Sexuality, Gender and Relationships: How to Get Men Involved in the Discussion.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-04-23T09:26:44+00:00

We need men to participate in dialog about sexuality, gender, and relationships. Until they do, we won't stop sexual violence, and there is a limit to how far the women's movement can go.

Because yes, stopping sexual violence requires men to change, because women never engage in or contribute to sexual violence amirite?

And of course, its all about the Women's Movement, huh? Masculism is only good as a means to Feminist ends... in and of itself it has no value!

In general, men haven't arrived at the discussion table (let alone collectively change their behavior).

Because yes, just like the Redstockings Manifesto said, it is men who have to change. MEN ARE THE PROBLEM! The onus is entirely on them. And of course their behavior has nothing to do with women, women can't possibly influence men...

The linked website strikes me as nothing more than Male Feminism. Yet again, the blame is placed on the men.

Now, in spite of that, the website makes some good suggestions.

1 Create conversations where it's clear that men are going to be honored

A good suggestion which I agree with.

4 Show men how to be supportive, not competitive

I agree, but the idea that women already know how to be supportive and men don't is completely false. Women are just as ruthlessly competitive with each other as men are, they just compete on different vectors and do so with less obvious methods. Not only that, but men can be supportive of each other... but some women tend to see male solidarity as a threat to them ("don't have your boys nights out! Think about US!!!"). Finally, inter-male competitiveness is often something which happens in response to women - trying to get women's attention and respect and love, for example, and women OFTEN exploit that. If we want to lessen inter-male competitiveness, women have to change, too.

5 Affirm, a hundred times over, that a man's interest in sex is perfectly valid and beautiful

Agreed entirely, and one part of that suggestion I really want to quote is this:

"We can't do anything for men's sexual empowerment while we secretly think that men are sleazy, oversexed, and dangerous. If you're supportive of women reclaiming the word 'slut' (and the whole culture of sex-positivity that goes with it), how ready are you to support men in reclaiming their 'sleaze'? Would you stand up against sleaze-shaming?"

7 Stop telling men that they need to be like someone else

I agree. On this, women have to be part of the solution.

We need to understand that men currently have very little self-worth, and that encouraging it isn't a bad thing; proud people don't do bad things to others. Part of being proud of being a man involves learning to speak up when bad things are being said about men, or when men are treated unfairly in the discourse around gender and sexuality. In the same way that we expect women to speak up when they are being treated unfairly, we need to get used to the idea that men are preparing to speak up against their ill-treatment too.

Agreed entirely.

9 Admit that there is a positive side to the objectification of women, and learn how to start sharing it with men. It's much easier to step into your sexual power when there is a positive cultural pressure supporting that shift.

Agreed. Being the object of desire can be a position of power.

However, at the very end of the article there is a statement I must disagree with:

Why is the onus on us, when this is not our responsibility?

Wrong. The gender system is as much the responsibility of women as it is of men. Individuals of either sex can enforce it, collaborate with it, or reject it. Women are as much a part of this system as men are. It is not just about changing men.

Overall the article had some good points. Honestly it got quite a bit right. However, it is still written from a gynocentric and women-as-hypoagent perspective: it pins responsibility for the system on men, makes everything about "changing them" and implicitly is all about changing men as a means to the benefit of women.

And this ultimately undermines the article's credibility, unfortunately.

HolySchmoly · 2014-04-23T09:58:02+00:00

Haven't read the article yet, but right off the bat why not pose it this way: how to get women involved in our discussion about what we have to offer as men? Read that as "we'll decide then we'll 'discuss' it with them to let them know what's up".

double-happiness · 2014-04-29T23:21:38+00:00

On a technical note, the grey text on dark grey background is seriously, seriously bad. When I turn back to reddit's off-white and muted colour scheme my eyes go bananas for a few seconds.

Title	Sexuality, Gender and Relationships: How to Get Men Involved in the Discussion.
Author	genderequality88
Upvotes	3
Comments	8
Date	April 23, 2014 8:33 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/23r58k/sexuality_gender_and_relationships_how_to_get_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/sexuality-gender-and-relationships-how-to-get-men.1001400 https://theredarchive.com/post/1001400

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