going to catch lots of tribalist flak for acknowledging anything good about that novel, or Ayn Rand's ideas in general in a leftist space, but I think you are quite right on this one.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/03/20 12:41 AM
2

I still don't get the actual argument, but I see some parallels with things which I agree are true.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:58 PM
1

Having people to spend even more of their time and energy to engage with you further isn't a right, it's a privilege, and some common ways of getting there are: good manners, civility and politeness, empathy, being soft-spoken, and striving to find common ground with the other person. I'm afraid you are just not doing very well to this front today. I'm going to block you until the mods (whom you also insulted, by the way) hopefully help you see this situation in a more clear light.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:57 PM
1

Ooooof, methinks sir doth project too much. Waaaay too much.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:48 PM
1

Female anger makes them create boundaries and make people take distance from them, it is not empathy that they are searching with their anger. I guess this explains some of the difference in public reception.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:47 PM
2

Very vaguely.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:46 PM
1

Then it's a good point, but you really need to work on your delivery for it to reach anyone, except due to sheer luck.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:43 PM
1

What??? Nono. I tried to say that many people use anger because it is the only way they know to express their feelings. Anger is still better than shutting up. Good. Also, maybe this is in part because of how they will be laughed at, and their pain mocked and ridiculed by "patriarchy hurts men too" or "menz tears" types of brave feminists if they are vulnerable in public. Anger is indeed precious, since it highlights an unmet need. So I'm not saying that anger should be suppressed, I'm saying th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:41 PM
1

I am way too tired of trying to find a way to talk to you, past your personal attacks, so honestly, I don't care to explain today.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:39 PM
2

Ahh you didn't address anything I said, perfect! I addressed everything I've seen as as a substantial point. Eh, look, I think most people here will agree that I've been pretty patient with you, but if you want me to continue with this conversation, you need to up the ration of "actual conversation : (personal attacks + rambling)", or I'm out of here.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:38 PM
2

If you argument is based on the sort of a Warren Farrell's "A man's appearance of strength is his greatest weakness, and a woman's appearance of weakness is her greatest strength", slightly paraphrasing the quote, then I can kinda see it, but your case needs to be argued much better to wholly make sense.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:32 PM
1

Those differences are crucial, because they show men as being subjects while women as being objects. ??? The insults toward men and women are just not the same. Careful there, this is beginning to sound like a class on feminist theory.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:24 PM
2

It is not about approval, it is about team tactics. Team that doesn't have each other's backs is not a team in any sense whatsoever. And yeah that is really 101. I can sympathize with looking for a sense of belonging in a community that centers around discussion of your gender's shared woes, but given your perceived offenses against me, and hurled insults towards a lot of other people here, maybe you would be better served by finding this sense of community and camaraderie offline, and using thi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 09:13 PM
2

I was much counting on your support approximately half a year back to deconstruct and reveal what nonsense a couple of his particularly regressive anti-male anti-science posts were, that implied men were abusing and dominating women as a matter of course throughout millennia via the Kin Corporate Patriarchy, which lends to modern capitalist society that is sexist against women. I didn't find that particular post interesting one way or another, so I read other things instead of it, and I also don…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 08:40 PM
1

I'd like to see a feminist decry these attitude towards men and male sexuality.
/r/PurplePillDebate29/03/20 08:13 PM
6

I think a less evocative title would look like: "The way feminists theory frames prejudice against women as a unique evil called "misogyny" is dishonest and manipulative". Also, yes, u/LadyCoraline2, I agree with your reasoning. P.S. Can't find the link right now, but I remember one of the rarer, not-using-feminist-theory-predominantly-to-justify-being-a-piece-of-shit feminists have a gender-reversed version of this argument, explaining how sexist prejudice towards women similarly demeans men. I…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 07:08 PM
1

Sincerely I'm still not entirely sure that a 16 year old guy having sex with a 20 year girl is worse for the man psyche than the guy not having sex until 25. That's probably true. I think there is a lot of leftover cultural puritanism attached to the expressions of teenage sexuality, and both sides of the gender wars try to play this card in their favor as hard as they can, since it resonates with a lot of people, but the issue is probably bi-partisan; that's probably what the voraciousness of t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 06:24 PM
1

Look, we talked before on how I believe that the problem of men and women are just not the same (negative and positive freedom). And I remember agreeing with you back then. But on second though, I came to realize that you are wrong, and there is no fundamental difference between men's and women's issues at all. The positive vs negative divide is just too subjective and open to interpretation. It is just a matter of good PR and framing, and institutional power: men's movement is disenfranchised, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 06:10 PM
2

Out of curiosity, are you aware how much me and u/Melthengylf focused on discussing how broken the intellectual culture at MensLib is, how it came to be this way, and what these divisions means for the men's movement?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 05:53 PM
1

Sure, sure. No argument there against what you say here. I just wish that as a community we'd have less focus on this sort of posting.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 05:47 PM
12

Please stop referring to this fringe, lunatic group as someone we should care about.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 05:14 AM
3

I was defending female pedophiles XD. Or, according to myself, I was defending the right of male teens to have sex. Well, when you put it this way... There is a liiiiiiiitle bit of difference between those two views. :P I think there is an unhealthy demonization of teenage sexuality, but the way women's liaisons with underage boys are treated differently than men's is a double-standard that needs to stop. I do not seek revenge, I seek change. That's noble of you, but that's beside my point. I'm …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/03/20 03:55 AM
6

I was making an embarassment of myself... Don't sell yourself short. From getting to know you a little, I'm sure you had your reasons, even if they weren't presented perfectly, and as we now know, there is more to this story. I still dislike the ammount of misoginy I find here, but at least I can talk! If by misogyny you mean anger directed towards women, and recognition of the fact that women are, too, responsible for mistreating men and perpetuating prejudice towards them... Then what's wrong …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 11:51 PM
3

The men's issues discussion has been sorely held back by counterproductive tribalism. Like, if someone uses "toxic masculinity" they are probably feminists. This would be funny, if it wasn't so sad. And besides, a mod there EXPLICITLY told me that they indeed were in favor of the concept. Which one was that?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 10:11 PM
2

As long as you frame this argument in a way that reaches the target audience.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 07:04 PM
3

That's extremely disappointing. I didn't imagine even they would go this far and automate censorship. So I guess those would want to speak about it would have to use little stand-in synonymous words, like Chinese do, or use asterisks, like "m*le d*sposability". EDIT: Out of curiosity, u/InitiatePenguin, as you are the other sensible pro-feminist man I spoke with on this subreddit, do you approve of automated censorship to this degree?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 07:03 PM
2

Alright. On re-reading our comments, it looks like I spoke too soon: I can't pin-point anything particularly murderist in the arguments of either of you, so I guess I was projecting my dissatisfaction with the seemingly growing popularity of the MensRights approach of argumentation onto the two of you. Sorry about that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 05:36 PM
1

Oh sorry, I missed that. I still think it's important that we don't needlessly alienate those of them, who are unaware of the meta-politics of the men's movement. But I guess in practice, we might have already done that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 05:02 PM
6

It will be a mother of all back-fires. There will be less casual sex and dating (something we already see with Millennials), less mixed-sex socializing at the workplace, and our social lives will become more atomized, lonely and puritanical. Yet the feminists will still find a way to twist things around even more, and blame the resulting increase in social divisiveness solely on men and "the patriarchy", kind of like you older feminist detractors warning us about. Let's look at this piece, from …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 04:55 PM
2

Yeah, menslib threads range from awful to decent but they will always stumble as long as they seek to reduce men's issues to pre-existing feminist concepts like patriarchy and misogyny. I think it's important to distinguish between the government and the citizens, to use the metaphor commonly used with authoritarian and repressive states.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 04:19 PM
8

Good news. We will win, and see justice and fairness for men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 04:18 PM
1

Both work, — disable tracking protection so that the page can connect to the APIs.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 04:17 PM
1

That's not all there is to conversation on MensLib, but yes, my impression is that if you want your stuff not to be removed, it better fit this mold.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 04:16 PM
1

Can you be more specific?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/03/20 04:15 PM
1

Of course, there are some people so dense, you can't possibly make yourself immune against them getting you wrong, but it's good to make your words as hard to misinterpret as possible. I like to think that most people are fine, and they really are trying their best, but there are serious coordination and information exchange problems, and unintended effects, are most normal people are just not going to look extra-deep into most issues that weren't popularized.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:37 PM
1

I'm a bit busy now, but if you like, I can go over the comment chain later.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:30 PM
1

It is good to make yourself less vulnerable to misinterpretation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:29 PM
19

The thread is surprisingly good, but my impression is that empathis is on the wrong thing. I don't see a lot of discussion on how men's sexuality is seen as predatory, dangerous and perverted, and I see a lot of discussion about heteronormativity, how having sex is seen as a symbol of status, and so on. EDIT: And yes, we have this historical milestone on record: r/MensLib had a conversation, it was good, and the best comments weren't even the ones that got removed... To be fair, most Christian s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:28 PM
1

It seems to me, one of you was using murderist thinking to explain their motives.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:21 PM
2

Then they're just arguing against facts and evidence. Evo psych and evo bio explanations for human behavior today have a bad rap... When did the left become anti-science? The left and right are, and always were equally anti-science, just about different things.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:19 PM
2

I object to resorting to the very same advocacy tactics that eventually made women's movement loud, dumb and blind to reason. There is no reason to think that adopting these for men's movement would have a different result.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 10:18 PM
3

Well, I would rather point out that very often, the attack against the MRM come precisely from feminists using "murderist" thinking. True. So I am not sure what you are objecting to. I am objecting to basing advocacy for worthy causes on sloppy, flawed thinking.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 07:02 PM
2

In this sentence, u/Egalitarianwhistle is very much describing the fact that many feminists function on murderism. The precise thing you accused him of doing. "Accuse" isn't the right term here. I'm advising against turning to ways of thinking that made our opponents lose touch with reality.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 07:00 PM
2

It is not an argument based on evolutionary psychology. It is an argument based on evolutionary biology. The leftist crowd whose blank slatist mirrors conservative creationism won't care about the difference, which was my point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 06:59 PM
2

Yeah, I've seen their articles before this subreddit was a thing. It would be nice to make more posts summarizing their framework.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 05:52 PM
3

Well imagine one day if all the male penguins got together and established a system to get all of those goods and resources for all the female penguins This looks like an argument from evolutionary psychology, and not even human psychology. There is a grain of truth in your metaphor for damn sure, but even if you refined it further, this would be a hard sell during our blank slatist times.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 05:30 PM
3

Small errors quickly become big errors. Look at how the rape crisis continues to grow as a feedback loop with thirty years of inflated social survey studies. That was definitely a big factor in how we got to where we are right now. The way you phrased it reminds me of James Lindsay. Take a look at his more in-depth explanation here: https://quillette.com/2018/01/02/no-one-cares-feminist-theory I'll concede that it's not intentional or malicious for most feminists but it's no less tyrannical for …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 05:28 PM
3

The explanation is going to have to be too long-form to give here, so if your question isn't rhetorical, take a look here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism If convincing others and not warping your own thinking is something you care about, it pays to avoid "murderist" thinking.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 04:54 PM
4

This has happened before with religions. As soon as the doctrines CANNOT be questioned, they become tyrannical. I think you are assuming malice where an explanation form stupidity is more apt, which detracts from your argument, especially when they are going to paint you as a bad guy by appealing to their most noble and sincere intentions (common leftist bias, see Thomas Sowell). It is obvious that feminists don't want anyone of importance questioning their ideas in a way that has consequences t…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 03:22 PM
11

Eh, it's better not to visit such communities often. Seeing people so obviously lacking in humanity and compassion for others, yet acting indignant and self-righteous just isn't good for you. We have problems enough with mainstream feminism, without touching its lunatic fringe, so let's focus on that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 04:10 AM
28

Keep in mind that given the propensity of the target audience of this argument to argue in bad faith, you are going to need to make your case much more strongly than this. I've recently been told by one such individual that "posting on Twitter isn't institutional power", as a counter-argument to the obvious idea that feminism has long become politically and institutionally influential in the Western society. So you'd bring bring statistics to this fight.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/03/20 04:05 AM
1

I don't know of an explicit self-identification, but my personal impression was more like "egalitarian, not feminist".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/20 04:18 PM
1

Ugh, that's not my field, so I can't answer off the top of my head. Look it up in the book I linked. EDIT: This guy also writes a lot of interesting things, but more on the psychology side: https://twitter.com/PsychRabble
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/20 03:53 PM
1

Oh, that post wasn't mine. I don't know what the post's body said exactly, but I think you can grasp most of the philistine moralizing about unacceptability of "prejudice", even behind closed doors in a bedroom, between consenting adults from the exchange in the comments. I don't disagree with what you said in the second paragraph, but I find that it's most bizarre and puritanical to see consensual kink as a kind of self-harm, and as a subordinated example of this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/20 03:34 PM
2

Before answering that, I know I asked your previously about sex differences (especially in cognition and intelligence), but what do you think of this? https://youtu.be/ryNjSP5VVI8 I don't have time watch the whole thing right now, but it makes sense that the speaker is a Muslim woman. This reminded me of Camille Paglia, an unorthodox and frank historian of feminist movement, who somehow still remains pro-feminist. She explained that this blank slatist moral taboo originated from the way women's …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/20 12:44 AM
1

I'm supposed to be surprised? I am too tired of their bullshit to even be angry at this point, their echo chamber is what it is. EDIT: What I am not tired of, u/genkernels, is being surprised at how puritan, sexually repressed, moralizing and authoritarian some of the prominent feminist figures on Reddit are, like this guy who created r/Feminism. Just look at this exchange: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/fl5hxd/need_to_know/fkwxbr4/ It took me a few minutes to really grasp that h…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/03/20 12:37 AM
2

Thank you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/03/20 10:13 PM
1

The double-standards most annoying to us as men's advocates — yes, currently, they are on the left, but it's healthy to keep in mind that the right also has it's own, in other areas.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/03/20 10:13 PM
5

I think my mind has been turning to misogyny. As in, compared to past where I've great respect for women and have high regards to them, my interactions with radfems, female supremacists and misandrist media has tantalized my view of them and I can't shake it off. Keep in mind that those people are in the minority. Human evil isn't gendered, we just live in a particular era where a dominant philosophy allows these prejudiced women to get away with it scoff-free, kind of concentrates and amplifies…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/03/20 12:18 AM
2

Sure, knock yourself out! I hope you can later use some of this to popularize and spread this more nuanced way of looking at gender issues in non-ideological egalitarian way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 08:33 PM
3

I've already had this conversation, so allow me to link a few snippets. If you want to be well-informed on this issue, you should start by familiarizing yourself with positions that exist on it: Blank slatism is the belief that human psychological traits, cognitive abilities, and behavior are all learned, rather than being even partially dependent upon inherited biological traits. Particularly, under blank slatism there can be no inherent difference in psychological, cognitive, and behavioral tr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 07:26 PM
5

Hey, are you u/BlueOrange22? EDIT: Also, this was an extremely good point.
/r/MensRights24/03/20 05:35 PM
1

Is anybody here in touch with this guy, u/Beatlesplane5? It'd be nice, if he made transcripts to accompany his videos, since he is not a very fast talker, and watching through six or ten minutes of this to get the gist of it is tedious.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 05:19 PM
6

Some people just love to stir shit up. Ahem, wait, no... It's "enjoy highly provocative and controversial conversations".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 05:07 PM
0

Covert sexual abuse is a thing though and the impact is very well. I guess it is an experience that could give rise to one having unhealthy ideas, but I am not sure what you mean by "covert", and I don't like the logic implied by the "everything is [or could be] abuse". EDIT: Two words.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 04:55 PM
3

Please dial down low-effort posts.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 04:46 PM
1

His views are fucked up on so many levels, but I honestly wonder if being sexually abused by a woman messed him up and gave him a skewed view of sexuality. We'd need an incredibly low threshold of what experiences count as abuse, if "being flirted with" is one. His views are fucked up on so many levels... I think having this controversial conversations about whether the laws we have today are just is better that not having it, but it's not OK to have it in such a blatantly sexist way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 04:44 PM
3

He even acknowledged his cognitive dissonance as a male feminist. The weirdest part was that it was a conservative woman of all people calling him out and standing up for the boys that were abused by that pedo piece of shit I always suspected that being a stinky hypocrite transcends the left-right divide.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 04:40 PM
25

However, I have talked to around 20 women on sites like Flickr, the gone wild subs, [...] They all said that the boys that they had sex with enjoyed the experience. It's mind-blowing how the person writing this did not pause to ask herself if men would have said the same thing, under similar circumstances. EDIT: Would it be reasoanble to lower the age of consent in the US to match most of the sane countries in the developed world for instances when women are with teenage boys? I don't support it…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/03/20 04:35 PM
2

I find the double-standard much more objectionable than the book itself.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/03/20 04:36 PM
5

You get negative stereotyping in r/MensRights, one reason I don't like the sub, but at a rate of maybe 1 in 5? That's a good way of putting it, thanks. The fact that it and several other subs I could name are not quarantined speaks to some heavy cultural bias. Uh-huh. And yet, despite this, Warren Farrel is in trouble with the MensLib-type of folks for the fact that his The Myth of Male Power featured a naked butt of a young women on a picture, in an effort to remind the reader that women hold a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/03/20 12:20 AM
6

Honestly, if I didn't have this conversation, I'd completely believe what this woman was talking about. I could understand and maybe forgive a bystander's ignorance, particularly in the under-developed countries where folks are still struggling for access to basic things... But these kinds of polarized, tribal, almost religiously dogmatic attitudes are today exhibited by people in social sciences academia, are supposed to provide us with objective knowledge on this, but who turned out to have a …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/20 09:17 PM
2

I can't distance myself from the movement I know as feminism. It wouldn't do much good here. That's perfectly OK! Not everyone has to care about all of the worthy causes, all of the time. Perhaps, though, you personally can avoid embracing or spreading around the worst parts of Western feminism around you, and help others in your country who care about women's issues do the same, and increase visibility of the saner, individualist, liberal parts of the movement. Feminism in Nigeria seems to mean…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/20 07:29 PM
7

We've all met shady, entitled and manipulative people before. It's the hypocritical double-standards in how their subreddits gets to stand, because it's run by and for women that gets to me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/20 05:17 PM
1

I was going to write a more detailed response, but I see that I am not getting through to you, as you seem unduly pessimistic, exaggerate the influence of external factors on this situation (which is awfully destructive, as it shifts the locus of control away and leads to learned helplessness) and overlook the progress we've already made. Some of the problems you've highlighted are real obstacles, and they are not going to be overcome by more angry memes on r/MensRights, but by stuff more like w…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/03/20 05:08 PM
6

Men who came before us were the ones whose labor built the civilization that now makes women's lives so comfortable and safe. And yes, I know about all that crap about the rape culture, but the statistics are on the "comfortable and safe" side.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 11:26 PM
1

I question how much reaching out to conservatives would accomplish because we are anti traditionalism and anti gender roles, but their are possibilities. Many of the core points raised in the book Boy Crisis could be used to build common ground. Very few because being openly MRA is basically an automatic job loss and friends+family loss much less stating you are anti feminist because of how much power feminism has and how little society cares about men. We can't even get organized because femini…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 11:23 PM
2

You raise a few good points, but there is also a few things that made me go "AAAAAARGHH" in your comment... Unfortunately I feel trying to change the laughably false image of us when feminism controls the media and narrative is a waste of time Feminists do not control all of the media, all of the time. And there are also conservatives and non-feminists whom we could reach. Growing awareness of crisis of rigor in the academia could be used as an opportunity to spread awareness... But how many eit…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 10:09 PM
1

I agree with this, but I do think their is a massive difference between caring about womens issues MRM doesn't exactly have good presence in the media, or effective outreach public outreach programs at the moment, and out public image is mostly defined by our public enemies... especially those in third world countries and supporting feminism You also have to understand how someone in the third world, particularly unused to thinking critically about these issues, who have always associated femini…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 08:51 PM
2

"Evidence inconclusive, some evidence for advantages that extend this way and that."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 05:27 PM
2

I think it's best to leave her be, — I've talked to her for a bit, and I didn't get the impression that she wants to talk to us more. Look for yourself here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/fl03jz/example_of_the_ways_which_feminists_and_mens/fkxp1cn
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 03:46 PM
2

It's not one of those summaries that support either "male or female supremacist" BS, right? Any sort of real science isn't like that. Truth is always more nuanced. What do you think of this book? It's about a thousand pages of very dense, technical and factual writing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 03:21 PM
1

If you are reading up on the gender differences research, let me recommend this to you: https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Differences-Summarizing-Scientific-Research/dp/0805859594 I've seen it recommended by a very science-literate doctor as one of the most comprehensive summaries to date.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 03:01 PM
7

It is not detrimental to men's issues to acknowledge that women too, face problems, particularly in third world countries. This is the kind of zero-sum thinking in pursuit of political power that made feminism ugly and callous. If this is your reaction, u/Jolly-Lemon, I sympathize with your pain, but you really should take some time off the internet and focus on human connections away from keyboard.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/03/20 01:03 PM
2

Jesus Christ, r/circlebroke2 is a toxic mess, it's like they love everything what's wrong with MensLib and want other communities to be more censorious...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 11:07 PM
1

Sounds reasonable. It looks like their culture also needs to change if they want this change to happen (pardon the tautology), not just the law.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 06:46 PM
2

Important factors identified for promoting the continuation of professional practice among female doctors in Japan were the need to improve working conditions, including cutting back on long working hours, a solution to the shortage of nurseries, a need for the introduction of educational interventions to clarify professional responsibilities, and redefinition of the gender division of labour for male and female doctors. In addition, we identified a need to modernise current employment practices…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 06:38 PM
3

In Japan, this was something actually observed though. Sounds like an artifact of a broken cultural transition from traditional to egalitarian society.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 06:21 PM
9

Most men that speak against feminism here are anti women You might want to specify what "here" is, as this community, as well as MRM as a whole has overwhelmingly egalitarian leanings, despite a minority of traditionalist people present. They still hold strongly to 'man is the head of the house and leader of society here therefore women cannot be equal or God forbid above him. That's a traditionalist view which we don't share. I was talking about wanting to further my medical education so I can …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 05:28 PM
7

You have to admit, this is akin to me verbally attacking every male I meet. It is either a mistake, or a trick to equate feminism with women. EDIT: And consequently, criticism of feminism with being anti-women. Not that it isn't a bog standard talking point among feminists... I always try to remember that I have to give everyone a chance to be an idiot before I treat them as one. You have to remember that these attitudes are born out of most of us having given gave many feminists chances before.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 04:59 PM
7

Perhaps I should have been looking at yours. Our societies indeed have different contexts and face different issues. Please don't misconstrue our disenfranchisement and bitterness towards people sharing your label in our own countries to mean that we are okay with bad things happening to women in your country. If you want to understand men's movement better, I would recommend picking up some book written by Warren Farrell on an issue you care about, — he should be accessible to you, as he is ega…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 04:40 PM
1

Feel free to message me, if you need someone to practice this with.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 04:34 PM
8

I never insulted you, I didn't even dismiss your movement or issues. Unfortunately, people you share a label with have done so for decades, and show no intention of stopping. When you say you self-identify as a feminist, it might confuse some into thinking that you also self-identify with such bigotry and prejudice against men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 03:44 PM
8

Why does it bother you so much that they don't care about your issues as well? This attitude is due to the fact that in Western liberal democracies the feminist movement holds a lot of institutional power, particularly in social sciences academia, and influences what and how studies on gender are done, what aid programs the governments fund, and what is okay to talk about in public. If one holds such power, one should be held accountable to it. When men's movement makes it big, it should be held…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 03:41 PM
7

It's probably gender-nonspecific, so most homicide victims knew the perpetrator.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:45 PM
6

This is a good video. EDIT: But I don't know how effective starting dialogue with denying a negative about yourself is going to be, isn't that likely to end reinforcing the stereotype?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:09 PM
1

Alright, I have to admit, this particular comment wasn't as bad as I expected.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:00 PM
2

Ironically, despite its content, the XY article seems to be less about improving men's health and more about casting MRAs as the enemy in some kind of competition or argument. That was my main point. Today, if you are saying the politically right things, you can be a respectable academic scholar on subjects of gender, and still get away with saying things in peer reviews that belong in a Facebook post. I'd also add that Salter 2016, one of the papers cited, is big enough to say "some men's right…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 12:26 PM
4

Neither do I see any explicit generalisations. Are you willfully blind? The article obviously speaks of MRM as a whole.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 03:07 AM
3

Let me see you and others sharing your label apply this stringent high standard to both sides of the argument, keeping in mind that warfare in the War of Ideas right now is largely asymmetric, and forces uneven, and then I'll consider this standard of evidence is motivated purely by good thinking.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 03:06 AM
8

For example, nobody says to take away DV funding for women. They just want to add new funding for men. Like I don't think I've ever seen an MRA advocate for anything different. It's interesting how this Mr Flood is able to systematically get away with so badly straw-manning his opponents.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:17 AM
10

I don't see any distinctions about men's groups made in it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:13 AM
27

The men's rights movement does not blame women on poor mental health, or claim that women cannot be helpful towards it. Feminism =/= women. One of the cheapest, yet most wide-spread pro-feminist propaganda tricks is unthinkingly equating feminism with being pro-women, foregoing all other views on gender egalitarianism, and the fact that, say, #WomenAgainstFeminism was mostly gender-egalitarian, while treating men's movement as being 100% unified in being anti-women and anti-men. EDIT: Formatting…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:10 AM
17

You are missing a point here: how many of the citations in that piece are other pro-feminist academics? Similarly, would you accept as objective a proof from a Catholic psychologist showing that submission is a true nature of women and embracing it is really, really good for women in general? EDIT: Which coincidentally happens to be an official view espoused by Catholic church, but that wouldn't be touched on at all. Well, along the lines of similar thinking: Contrary to popular representations,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:06 AM
10

It's a pretty dumb idea for a research piece to be honest, but every time you mention "generally MRAs" or talk about "the men's rights movement" as a monolith, you miss the point of the article. The question you aren't asking is more telling. Why are you making this distinction here, while pro-feminist academics are getting away with scoff-free with conflating MRM into one monolithic entity?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 01:02 AM
8

You should also look at some of Michael Kimmel's academic coverage of MRM, to be aware of how snide, uncritical and blatantly propagandist one pro-feminist academic can get away with being, in peer review no less, while still receiving lots of fanfare. Here's my favorite: https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1465&context=nlj I see people like this, one one hand, acting more tribal than some Reddit mods, but on other hand, appearing legitimate and remaining in control of the …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 12:59 AM
7

Michael Flood, the "scholar" behind this is considered, on par with Michael Kimmel, as being one of the leading authorities on the matter.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 12:39 AM
1

If you admit that you are vulnerable, then you probably shouldn't engage with such people.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 12:24 AM
8

I will add, from a meta point of view I strongly dislike the idea of starting any research piece from a MRA/anti-fem vs feminist hypothesis. This is why I use "pseudo-academic" to describe the work of these men. It's is bizarre, how they pretend to be objective.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/03/20 12:11 AM
2

Modern feminism has a heavy focus on male threat Why do you think is that? Like, does your movement literally require grounding its advocacy up in a quasi-religious, unfalsifiable view of the world and demonization of an out-group to function, despite hordes of academic departments on its side? I'm a little reluctant to call them scientists due to above reasons, but it's undeniable that you have a shit-ton of people who are recognizably academic on your side, and those who pass as public intelle…
/r/MensRights18/03/20 11:38 PM
1

You are factually right, but this thread will never agree with that.
/r/MensRights18/03/20 11:29 PM
1

You might also want to stay away from the more angry, polarized and hostile places where gender issues are discussed. I'm sorry to hear you are going through this, an it doesn't sound like the above would do you a lot of good right now.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/03/20 11:27 PM
2

You didn't answer the "why" of it, which was sort of the whole point, but okay. Another question would be, why do you think is it, that people with equanimity and a wroking conscience are generally quickly ostracized and marginalized from the mainstream feminism, like this woman was: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/the-now-president-who-became-a-mens-rights-activist/372742/
/r/MensRights18/03/20 11:20 PM
2

Stop victimising yourselves just because you’re not the one being praised. Out of curiosity, are you similarly critical of your movement's tendency to generate phony outrage to ensure its continued existence, or do you limit yourself to calling that out in others?
/r/MensRights18/03/20 11:16 PM
1

A better question to ask you would be, why are the market forces in your movement such that projects like this are vanishingly rare, and when present usually quickly gutter out due to lack of resources: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/who-cares-about-mens-rights/
/r/MensRights18/03/20 11:07 PM
1

It seems a little too out there for me to even bother with.
/r/MensRights18/03/20 11:03 PM
1

But why post-modern radical feminism, specifically?
/r/MensRights18/03/20 09:01 PM
1

Try to report them.
/r/MensRights18/03/20 03:35 PM
2

No.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/03/20 11:56 AM
1

I don't disagree.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/20 09:42 PM
1

Fair enough.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/20 09:41 PM
3

You are quite right here. When it comes to bigotry towards people they cared about, such as trans folks, or other issues feminists deemed worthwhile, — they've had no problems fighting a civil war among themselves to set the record straight. But misandry is a-okay, so we have feminists who are silent, and pro-feminists present here, claiming that it just mysteriously "flies under the radar", somehow, for decades on an end.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/20 03:04 PM
4

I went on there to see what it had and I didn't think the site had much to offer. EVERYTHING is tinged in a veil of misogyny. How is Paul Elam at all different from radical feminists? Yet you don't see any discussion of how feminism must shed its radical fringe, which remains prominent and outspoken, in order to gain or maintain mainstream respectability, but Elam suddenly is a big boo-boo.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/20 11:53 AM
4

It's just SPLC, not any legitimate authority, so nothing to see here.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/03/20 11:49 AM
1

Legitimization of misandry in media and pop culture.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/20 08:13 PM
2

I wholeheartedly agree that it's imperfect, but it's hard to define a better methodology.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/20 12:06 AM
1

Sex and gender isn't "the same", what you are seeing is a consistent correlation between the two. My point was to highlight that the political empathis increasingly misses this link entirely.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/03/20 12:05 AM
1

It seems lots more prevalent among radfems, but it seems hard to define it more accurately than that.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 09:13 PM
1

I like that page, so many witty comments: We’ve finally entered the brave utopia of retributive woodworking. Justice is coming.
/r/MensRights15/03/20 09:11 PM
10

I don't like how humorless and politicized feminist plot writers tend to make things. Also, I'm firmly of the opinion that the new Star Wars trilogy really did go downhill due to that Mary Sue nonsense with Ray. Let's allow Cathy Young to take from here: https://www.newsday.com/opinion/columnists/cathy-young/the-politicization-of-dr-who-1.13810484 EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 08:46 PM
1

I like how what you said sounds, but have no idea what you actually mean.
/r/MensRights15/03/20 08:40 PM
1

Maybe in personal behaviour, but not in their work.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 05:09 PM
1

There is a connection; sex influences gender generally but they are different things. I think there is some propaganda involved here. These sure are different things, but many don't like to admit that they are correlated. By focusing on the cases where sex and gender differ, people talking about it (often feminists) tend to overlook how for most of people, most of the time, sex and gender is the same: majority of masculine-acting men would have the XY chromosomes, and a most of feminine woman wo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 05:08 PM
1

Glad we are on the same page here, oh vile member of the out-group.
/r/MensRights15/03/20 04:53 PM
1

Nah, that lie doesn't stick with me, — it remains with you. I'm just really tired of antagonistic people like you, who have no intention of ever doing anything to help, and just endlessly bicker on the internet.
/r/MensRights15/03/20 03:45 PM
3

I agree with you. Doctors I've talked to, or read, were concerned, but generally less panicked about this whole thing that an average journalist.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:35 PM
1

Your claim. It is commonly assumed that when you criticize something, it's is your obligation to offer a better alternative, in order to remain constructive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:31 PM
0

No. You?
/r/MensRights15/03/20 03:30 PM
1

You've got a broad spectrum of MRAs, and a narrow selection of feminists there. That's a valid point. How would you change the current presentation? EDIT: Add quote.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:29 PM
1

Edit: separate but related, we appear to need to have a discussion about definitions, or at least the terms we use. That was the idea. It's a shame I was met with hostility from some. A few years ago we were (rightly) having the distinction between sex and gender reinforced. Presently however, we are discussing things like the 'gender' pay gap and how it is sexist. This doesnt make sense given the definition of the terms, and if we are to.make arguments for the existence of a pay gap, surely any…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:27 PM
-1

Unless you claim that MRAs are as abysmal as you currently are at engaging in good faith, your point is unclear to me. EDIT: Also, given that you aren't the OP, who asked for advice, guess what loudmouth I wasn't intending to talk to, when I made these comments.
/r/MensRights15/03/20 03:23 PM
1

serpentineeyelash is the creator, and 2717192619192, Forgetaboutthelonely and mtcapri are the mods.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:21 PM
1

So let me know where to find a better one.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:20 PM
1

Cynically, I think the feminist movement deliberately paints its critics with a broad brush as all traditionalists and sexists because acknowledging there are egalitarian "competitors" means potentially ceding some power in the long run. Hell, even someone like Steven Pinker, who calls himself a liberal feminist, could be considered a egalitarian anti-feminist, if only because his opposition to blank-slatism runs completely contrary to feminist scholarship. It's just that the egalitarian anti-fe…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:19 PM
1

;)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 03:18 PM
1

If you assume that "Liberal Feminism" is what it wants to be, according to its self-definitions, then it kind of works. But yes, I agree that it could have been more detailed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 01:07 AM
1

Citation needed.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 01:05 AM
0

Please read the r/FeMRADebates rules, and realize that you are talking out of a wrong bodily orifice.
/r/MensRights15/03/20 01:03 AM
3

What should we do to prevent this subreddit from turning into r/MensRights? I personally see becoming like r/MensLib a greater threat, but having healthy moderation goals is the key. I think we should be OK.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 12:52 AM
2

Yup, complete garbage. My impression is that despite their assumptions and other limitations, such tests still have value, particularly when they are done scientifically (see my other comment), as this one claims to be.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 12:40 AM
2

The issue most likely lies with your argumentation style, rather than the argument itself. My impression of the debate subs is that they are a great asset to the men's movement. This is in part due to feminist tendency to lose the debates due to their self-righteousness, being sheltered, and refusal to engage with non-feminists on even ground, and in part because many feminist successes were due to censorship or pro-feminist bias in the media, which they can't enforce in spaces that are genuinel…
/r/MensRights15/03/20 12:36 AM
2

You are welcome.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 12:22 AM
4

In their defense, pro-egalitarian anti-feminism isn't very well represented in the media, or among prominent public intellectuals at the moment.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 12:21 AM
14

I don't know who this Sherronda J. Brown is, that we should care about her views that much, as she has just 10k results on Google. A more serious, yet similar problem exists, though: several prominent figures in the modern intersectional feminism movement will deny having such views to end of this Earth, but in practice, act as if they agreed with them completely. For example, let's take Roxane Gay, who has an audience of about 700k people on Twitter, claimed that continuing to ignore men's issu…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/03/20 12:20 AM
7

There is a vocal feminist group not very far from me that has "misandry is an understandable phrase of formation of feminist identity" written into their FAQ, explaining what's allowed... Not surprising, given that one of their head people is a radical feminist.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/03/20 11:44 PM
2

Here's what they have to say about it on the site: The CT-Fem-5SI© is one of the first tests of its kind; a test designed to measure the respondent's degree of political, philosophical and societal agreement (or disagreement) with four feminist positions (Liberal Feminism; Radical Feminism; Marxist Feminism; Cultural Feminism) as well as a single anti-feminism one (Traditionalism). As several prominent politicians, researchers, and scholars have made clear in the public discourse, there is consi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/03/20 11:41 PM
9

I am very much in agreement on this one.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 06:51 PM
1

Of course you can't really fault my support of the Soviet Union... I can fault it when you put on pink glasses, mythologize history and overlook tiny inconvenient details like dozens of millions dying, and crimes against humanity committed in contradiction to your narrative. I mean we didn't have to have this conversation, but you pulled us into it. That's your own fault. I've met people whose relatives died in this genocide. You don't understand what it is like to hear you, probably an edgy tee…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 03:09 AM
1

I didn't know that supporting the working class, racial equality, gender equality, anti-imperialism, and collective ownership of the means of production makes me a kin to Hitler. Wanting to ignore historical atrocities committed by your "heroes" does liken your "extreme views" to those of Nazis. Cherry-picking propaganda from the USSR-sympathizers to deny genocide does not detract from the consensus among historians being what it is — the disagreement is political and driven almost exclusively b…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 02:47 AM
1

The chair is right behind you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 01:51 AM
1

So at the United Nations in 2003 they sign the declaration, saying, and I quote: On 10 November 2003 at the United Nations, 25 countries, including Russia, Ukraine, and United States signed a joint statement on the seventieth anniversary of the Holodomor with the following preamble: In the former Soviet Union millions of men, women and children fell victims to the cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime. The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), took from 7 million to 1…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 01:50 AM
1

Tbf you are already a marginalized fringe community and you carry the burdensome baggage of the more reactionary MRM. Can you explain how becoming even more fringe is the answer here? You don't have to become full tankies, but I would expect self proclaimed left wingers to be able to talk about left wing things. It is not clear to me why issues stemming from your definition of leftism being different from the one most commonly used today are being pinned on us. No, it was built by peasants and f…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 01:23 AM
1

Well, you are not making this point very well. Men's advocates need to be able to reach people, and I don't see how we could possibly accommodate your political tastes without turning into a marginalized fringe community that has no hope of remaining accessible and relevant to everyday people. You are still most welcome to have those conversations, if you can frame them in a way that's comprehensible to the rest of us.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 01:06 AM
1

Yes, but if I wanted to have a discussion on how to apply Marxist-Leninist theory on to the Men's Rights Movement... Why would you want to have that conversation? It reads like like a "Hitler was such a hugely misunderstood guy", which people on the far-right sometimes attempt, and it's not a good look, either.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 12:49 AM
1

I am aware of where I lie on the spectrum... however when I say that this sub aren't particularly left wing, I don't say that to insult you. I may have been a little too hasty there, given how often this does get used as a pejorative, and if so, I apologize. But if you self-identify as far-left, that might color your perceptions of others' stances, and the fact that the awful saying "views far-right enough to be actually held by the majority of Americans" is popularized when US goes though one o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 12:14 AM
5

I wish you would have used a more tongue-in-cheek name, like r/MensOppression, or r/MensBondage. It's important to keep your sense of humor about you, when dealing with people as dreary and censorious as those folks are.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 12:06 AM
4

That's going to be read as an endorsement all too often, particularly given that we have so many people come here to argue in bad faith, trying to misinterpret our positions to fit into a narrative of "women's movement good, men's movement so bad".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/03/20 12:02 AM
5

Don't be rude. Don't tell us what to do. Don't preach pacifism to the victims of discrimination. EDIT.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:58 PM
1

I do not deny my "far" left beliefs. I am not really interested in that conversation, — just asking you to account for and own up possible bias in this evaluation, if you are going to tell us that we are "not leftist enough".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:55 PM
5

I accepted criticism that is warranted, when it comes from those who can be trusted.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:31 PM
6

This is a good resource. Thank you for sharing, u/CellGel1! Sometimes “feminism is not a monolith” is used in an obscurantist way to deny that feminism is cohesive enough to oppose (which, if taken seriously, raises the question of whether feminism is cohesive enough to support). This is an extremely good point on a double-standard I've been trying to draw attention to for a long time. EDIT: There are a few small inaccuracies, though. Women are more likely than men to be feminists, but plenty of…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:18 PM
2

There is a good point in there about fights over ideological purity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:13 PM
6

Go tell that to the 'slib.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:12 PM
8

I think it's better if this community doesn't take such stances — this would discourage some of their more reasonable members from participating.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:09 PM
1

Give it a try, that's all I can say.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:07 PM
1

That's not my impression. Citation needed for both statements. EDIT: nearly everywhere Many of our members are Europeans. ... nearly everywhere else y'all would be considered right wing or centrists Even if communities explicitly self-identifying as leftist are "right wing or centrist" to you, that might be a sign that you are indeed far left.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/03/20 11:04 PM
1

That's kind of debatable?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/20 04:56 PM
1

I mean, the fact that this community's mods are sensible about bans, and don't issue them for bad opinions isn't hard to verify — so what are you discouraged by, a possibility of someone saying that you are wrong? That doesn't seem very scary to me. :)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/20 04:56 PM
2

From my understanding, it stands for broad egalitarian perspective without being worshipfully uncritical of feminism glued to it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/20 03:26 PM
2

Different perspectives are OK: we aren't ban-happy here like MensLib, or quite as full of anger as MensRights — if your stuff is well thought-over, carefully worded, and approaches men's issues from an egalitarian perspective, it is probably going to be perfectly fine to post, even if some people turn out to disagree with your view.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/20 03:24 PM
2

The sub will improve later on. In it's birth stage, we have some crazy people before who had... pretty "colourful" opinions, before they left. We really did, yeah. I remember being denounced because I asked that guy with lotsa sockpuppets how does he figure that circumcision is a more important issue, than say, suicide? I wasn't even disagreeing with it being and issues, and BOOM!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/20 03:23 PM
3

The consensus among the professionals working with sex offenders was tipping towards this view for some time now.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/03/20 07:57 AM
6

https://archive.is/YVBU2 EDIT: If you copy the link to it from a search engine that doesn't aggregate clicks, like DuckDuckGo, you can then paste the link into the search on the Internet Archive, and others.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/03/20 10:33 PM
9

It's important to keep this brouhaha in perspective. Psychology Today isn't a newspaper, and this isn't an op-ed indicative of the misandric preferences of its culturally influential collective of editors, like it was in the case of an insightfully analytical masterpiece titled "Why can't we hate men" that came out in The Washington Post. Psychology Today is a collective of blogs from practicing clinicians and research psychologists, without clear criteria for moderation, whose writings are occa…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/03/20 10:18 PM
1

than you are Please don't repost their typos. :)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/03/20 11:49 AM
2

I think you are essentially correct here. To paraphrase what I said elsewhere: The 'slib strategy right now seems to be exclusively centered around breeding a sub-species of the men's movement that is so exceedingly non-threatening, it doesn't trigger the feminist immune response to MRM, so it doesn't sic the general leftist political body to devour them, and this seems to take precedence over this specimen actually doing anything to help men. I am personally so strongly repulsed by the stifling…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates09/03/20 11:23 AM
1

"The out-group is literally evil." Sorry my friend, I can sympathize with you facts, but not with your generalizations. This is a failure state of thinking. Conversation will have to happen with someone else than you.
/r/MensRights09/03/20 11:01 AM
0

It's always a pleasure to reconnect and find solidarity with fellow men's advocates.
/r/MensRights08/03/20 01:59 PM
1

It's a shame this view isn't more wide-spread.
/r/MensRights08/03/20 01:55 PM
0

Thank you for this tasteful and nuanced response. You fucking nitwit.
/r/MensRights08/03/20 01:54 PM
4

Yep, thanks!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/03/20 12:16 AM
1

The problem is that the gender studies academia and most of other specializations of social sciences are either feminist, or feminist-friendly, and these are the channels through which most of the conversation around gender issues today happens. Plus, an average person tends to buy the "feminist just means equality" bromide. So what you propose is difficult.
/r/MensRights08/03/20 12:09 AM
1

Presumably you want to change the laws and societal attitudes to be less prejudiced towards men?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 11:07 PM
2

I agree with you to an extent, but I don't see anything in the way you frame this argument that will help you convince anyone.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 10:54 PM
1

Good luck.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 10:51 PM
2

It have been happening, yes, for example here: https://areomagazine.com/2016/12/29/why-i-no-longer-identify-as-a-feminist/ But your point seems to be that walking away is a moral obligation, and anyone who chooses not to do so, or didn't yet, is at fault to the point of being no longer possibly being a decent person, and that's a much stronger proposition, one you didn't really support.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 10:51 PM
-1

Thank you for adding to the conversation with this nuanced and balanced take.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 10:48 PM
2

This isn't about catchy phrases, this is more about the positive vs negative rights argument we've discussed earlier. How do you effectively frame men's plight to live in a culture free of hatred and bigotry towards them in a way that appeals to an average person?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 10:05 PM
2

I am not interested in an left vs right argument, but perhaps you could offer some examples on your second point?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 10:04 PM
3

You are confusing my position with something else. There are these negative trends you bring up, that are likely present in a lot of modern mainstream feminism, sure, this seems very plausible to me, but condemning everyone who chooses to share a label with them as pathological, while that person does so most likely out of sympathy on different women's issues, and is probably unaware of your reasoning, just seems like tribalism to me. EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 09:35 PM
1

I do not doubt that there is a large number of screeching non-egalitarian feminists out there, but the point of your "No Non-True Scotsman", so to speak, which you appear to be making seems like a hard sell for me.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 09:25 PM
0

That's an extraordinary jump you've just made — guilt by association to what degree? EDIT: You are essentially saying that you can't self-identify with a group unless you approve of everything its members do. May I then ask you what groups do you identify with?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 09:18 PM
1

Okay, so we are talking about a sample of people on the internet, and in the media. Is that correct?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 09:11 PM
0

We are talking about hypotheticals now, so you will need to be more specific, if you want us to stay on the same page. Defenders how, and in what way?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 09:11 PM
1

Okay, let's compare our sample sizes, if you wish. How many interactions and with whom do you base your view on?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 08:54 PM
0

Guilty how, and how much, merely by choosing to continue to share the label?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 08:53 PM
0

Yes, and I am unsure where exactly we disagree. My original point was to draw your attention to how our advocacy would work better if we didn't phrase our arguments this way.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 08:11 PM
0

Plus I don't think it is healthy to utilize victimhood. I can certainly see the draw-backs of the victimhood culture, but well, if it's not victimhood, what else do we base the attempts to effect systematic societal change on? Feminists had invent a whole mythological belief system, presumably so that their attempts to change things would stick. A strong independant man does not feel victimized. You see how the gender role itself prevents us from moving? That's an argument that I can at least ac…
/r/MensRights07/03/20 07:35 PM
0

Fear of being attacked is understandable, but it didn't stop those who successfully moved before us. EDIT: I find a lot to despise about Michael Kimmel, starting with his lack of scientific objectivity, and engagement in political propaganda, but there's a point of his that I agree with wholeheartedly: "Political organizing comes from a feeling of victimization." Don't let our critics hear me say this, but this does make me wonder, how victimized are most of us feeling here exactly, that so many…
/r/MensRights07/03/20 07:22 PM
1

Feminists who are pro-equality have the sense to distance themselves from the movement. I got a different impression from reading this. Hell, even Karen DeCrow, who espoused the idea of financial abortion for men still very much stayed in touch with then-feminist mainstream, as you can read about here: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/the-now-president-who-became-a-mens-rights-activist/372742/
/r/MensRights07/03/20 07:08 PM
2

You know man, I like to think of myself as passionate about men's issues, and there are a lot of instances where I disagree with the person I'm quoting, but your comment made me think something about this particular point they made was correct: Fourth, and most importantly, movements are supposed to move. Hey, wait a second, let me yell again. MOVEMENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO MOVE. I look around the men’s rights movement and you know what I see? Some two-person protests where someone pretends to be Bat…
/r/MensRights07/03/20 07:05 PM
1

Presumably with "C" you misspelled "has a right to their opinion"?
/r/MensRights07/03/20 07:01 PM
1

I am so sorry to hear about that... Maybe there is something offline that you can do to help? I'm in the process of figuring that out myself, and it's quite difficult, but engaging with people like that isn't going to be great for either of you.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 06:55 PM
1

Yeah, sure, and probably it's going to happen two or three generations down the line, after the feminist institutional monopoly on study and discussion of gender is broken...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 06:50 PM
0

See, that's what I was talking about. "Anyone who disagrees with me on X is a liar" is also a kind of rhetoric that doesn't convince people who aren't very deep in your in-group.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 06:49 PM
1

It looks to me like a really simplistic way to look at masculinity. Aren't sensitive or intellectual men, you know, men?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 06:42 PM
3

The only thing I'm saying is, as someone who cares about men's issues, and I think you would be more effective at advocacy and outreach, if you didn't do that.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 06:40 PM
1

Not sure what you mean.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 06:35 PM
8

There are still a few pro-equality feminists left, no matter how marginalized they are within the feminist community, and if you erase them from existence, you are going to be taken less seriously as a result.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 06:30 PM
2

They profile-stalk their posters, they just saw you post in r/MensRights and made up an excuse, however improbable.
/r/MensRights07/03/20 06:22 PM
3

It read this as a joke that cites a part of the previous generations' older version of social contract on marriage, where men held a lot more legal power over their spouses than they do today, but women had a lot of culturally-enforced attitudes like this on their side. I don't think this contract was ideal, liberated, or allowed for a lot of individuality and personal choice, so I'm not weeping about it being gone, but it seemed more balanced on average over the half-way situation we have today…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 06:01 PM
2

Pretty freaking bad, if true. EDIT: And to add to my skepticism, why isn't this getting more traction on r/MensRights, here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/feotzp/8m_and_the_state_of_feminism_in_spain_you_should/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 05:40 PM
7

I don't know about the sources available in Spanish press, but the case you are making would indeed look better to those who don't already share your position, if were to be supported by more citations.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates07/03/20 05:40 PM
1

If it suits your personal temperament and what you want from life, then yes, it can be great. I don't think it's 100% the case for me, though. It can also be not so great, as those things feminists rant about non-stop about its downsides are also true to some extent, even if they can't keep a healthy perspective about them to save their life, which is something I can sympathize with. EDIT: I meant sympathize with "highlighting the downsides" in the last sentence.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/03/20 08:12 PM
1

Well, yes, and that was probably what made him a good marine. And unlike feminists, I recognize that while hegemonic masculinity is not for everyone, and it sure has its downsides, it's a perfectly legitimate form of masculinity that is a good fit for some men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates06/03/20 07:34 PM
2

This one seems okay: http://www.dadsindistress.asn.au/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 11:33 PM
2

I think it's only going to provoke more confrontation at this point, and our hope of reaching somewhere in their ranks lies with more moderate and self-aware members.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 11:28 PM
2

Thanks, the bits on men and society look good to me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 11:19 PM
1

Forgive me for not unquestioningly acquiescing to demands to pour even more of my energy into this conversation for no discernible reason. EDIT: Want something, offer something. This is how it works. You are not in a negotiating position to demand stuff.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 11:17 PM
1

Making even more demands of me is not how you demonstrate that you indeed have anything to offer in this, despite your abysmal track record so far. EDIT: In other words, please kindly stop making arrogant and selfish demands that insinuate wrong-doing on my part, all the while engaging in similar behavior yourself, and show me something of value that you bring to this conversation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:52 PM
2

This is entirely wrong lmao. This is entirely true, if you've ever been there. Because I'd be very happy for these conversations to be more positive and productive. Then maybe you should start doing something to make them so. I made enough steps trying to reach you today, and received nothing in return so far, yet it's me who has to make even more concessions. Also, perhaps defending and excusing abominable behavior on part of your own tribe isn't a good way to make conversing with you "positive…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:49 PM
3

And I forgot to ping /u/Ciceros_Assassin. I don't think that's necessary at this point, — it's not like he can come here and magically rationalize all of this misandry, particularly because he's currently banned.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:38 PM
1

In the UK there is this group: https://malepsychology.org.uk/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:31 PM
4

You are not in charge of unilaterally defining the conversation here, like you would be in MensLib, so maybe kindly tone down your arrogance, aloofness and the one-sided, unreciprocated demands for being kind — you want some of that, start showing it. At least some of the examples given were factual and substantial, such as their head honcho coming here to stir shit, explicitly admitting he's not here in good faith and getting banned for it, and the same mod in the most literal way possible expl…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:15 PM
1

There are valid reasons to question how high men are on the list of priorities for people who run MensLib. I'll grant you that it's probably in the Top-3, but you getting into the minutae of this argument isn't helping.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 09:28 PM
1

Rich words, coming from a man who accused me first. If you want me to assume that your actions are in good faith, — show me some good faith first, and address the essence of some of my arguments, somewhere.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 09:26 PM
2

I maintain that "three feminists in a trenchcoat" metaphor is fairly conceptually accurate, just look at the story with them banning a make trauma victim because his trauma made him feel somewhat anti-feminist. They would have never dared to do the same to a female victim. EDIT: Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/45jbdv/z/czyzfph
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 07:35 PM
1

I think we got detailed with slapstick to the point of overlooking that my main concern wasn't with you personally, but with this fairly misandric societal attitude outlined in the main point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 07:33 PM
14

There is indeed something in the feminist worldview that encourages pathological thinking under a thin veneer of self-righteousness.
/r/MensRights05/03/20 06:29 PM
4

With there being a precedent for 'slib ranking a male victim of trauma below allegiance to feminism (in their own words no less, I hope it's archived), I guess I know know everything I need to know about their group.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 01:04 PM
3

That's pretty fucking bad.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 12:57 PM
2

How would you know?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 11:19 AM
1

...no, it's not the MensLib mods haha. Then I'm going to have to fallback onto my baseline hypothesis of "you enjoy slandering me, because we disagreed on politics", because I don't really comment anywhere else but here, and those few people were those who visited. I can't take your doubt of my sincerely seriously considering my recent comment history here, and wouldn't be particarly concerned even if I did. And I can't help but notice that you either didn't notice, or chose not to reply to the …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 11:12 AM
1

Did you, or did you not accuse me of committing the fallacy fallacy? What's your actual point? That's fine, and they're welcome to that choice. That is a destructive choice that breeds echo-chambers and makes creativity die out. I was surprised, when I tried to read the pro-feminist subs, how effing little actual intellectual conversation happens there, for how big their names are.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:58 AM
1

What's "multiple subs", exactly two pro-feminist ones who turned their own spaces so thoroughly and degeneratively censorious, that they have to come to talk about ideas into third-party communities? Also, what's my "unpleasant behavior", — sitting down with a cup of coffee and investing a bit if energy into talking to someone? Oh the horror, oh the unthinkable atrocity! Is there a specially designated chat room where you gather and discuss my crimes? Is there a taskforce to bring me down? Dude,…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:53 AM
1

I want to know which fallacy you are arguing that you committed in the first instance, seeing as you rejected my assertion of the genetic fallacy. You are arguing that, not me. I'll leave that argument to you. As I tried to have you understand before I have discussed, and continue to discuss, the shortcomings of many other places in those places, because that's the appropriate place to do so. And have you ever tried to drawing parallels between this behavior of yours and you being banned from th…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:24 AM
1

I already stated it three times at minimum. I don't know what else you want from me. EDIT: It'd be ad-hom if I was trying to counter your arguments by calling you illiterate. I wasn't. My request for clearer communication was purely and simply that; a request for clearer communication. I'm going to attempt to take this at face value, since the stereotype says that tech people sometimes aren't very socially aware, and spell it out for you, — your attempts to police my tone would have come off as …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:12 AM
2

I said you committed it, not me. I hold all groups to that standard, but I already told you that, so I'm not sure what you're going on about with the double-standards talk. Then this is either false, or you must have some sort of weird policy mandating that you only discuss the men's movement's shortcomings in this men's advocacy space, and discuss anything good about our arguments elsewhere, deflecting all my attempts to bring your attention to the current double-standard of discourse which is …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 10:11 AM
1

Hey, that was an honest and good-faith attempt at getting you to write more clearly. Seriously. If so, then you might want to spend a little time to pause and consider how this style comes off to a non-engineer, and try to make yourself a little less spectacularly easy to misinterpreted. Particularly when combined with the rest of ad hominem attacks. EDIT: Typo. ETA: Also, would it kill you to finally at least notice the point I was trying to make, instead of focusing on me personally? Which is:…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 09:28 AM
3

Why do you want to pin a logical fallacy on me so badly? It's like focusing on the argument is too much to ask, so when you aren't making ad hominem attacks, you keep trying to accuse me of logical fallacies. As I tried to explain above, I don't think it's beneficial to frame these destructive double-standards in gender discourse, applied based on your perceived political affiliation, and most commonly expressed something like: "you can't make negative generalizations about a group we like, but …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 09:25 AM
3

I don't know who you think you're talking to but I suggest you take a moment to calm down and rethink your outbursts. The mistakes are actually pretty difficult to read around. Haha, you must be a living embodiment of fairness and balance of our generation. (Well, except all the slander and ad hominem attacks you output when someone disagrees with you.) I'm banned from multiple feminist subs for saying the exact same thing to them. Unless you are implying that the MRM defined the way the convers…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 09:10 AM
1

Are you familiar with the concept of selective enforcement of law, and why it might erode public trust in legal system? EDIT: Hang on, the fallacy fallacy requires that I conclude the negation of your conclusion because your argument was fallacious. If that's not what you are doing, I have no idea what your point is at this stage.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:59 AM
3

Please don't slander.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:48 AM
3

Then you might have cared to notice, that this argument isn't normally used this way by others in conversation around gender — you keep trying to hold men's movement to a standard that is much higher than that, which is adhered to by it's opponents, including your friends at MensLib, and this tactic smells really bad.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:48 AM
2

It means you're unpleasant and aggressive with your engagement style. Would be nice if you weren't. I'm also not a fan of the way you cherry-pick evidence to excuse the worst excesses of either the MensLib, or the modern feminism, then act indignant when people in this men's advocacy space aren't happy about that. So Reddit has this block feature, which you can use, if you don't want to see me refuting your arguments, but I want other members of this community to see my responses to you. EDIT: G…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:43 AM
3

So is "MRM" or "men's liberation movement" also not groups, for the purposes of deflecting criticisms pertaining to the negative tendencies within their movements, or is it something about the purple hue of the feminist logo, that gives them this special magic power?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:38 AM
3

Haven't you been warned about finding every opportunity to reply to someone's comments before? Does this even mean something? You keep making awfully-argued comments in a thread I care about, then want me not to respond to them. That an argument is used wrongly does not make the argument wrong. When a certain group almost exclusively uses this argument in this way, it does invalidate it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:33 AM
9

That's an interesting belief. There is no monolithic "men's movement". It's kinda funny though, how for women's movement this argument is only ever brought up to shield it from criticism, and for men's movement, — to denounce it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:27 AM
4

Given your posting history at 'slib and a swath of your undeniably factual and nuanced comments here, I think I'm good.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:24 AM
4

You're talking to people, not avatars of some platonic ideal feminism. That is just another variation on the "various feminisms" argument, which is commonly used to shut down factual and legitimate criticisms. You're talking to people, not avatars of some platonic ideal feminism. People who have done nothing to avoid giving more power to the morally bankrupt.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:20 AM
3

It's kinda spectacular, how you are missing his point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:17 AM
8

You are right, it's is the prerogative of the men's movement, which 'slib is not.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:14 AM
8

It's quite disappointing that the only issue you are able to see here is the 5th's rhetoric.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:12 AM
2

Link a Removeddit, please.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/03/20 08:07 AM
7

The question is, how much of that are we okay with tolerating, as long as they also offer real help? Zero-tolerance isn't a good game, as we can see in US schools.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/03/20 02:42 PM
2

I can only wish the rest of your clique would be as clear as you are about what your goals really are.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/03/20 01:07 PM
3

Case-by-case, since there is much more to a person than holding the "correct" political opinions, assuming she is neither overly hypocritical, not explicitly misandrist.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/03/20 07:02 AM
3

Thanks for being forthcoming about this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/03/20 06:08 AM
4

Farrell has also reached out to the Democratic presidential candidates. He interviewed seven of them in depth about this issue, and all were very receptive. However, when he talked to their campaign managers afterwards, they expressed their doubts, saying a focus on father involvement would alienate three parts of their Democratic base: unwed mothers, divorced mothers and lesbian couples. Good article, bad title: I am not okay with talking about a great man who did so much as failing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 12:19 PM
1

Bad bot.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 11:37 AM
1

I was thinking of my words not as criticism, but rather, as providing context to explain my continuing skepticism towards claims of good will and benevolence of r/MensLib, which came from that user.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 11:36 AM
2

We could always check their writing, but this doesn't tell us how their people will act in real life.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 10:04 AM
2

If you admit that you need help, continuing to engage with abusive and unwell people online might not be the best choice.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 09:41 AM
5

you don't get to cry when I do exactly the same thing to you, dumb-dumb FYI, while I don't know about the community you run, but calling people "dumb-dumb" is below the baseline of civility and good faith engagement we expect from people here. EDIT: Also, I'm terribly sorry to say, /u/InitiatePenguin, but it looks like you are being supplanted as an "official ambassador of good faith from r/MensLib". ;)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 09:38 AM
4

It's kinda funny how juvenile and potty-mouthed 'slibbers immediately get when they are no longer inside their abusive home.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 09:35 AM
1

I've never looked at their list, honestly. You want to know how I know literally not a single one of you "male advocates" even looked at the link? Comments like this. Self-awareness is strong with you! :)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates02/03/20 09:18 AM
3

I think their adaptation strategy is kinda like those of pacifist Christian villagers like Amish, who try to make themselves beneath being worth attacking by the governments and gangs. EDIT: So they err on the side of over-zealousness.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 05:40 PM
6

That looks barbaric, but what do they do in the rest of the territories, when someone is both violent and psychotic? Sometimes there are no pretty answers.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 03:09 PM
3

This list makes some valid points. ;) EDIT: A word.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 03:03 PM
2

It's better not to dwell on the animosity between the various parts of the men's movement too much (assuming we both extend the courtesy of seeing 'slib as its part — reasonable disagreement can exist there), but that compilation has way too many good and valid criticisms (if somewhat emotional and over-the-top) to really count as satire. Probably contains something I said, too. EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 03:01 PM
2

Thanks for a good comment.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 07:05 AM
3

I will never tire of how dumb the name of this idea is. EDIT: Obligatory Warren Farrel has better terminology reference.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 07:03 AM
1

Very food comparison, thank you. EDIT: Cathy Young + Camille Paglia, or Christina Hoff Sommers, and yes, they are ostracized by the mainstream.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 07:01 AM
1

For all practical intents and purposes, it is, as it is information intended to persuade, not inform from a neutral POV. Their page was repeatedly raided by devotees to include a definition from self-descriptions, not a normal attempt at an objective assessment. Contrast with pages for other political movements...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 07:01 AM
1

What's wrong with being a bro?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 12:27 AM
5

Could you please break it down for me, how does this relate to men's issues?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 12:25 AM
2

They don't care.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 12:14 AM
8

Thank you for your comment! I think the greater conversation around gender is pretty damn broken down by the more unthinking, dogmatic and toxic aspects of institutional feminism right now, and both communities like 'slibbers are doing little if anything to set things right, plus some parts of the MRM are accepting these tactics as "well, this is just how things are done now, so we'll join in too". It is tempting to think that you can be that one person who will help change this for the better, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/03/20 12:04 AM
25

I’m honestly surprised the article hasn’t been deleted from MensLib yet. Several posts linking to it were deleted, which is where I got it from. :) EDIT: Post removed. Removal reason: author sucks, article is dumb. It's a warm, tingly feeling, a tiny bit like rescuing an abused stray animal from the streets and giving it a loving home...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 11:24 PM
1

Another point worth bringing up here is, if your mind is not in a good place regarding your feelings about men at the moment, maybe you want to steer clear of the places on the internet where the debates on gender are vitriolic and uncivil, and hatred often bubbles up to the surface. I'm not going to be pointing fingers here, as I'm sure you will figure out on your own what those places are. Take care of yourself, my friend. That should be your priority. Let others fight the ideological "battles…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 11:23 PM
25

A double-bind refers to a simple psychological concept, whereby an individual or group regularly receives two contradictory yet insistent messages, with each message negating the other. An example of a double-bind is a parent constantly telling a child, "you should show me more physical affection," but then reacting negatively when the child attempts any physical contact. Double-binds are logically impossible to resolve. As such, they can be emotionally distressing and cognitively confusing for …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 11:13 PM
3

The threat of occasionally seeing their silly bullshit here is a lesser evil, compared to the threat of becoming their echo-chamberish bullshit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 11:07 PM
3

So using your own logic, your own presence in this argument...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 11:06 PM
1

I believe in equality of opportunity and freedom to be yourself in pursuit of happiness. That falls under the umbrella of "equality", but so does perspective of people who want affirmative discrimination. Unless you ask for a more specific definition, there is no real meaning behind "equality", it's like asking, "Why do you believe in good things, and not in bad things?"
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 10:55 PM
2

Good point, but there has to be some point where one's persistent refusal to use meaningful terminology for your discussions of real-world phenomena counts as engaging in bad faith.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 10:52 PM
1

If you think that regurgitating that definition from propaganda equals dialogue, or consider the "various feminisms" sophistry a defense against analysis of negative tendencies in modern feminist thought, then I'm afraid yes, you do technically qualify as a 'slibber, at least for me, even if you never posted there.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 10:50 PM
1

The benefit, u/czerdec, is not anything that we can or should do for them, the benefit is that we should never become like them.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 10:47 PM
3

That seems like a reasonable compromise.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 10:38 PM
12

Call it a gift on our part. If you dial down on the misandry a little, then we could pause and consider whether we do in fact have anything in common. Call this offer a gift from us.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/02/20 10:37 PM
1

Well played.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/02/20 07:27 PM
1

I'm sure you could nevertheless see my point: kinkshaming ain't cool.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/02/20 10:44 AM
12

It's heartbreaking, how to get feminist to show an ounce of humanity "you men" have to be either disabled, very young, gay or elderly. EDIT: And I forgot being either PoC, or trans. Your chances are better if you are several of those things at once, but success isn't guaranteed either way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 10:40 AM
2

I wasn't familiar with QFT, thanks.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:43 AM
1

I feel like the working definition of leftist here is "being liberal on social issues". EDIT: Or maybe that's what I want it to be.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:42 AM
2

I don't yet know how to get around that, please let me know if you find out.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:39 AM
6

One of the better ones, comparing to the baseline of r/AskFeminists.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:33 AM
6

Removeddit: don't leave home without it, when venturing into censoriously trigger-happy pro-feminist territory.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:32 AM
3

Save the link to the thread, you can access deleted ones through Removeddit.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:31 AM
5

I think the way the deal with it right now is influencing the Overton Window through the mass media and universities to condition an educated person to overlook their hypocrisies through the force of habit. EDIT: The more realistic answer would be: "We are going to avoid having any self-awareness whatsoever, and double-down on marginalizing people who point out the contradictions in our worldview to silence them."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/02/20 01:27 AM
1

Sure, as long as you are a-OK with some guy passing equivalent moral judgement on you as a "stuck-up prude" because you don't want to have anal sex.
/r/PurplePillDebate22/02/20 01:21 AM
3

More or less? Modern understanding in sexology is that your sexual preferences, including fetishes aren't "being sexually constructed" anymore after you enter puberty. And tying sexuality to human worth, or politicizing it is also a view I just can't understand.
/r/PurplePillDebate21/02/20 05:05 PM
6

ITT: People losing respect for their other halves due to a difference in kinks...
/r/PurplePillDebate21/02/20 11:38 AM
3

Any crisis threatens the developed civilization like this . You just have to believe that this "Climate Collapse" is worse than all other crises we are facing right now, which I'm not sure is a defensible position.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/02/20 12:53 AM
3

Turnabout is fair play.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/02/20 12:35 AM
2

You really think than innovation necessary to tackle this crisis can be brought about an fascist ethno-state? What exactly are they going to do, enforce the lifestyle of Gretta Thunberg on everyone?!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/02/20 12:29 AM
6

I think too many people pop in here to say all the problems of this world are caused by feminism and misandry. True, and you are welcome. However, enough problems are undeniably either caused, made worse, or solutions to them blocked by "some kinds of feminism" that "other kinds" enable, defend and shield from criticism, which you seem to condone, that I personally won't spend any energy to dispute these takes, and won't begrudge those men who are either not intellectual enough, or just won't bo…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/02/20 12:15 AM
4

I doubt you are right, but I'll upvote that shit, because it's civil and well-written.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/02/20 11:33 PM
5

What an insightful take. Do you really think that's how fascists get to power?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/02/20 11:29 PM
4

I meant theory, not hypothesis. And also the female sexual plasticity theory. And also just about any other scientific truth that can be a threat to their blank-slatist advocacy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/02/20 02:13 AM
1

Yep. Their advice on Tree Law was funny, though.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/02/20 11:11 PM
2

I heard lawyers being pretty appaled with the quality of advice being dispensed there.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/02/20 11:08 PM
4

A friendly reminder that a truth you have just just spoken is going to get you banned in most pro-feminist spaces: they hate the variability hypothesis.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/02/20 11:06 PM
2

Buffalo Sally
/r/PurplePillDebate19/02/20 12:04 PM
1

Sorry, — I knew, but thought the first interpretation was funnier. :P
/r/PurplePillDebate19/02/20 01:14 AM
1

This propaganda is awful, and we need to do similar, but more truthful outreach.
/r/MensRights19/02/20 01:12 AM
1

Sure, no argument there.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 05:10 PM
2

Let me tell you from experience, repeated unwelcome sexual attention from someone you don't like isn't psychologically good for either gender.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 05:04 PM
2

Uh-huh, and also men can't be victims of sexual violence./s
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 04:16 PM
1

This is so bad, it's good.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 02:04 PM
1

Too. Few. Details.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 01:53 PM
1

So you saying you are also good at it.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 01:43 PM
1

He couldn't remember her name, or which cousin it was?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 01:33 PM
4

How many open restraining orders, my friend?
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 01:04 PM
1

I think you are quite correct about the "how" of this happening, but there is more than that to the "why". I think that unfortunately a lot of angry women have joined the movement and used it as a vent for their hatred. That's okay, I understand being hurt. But I suspect there was also some sort of institutional trade-off, where the nobly-intentioned academics and leaders on "your side" who could have opposed this more vigorously and kept their toxicity in check mostly didn't, and tapped them fo…
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 12:56 PM
1

That's refreshingly frank, thank you.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 12:20 PM
1

That's a good point.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 12:15 PM
1

Thank you for saying that, but a lot of self-identitied feminists sure seems reluctant or uninterested in censuring the loud part of your movement that does hate...
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 12:13 PM
2

That's creepy.
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 11:56 AM
3

I initially read that as "Offer to sew their skin into clothes", like Reapers in Firefly, and thought, what an unorthodox courtship strategy!
/r/PurplePillDebate18/02/20 11:49 AM
1

I read their Wikipedia entry, and I'm not sure what to think of them.
/r/MensRights18/02/20 11:35 AM
209

It's kind of funny that this makes headlines, but women-only spaces are a-okay.
/r/MensRights17/02/20 01:03 PM
1

I'm not really here to convince anyone of anything, and I think I was careful to stay out of the top-level comments, — I just find you community interesting and enjoy the conversation across party lines sometimes. EDIT: But thank you for the civility.
/r/RedPillWomen17/02/20 12:58 PM
1

That's interesting, thank you for sharing. I didn't know they did that much actual investigative journalist work.
/r/RedPillWomen17/02/20 12:47 PM
2

I'm saying that the burden of proof here is on you, and you are not even remotely close to satisfying it. Just like Young Earth Creationists, the "porn is a drug" people aren't as close to the scientific consensus as they like to think they are, and are motivated by religious sentiment. That is all.
/r/RedPillWomen17/02/20 12:26 AM
-3

You can find people who have been negatively impacted by just about anything that isn't devastatingly unhealthy on average. That subreddit you quote has 7.4k subscribers, as of right now. The radical feminists have more of a readership than that... EDIT: They seem to have some healthy ideas on couples (and probably some unhealthy ones I didn't notice, as well), but I don't see anything like a plausible and scathing indictment of pornography that the LDS wants.
/r/RedPillWomen16/02/20 09:39 PM
-3

I'm not ignoring it: the problem is the "presenting a part of the truth that fit your narrative" approach.
/r/RedPillWomen16/02/20 09:37 PM
13

That's some truly good news.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/02/20 02:41 PM
-1

Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a pretty great writer on culture, but don't let that stop you from inventing a reason to dismiss without reading! EDIT: And come on, the are downsides to everything, but the original link is just panicky, fact-free Mormon propaganda, masquerading with pseudoscientific language. The leaders and presenters of FTND are not mental health nor sexuality professionals and do not have sufficient training in sexuality or human development to be addressing these subjects. Investig…
/r/RedPillWomen16/02/20 02:29 PM
-25

Not an addict, but here you go: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/elizabethnolanbrown/the-anti-porn-freakout-is-eternal-and-evidence-free
/r/RedPillWomen16/02/20 02:17 PM
1

The last one is kind of nice, in a kinky way.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/02/20 12:56 PM
2

It's kind of both sad and funny how people like the author of that linked comment see demonization of sufragettes by their conpemporaries as an undeniable proof of their righteousnes, while using similar arguments themselves today against MRAs. That's aside from the fact that the basis of this comment is transparent misinformation, maybe even a deliberate lie: a bulk of the women's DV shelter funding seems to come from government money under Violence Against Women Act, which its proponents claim…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates14/02/20 02:10 AM
7

This is kind of really funny.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates13/02/20 11:36 PM
6

Got paywalled trying to read the article linked in the quote. You can look it up by name using Sci-Hub. Does she actually believe it / is she just gynocentric (she does still call herself a feminist IIRC)? Are you really going to fixate on and discuss only the single remotely-critical point she makes, overlooking the nuance and balance of the rest of it? Come on... Also, "gynocenrism" just isn't a good term.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates12/02/20 04:18 AM
22

Some relevant bits: Where does feminism come into all this? You’d think that a movement which challenged stereotypes of female fragility and passivity would welcome evidence that women can be aggressors as much as victims on the home front. You’d think that a movement ostensibly championing equality would call for equal treatment for abusers and victims regardless of gender. But with a few exceptions such as former National Organization for Women president Karen DeCrow, feminists have been inten…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 11:05 PM
1

But people read way to far into not allowing this particular post. "Once is happenstance, twice is a coincidence, three times — enemy action," is how I believe the WWII saying goes. Way too many coincidences.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 03:33 PM
0

Thing is, it's not a coincidence, or a freak occurrence at this point. It look like, this is how you operate. Of you look hard enough, you are always going to find an excuse.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 03:29 PM
2

That's just who the mods are over there.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 03:24 PM
1

I visit the r/PPD from time to time, it's good.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 03:15 PM
0

For someone who loves posting on r/MensGlib that your subreddit "certainly isn't just three feminists in a trenchcoat" you sure write a lot of comments to this effect, white-washing and absolving feminist of guilt in this community...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 03:09 PM
2

That publication is the home turf of effing Michaels Flood and Kimmel, 99% of it is like this.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 02:46 PM
1

I would be OK with this article in a culture where you could write the same of women.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 02:42 PM
18

He's just another loud idiot with too much time on his hands, and too little ability for original thinking, even worse than the guy behind We Hunted The Mammoth. These sorts are driving the gap of political polarization on gender issues even wider, srawmanning their opposition, and cheerfully fanning the flames of hostility and outrage, thus sustaining the gender war. We need civility, common ground and dialogue, instead of this idiocy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 02:41 PM
2

Quite true.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates11/02/20 02:28 PM
7

And of course the post is immediately locked to prevent the seditious thoughts from being spread around. :P
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates10/02/20 08:15 PM
1

The history isn't over yet. There is hope.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/02/20 05:25 AM
1

I think it's implied.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates08/02/20 05:24 AM
1

I agree with your sentiments, but I don't like seeing the men's movement adopt the same manipulative tactics that turned the feminists raving mad; I think it's human nature to eventually start believing one's own lies.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates05/02/20 03:58 PM
8

Yup. I don't mind the Impossible Burgers, and would like to try one, but casting the people who dislike them as un-PC is just inane.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/20 09:48 PM
2

We probably shouldn't frame the issue this way to avoid coming off as sensationalist and alienating people; plus, in my experience, people who use this as an argument tend to be pretty incoherent.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/20 09:04 PM
10

There are some valid concerns about soy consumption and elevated estrogen levels, but hey, you gotta make it about toxic / fragile masculinity.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/20 08:55 PM
1

Oh yeah, she is the sort of an egalitarian most feminists unjustifiably dream of seeing themselves as.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/20 12:33 PM
2

Nice conversation. Thanks for really laying out your arguments like that. EDIT: Typo.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/20 12:32 PM
1

I've seen that... Their response to us questioning this lowliness usually is, "So what, you want us to send in the feminst police to knock on their doors?" I have would respond along the lines of: " I don't know, maybe send in the feminist SWAT." Most political groups have measures designed to keep exceptionally awful outliers from representing and being rightfully associated with an ethos of the whole group. Plus feminists themselves have no problems purity-policing when they care about the iss…
/r/MensRights04/02/20 12:30 PM
1

Bill and Melinda Gates, anyone? Men did "give up their privileges", though. Also please don't conflate women and feminists as groups.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates04/02/20 12:24 PM
3

On an unrelated note, I like and respect Cathy Young on the matters of gender equity and wanted to recommend her to someone in the spaces we share.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 10:05 PM
2

That's some pretty breath-taking hypocrisy.
/r/MensRights03/02/20 09:21 PM
7

Yeah, Title IX is definitely not applied in the spirit of equal treatment. Your take isn't that hot.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 09:17 PM
2

Fuckin' bitch gonna make me cry.... And yes, that was ever so eloquently put. :P LOL, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she started out as a feminist and then became disillusioned later on, switching to a humanist or just eschewing labels altogether. I followed her writing closely for more than a few years, but I don't think I remember her doing that. EDIT: Whatever she is, I'm glad she's out there and writing. Same here.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 08:28 PM
1

I have a lot of issues with your interpretations of this conversation. We seem to be leaving the good faith argument territory as not a single one of what you are describing are actually my positions. However, I'm too tired and too busy to address them today, so let's take a break.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 08:11 PM
2

This was a while ago, but this was the clearest I was able to find: When I came to the United States in 1980 at the age of seventeen, I was a feminist -- before I even knew the word. In the Soviet Union, where I was born and raised, the official dogma of equality coexisted with pervasive old-fashioned sexism: catching a husband was supposed to be a girl's supreme goal; the superiority of the masculine mind was taken for granted by many women as well as men; too much intellect, ambition, or stren…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 08:08 PM
1

I remember she said as much about herself, yes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 07:12 PM
1

I think it should have been left up, it's just too good an article.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 06:52 PM
1

Yep. She is most definitely one of the precious few equity feminists left.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 06:51 PM
2

May you remind me why do you want so much for rich people to not be taxed? Are you familiar with the expression "non sequitur"?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 06:32 PM
3

This place is better than most, but there is a lot of "left good, right bad" mentality going on in the spaces where we talk about gender.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 06:20 PM
1

I got hit by those idiots when I was talking about how sensitivity isn't a gendered characteristic, and again, when I discussed Sulkowicz; rather unpleasant, and seemed to fit well with the general atmosphere.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 06:03 PM
2

I just see it fitting better with left-wing ideology... despite the bad fit with current left-wing ideology, if that makes sense. Yes, that makes a lot of sense, but please account for the possibility of your personal politics influencing that assessment. But I'm talking about which ideology is a better fit, and the Overton Window of "normie" opinions is potentially moveable. This question just doesn't parse for me. I think we need more engagement from both sides. I'm probably in the minority he…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:54 PM
1

Alimony is a very small percentage of the difference (around a third). Citation needed? And frankly, this is the reason of the disparity: So this graph claims to show that there are more high-earning men than women. So what is your conclusion here, as it relates to Nobels?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:36 PM
1

Where are you proving to me that the null hypothesis is wrong? Your position isn't a null hypothesis, it is a feminist talking point. And since feminist propaganda is asserted without plausible evidence, I can dismiss it without evidence. I admit as much than there is a possibility that the variance difference is the cause, that is, amongst the hundreds others possibilities. Do you have a mathematical demonstration? There are graphs, if that's what you mean. Here's one, off the top of my head: h…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:34 PM
1

Home-makers get alimony. Again, there's this displacement issue: once you acknowledge the legitimacy of the feminist propaganda view of the issue, "it" starts to fight to be recognized as the only legitimate explanation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:26 PM
28

It really looks like there is a social pressure on men-only spaces to admit women in the Western countries, but not the other way around, and that's not a good thing, at least from the networking perspective; the "boys club" is now relentlessly demonized as sexist, but the feminist-only advocacy "safe space" is praised as progressive.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:23 PM
5

I think the amount of flak the centrists get from both ends of the horseshoe today is unreasonable, and reaching the "normies" is what most of advocacy should aim at. EDIT: Bi-partisan, as in, something that should ideally concern both sides of the political spectrum, yes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:17 PM
1

A., Women live longer. B., How exactly do you weigh the factors responsible for this? All I heard was that the feminist politics-approved explanations need to be given precedent, and need to be the only explanations considered. What kind of data you have that explains the Nobel out of the variability theory compared to the competing theories? It's rather obvious if you think about it in non-blank slatist terms. Those who get Nobels are at the extreme end of the bell curve distribution, so even i…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:16 PM
1

Women are only poorer if you have a very slanted view of what counts as wealth. Your third point seems rather obvious: where are the government programs specific to the male gender? And I know that male health issues are funded less.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 05:12 PM
6

I strongly believe it to be a bi-partisan issue.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 04:37 PM
4

If an unfortunate accident happens to Cathy Young (knock on wood that it doesn't), feminism is going to lose approximately half of its capacity for sensibility snd empathy, as seen in public figures. EDIT: Thanks for sharing, this is a good article.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates03/02/20 04:34 PM
1

I think this is the only space where we could have this conversation. On r/MensRights you can technically have it as well, but you'd be drowned out, and on pro-feminist spaces you will be banned for dissent. You can debate r/MensLib mods too, but never on their own turf, mostly here.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates01/02/20 09:43 AM
2

That is a certainly a part of the story, but why are you making what seems to me less than half of the story to be the whole thing?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 11:44 PM
1

That's how a "practical solution" to problem like this is going to look like, 99% of the time: a government program, paid for by tax money, funded disproportionately by men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 09:55 PM
2

I believe the dogmatism and censoriousness of the pro-feminist spaces annoys the hell out of a lot of people who aren't devotees, and creates a pressure that drives many moderate spaces to have a pronounced presence of anti-feminist stances.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 09:54 PM
1

For instance, the environmentalist movement brings with it the baggage of a dogmatic anti-nuclear stance (as well as dogmatic anti-GMO stances and a complete lack of interest in, or even opposition to, hypothetical future solutions like geo-engineering). That's true, the right doesn't have the monopoly on being anti-science. I'm not sure if we're quite on the same page. Fair enough, your stance seems broadly reasonable.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 09:41 PM
2

So you are going to dismiss any evidence to the contrary out of hand, because what, political correctness? EDIT: And it also seems your argument disproves itself: 30% of women in STEM today didn't translate into 30% of STEM Nobels going to women, despite a lot of political pressure. What kind of data would it take for you to agree that your theory was falsified?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 09:38 PM
5

Bingo! And then sit down and wait for the feminists to destroy the patriarchy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 09:38 PM
1

A whistleblower in a college weaving circle consisting of five-seven people? Come on.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 01:48 PM
1

I think you are quite correct in that the vitriolic reaction towards her isn't about an autistic teenager herself, but rather about the demand for stereophonic reactions to the climate change she represents and demands. I personally tend to think her parents are lacking in basic human decency for allowing their fixated, autistic daughter to be dragged into this in public; all this anger can't be good for her mental health.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 01:47 PM
1

There are still some niche, but important distinctions, like variability theory, which would explain the gap in Nobels, which is a particularly important feminist talking point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 01:42 PM
1

Yes. There is saying I believe in: that what makes you a good or a bad person is not what happens to you, but how you react to it, and while shaming a teenager for her mental health is gross, Miss Thunberg isn't going to be a voice or reason we need in this for sure.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 01:41 PM
1

I'm banned from /r/askfeminism for telling them much the same things I say here. My point is simple; these spaces are more effective when they spend less time being angry at one another. Perhaps if you get back to me after you are also banned from r/MensRights or from here, as well, then maybe we can finally begin discussing what my point actually is. If you guys ever had any overly pro-feminism points (haha good joke) you'd likely see that skepticism come out, but I haven't seen any, so.... It'…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 04:34 AM
1

The only real question for me personally is separating the disingenuous grifters from the people that actually believe all those things but just aren't smart enough to understand what they are pontificating for. The problem is the human tendency to believe own lies after a while. Is there a feminist who still remembers the difference, except maybe equity feminists, or anti-feminist feminists, like Paglia was described, on the margins?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 03:52 AM
1

Have you encountered the concept of steelmanning? Your treatment of this thread could benefit from it, a lot. We discuss here a curious double-standard enforced to tilt the terrain in discussion spaces controlled by feminists, likely to better defend their positions of power, as I explained my view here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ewaipj/nobody_talks_about_the_womanosphere_and_i_doubt/fg149a0 I would assume the next steps and possible improvements are kind of obvious…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 03:50 AM
2

I believe you are mistaken to think they are trying to achieve equilibrium, insofar as a single decision-making center even exists. It seems to me, they have spontaneously gravitated towards a worldview where the goals-posts are shifted further and further to keep everyone involved suitably outraged and continuously employed fighting newly invented forms of oppression they have recently worked themselves up over. Theoretically, it could help someone acting like this home into and fight even smal…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 03:30 AM
1

It's not hard. Maybe, but I'm not sure if there is a reason to try to. Why are you here, in this community? Almost every thread I see you in, you are defending feminist talking points, like "toxic masculinity".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 03:21 AM
1

For another, there is a study I'm thinking of (which I believe I first saw here) showed that there was a significant bias in scientific studies gaining traction when they showed bias against woman, but not when it showed no bias or showed bias going the other direction. Yes, and it was me who linked that. But distortions of our perception of this reality does not mean that the reality itself does not exist. Point being: women do not need help. We need not bend over to protect them any more than …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 03:12 AM
5

Are you asking me why academia has swung to the left since about 1990? I think that it's because the right is increasingly indulging in 'fake news' and a post truth world narrative. The republican party used to be the party of principles, or at least it prided itself that it was. Now it's just the party of retaining power by any means necessary. So it makes sense to me that someone who is seeking the truth would end up increasingly leftist. I see just as many tendencies you describe on the left.…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 03:06 AM
3

This is a fair point, and I'm sorry for doing so. I'm not perfect at modeling my own convictions. Do you understand the point I was trying to make? You wanted to show me that tone, such as sarcasm doesn't always translate well online in writing, particularly short-form, such as comments?! I will, once again, invite you to state in specific terms what content you want me to engage with that you believe I've missed and I'll do my best to address it. We've had this conversation before and you did n…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:59 AM
3

I really don't think so. I think nearly everything that looks like competence in that vein is just some cascade from Women Are Wonderful. I think leveraging their gender is absolutely critical to most women's social success. I understand what you are trying to say here. Blank slatism is a very understandable, but incorrect response to this — it's important not to exaggerate them, or be 100% gender essentialist, but some gender differences do exist. I can't link the study off the top of my head, …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:56 AM
3

I have no idea what gamification has to do with anything. EDIT: Also, would you please take a look at this: https://righteousmind.com/viewpoint-diversity/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:46 AM
11

Warren Farrel talked about this downside of the male gender role as instrumentalization, or as men being seen as success objects.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:39 AM
2

They go nowhere, and you gave up last time after attacking me a thousand different ways. No comment on your ad hominem attack, but perhaps this would go better if you at least ocassionally adressed the meaning behind your opponents' arguments: bad form could be overlooked, while lack of engagement with content is something you just can't get past, which is coincidentally a common MRM problem when trying to engage in with feminists. EDIT: Also, let me just remark how hurtful it is, that you conti…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:36 AM
2

Your example is still presupposing women have superior interpersonal skills. To be fair, this is likely true. The real wicked double-standard is that it's forbidden and very un-PC to mention in public that men tend to score higher on technical skills, but it's A-OK to say that women are better in interpersonal skills. EDIT: Also, this is something I wanted to bring up with you, u/Melthengylf.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:30 AM
1

While I see some truth in that phrase, I don't like how it is directed against Greta Thunberg. I doubt that more hysteria is going to result in better policy.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:27 AM
4

If the reason is indeed the value to be found in diversity, why don't we see more of a push for diversity of opinions and values, rather than diversity of immutable, but superficial characteristics like sex, sexual orientation and skin color?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:26 AM
4

I think in this particular point I differ from most of this sub: I think adopting feminist tactics as a copy-paste to male issues won't really be effective, and in some cases might even backfire. A round of applause: you are correct.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:24 AM
2

Well, then you comment is rather fruitless, because I don't accept that you don't understand. EDIT: And it was a rhetorical question.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:17 AM
2

Do you really get the impression that people who framed the discussion of these issues as a "gender war" care about communication, particularly when it doesn't happen on their terms, in the spaces they control?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 02:11 AM
2

People sometimes collaborate as a social circle on these things?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 01:30 AM
1

Women who never got married earn more, or the same. But, as I said, the core issue is still the problem of finantial autonomy from their partners. I sympathize, but the problem is how they frame the issue. Alimony already exists. Are their marriages not working out something the rest of the human population needs to be penalized for with taxes?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates31/01/20 12:38 AM
2

Yes. However, if you remove the vulgarly dumb explanations like "it's the work of Satan" or "patriarchy", why is unequal compensations for different work fields a problem? It's not my fault they decided to equate power and privilege with money, and not with a myriad of other measurements of well-being where women fare better! This is still a solution that's not going to work to a problem that their ideology does not equip them with adequate mental models to understand. EDIT: I think we ended at …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 10:40 PM
28

If it's not explicitly feminist-aligned, it is still progress.
/r/MensRights30/01/20 10:18 PM
9

The closest analogue I know is "commentariat". EDIT: I think it's even worse than you describe, u/czerdec. When their kind argues against us, we get lumped together into an entity called "manosphere", no further distinctions or recognition of individuality necessary, and it's usually coupled with their favorite insulting expletive, but when you try to politely discuss the prevailing tendencies in mainstream feminist thought, you get hit with the "various feminisms" malarkey that is used as a shi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 09:40 PM
2

My point is, I reserve the right to remain skeptical of this point until I see the activists arguing for it in the wild use intelligible arguments. I'm sure they would agree with your reasoning because it arrives at a conclusion they want, but would they agree with it otherwise? I don't think your reasoning is the same as theirs — at some point people "on your side" start believing the dumb arguments their leaders preciously used as tools.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 09:32 PM
2

And as long we both understand that the contemporary feminist rhetoric about wage gap doesn't see this distinction at all.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 09:06 PM
2

As long as you understand that there are indeed differences in how much a job pays that are not born out of discrimination.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 08:56 PM
1

So are you taking the position that all equally skilled kinds of work should pay the same, then, otherwise it's discriminatory? Because if not, then I don't understand your point.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 06:41 PM
1

But it's not like you thought about reasonable doubt when you accused her of lying (?). I did give her the benefit of doubt, but there are way too many holes and incosistencies in her story and behaviour that make me tend towards this view, yes. You can read more about it here: https://reason.com/2017/07/28/discredited-the-legend-of-mattress-girl/ EDIT: The multiple complaints, it turned out, were not independent of each other, and the other two women were not alleging rape. One was an ex-girlfr…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 06:40 PM
1

What for? EDIT: Well, there is no exact reason why things would be payed more than peoples issues (in fact, it is not, interpersonal nonroutine cognitive tasks are as highly payed as analytical nonroutine cognitive tasks). There are a lot of reasons why something would cost more or less that another thing. They don't have to involve a nebulous, but all-permeating evil force as an explanation. Also, I have no idea what the bit after "in fact" means.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 04:22 PM
1

EDIT: But it is not that I trust the woman more than the man because she's a woman. It is that four women all alleged similar scenarios, and I certainly consider a woman's testimony to be worth more than a fourth of a man's one. Due process isn't a democracy; this isn't about tallying votes. And maybe this "extremely frequent" bit means that the legal standard for what constitutes a sexual assault have gotten so very tenuous lately, and can be bent to retrospectively include any encounter that a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 04:21 PM
1

Well, there is no exact reason why things would be payed more than peoples issues (in fact, it is not, interpersonal nonroutine cognitive tasks are as highly payed as analytical nonroutine cognitive tasks). But they are. Supply and demand, end of story.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 06:48 AM
1

Her story had so many holes in it, you can make pasta with it. She didn't even see that encounter as an assault until her woke friend talked her into it! EDIT: Oh God, you weren't joking about her being "nice"...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 06:45 AM
2

Please do some actual research; there is evidence that it's men who are more sensitive, but more repressed. EDIT: Also, I'm sorry, but this is where I conclude that you are not someone worth my time and block you.
/r/MensRights30/01/20 06:39 AM
1

What you say is a non sequitur. Please start making sense or begone. Also, note that this community has rules for civility enforced.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates30/01/20 06:36 AM
0

I strongly dislike bad faith arguments. And FYI, sensitivity isn't correlated to gender.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 08:09 PM
2

Baby steps.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 01:12 PM
2

How about the interest in people vs things gap, differences in preference for the work-life balance trade-off, and tolerance for stress? (I could go on, but still.) Are we now pretending those don't exist?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/01/20 01:02 PM
1

I think it's beginning to look more like a willful trade-off between truthfulness and political edge.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/01/20 01:00 PM
3

True.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 12:59 PM
1

Yeah, very human and moving story. I wish we'd see more of that. Except for her likely false rape accusation that made the guy's life hell for a year, made him drop out change majors, and move countries, which she kinda politely pretends did not happen at all now. EDIT: Typo.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates29/01/20 12:58 PM
2

I sympathize with your frustration, and I'd say it's selection bias multiplied by bad experiences. A sub-set of women do behave this way, and men who run in circles most likely to deal with them will be more likely to gravitate to the TRP views, overlooking the vulgarity of their outlook in favor of its practicality.
/r/PurplePillDebate29/01/20 11:21 AM
0

I think, maybe you should take a leaf out of the Matress Girls' book and read some Jonathan Haidt.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 11:09 AM
2

That's a fair point.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 11:09 AM
1

Thanks, I think I'm done assuming this is a conversation in good faith.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 11:08 AM
-6

People can grow and change; forgiveness is possible.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 01:46 AM
-1

I do get it, but triablism isn't good for your thinking.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 12:31 AM
0

Dude, WTF...
/r/MensRights29/01/20 12:19 AM
-2

His advice is more geared to young men, so I'm less impressed by that.
/r/MensRights29/01/20 12:16 AM
9

"Life finds a way", as they say. Another saying that comes to mind "Twitter isn't real life."
/r/MensRights29/01/20 12:16 AM
25

I wanted to thank you for linking something that includes that amazingly human story of Emma Sulkowicz growing as a human being: when I followed her story, I never expected her to grow up intellectually and read Haidt. :P
/r/MensRights29/01/20 12:04 AM
1

My friend, you badly need to at least browse the index of Warren Farrel's book Why Men Earn More.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/01/20 11:59 PM
1

To be fair, there is an approximately 1% of feminists who have a statistically literate understanding of the wage gap, and their opinions almost never make it to the newspapers, or to the policy lobbying organizations. EDIT: This is an example of a sensible representation of the issue, which is rarely used in public, because it's not sufficiently moral outrage-generating: https://www.thecut.com/2019/10/did-emma-sulkowicz-mattress-performance-get-redpilled.html
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/01/20 11:56 PM
2

She is sometimes wrongly championed by MRAs as an epitome of what's wrong with feminism; and I think that's wrong, there are lunatics everywhere (just look at our own Pro-Male Collective) — what we should be drawing attention to is how the work of someone as obviously mentally unwell as her could be mainstreamed and legitimized by the wider movement.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/01/20 01:12 PM
6

I personally think that Ruth Badger Ginsburg is a good guy, but she also said that equality would be achieved when we have nine out of nine female judges on the bench, so make of that what you will.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates28/01/20 01:09 PM
4

I am a fan of both Cathy Young and Camille Paglia.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/01/20 08:10 PM
1

You might enjoy the story, nonetheless: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HawFh7RvDM4RyoJ2d/three-worlds-collide-0-8
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/01/20 08:00 PM
6

I'm sympathetic, and hope that your pain doesn't turn into poison.
/r/PurplePillDebate27/01/20 03:36 AM
1

On an unrelated note, is your username a referernce to the Three Worlds Collide story at Less Wrong?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates27/01/20 03:20 AM
13

Why do you believe this is fake? What is the evidence?
/r/MensRights27/01/20 12:11 AM
4

Also blank slatism. Never mind that there are tons of research showing men to have a visually-driven sexuality, whereas women do not, which explains the gender division on the dick picks issue.
/r/MensRights27/01/20 12:05 AM
1

Like I'll seriously take the time but it shouldn't come to a surprise to anyone that I give myself a rate limit on my contributions here because it's not often worth the effort, particularly when it comes in equal amounts of badgering that I get in response. Welcome to the explanation of why I'm not OK with commenting at r/MensLib.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/01/20 03:50 PM
2

I was talking about r/AskReddit as a more realistic measure of the general populations' attitudes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates26/01/20 03:49 PM
15

The majority of the most upvoted non-feminist responses at the top of the thread give me hope that the tide is shifting in our favor, though. I think we need to start forgetting about the feminists and shifting our focus towards advocacy, like what NCFM does.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/20 05:07 PM
9

Because you obviously haven't been educated enough by our complicated system of quasi-religious apologetic arguments that neatly explain away all of the above-mentioned contradictions! You effing heretic. /s
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/20 05:04 PM
1

That was a good link.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates25/01/20 09:33 AM
1

"Progress is impossible" is not a very good and helpful attitude to make things better, where it is obvious that things can be made better: https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/what_can_we_expect_from_the_2020s_financial_times.pdf
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates24/01/20 05:06 AM
3

Men do hard labour jobs and always has because they're simply stronger, due to biology. Even their potential for maximun physical power is greater, so training above average women in strength had little incentive. This is not merely an arbitrary thing, but was and still is necessity. While your examples are true, and there are probably more serious and definitely less studied differences in cognition, I am not a fan of defining things in terms of gender essentialism, which I think is your positi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/20 08:46 PM
5

I see a lot of problems with the particulars of the plan, which you do a good job highlighting, that stem from warped quasi-religious thinking its grounded in, but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the idea of lessening the downsides of each gender role, since we can afford to do so, as an affluent and safe modern society. EDIT: Also, u/MaskOfMen, there is one way in which you are thoroughly correct: gender roles specialization existed as evolutionary adaptations to better survive in…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/20 02:54 PM
1

That's another curiously duplicious double-standard, yes.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/20 02:53 PM
1

That's closer to the opposite of where I stand, than to my position, — I think they have a lot to answer for, — but I'd much rather we focus on solutions than on the "make them pay, make everything burn" anger.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates23/01/20 11:26 AM
1

This is a very well-articulated position, thank you.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 10:25 PM
3

Let me summarize the fundamental differences in approach, as I see them: what I read on the sensitive masculinity values it as healthy and in need of appreciation, which the Western society in our era does not always provide, but sensitivity is not something that is to be shoved down peoples' throats, part of predisposition towards it is undeniably genetic, and it is situational, and complementary — the hegemonic masculinity is still valid, it comes with its own advantages and disadvantages, jus…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 10:11 PM
2

Gloria Steinem might have played a hand in popularizing it in the last century's America, and I understand your reluctance towards an idea being popularized by a movement as intellectually troubled as feminism, but she did not invent sensitive men, who are also masculine and should be recognized celebrated, any more than Newton "invented" gravity. EDIT: If there is a problem with conversation on gender being muddied by politics, that's a problem with intellectual culture, not with men.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 09:47 PM
2

Same as you would fight bad ideas with better speech, and not with censorship. EDIT: Lack of viewpoint diversity in academia, particularly in gender studies academia, would make it much more difficult in this case, though.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 09:42 PM
3

That's polarization for you. To be fair, both sides do it.
/r/MensRights22/01/20 09:41 PM
3

That's a good question, u/Oncefa2. On top of what everyone already said, I would like to see more compassionate media attention directed at the issues faced by men, and more academic discussion of men and masculinities that are not hopelessly muddied, problematized by the religious lens of feminist theory and the truth-distorting, outrage-generating demands of their political activism. It's extremely disappointing that right now, to an average person unacquainted with the conversation around fem…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 08:55 PM
2

If there was more of this, there would be fewer anti-feminists around.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 07:02 PM
1

I mostly agree with you on this: it's a valid idea, but it turns to poison once feminists start perverting it to justify political activism.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 05:41 PM
1

Come on, this is kinda like that "Hitler also brushed teeth" argument.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 05:35 PM
2

You are spot-on u/HashtagMenAreCash! The "multiple masculinities" bit seems to me the only thing that doesn't turn out to be deeply toxic in practice, that's endorsed by the folks like r/MensLib.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 05:34 PM
1

It doesn't look like the r/AskFeminists got your memo about r/MensLib not being a bunch of male feminists: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/er073h/how_can_i_platform_mens_rights_without/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates22/01/20 04:39 PM
8

I wonder what kind of a distorted view of reality these folks have, if seeing someone who "doesn't want to date psychos", or want to have Jordan Peterson as a dinner guest on the dating apps is a sign they are oppressed and threatened, and propaganda articles like these are a big part of one's media diet. EDIT: ETA last sentence.
/r/MensRights22/01/20 01:41 PM
2

I think you are right, and it sure seems they love to excuse the worst excesses of their religion, as we've seen in the thread with u/blueorange22_.
/r/MensRights22/01/20 01:36 PM
1

I remember a Canadian case where a woman called Nicole Ryan was caught on camera attempting to hire a hitman to kill her husband, admitting in the video that her husband wasn't abusive, and she was acquitted because she'd alleged he was an abuser, and the highest court ruled that she should go free because a retrial would be unfair! What are the details of this case? In a quick search, I wasn't able to find anything substantial, except the framing suggesting it was the man's fault.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/01/20 06:42 PM
1

The first quote is not from Ozy Frantz/Brennan, but from an unrelated site called ozy.com. You are right, quotes one and two are meant to steelman stuff for OP, while I came by third through sheer chance. EDIT: They are not supposed to be related — I didn't think the name of the site would be misleading. I'm not necessarily saying your conclusion is wrong, but your evidence is a bit weak. All I'm saying is, for all her willingness to acknowledge problems with engaging men's issues in feminism, "…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/01/20 07:03 AM
5

You are not wrong. To a sufficiently pious Christian the work of an Adversary is visible everywhere. But I wouldn't use that language to communicate to a non-believer.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates21/01/20 12:14 AM
5

"Patriarchy" was a name used from the Greeks to the 20th century in a continuous way. That would imply the analogy was truthful, which is not the case. It's not what I said. I said I was against justice and equality and in favour of prosperity and love. Sounds like another way of framing a shift from traditional survival-oriented to modern self-expression-oriented societies, on the level of values to me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 11:58 PM
2

Kinda vague, though, like "Satan".
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 11:44 PM
3

I seems like you are going the "patriarchy is basically anything we don't like about human society" route.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 11:28 PM
7

It is pretty surprising how seriously these petty issues were taken, yes. I guess the "everyday sexism" became the focus due to lack of more worthy, concrete goals.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 11:08 PM
4

It is not possible to dismantle the gender roles of women without dismantling simultaneously the gender roles of men. It is also possible to simultaneously to do so without reinforcing the downsides of the men's gender role and systematically opposing their own attempts at gender liberation. No, really, check the etymology behind it!! This is important, because if we don't understand that "patriarchy" was not a concept invented 50 years but 2000 years ago and was praised back then, then we canno…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 11:07 PM
6

I hope this strategy will achieve something that benefits men's issues as a whole, no matter how marginal, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 10:06 PM
13

I played with Barbie dolls as a kid as much as toy cars, I've had a good few therapeutic cries throughout my life, the majority of my platonic friends throughout my life have been women, and during a large part of my life I essentially never flirted with women unless I was 100% sure they were into me and the situation was 100% appropriate (which I never was, because she might just have been friendly and it would be objectifying and demeaning to accidentally girlfriendzone or fuckzone a woman). M…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 10:05 PM
8

It's funny how leftists like to talk so much about how words can shape reality, yet have a blind spot for this hatefulness in the verbiage of the feminist worldview.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 09:33 PM
1

I like how the video essentially re-tells the movie.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 09:31 PM
11

Menslib starts with the conclusion: men are privileged because we live in a Patriarchy and if it ever appears they aren't doing great that's their fault because of toxic masculinity and undeniably women actually have it worse. The solution is to apologize, check your privilege, attempt to be more feminine, and really focus on advancing women. I believe you should add why they do so, when you mention it — they want a community that has mainstream respectability and is palpable to the white-collar…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 09:00 PM
24

And this is the only solution they can realistically prescrible, alas.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 08:58 PM
7

Their head feminist attempted to, but I don't think he did a good job: Who makes up the society of people with the power to throw these penises, wallets, jobs, and corpses at a supposed enemy, OP? I digress. Plenty of other people have already pointed out that you're using a not terribly useful definition of "patriarchy" so I'll just do a little historical aside about the white feathers: it was definitely a shitty thing to do, but remember that was first wave feminism of a bunch of righteously p…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 08:57 PM
12

Welcome to LWMA, u/EnIdiot, and please enjoy your stay! We would be delighted to have you. I wanted to say, I think you are quite right in your analysis of feminism, and I wanted to know what you think of my current working hypothesis (also curious about your input, u/Melthengylf): I believe them when they say there was an essentially egalitarian impulse towards gender liberation in there somewhere. However, at some point, either by chance, or by emergent design, political goals seemed more quic…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 08:54 PM
5

EDIT: FUCK, they removed the post. Also, if you go into OP's post history you can see that they yeeted a lot of his comments defending his views. I laughted out loud at this part. EDIT: I mean, c'mon man, I wish I was able to come up with better satire — but reality is funnier than fiction sometimes. :)
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 08:24 PM
4

Uncharacteristically insightful r/MensLib OP surpirses everyone by actually advocating for men FTFY Oh, wait... The thread already got removed from 'slib due to "anti-feminist rhetoric" — normality restored, I thought I was in a different time-line for a second. :D
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 08:23 PM
3

Feminist thinker bell hooks memorably defines patriarchy as “a political-social system that insists that males are inherently dominating, superior to everything and everyone deemed weak, especially females, and endowed with the right to dominate and rule over the weak and to maintain that dominance.” When patriarchy functions effectively, men do not justify their “right to dominate”; they are “inherently dominating.” When patriarchy functions effectively, men do not lob insults at women; instead…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 07:01 PM
8

I can say this sub doesn't make feminists particular welcome, nor are interested in a two way street. There's too much aminocity and too little respect and steel-manning. But don't forget to keep simultaneously reminding everyone that you the r/MensLib mod team aren't feminists!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 06:44 PM
2

The problem is, see for yourself: https://www.reddit.com/user/Haloperidolol1
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 05:23 PM
1

OK; I'm glad that you had better luck that I did.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 05:15 PM
2

Just today I was talking to a feminist, I talked for a few hours, she was a core extremely orthodox one. I wasn't able for her to see male pain beyond oppression.... at least I was able to get her to understand at an intelectual level that there might maybe exist societal structures that cause pain besides oppression XD. I disagree, and I think you are missing the fact that sure this perception may not be deliberately malicious, it isn't a coincidence either, — it sure as hell seems like it's a …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 11:22 AM
1

That's great, point to me where I said that was a problem? You are implying this is a problem. Feminism for the 99%. You can at least engage with good faith here. Why do I have to engage with their vile radfem misandry in good faith? They are doing much worse than those whom they criticize on things I most care about: at least Sandberg isn't painting women as helpless victims all the time, and sees something they could do on an individual level to get what they want; shame she had to lie about s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 06:59 AM
1

Thanks.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 06:58 AM
5

That was a good comment that also stood out to me.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 06:49 AM
5

Some of them come here. Can't say my experiences were all that positive, though.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 01:07 AM
7

We should have dialogue with some of them, but probably not on their turf — they start to feel way too comfortable with being a bully. EDIT: I am not sure if this is correct, however, Removeddit says that it was the OP who removed the thread, and not the mods, so I'll put away the link.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 01:03 AM
2

I can't even begin to explain how the feminist movement has corrupted almost everything I once knew. Let me know if you need someone to talk to.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 12:57 AM
1

So what, I'm lying and part of a false flag as some of your subscribers say we are? You could start by qutting trying to pathologize our weariness of your subreddit's censorious approach.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 12:49 AM
3

It's not a purity test. It's showing that your "big tent" approach comes with some serious exceptions. So that's a purity test of whether I'm a leftist enough, gotcha. I gave you a very clear-cut point: I'm OK with mentioning Peterson favorably in this context, since he spoke about the "absolute necessity of fathers", and opposed the feminist villification of men, and his words reached millions. That counts for something in my book. How does the radfem 99%-something stuff you mentioned in any wa…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 12:31 AM
1

Please don't excuse it under the "human condition", when it's the worst I've ever seen in this generation with these people. EDIT: With significant exceptions for sample size of course, but sitll...
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates20/01/20 12:17 AM
2

Some IDW members' criticisms of feminism were good, and are helpful for men's issues advocacy. EDIT: And perhaps even more helpful that what you do. I don't understand why you decided to start talking about this: is this an ideological purity thing, an attempt to shift blame? EDIT: Anyways, you are getting distracted from my main point, which you haven't addressed: we are not unreasonably hostile to the 'slibbers, it's you who do things that are highly questionable from the MHRM point of view. E…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 11:51 PM
1

Are they here? In this subreddit? Because that what I'm talking about. And I'm not. More than this subreddit counts. Since you are going to continue reinforcing the religious parts of the feminist worldview as they apply to men through your half-hearted advocacy, and you should be prepred to eat the flak for it. Nothing wrong with it. Whoopie-doo. I'm not an academic. But I think books like Feminism for the 99% is doing more work within a Marxist framework then Jordan Peterson is. How is that ra…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 11:42 PM
3

Where am I Feminism? Where am I pathologizing men? Christ. You are pathologizing us by suggesting that our suspiciousness towards the bad faith of the feminist-identified contributors is entirealy a figment of our collective imaginations. But MensLib and me personally are elevated to the Status of some evil feminsit overlord is ridiculous. Hmmm, I wonder if your tireless efforts to uphold the feminist status quo in terminology, theory and language could have had anything to do about with that...…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 11:32 PM
2

But I can engage in /r\tuesday a conservative subreddit as a near close socialist and get more respect and charity than this sub, even when my comments result in the direct and purposeful intention of finding common ground and explaining straw men. Maybe you should ask yourself how we were treated by feminists up to this point, that could have lead to reasonable people to feel and act this way, instead of pathologizing us. People act so surprised in this subreddit when we do "something good for …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 10:54 PM
1

I think the term "antifeminist" is used just as a boogeyman at this point, as the ideas of the men's advocacy are not explicitly antifeminist. Mybe a better question would be: why is it that for feminists squashing and silencing any possible dissent is more important than compassion towards men?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 10:33 PM
1

I'll say it again, I'm not against religion on principle. I think the more sensible feminists like Camille Paglia are right to treat it with respect. It's when the faithful don't recognize that what they have is, in fact, a religion, that you start running into more problems and warped worldviews. I'm here if you want to talk about anything. EDIT: In this context, for me, "organized" means just that, organized to form communities and institutions, with formalized rules and rituals, and political…
/r/MensRights19/01/20 10:22 PM
2

That's a regrettable misunderstanding, but the untruthfulness of their mythologies shouldn't be my problem.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 10:20 PM
5

I can say this sub doesn't make feminists particular welcome, nor are interested in a two way street. There's too much aminocity and too little respect and steel-manning. The fact I can be harassed by users here and in my DMs as well as the r/feminism mod is effective. Should we? There aren't that many attempts at good faith discussion coming from the pro-feminist crowd, mostly they assume we are "misogynists" because we can criticize feminism. I'd beleive that we engage with Toxic Masculinity a…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 10:13 PM
10

Anyone who opposes them is a bigot, a hateful person or in mild cases, a troll. As they say. nothing ever happens or you asked for it. This approach of smearing good faith critics with a "misogynist" label is one of the things I despise most about their movement, that doesn't have any possible connection or justification to their noble ideals. I hate these people. Let's stay positive in this community — we can't allow their small-minded vitriol and hate to drive us towards the same.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 09:42 PM
1

I'd buy this explanation, if we were talking about casual sex, but not with LTRs.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/01/20 09:27 PM
1

It was probably a bad idea to go to a women's rights march with a MRA sign though. Why not, though, isn't feminism about equality for everyone? XD too bad. I know nothing will come out of it, but the speed at which they are running to get an adult to punish the other guy under manufactured pretenses says something profound about the victimhood culture. EDIT: But if you look at the childish tone which the feminist moderators take with Reddit staff, I think I needn't worry too much about their att…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 09:22 PM
2

And their small-mindedly hateful mods are now claiming that I'm "inciting a brigade" and trying to get me banned — I'm amazed at the dehumanization and vitriol of these so-called loving and compassionate feminists... EDIT: This ideologly really does something to their minds: the amount of bad faith engagement on their part is staggering.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 09:16 PM
3

In part, thanks to the feminists. Just look at this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/eqxk4i/so_i_went_to_the_womens_march_in_los_angeles/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 08:56 PM
2

And the people he was talking to in the r/AskFeminists were in the business of defending the full-timers being what they are.
/r/MensRights19/01/20 08:50 PM
1

The feminists gloating in the r/AskFeminists thread about how these speakers were "trolling" would have been up at arms and making some incredibly far-fetched conclusions about the MRM, if the genders of the "trolls" were reversed...
/r/MensRights19/01/20 08:48 PM
15

Sorry about all the shit you are getting at r/AskFeminists, u/blueorange22_: this is truly toxic and hateful, excusing that behaviour as "trolling". And I am thinking they do have some cognizance of how their ugliness looks to the general public: This kind of dishonest shit is why people look at feminism the way they do. And your reactions in this thread show that they are 100% right to do so. I got banned for it, but saying it to the face of their mod, well, their username, was worth it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 08:22 PM
0

Wut, wut?
/r/PurplePillDebate19/01/20 08:09 PM
3

Maybe... After highschool the less picky, judgemental, women move to other areas, big cities or something. Don't know. I think it's more than in high school social status and popularity is about things that are shallower, easier to accomplish for many: fewer people are thinking about how much you make and about what college you went to.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/01/20 04:41 PM
1

I don't know about that, — my experiences were quite different. ETA: What I meant to say is, my friends of varying body types who had adequate social skills, hobbies and personality were able to date, with various success, but still able. As a men's advocate, I truly hate saying that to another man, but maybe you need to take a critical look at yourself in this situation, and see what might be holding you back. P.S. Please don't use "Chad" in a non-ironic way.
/r/PurplePillDebate19/01/20 04:39 PM
4

I'm sorry you had these bad experiences, I can sympathized having experienced something similar, but your "dating economy" math doesn't add up on the population-wide level, since the LTRs aren't like casual sex: where do all these lumberjacks come from? It doesn't make sense unless in their 20s most men tend to lumberjack-up. EDIT: I guess with the "repeated, unstructured interaction" being the key for getting into new friendships, there might be something similar going on with romantic attachme…
/r/PurplePillDebate19/01/20 04:25 PM
4

I guess this is an example where I can agree with u/Melthengylf on that, there is maybe a function for r/MensLib after all, despite them being practically useless for actual men's advocacy — they can do something to shift the Overton's Window, to bring the men's issues into the spotlight, same as the actions here.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 04:19 PM
2

Sure, but I didn't think he was acting negatively?
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 04:14 PM
3

Sure, sure. But it helps psychologically.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 03:24 PM
2

A shame that people still assume you are a misogynistic anti-feminist whenever you bring up any sort of criticism of the organized political feminists up.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 12:20 PM
2

She explicitly mentioned that she didn't towards the end of the movie, but said she cared about both men's and women's issues.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 12:19 PM
2

It sure looks more bark than bite: important to remember when you feel a temptation to despair over the state of the men's issues in the wider world.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 12:07 PM
6

Welcome, u/thereslcjg2000! I'm curious of what you think about this, the author seemed to have similar experiences: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 12:03 PM
3

Thanks for putting yourself out there.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 11:45 AM
1

I think it's better to read for yourself: the language is quite accessible and they aren't that long.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 11:11 AM
19

This article is currently being used as evidence in a title ix lawsuit against the university over alleged discrimination against male students. Good on them!
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates19/01/20 07:36 AM
2

Nevermind that it's the Daily Mail, this article is good, if you are thinking about this issue: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483707/Only-men-geniuses--far-stupid-men-women.html EDIT: But contrast this with the popular wisdom: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-more-male-geniuses-than-females
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 09:38 PM
1

Bad bot.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 09:08 PM
1

Thanks bro. I am willing to talk to MRAs who genuinely want to know more about me, but I am not a fan of MRAs going after feminism right from the start and then gish galloping. Feminism isn’t perfect, and I know it’s a women-centered movement, but anti-feminism isn’t the answer. [...] Now, the decision to “yeet” some comments or lock the post wasn’t mine. Sure sounds like you were on-board with it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 09:06 PM
1

On the other hand feminists might appreciate that I'm distinguishing between different camps of feminism, something their more right-wing critics tend not to bother doing. I myself always appreciated their movement's love of nuance.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 08:17 PM
10

Please be careful.
/r/MensRights18/01/20 04:05 PM
2

And the occurrence of feminists who care about this issue seems to be worse than among the general population.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 03:50 PM
1

It's such an effing shame that instead of feminists like her we got the likes of Michael Kimmel who try to persuade us that the gender war is a figment of our imagination.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 03:33 PM
3

Thank you. God damn it, this woman is what we fucking need! Feminism violently expunging the most decent out of its movement is sadly the norm, as far as I can see. EDIT: I think I was able to pin-point what annoys me the most about feminism on a personal level, u/mtcapri. (This is probably not what does the most damage to men and society, but it sure is the part that gets under my skin...) When confronted with criticism, instead of acknowledging any problems in their movement, they double-down …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 03:18 PM
6

r/AskFeminists has a pinned link of feminist "help" for men that is laughably pathetic. It was reading that list and feeling the fury at how it was full of obvious lies and distorted, motivated reasoning was what made me think, "That's it, I'm an MRA."
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 01:55 PM
4

I'm pretty sure r/menslib have a list of links to things feminists supposedly said or did on men's issues. That's my problem with them: their "activism" in support for men usually ends in writing a lukewarm article. EDIT: Projects like this one exist, but usually gutter out soon due to lack of "market demand" for compassion: https://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/who-cares-about-mens-rights/ EDIT: Then again, Ozy soon went back to writing things like this, so maybe she's ab…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 01:51 PM
3

She was one of the very few feminists who actually cared about the equal rights an opportunities, a shame she wasn't more prominent. EDIT: Here's an article about her: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/the-now-president-who-became-a-mens-rights-activist/372742/
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates18/01/20 01:45 PM
2

A lot people who aren't very used to thinking on their own feel the need to conform with what the rest of the group they identify with does; for example, I was recently commenting on the r/bropill and I was amazed to how hostile, dismissive and insulting towards the men's issues the crowd there was, because they thought it was a right-wing stance, and thus, mocking it was a-okay.
/r/AntiFeminists17/01/20 03:41 AM
1

Oh, yeah. It's driven by herd mentality for sure.
/r/AntiFeminists17/01/20 03:14 AM
1

I'm sorry, what?
/r/AntiFeminists17/01/20 03:03 AM
1

Activists are feminists too, and I'm talking primarily about them, because they are those are who actually affect change, and the "function" of the rest of feminists overall seems to be funneling social and political power into their hands, so they have the resources to try and change things. EDIT: Phrasing.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates17/01/20 01:57 AM
1

If it's because of a smear campaign then I would argue that that's not a good faith change. But if it's organic then yeah for sure. I would argue that this bad faith change grew organically from the slanted way in which the feminist philosophy defines the world. I still think there's a bunch of people who think 'patrarchy' isn't a code phrase for 'all men suck'. Sure, these people exist. However, what is your per cent estimate out of the total number of activists, and what is their share in the …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/01/20 06:47 PM
1

I sometimes see comments on menslib of the type "I'm a feminist woman and this is a welcoming place to learn more about the issues men face." I think it's a highly censored sanitized version of male issues, mixed with male-blaming and guilt-tripping, but they are reaching people we can't reach. If it's moving feminists in the right direction, albeit not far enough, then maybe it's doing some good. I hope you are right. Unfortunately their censorship is a big part of what makes it more difficult …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/01/20 06:25 PM
1

I agree that the term Patriarchy has acquired some baggage, but back in the day, that's what the term meant. That's what always fascinated me about the pro-feminist arguments: is there a point, where according to your thinking, meaning-as-intended-by-those-who-coined-the-term gets legitimately replaced by the meaning-as-it-is-used-by-proponents-of-this-thing-today, or are you going to go using this argument, and trying to fight this battle of "these words don't have meaning that nearly everyone …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/01/20 06:22 PM
4

Thanks u/mtcapri, I'll take a look at it.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates16/01/20 06:18 PM
6

The alignment in this template makes me think these are two separate people.
/r/FeminismStopsWhen15/01/20 11:42 PM
2

Thanks.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 11:34 PM
1

If I were in fact here in bad faith then you'd have no chance of convincing me, because I wouldn't be listening to you. That's a very good point, and it will inform my next actions. Have a good day.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 06:11 PM
1

I toned down the language.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 05:55 PM
2

OK.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 05:47 PM
1

Fair enough, I'll rephrase.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 05:42 PM
2

Thanks for you input. I still try to downvote what I see as bad faith engagement, but upvote well-worded and civil disagreement, if it doesn't annoy me too much. EDIT: Please include the username of the person you are responding when adding a lot of details in a later edit, u/Egalitarianwhistle, so that they get pinged — I nearly missed everything after the first paragraph. And yes, I know and love the Sokal Squared thing. Maybe I shoud take a look at Douglas Murray.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 05:42 PM
1

This question is pointless as long as you insist on avoiding addressing the content of your opponents' comments, and instead focus on first spewing pro-feminist propaganda, and then wondering why does it annoy people in a men's advocacy space. EDIT1: My point is, I could be more civil, but I will not apologize as long as you remain focused on form, and not on essence; this is a worse obstacle than any way in which I could phrase my arguments. EDIT2: The "various feminisms" criticism-deflecting m…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 03:51 PM
1

Mate. If you don't like me reacting in this way, then maybe your points shouldn't have been sufficiently bad faith to warrant these reactions. I want you to put yourself in my position, when I've been nothing but as honest as I can and truly engaging in good-faith efforts to both understand your points and communicate my own, and read through that. No, you really, really didn't. Maybe you are sincere right now, and it wasn't a fault of your own, and it is something else influencing your thinking…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 11:17 AM
2

I think feminists have already done plenty of that. I don't see how the ERA would make it any easier for them. You are probably right that ERA specifically is not going to make things much worse, it's just going to give the other side too more justifications for launching their double standards. How would you rephrase it if you could? I'm a little distracted right now, and it's probably not possible to define in a short space of a constitutional amendment, — but if I somehow could, I would add s…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 11:04 AM
1

I will freely admit that I am very critical of anecdotes and have a clear preference for academic work, probably to a fault. Unless you also have a clear understanding of the biases present in academia, which is something I didn't see in your side of conversation, this makes dialogue nigh impossible. I hope you don't mean to frame your own responses to me as "polite" though. I try to be as civil as I can, but it is hard to do in the face of your staunch, essentially religious continuing refusal …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 10:33 AM
1

girlwritesfatwas I'm surprised to learn of that detail — I actually had a few normal interactions with that sockpuppet. I don't really know how to deal with him. I'd be happy for him to post here contributing his perspective. I think your approach as a mod is perfectly fine right now, and you are doing well. Of course, we know feminists do tend to interpret these things as justifying special protections for women, but the ERA would provide a solid legal foundation on which to challenge such misi…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 10:29 AM
1

As frustrating as I find it, I've run into this so many times with feminists it hardly surprises me anymore. I don't think he means to be approaching this topic in bad faith, I just think his framing of it in his own mind results in a bad faith approach. I think you are absolutely correct on this front. This has to do with the quasi-religious framing of their positions by feminists. What gets me most is that they act surprised and indignant when you try to confront them about it, no matter how p…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 10:08 AM
1

I think u/spumix is honest in his belief that he's doing his best, and really is frustrated, which is something I can sympathize with, — but the problem is, with these pro-feminist standards of what qualifies as supporting evidence for an good argument, anything that can be theoretically used to change his point of view or convince him have effectively been defined out of existence.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 09:37 AM
9

Good luck! Good on you for prioritizing self-care, and yes, you don't need to be active in an internet community to count as someone who really cares. EDIT: Rephrase.
/r/MensRights15/01/20 09:26 AM
2

Do you think I am actually lying to you, or would be willing to at least grant that I disagree with you in earnest? Fair enough, that's a good point. When taking a Slate Star Codex survey recently, in the part that has to do with my philosophical beliefs, I indicated choices which would have me admit that you probably believe your own statements. So no, you aren't lying [under this strict definition]. But there was enough in your approach that was based on misleading arguments, distorting your o…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 09:21 AM
3

I don't think you will ever see a generation of men who meet feminist standards, because feminist activism for women is built on criticizing men as a gender. And the goal-posts are always shifting, and the perpetuation of their organizations depends on a strong demographic of people with a worldview where everything is going to hell in a handbasket.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 08:29 AM
2

It's not the neoliberal part that is the problem — feminism remains just as much of a net harm on the world, and against men, if you remove all of the more reasonable moderate, less hateful liberal feminists from the equation.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 08:27 AM
3

The definition and use of this term by the myphopoetic men's movement was in not any way related, or consistent with how these words are used today to smear and denigrate men. As if my estimate of the good faith of your arguments was already too high, the way you draw this misleading, distracting parallel comes off as meaning to excuse and minimize the problem. EDIT: Typo, ETA.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 08:21 AM
3

I am treated with (in my opinion) an unfair level of aggression, rudeness and suspicion when people mistake me for a feminist online. By your own admission, you are a pro-feminist, who excuses, minimizes and normalizes the various hypocrisies and abuses your object of propaganda perpetuates against men — so be an adult and don't throw a hissy fit when people conversing with you hold you accountable. EDIT: This is backed up by an understanding of feminist history, where movements widely regarded …
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 08:14 AM
2

I sometimes get a bit defensive with the volume of accusations about my behaviour in this sub, which isn't ideal. You come here to propagate the "various feminisms" lie to sound off their propaganda at us, and then get mad people won't engage with you more in good faith. I find myself wondering if you are really that oblivious about how this comes off, as some people in STEM are, or if you are doing this on purpose.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 08:07 AM
2

Here is an analysis done by a research psychologist that finds bias in favor of studies "discovering" bias against women, which is what you say you wanted u/mtcapri to show you: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rabble-rouser/201906/scientific-bias-in-favor-studies-finding-gender-bias
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 08:05 AM
1

I think you've triggered him and made him delete his account yet again. I'm sorry. It's unkind to say, but I didn't notice, what was the guys name? I don't believe I responded to him any differently than I would have to anyone else. Is there something specifically wrong with my reply? (There indeed was a comment or two I made the last week that was a little more snarky than I would have preferred due to the unrelated stresses of life, but I don't see anything wrong with this one.) She specifical…
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 07:35 AM
1

I'm here in good faith and you're treating me like some propaganda robot. That's actually pretty hurtful. If you want to be treated with courtesy, maybe you could stop behaving in ways that are indistinguishable from those of a propaganda robot. You make it all about you, but an influx of people behaving like that into this community isn't lifting up my spirits, either.
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates15/01/20 01:25 AM
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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